Text Size

Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

Evan Turner available

Talk Cavs hoops and other items from the NBA here.

Moderators: peeker643, swerb, pup, papacass

Evan Turner available

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Mon May 24, 2010 10:05 am

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... -no-2-pick

I know it's Chad Ford, so take it with a shaker of salt, but if this were true, the Cavs should consider it. Something like this is the only way to get either a true running mate for LeBron in here or get a headstart on the non-LeBron future(plus he'd sell tickets). Elton Brand's contract sucks but we're close to capped out for the next couple years anyway.
"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor
User avatar
Kingpin74
 
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:11 pm
Favorite Player: Mario Lemieux
Least Favorite Player: Dwight Howard

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Mon May 24, 2010 10:35 am

Do you really want to pay Elton Brand $51 million over the next 3 years?
Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB
User avatar
Larvell Blanks
 
Posts: 2575
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Medina, Ohio
Favorite Player: Foots Walker
Least Favorite Player: un named sources

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Ziner » Mon May 24, 2010 10:45 am

Larvell Blanks wrote:Do you really want to pay Elton Brand $51 million over the next 3 years?


Chump change for Gilbert if it convinces Lebron to stay. Not saying it will, but if it does the 51 million is irrelevant IMO.
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby fairvis » Mon May 24, 2010 11:47 am

Trade machine works with Elton Brand for Mo Williams and Delonte West. Probably would have to be Mo, Boobie, and Delonte for Brand and the first round pick unless we got Shaq or someone else to do a sign-and-trade.
User avatar
fairvis
 
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:21 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Favorite Player: Braxton Miller
Least Favorite Player: Joakim Noah

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon May 24, 2010 11:58 am

for Evan Turner?

I think I would, hell, he may even be a good backup plan if LeBron decides to not come back.

The real question is, can he play right away?
Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.


Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
User avatar
Triple-S
All-time leader in moral victories
 
Posts: 6380
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:26 pm
Location: Kent-Green, Ohio
Favorite Player: Yuengling
Least Favorite Player: Nati Light.

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby scott » Mon May 24, 2010 12:08 pm

Ziner wrote:
Larvell Blanks wrote:Do you really want to pay Elton Brand $51 million over the next 3 years?


Chump change for Gilbert if it convinces Lebron to stay. Not saying it will, but if it does the 51 million is irrelevant IMO.



This is what got us where we are. Quick fixes to make Bron happy. If he is going to stay here LBJ and the front office need to have an honest discussion and agree that they aren't trying to win it all next year at all costs. Play out the next year and a half and make smart move financially going forward.

Cavs are in salary cap hell and taking on 51 million terrible contract dollars is chasing bad money with bad.
User avatar
scott
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: New York
Favorite Player: Sabby Piscitelli
Least Favorite Player: Everyone Else

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Ziner » Mon May 24, 2010 12:34 pm

scott wrote:
Ziner wrote:
Larvell Blanks wrote:Do you really want to pay Elton Brand $51 million over the next 3 years?


Chump change for Gilbert if it convinces Lebron to stay. Not saying it will, but if it does the 51 million is irrelevant IMO.



This is what got us where we are. Quick fixes to make Bron happy. If he is going to stay here LBJ and the front office need to have an honest discussion and agree that they aren't trying to win it all next year at all costs. Play out the next year and a half and make smart move financially going forward.

Cavs are in salary cap hell and taking on 51 million terrible contract dollars is chasing bad money with bad.


First I disagree that acquiring Evan Turner is a "quick fix". Look I don't even know if it is possible, but I do know that Evan Turner would be young talent that could grow with Lebron and we don't have much of that right now.

I also would argue that the what you are arguing as being "quick fixes" are what got us to be a 60 win team. How do you know Shaq is not the best that we could get with Ben Wallace/Pavs expirings? Other than that what else is a quick fix? Mo Williams was obtained for nothing and at the time there were hopes he would be a legit number 2. Jamison was obtained for nothing but 1st round pick and 30 days of a washed up Z. (not to mention Gilbert can probably buy a better pick if he wants to open the check book). What were our other options besides Shaq/Mo/Jamison? Sit around and surround Lebron with 28th picks in the draft? You didnt want the Jamison trade? Sure he put us even more over the cap but it wasnt as if we were going to be able to go after Bosh or Amare in free agency. We were already going to be over.

Additionally you talk about cap hell, I would argue that if you have a max player you almost have to be over the cap in order to get pieces around them. Lebron is going to be making roughly 17-18 million with his next contract in the first year with a salary cap of 53-56 million you need to have an extreme amount of skill and luck with your front office in order to be able to contend while staying under the cap. Overall if Lebron stays I dont think it is reasonable to expect that we have cap flexibility, we either needed to make moves or clear cap space. We took the aggressive approach. Jamison's contract kinda sucks, but many expected him to be the final piece you have to make that move. Other than that the only really bad contract we have IMO is Boobie's, and it isnt as if it is crippling.
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby papacass » Mon May 24, 2010 12:54 pm

The major issue with drafting Evan Turner as a sidekick who could "grow" with LeBron is that LBJ is already 25 going on 26. It would take 3-4 years for Turner to reach his prime. By then, LBJ's next contract is close to expiring and he's nearing 30. He'll be on the downside of his own athletic prime.

A number of scribes, particularly nationally (ahem, Chad Ford), seem to be laboring under the pretense that LeBron has his whole career ahead of him, and that he needs a supporting cast of of 21-year-olds that he can grow with. If LeBron were to play until he's 35, his career is already about 40 percent over.

In my mind, the ideal sidekick for LBJ is also in his mid-20s, has already reached his prime and mastered the NBA game. Turner would be a great building block should LeBron leave, but as LeBron's sidekick, he would be a sidekick-in-training for quite a while. And all the time, LeBron is getting older.
User avatar
papacass
 
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:35 am
Location: Fairview Park, OH
Favorite Player: D. Miles jersey
Least Favorite Player: D. Stallworth jersey

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Mon May 24, 2010 12:59 pm

What would we trade to get that pick?

We don't have a 1st or 2nd rounder.
Cleveland is the city where we come from so run run
User avatar
Rat_Tail
Take Me Back To 2007
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:18 pm
Favorite Player: Pronk
Least Favorite Player: Marson

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Ziner » Mon May 24, 2010 1:09 pm

papacass wrote:The major issue with drafting Evan Turner as a sidekick who could "grow" with LeBron is that LBJ is already 25 going on 26. It would take 3-4 years for Turner to reach his prime. By then, LBJ's next contract is close to expiring and he's nearing 30. He'll be on the downside of his own athletic prime.

A number of scribes, particularly nationally (ahem, Chad Ford), seem to be laboring under the pretense that LeBron has his whole career ahead of him, and that he needs a supporting cast of of 21-year-olds that he can grow with. If LeBron were to play until he's 35, his career is already about 40 percent over.

In my mind, the ideal sidekick for LBJ is also in his mid-20s, has already reached his prime and mastered the NBA game. Turner would be a great building block should LeBron leave, but as LeBron's sidekick, he would be a sidekick-in-training for quite a while. And all the time, LeBron is getting older.


Agreed it isnt ideal as getting Kevin Durant, but if LeBron stays we have to look at the options in front of us. I fully admit I have no idea how legit this report is or our chances of being able to get it done. However, I see no way that we trade for a player who is in his mid 20's, has already reached his prime and mastered the NBA game. So since this is not an option we need to look at other options. Want to attempt to transition to getting younger and athletic or keep trading for vets?

Once again I have no idea how feasible this is, but we don't have a ton of options this summer to drastically improve this team. If this is legit, it is one way to do so.
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby pup » Mon May 24, 2010 1:12 pm

Um, isn't Turner a SF in the NBA?
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Mon May 24, 2010 1:15 pm

This is my main point too. Sure, getting a proven mid 20's star is ideal, but how many of them are available? Taking on a terrible contract to get a plum draft pick may be our only avenue to upgrade from the Mo/Shaq/Jamison discount types. Turner may need a year or so to ease in, but I think he'll be a borderline All Star by his 2nd year, he can play. And this is coming from a Michigan fan still recovering from his buzzer beater in March.
"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor
User avatar
Kingpin74
 
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:11 pm
Favorite Player: Mario Lemieux
Least Favorite Player: Dwight Howard

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Mon May 24, 2010 2:09 pm

papacass wrote:The major issue with drafting Evan Turner as a sidekick who could "grow" with LeBron is that LBJ is already 25 going on 26. It would take 3-4 years for Turner to reach his prime. By then, LBJ's next contract is close to expiring and he's nearing 30. He'll be on the downside of his own athletic prime.

A number of scribes, particularly nationally (ahem, Chad Ford), seem to be laboring under the pretense that LeBron has his whole career ahead of him, and that he needs a supporting cast of of 21-year-olds that he can grow with. If LeBron were to play until he's 35, his career is already about 40 percent over.

In my mind, the ideal sidekick for LBJ is also in his mid-20s, has already reached his prime and mastered the NBA game. Turner would be a great building block should LeBron leave, but as LeBron's sidekick, he would be a sidekick-in-training for quite a while. And all the time, LeBron is getting older.


SD:

You just made the case for Dwayne Wade , butt under what roof would you find both them Alha Dogs.

SoulDawg
SoulDawg74
 
Posts: 3103
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:36 pm

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby dmiles » Mon May 24, 2010 6:40 pm

Who wants to take a stab at how Turner's game will even evolve in the NBA.

Specifically I ask this because I am undecided.

Things that excited me about him:
- Control of the floor
- Awareness of space and passing lanes
- Ability to score tough around the hoop

Regarding that, there is a modest doubt in me that this translates to the NBA. Now what I like is that he basically found a way to own a defense at time through vision/athletic ability etc. Scoring bunnies near the cup is also not something to be discounted i.e. you have to have to the body to make that happen.

I just wonder how that will translate with guys like Dewey lurking the rim compared to the slugs trying to guard him in college (including the slugs not rotating). His effectiveness goes way down with a 6'10" defender who knows how to rotate nearby.

Still if you think about the many NBA stiffs who seemed as if they'd make it in the NBA and didn't have the game (Adam Morrison) one common theme is that the kid hit a lot of tough shots in college. Meaning Morrison worked his tail off moving around screens to get space for a shot and hit a lot of three pointers with guys draped all over him. This makes great drama for NCAA tournament, but there shouldn't be correlation to NBA success. So my point here is I actually think Turner's game might translate better than many of the other Wooden award guys because he can get to the cup and score over taller guys.

I fall on the side that says his game will translate to the NBA I just wanted to blurt out the minor doubt to see if anyone else can either ease my mind or say "no these are valid concerns".
On Twitter @DaBashers
User avatar
dmiles
 
Posts: 1110
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:36 am
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby CP » Mon May 24, 2010 6:46 pm

^^^ I tend to agree with this, and would expand on it a bit in that I think he's going to struggle for awhile before he starts to develop an understanding on how to adapt. How long he struggles I think depends on him and his willingness to work at it.
User avatar
CP
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Stow, Ohio
Favorite Player: Bernie Kosar
Least Favorite Player: Colt McCoy

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon May 24, 2010 9:37 pm

pup wrote:Um, isn't Turner a SF in the NBA?


I've been wondering this myself. Honestly I think he'd be a 2. He can get to the hoop can rebound and play D. His outside shooting isn't NBA 2 ready yet obviously, but i'd take him over West and Mo by miles right now. Dude can ball.

He also could teach LBJ a thing or two about what it means to be tough.
"Our name is Legion, for we are many."
User avatar
Cerebral_DownTime
Go f#%k yourself
 
Posts: 14422
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:31 am
Location: Galloway Ohio
Favorite Player: Fenrir
Least Favorite Player: Walt Flannigan's dog

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon May 24, 2010 9:41 pm

Shaq's already 24. He doesn't have time for an 18 year old to develop into a championship caliber player.
I know more about pizza than you. Much more in fact. - Cerebral_DownTime
User avatar
aoxo1
 
Posts: 2934
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:23 pm
Favorite Player: Hover Jetski
Least Favorite Player: Eric Wright

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby CP » Mon May 24, 2010 9:56 pm

aoxo1 wrote:Shaq's already 24. He doesn't have time for an 18 year old to develop into a championship caliber player.


Great context.
User avatar
CP
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Stow, Ohio
Favorite Player: Bernie Kosar
Least Favorite Player: Colt McCoy

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon May 24, 2010 10:15 pm

I just don't see the downside here, we've seen players like AV's and JJ's caliber suddenly seemed to really up their game around LeBron, and Turner is so much better at this point in his career than the aforementioned were.

And if he doesn't come back, at least you now have a legit young player you can start a rebuild around, following a massive salary dump.

Sure you can point out the salary cap hell, but at this point, you may as well pull out all the stops, because absolutely nothing is guaranteed at this point.
Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.


Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
User avatar
Triple-S
All-time leader in moral victories
 
Posts: 6380
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:26 pm
Location: Kent-Green, Ohio
Favorite Player: Yuengling
Least Favorite Player: Nati Light.

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby papacass » Tue May 25, 2010 9:54 am

CP wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:Shaq's already 24. He doesn't have time for an 18 year old to develop into a championship caliber player.


Great context.


Right. Except it's two different kinds of apples, if not apples and oranges. Shaq is the biggest player in history of the league and LeBron is a forward who relies on explosiveness. Shaq won his first title at 28, right at the height of his prime -- a prime that lasted a lot longer because Shaq was never going to lose his massive frame, which is his biggest weapon.

LeBron has a lot of size, but it's the fact that he's so powerful and quick with that size that makes him a great player. At 28 or 29, he might already be declining athletically. If not then, certainly within a year or two.

I believe that LeBron will not be the same player once he loses a step. I don't think he'll end up developing the finesse aspects of his game, such as post moves and jump shooting, enough to offset the loss of explosiveness that will begin to set in around 30. He hates playing the post, and he's a streak shooter at best.

And let's not sell Kobe short, either. Kobe is an all-time great. Even if Turner becomes a perennial all-star, the chances of him doing for LeBron what Kobe did for Shaq are kind of slim.
User avatar
papacass
 
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:35 am
Location: Fairview Park, OH
Favorite Player: D. Miles jersey
Least Favorite Player: D. Stallworth jersey

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue May 25, 2010 10:13 am

Yeah, but maybe he only needs to do what Pau Gasol did for Kobe.

I can buy all of your arguments, and they crossed my mind as well. I'm by no means saying Evan Turner is a lock for anything (I barely watch college ball, so I have no clue except he is apparently almost as good than John Wall). But this team has to find someone else who can initiate offense consistently (or find a coach who forces LeBron to stop with this nonsense). I don't know how they are going to do it. This is one potential path, even if not 100% ideal. Otherwise you are looking at the future of Cavs being determined (assuming the continued presence of #6) by JJ Hickson. How good he can be will determine when we exit.

If you think LeBron will never develop his post game, then he is in BIG trouble and really only has about 3 years left before there is a noticeable degradation in his performance. But for all the griping, LeBron plays out the post more than he has in the past, he sets up shop almost in a mid/high wing post tons of times too. He just doesn't get the credit for it because (a) it is not 50% as often as we would like (b) he doesn't seem to go to it when it makes sense, for instance when Ray Allen is guarding him for long stretches and (c) he passes a LOT more out of the post than the ever lauded Bean. Now, he may never develop the feel for the moves, as his footwork is still suspect and he looks confused down there (hmmm... just like he is still confused all these years later when teams sag the paint or go to a zone... maybe there is something to Herm's dissing his BBIQ?) or for the bunnies he so frustratingly misses... but I think he will realize, maybe a year too late, that he HAS to go down there. Comp for 30+ LBJ is, as always, Karl Malone with passing skills.
I know more about pizza than you. Much more in fact. - Cerebral_DownTime
User avatar
aoxo1
 
Posts: 2934
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:23 pm
Favorite Player: Hover Jetski
Least Favorite Player: Eric Wright

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby FUDU » Tue May 25, 2010 10:27 am

I'm with Cass in that I have always feared LeBron's prime will be a bit different than most think, do to his size and the mileage on his young body. Dude is huge right now, he isn't going to lose weight and might not even just maintain his weight as the years go by. Chances are best he gains a pound or 3 every year which will eventually nibble away at his quicks and even leaping ability. He will be the oldest 30 yr old to have ever played in the NBA make no mistake about that. Will his game have improved or evolved enough to compensate for that, who knows?

IMO he has a sure 4 years of the peak of his prime coming, beyond that it is a crap shoot.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13357
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue May 25, 2010 10:30 am

His athletic ability is already eroding.

FWIW he did look smaller to me this year than previous years. May just be that I expect a hulk.
I know more about pizza than you. Much more in fact. - Cerebral_DownTime
User avatar
aoxo1
 
Posts: 2934
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:23 pm
Favorite Player: Hover Jetski
Least Favorite Player: Eric Wright

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby FUDU » Tue May 25, 2010 10:44 am

I disagree that it is already eroding. Maybe his indecisive moments give that impression from time to time, but for my money he looks the same as 2 years ago athletically speaking.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13357
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Love child of shawn kemp » Tue May 25, 2010 11:00 am

[/quote]

I believe that LeBron will not be the same player once he loses a step. I don't think he'll end up developing the finesse aspects of his game, such as post moves and jump shooting, enough to offset the loss of explosiveness that will begin to set in around 30. He hates playing the post, and he's a streak shooter at best.(/quote]
If LeBron loses a step and gains a few pounds, he will turn into my dad. Hell, he already has two kids out of wedlock too. I live in Columbus and have seen alot of OSU games this past year. Evan Turner is decent but I really don't know about him being #2 in the draft. His major weakness is ball handling. i swear, I can dribble better than he does. Alot of OSU games turn into Evan Turner isolation, just like the CAVS. Turner dribbles out front, loses the handle, recovers, drives lane and either takes it to the rim or passes off.
User avatar
Love child of shawn kemp
 
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:37 am
Favorite Player: Corey KKKKKluber
Least Favorite Player: Domestic Violence

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue May 25, 2010 11:35 am

/\ /\
I agree with this. Turner in the NBA will need a PG to set him up. He's not going to come into the league as a ready-made scoring machine. He can slash and he has a nice intermediate game but he's not nearly good enough with the ball to create a lot of his own offense in the NBA based on the numerous times I watched him play. His time at PG will help him and for a guy 6'7" tall maybe his ball handling will be fine at the position he plays, but I'm not as high on Turner as others seem to be. Good complementary player IMO but not a dynamic, 'Build-Around Him' kind of player that you might expect as a #2 or #3 pick.

YMMV
"Great minds think alike. The opposite is also true."

"None of us is as dumb as all of us."


I'm on Twitter at http://twitter.com/peeker643
User avatar
peeker643
Duly Noted
 
Posts: 22771
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Smokey Rowe
Least Favorite Player: Dingle Stetson

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby CP » Tue May 25, 2010 11:37 am

papacass wrote:I believe that LeBron will not be the same player once he loses a step. I don't think he'll end up developing the finesse aspects of his game, such as post moves and jump shooting, enough to offset the loss of explosiveness that will begin to set in around 30. He hates playing the post, and he's a streak shooter at best.


I think this is selling James short. If you think of the player he was when he came into the league and where he is now, he's basically improved on at least one aspect of his game every summer by targeting the area and working on it. His jump shot is miles away from where it was and he has worked at other areas of his game.

I see no reason, based on his past history, that he won't develop that game in due time.
User avatar
CP
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Stow, Ohio
Favorite Player: Bernie Kosar
Least Favorite Player: Colt McCoy

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue May 25, 2010 12:00 pm

CP wrote:
papacass wrote:I believe that LeBron will not be the same player once he loses a step. I don't think he'll end up developing the finesse aspects of his game, such as post moves and jump shooting, enough to offset the loss of explosiveness that will begin to set in around 30. He hates playing the post, and he's a streak shooter at best.


I think this is selling James short. If you think of the player he was when he came into the league and where he is now, he's basically improved on at least one aspect of his game every summer by targeting the area and working on it. His jump shot is miles away from where it was and he has worked at other areas of his game.

I see no reason, based on his past history, that he won't develop that game in due time.

This is the biggest lie that has been perpetrated on casual NBA fans.

Unless you think that working on his jump shot every summer counts. Or that it has actually improved a great deal except from year 1 to 2.

His defense is better as well, but that is effort and experience, not countless hours in the gym during the summer.

The obvious areas to work on after long jumpers are some sort of mid range game (absent), post game (past infantile but just entering adolescent), and free throw shooting (just noise above where he was when he entered the association). Honestly, he has no bread and butter on offense besides driving the ball. His fall back is to jack up long jumpers that may or may not be 3 pointers.
I know more about pizza than you. Much more in fact. - Cerebral_DownTime
User avatar
aoxo1
 
Posts: 2934
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:23 pm
Favorite Player: Hover Jetski
Least Favorite Player: Eric Wright

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue May 25, 2010 12:00 pm

I don't know how Turner's game will translate to the NBA level either, but I do know a few things based on his college game:

#1: he handled the ball well enough, as a 2/3, to run OSU's offense. He'll never be mistaken for pre-playoffs lebron with his ball handling skills, but they're good enough right now as a 2.

#2: He's got length.

#3: he played about 95% of all available minutes at college and was still effective closing out games, which hints at aforementioned toughness.

So, he needs a PG to set him. So do most of the Cavs players.....Bassy, anyone? :hide:
Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.
User avatar
Gradysmanldy
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:58 pm
Favorite Player: Melts Parmageddon
Least Favorite Player: The East Coast media

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue May 25, 2010 12:41 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:I don't know how Turner's game will translate to the NBA level either, but I do know a few things based on his college game:

#1: he handled the ball well enough, as a 2/3, to run OSU's offense. He'll never be mistaken for pre-playoffs lebron with his ball handling skills, but they're good enough right now as a 2.

#2: He's got length.

#3: he played about 95% of all available minutes at college and was still effective closing out games, which hints at aforementioned toughness.

So, he needs a PG to set him. So do most of the Cavs players.....Bassy, anyone? :hide:



A lot of the comps for Turner are with Brandon Roye and Rip Hamilton given his size and his intermediate game.
Those people know way more than I do about Turner and his NBA prospects. I'm just having a tough time with those comps based on what I personally saw from him. And again, the fact he had the ability to play that point-forward position is a testament to him and shouldn't be a criticism. But I do think it exposed his ball handling skills as well as his relative lack of range from 20 feet or so. Guy's a scorer more so than a shooter for sure so he didn't need to sit out at the 3-pt line and throw darts and henever claimed to be a PG when he unselfishly took the role, but when I see him I just don't think perennial All Star/Dynamic NBA star.
"Great minds think alike. The opposite is also true."

"None of us is as dumb as all of us."


I'm on Twitter at http://twitter.com/peeker643
User avatar
peeker643
Duly Noted
 
Posts: 22771
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Smokey Rowe
Least Favorite Player: Dingle Stetson

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby JCoz » Tue May 25, 2010 12:48 pm

Where's all this needs to be set up talk coming from?

I think he does not need to be set up at all. I think he can get his own shot, and I also think some are selling his long range potential short -

But I still don't know if adding up my opinion = LBJ/Wade/Melo superstar.... worth the #2 and taking on Brands contract? Dunno...

Def. think he can play the 2 in the NBA though.

Peek, Roy and Rip? bit of a margin there as a player, no?

I actually don't think he compares well to either. Beyond actually having a midrange jumper, I see almost nothing in common with thier games, which are both dif. to begin with....

Not trying to make a mountain of a molehill here, I just think a midrange jumper is not enough common ground to even compare those three as similair players.
User avatar
JCoz
Donnie, you're out of your element
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:57 am
Favorite Player: Competency
Least Favorite Player: Gene Smith

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue May 25, 2010 1:10 pm

Looking at a lot of these Comps and those are the two guys most often mentioned. I ain't making it up. ;-) ;) :wink:

Just google Evan Turner NBA Comparisons for the links. I can't get the forums to accomodate a long post with quotes and its pissing me off.



Strengths: At 6-7 with a capable handle, apt passing ability and an improving stroke, Turner will be able to play both guard spots and even some small forward at the next level. Comparisons to Brandon Roy may be a little premature, but undoubtedly the similarities are there.
Weaknesses: While his stroke has improved, his NBA three still needs work and he's not the type of athlete generally drafted in the top two. Turner struggles at time attacking super-quick guards and doesn't have a great burst or first step. As a result, he is a bit turnover prone, sometimes relying too much on his spin move when he loses sight of the floor, and he still has yet to show off a consistent spot-up shooting stroke.
Like Wall, the main element of Turner's game that scouts question is his long distance shooting stroke. The mechanics are there -- high release, elbows in, strong base -- but the consistency isn't.


NBA Comparison: Brandon Roy

Strengths: Big combo guard with great versatility and a tremendous feel for the game ... Extremely smooth with the ball in his hands and has a bag of tricks offensively ... His handles are that of a point guards and he has a terrific ability of getting to the basket ... Has supreme confidence with the ball in his hands, excellent handle and a nasty crossover ... Slick mid-range game with the ability to change directions and get defenders off balance to create looks ... Good upperbody strength allows him to absorb contact and make plays at the rim ... Strong finisher. Very adept at finishing after contact. Also utilizes the glass effectively ... Has a nifty runner when he meets up with shot blockers in the paint ... Understands how to use his body to shield the ball from opponents ... Has a great pull up jumper and his ability to drive really sets up his ability to pull up for shots ... Utilizes the spin dribble to get by opponents effectively and into the paint ... Creative playmaker with the ability to find others for shots when his path to the basket gets cut off ... Solid vision and a good passer capable of finding the open man ... An above average athlete with good speed and long arms ... Makes a lot of impressive plays at the basket using excellent body control and creativity ... A solid shooter with good form ... Has a big wingspan (near 7-foot). His long arms allow him to disrupt passing lanes ... Draws a lot of fouls on drives due to his aggressiveness ... Runs down a lot of loose balls and makes plays based on sheer desire and hustle ... Plays with a high level of intensity at all times no matter the game situation ... A student of the game who studies past greats and appears to have a great understanding ... Solid free throw shooter at 79% ...

Weaknesses: Not a freak athlete, but above average by NBA standards with great length ... At times appears to be susceptible to being thrown off his game by physical play ... A better scorer than shooter, while Turner shot 44% from 3 as a sophomore it was on a low volume of shots ... Should look to improve his catch and shoot ability and expand his range and consistency from the perimeter ... His effectiveness going towards the basket with the ball probably keeps him from polishing his outside game, but with such efficiency driving it's hard to ask him to shoot more from the perimeter ... Struggled in the clutch in OSU's loss to Siena in the tournament ... At times can fall in love with the dribble and become too ball dependent, but he's very effective so that's nit picking to a degree ... His creativity can lead to being a little careless passing the ball ... Not great at setting defenders up off of screens and shooting spot up. He prefers to create a rhythm with the ball in his hands dribbling off screens or creating off isolation ...




What sets Turner apart from other prospects in this draft is his versatility. At 6’7”, he has the ideal frame for a shooting guard, someone that can move well without the ball and spot up for the mid-range game, a la Rip Hamilton.
"Great minds think alike. The opposite is also true."

"None of us is as dumb as all of us."


I'm on Twitter at http://twitter.com/peeker643
User avatar
peeker643
Duly Noted
 
Posts: 22771
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Smokey Rowe
Least Favorite Player: Dingle Stetson

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby JCoz » Tue May 25, 2010 1:20 pm

Yah but Turner ISN'T a spot mid range shooter. His abilities and versatility go well beyond a rip hamilton.

To me those players are much too different to compare. And I am NOT saying he will for sure be better, just saying that Rip is a really poor comparison. Almost nothing in common.

Truthfully, I haven't watched enough of Roy to compare him.
User avatar
JCoz
Donnie, you're out of your element
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:57 am
Favorite Player: Competency
Least Favorite Player: Gene Smith

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue May 25, 2010 1:40 pm

JCoz wrote:Yah but Turner ISN'T a spot mid range shooter. His abilities and versatility go well beyond a rip hamilton.

To me those players are much too different to compare. And I am NOT saying he will for sure be better, just saying that Rip is a really poor comparison. Almost nothing in common.

Truthfully, I haven't watched enough of Roy to compare him.



Quit i-yelling at me ( ;-) ;) :wink: ), I'm just providing the information. Rip has a very good mid-range game. That's indisputable. Turner had one at OSU too. There's the connection. I ain't saying it's not lazy or that it's dead on but there's your similarity.
"Great minds think alike. The opposite is also true."

"None of us is as dumb as all of us."


I'm on Twitter at http://twitter.com/peeker643
User avatar
peeker643
Duly Noted
 
Posts: 22771
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Smokey Rowe
Least Favorite Player: Dingle Stetson

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby JCoz » Tue May 25, 2010 3:19 pm

peeker643 wrote:
JCoz wrote:Yah but Turner ISN'T a spot mid range shooter. His abilities and versatility go well beyond a rip hamilton.

To me those players are much too different to compare. And I am NOT saying he will for sure be better, just saying that Rip is a really poor comparison. Almost nothing in common.

Truthfully, I haven't watched enough of Roy to compare him.



Quit i-yelling at me ( ;-) ;) :wink: ), I'm just providing the information. Rip has a very good mid-range game. That's indisputable. Turner had one at OSU too. There's the connection. I ain't saying it's not lazy or that it's dead on but there's your similarity.


I get you. I understand that the info is out there, and that you didn't create the comparison.

At this point my criticism is for whoever did make it.

Rip has been an excellent player, and I don't know that Turner will as good/better.

What I do know is that he will be a much DIFFERENT player, whoever made the comparison saw two people with mid-range game and made a poorly thought out comparison between two vastly different players with regards to style, at least IMO.
User avatar
JCoz
Donnie, you're out of your element
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:57 am
Favorite Player: Competency
Least Favorite Player: Gene Smith

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue May 25, 2010 3:19 pm

That's a pretty favorable comp. I think that the bottom line (imho) on Turner is that he'll develop a decent long range game and play well at the 2, creating for others (becoming a good comp for Roy) , or depend heavily on being able to finish and well and spot up from mid range well but not dominating the ball as frequently (ala Hamilton)

Either way, a Rip city in his prime (the most consistent scorer on that Detroit Dynasty, with the possible exception of Chauncy) or Roy (perennial all-star material thats a team first guy, prior to injury) are both guys you could build around.

Curry taught me last year that you can completely ignore a creative scorer who dominates at the college level because of a weakness. (Curry's size, Turners ball handling/long range shooting) and you can't base everything on it, either. (Reddick, Morrison)
Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.
User avatar
Gradysmanldy
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:58 pm
Favorite Player: Melts Parmageddon
Least Favorite Player: The East Coast media

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby statmasta » Tue May 25, 2010 3:32 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:I don't know how Turner's game will translate to the NBA level either, but I do know a few things based on his college game:

#1: he handled the ball well enough, as a 2/3, to run OSU's offense. He'll never be mistaken for pre-playoffs lebron with his ball handling skills, but they're good enough right now as a 2.

I don't know what you watched, but Evan Turner is a better ball handler than LeBron. Just in the sense that he's a better dribbler than LeBron. He's much better at keeping the ball on a string and keeping it away from defenders, and much better at not losing a dribble while spinning or dribbling it off his foot like LeBron does about once per quarter. The reason Turner turned it over so much is because he tried too often to dribble between 2-3 defenders, and because he forced passes in which he doesn't have the strength to get the zip on the ball needed to fit those passes through. NOT because he's not a good ball handler.
User avatar
statmasta
 
Posts: 1743
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:45 pm
Favorite Player: Sandy Alomar Jr.
Least Favorite Player: A.J. Pierzynski

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue May 25, 2010 4:06 pm

statmasta wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:I don't know how Turner's game will translate to the NBA level either, but I do know a few things based on his college game:

#1: he handled the ball well enough, as a 2/3, to run OSU's offense. He'll never be mistaken for pre-playoffs lebron with his ball handling skills, but they're good enough right now as a 2.

I don't know what you watched, but Evan Turner is a better ball handler than LeBron. Just in the sense that he's a better dribbler than LeBron. He's much better at keeping the ball on a string and keeping it away from defenders, and much better at not losing a dribble while spinning or dribbling it off his foot like LeBron does about once per quarter. The reason Turner turned it over so much is because he tried too often to dribble between 2-3 defenders, and because he forced passes in which he doesn't have the strength to get the zip on the ball needed to fit those passes through. NOT because he's not a good ball handler.


That sounds a lot like Lebron to me. If it's an excuse for Turner why isn't it for Lebron?
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7748
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby noles1 » Tue May 25, 2010 4:07 pm

Hate any comp to RIP. Doesn't make much sense at all. Also, of note, JJ Redick is a good NBA player, just want to pass that along as I saw him seemingly referenced otherwise. Morrison is not, that's fair.

As for the comp, Roy I can see but that's a ceiling in my opinion. For what I saw from them both at the college level my takeaway was Roy was a better shooter. (not looked at the numbers) Turner's floor is Corey Brewer, who I thought could be effective in the league but has basically been blah. His more realistic comp at this point is someone like Stephen Jackson's game, imo.

Under the right system and environment Turner needs to be a 3/4 option early on so that he can see the value in developing the other areas of his game. He should not be put in a position to play PG's although he is the type of player that could guard the bigger PG's in the league.
Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle
User avatar
noles1
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:32 pm
Location: Clarion, PA
Favorite Player: Jason Kipnis
Least Favorite Player: Mark May's Parents

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue May 25, 2010 4:44 pm

I wasn't bashing Reddick, fwiw. It just took his game longer to materialize at the NBA level as he wasn't the lights out shooter coming into the league they expected him to be. I have a lot of respect for his game at the NBA level.

I also wasn't bashing Turner's ball handling; as a 2/3, he's got very good handles. As a primary option on offense, the dreaded "Point-forward" Lebron or Tyreke comparisons, he needs some work. Maybe.
Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.
User avatar
Gradysmanldy
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:58 pm
Favorite Player: Melts Parmageddon
Least Favorite Player: The East Coast media

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby statmasta » Tue May 25, 2010 6:28 pm

Motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:I don't know how Turner's game will translate to the NBA level either, but I do know a few things based on his college game:

#1: he handled the ball well enough, as a 2/3, to run OSU's offense. He'll never be mistaken for pre-playoffs lebron with his ball handling skills, but they're good enough right now as a 2.

I don't know what you watched, but Evan Turner is a better ball handler than LeBron. Just in the sense that he's a better dribbler than LeBron. He's much better at keeping the ball on a string and keeping it away from defenders, and much better at not losing a dribble while spinning or dribbling it off his foot like LeBron does about once per quarter. The reason Turner turned it over so much is because he tried too often to dribble between 2-3 defenders, and because he forced passes in which he doesn't have the strength to get the zip on the ball needed to fit those passes through. NOT because he's not a good ball handler.


That sounds a lot like Lebron to me. If it's an excuse for Turner why isn't it for Lebron?

When did I say it's an excuse? I'm just telling you the reason why he turned it over, and am merely saying it's not because of a lack of ball handling skills. I think he's as good of a ball handler as he could be. He's superb in that aspect.
User avatar
statmasta
 
Posts: 1743
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:45 pm
Favorite Player: Sandy Alomar Jr.
Least Favorite Player: A.J. Pierzynski

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby statmasta » Tue May 25, 2010 6:34 pm

noles1 wrote:Hate any comp to RIP. Doesn't make much sense at all.

Agreed. Rip's strictly an off-the-ball player who creates shots for himself and nobody else. Turner needs the ball in his hands and creates shots for everybody else.

I don't even understand the Brandon Roy comparisons. Roy's better from distance, better at the line, he's stronger, shorter, not nearly as aggressive on the boards, less of a distributor, less aggressive on defense, not nearly as long, etc. I could go on. The Roy comparison just doesn't make sense to me.

I think Turner's a lot like Paul Pierce. 6'7", plays strong, isn't very athletic but somehow still gets wherever he wants to on the court, isn't a point guard but can handle the ball and create for others when he has to, excellent mid-range game, both are excellent instinctive defenders. The only differences are Pierce is a better distance shooter. And Turner may be a more aggressive rebounder (though Pierce did have a season in which he averaged 7.3 rpg and consistently averaged >6.5 in his prime).
User avatar
statmasta
 
Posts: 1743
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:45 pm
Favorite Player: Sandy Alomar Jr.
Least Favorite Player: A.J. Pierzynski

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue May 25, 2010 7:49 pm

Saw this today where Windy mentions anything is possible.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf ... rt_of.html

Gives more cred to the Ford report, and shows Gilbert is willing to keep trying.
"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."
User avatar
Orenthal
 
Posts: 4182
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: The Midd Heights
Favorite Player: Dan Gilbert
Least Favorite Player: Blacks, Gays, Poor

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby TBigz » Tue May 25, 2010 8:07 pm

Evan Turner would be a impact from day one like a young Kobe or TMac. Hes 6'7 and has the ability to shoot the jumper/rebound/and fade away. Shooting can be learned Kobes rookie year he was mediocre but he was flashy b/c he was good in a lot of other aspects. My dream would be for Turner to 1 up Lebron and become the future of the franchise at SG. I like Lebron, but I can only handle so much of his prima donna attitude.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryant watched Evan Turner’s performance in Ohio State’s double-overtime victory over Illinois in the Big Ten tournament, and that was all he needed to see.

“He seemed like the best player in the country to me,” Bryant said of Turner. “…He looked like he has all the tools. I think Wall is a great player, but I like Turner.”

Turner, a 6-foot-7 swingman, entered the NCAA tournament averaging 20.3 points, 9.2 rebounds and 5.9 assists. Bryant likened him to Portland Trail Blazers’ All-Star guard Brandon Roy(notes).

“He can shoot, can handle, can go left, smooth, doesn’t rush anything,” Bryant said. “He has a good pace to him.”

from -> http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/kobe-endors ... r-1353297/

also -> http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=107117

I am sold on Evan Turner as next Cavs all-star 110%

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVEj--pU8Is&feature=related
Last edited by TBigz on Tue May 25, 2010 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TBigz
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:42 am
Favorite Player: Josh Cribbs
Least Favorite Player: Ben Rothlisberger

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby TBigz » Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Larvell Blanks wrote:Do you really want to pay Elton Brand $51 million over the next 3 years?


For the next Kobe? Yes!!
TBigz
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:42 am
Favorite Player: Josh Cribbs
Least Favorite Player: Ben Rothlisberger

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed May 26, 2010 11:50 am

TBigz wrote:
Larvell Blanks wrote:Do you really want to pay Elton Brand $51 million over the next 3 years?


For the next Kobe? Yes!!


Don't you think that dubbing Turner the next Kobe is setting the bar a little high? Not that Turner won't be good in the NBA, but I think expecting one of the top 5-10 players of all time is a little unrealistic.
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7748
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Wed May 26, 2010 1:46 pm

Motherscratcher wrote:
TBigz wrote:
Larvell Blanks wrote:Do you really want to pay Elton Brand $51 million over the next 3 years?


For the next Kobe? Yes!!


Don't you think that dubbing Turner the next Kobe is setting the bar a little high? Not that Turner won't be good in the NBA, but I think expecting one of the top 5-10 players of all time is a little unrealistic.


You're spot on here,. If we get our expectations too high, Jim Brown will scold us once again.

Turner=John Salmons

that should take the pressure off. (whew)
Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB
User avatar
Larvell Blanks
 
Posts: 2575
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Medina, Ohio
Favorite Player: Foots Walker
Least Favorite Player: un named sources

Re: Evan Turner available

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 26, 2010 8:06 pm

TBigz has to be eye's carefully thought out alias and master plan. Nothing could be this on point.
"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."
User avatar
Orenthal
 
Posts: 4182
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: The Midd Heights
Favorite Player: Dan Gilbert
Least Favorite Player: Blacks, Gays, Poor


Return to Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ClevelandFanInNewYork and 2 guests

Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: ClevelandFanInNewYork and 2 guests