Text Size

Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

The cruel myth of medicority

Talk Cavs hoops and other items from the NBA here.

Moderators: peeker643, swerb, pup, papacass

The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby jb » Mon May 17, 2010 4:53 pm

I keep reading / hearing projections and pseculation of what we will be with Bron gone, and HC candidate talk.

PLesae stop.

If Bron leaves, just blow this whole thing up heaven high and hell deep. I recall when Brad's back degenerated, Hot rod became "a heat" and Price's body broke down, how they tried to keep it going with Phills, Mills, and Hill and Fratello. We wasted a half a decade trying to be the little engine that couldn't, scrapping for 7th and 8th seeds and mining for Chas Oakley's infamous "fools' gold".

If Bron leaves, you have to have to have the fire sale to end all fire sales. get what you can for the various piece's parts of role plyers, wait for Jamo to retire, and bring you out some Bassy, the African Elgin Baylor, and Chaka Khan. I don't wanna see any NBA talent on the floor. I want Jackie Moon to coach Jamario Moon.

If I get the bull crap about a plan to hold on post-bron with this group and try to get the 8th seed or low lotto probability, I'm gonna hurl all overthe screen.

A really good reason to divest and go nucular asap is that the tickets sales are so good for next year, and between now and 7/1 they could even go crass with a "show Bron we want him here sell out the RS" ticket sales campaign. This would at least allow the org to weather one season financially, and maybe only have to take a bath in red in for 2 - 3 more seasons before we might bounce back.

lastly, I know the constraints Ferry worked under, but I remain unconvinced he is able to be the guy to build a team. In aome ways, I see him as similar to Phil savage in his maddening ability to go "second-best solution" that defies a coherent plan.. Rather than have any sort of pan and philosophy, this team just cherry poicked who was considered to be available talent to support Bron as best they could. This may be worthy of another thread.

But my point is I might want to see a proven, veteran GM come in here, or at least a Holmgren-type to help him out.

But don't try to maintain any trejectory when Bron leaves. It would be utterly foolish.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby Orenthal » Mon May 17, 2010 5:04 pm

I agree only if it is sold correctly. Gilbert is already on record that he will continue to spend money. Whether that is just to show LeBron we are still willing is yet to be told. My mind will be made up when I see how much Gilbert is willing to spend, what deals are to be had, and what coaches are available.

100% agree that there must be a plan. If the plan is do the second best as Bron leaves, even with the criteria I listed above, just stop. Only spend money if you have that plan in place, and only add pieces to the plan that function within it. No reason to think we will continue to win 50+ games if LeBron leaves, so educate the fans that can, and let them know we are doing this thing right.

Then again isn't what you describe above the Shapiro plan? Minus the baseball economics of course, which is huge.
"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."
User avatar
Orenthal
 
Posts: 4182
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: The Midd Heights
Favorite Player: Dan Gilbert
Least Favorite Player: Blacks, Gays, Poor

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby FUDU » Mon May 17, 2010 5:06 pm

Would you be alright with a HC/GM?
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13356
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby jb » Mon May 17, 2010 5:19 pm

FUDU wrote:Would you be alright with a HC/GM?



How about GM and minority owner and his name rhymes with "down" ? ;-)
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby FUDU » Mon May 17, 2010 5:24 pm

jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:Would you be alright with a HC/GM?



How about GM and minority owner and his name rhymes with "down" ? ;-)
I'm just sayin, really would you be cool with such a plan by Gilbert, as long as said HC was top flight?

Sounds to me you just want A plan.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13356
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby Doc » Mon May 17, 2010 5:25 pm

jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:Would you be alright with a HC/GM?



How about GM and minority owner and his name rhymes with "down" ? ;-)


Mike Brown? :hide:
Doc
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:42 pm
Favorite Player: Matthew Dellavedova
Least Favorite Player: Chris Bosh

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby jb » Mon May 17, 2010 5:25 pm

Orenthal wrote:Then again isn't what you describe above the Shapiro plan? Minus the baseball economics of course, which is huge.


Not exactly, because this one isn't based on economics. It is based on the realities of the Association.

You ahe these options:

- suck real hard so you can land a transcendant talent in picks one, two, or three...

- get really, really lucky with a team that has a logjam and makes a bad decision on who to keep...

- draft very well for just-below-super star star talent

Or you can do what the lake show did and luck into a team with a retarded GM and get Kobe and Pau, but you need some frozen envelope shit for that I'm convinced.

What won't work is to keep the crap we have now and sign Joe Johnson as a replacement and sputter as the Pacers northeast.

Purge immediately.

Suck hard.

Draft wisely, develop, and maintain cap space.

Asess needs and spend wisely to cmplete the puzzle.

That's the plan I want to see. becase it works to build a true contender and nothing else does.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby Orenthal » Mon May 17, 2010 5:37 pm

Are there any guys in this free agent class you would consider signing, while at the same time blowing up the rest of the team?

Someone like Amar'e?

Others that look like they might be something to look at, but to my limited knowledge would not totally break the bank, or make you a winner.

Darko, Ike Diogu (look at his last couple games), David Lee, and Joel Przybilla.
Last edited by Orenthal on Mon May 17, 2010 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."
User avatar
Orenthal
 
Posts: 4182
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: The Midd Heights
Favorite Player: Dan Gilbert
Least Favorite Player: Blacks, Gays, Poor

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby jb » Mon May 17, 2010 5:48 pm

Orenthal wrote:Are there any guys in this free agent class you would consider signing, while at the same time blowing up the rest of the team?

Someone like Amar'e?



They wouldn't come to Cleveland.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby Orenthal » Mon May 17, 2010 5:50 pm

jb wrote:
Orenthal wrote:Are there any guys in this free agent class you would consider signing, while at the same time blowing up the rest of the team?

Someone like Amar'e?



They wouldn't come to Cleveland.


got'cha, but check out Ike Diogu, he might be someone worth signing, that wouldn't blow up your plan in terms of wins or $$$. Something like Boozer b4 Bron.
"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."
User avatar
Orenthal
 
Posts: 4182
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: The Midd Heights
Favorite Player: Dan Gilbert
Least Favorite Player: Blacks, Gays, Poor

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Mon May 17, 2010 7:35 pm

jb wrote:If Bron leaves, you have to have to have the fire sale to end all fire sales. get what you can for the various piece's parts of role plyers, wait for Jamo to retire, and bring you out some Bassy, the African Elgin Baylor, and Chaka Khan. I don't wanna see any NBA talent on the floor. I want Jackie Moon to coach Jamario Moon.


One vote in favor here.

lastly, I know the constraints Ferry worked under, but I remain unconvinced he is able to be the guy to build a team. In aome ways, I see him as similar to Phil savage in his maddening ability to go "second-best solution" that defies a coherent plan.. Rather than have any sort of pan and philosophy, this team just cherry poicked who was considered to be available talent to support Bron as best they could. This may be worthy of another thread.


I think its worthy too. I'd vote Ferry a B, his drafts have been solid value, he's been highway robbery on trades, but he couldn't land That One Guy - either Shuttlesworth as a FA or Amare this past February - though I'm not even sure if either could kick Bron's ass once Rondo got into high gear. I just don't fault him for the philosophy being 'make Bron happy at all costs' since that's coming from even higher than him.

But my point is I might want to see a proven, veteran GM come in here, or at least a Holmgren-type to help him out.


Larry Brown's hella old, and he'll never stick around long enough to see any plans to fruition. Unless something blows up and Pop or Danny Ainge are available, I go with the bird in the hand.
"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT
User avatar
Madre Hill, Superstar
Eternal Optimist
 
Posts: 4656
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:06 am
Location: Parma, OH
Favorite Player: The Playa
Least Favorite Player: The Game

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby papacass » Mon May 17, 2010 7:56 pm

jb wrote:
Orenthal wrote:Are there any guys in this free agent class you would consider signing, while at the same time blowing up the rest of the team?

Someone like Amar'e?



They wouldn't come to Cleveland.


They can't come to Cleveland. The Cavs have cap hold $$$ coming out the wazoo. Even if they renounced Shaq, it wouldn't come close to getting them under the tax threshold, let alone the cap.

Trades are the only way this roster gets altered this summer. And it's not going to be an extreme makeover. You're starting Moon or AP at SF next year if LeBron leaves.
User avatar
papacass
 
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:35 am
Location: Fairview Park, OH
Favorite Player: D. Miles jersey
Least Favorite Player: D. Stallworth jersey

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby daddywags » Mon May 17, 2010 8:22 pm

I'm with JB here on not trying to limp into an 8th seed in the playoffs (if LBJ leaves, of course). Bite the bullet and live with a couple 15-20 win seasons. If you can continue to develop JJ and add a bought draft pick this year and a top 3 pick next year you could start to re-energize the fanbase. The worst thing you could do is use your mid-level exceptions or ending contracts to add veterans on longer term contracts and try to win 40 games.

I disagree on Ferry, though. I think he's a smart young GM who would do a good job if released from his LeBron shackles.
daddywags
 
Posts: 1462
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby jb » Mon May 17, 2010 8:57 pm

Doc wrote:
jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:Would you be alright with a HC/GM?



How about GM and minority owner and his name rhymes with "down" ? ;-)


Mike Brown? :hide:



Harry Clown?
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby jb » Mon May 17, 2010 8:59 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
Larry Brown's hella old, and he'll never stick around long enough to see any plans to fruition.



Good.


Anything over a 4 year plan = a Cavs' move AFAIC.

YMMV.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby daddywags » Mon May 17, 2010 10:43 pm

I don't get the infatuation with Larry Brown. Dude's gonna be 70 years old when the next NBA season starts (Lenny freaking Wilkins is only 3 years older than that); he's been an NBA head coach for 34 years and he has exactly ONE title to show for it. He's barely over .500 as a post-season coach and he tends to piss off pretty much every uber-talented player he coaches (including one LeBron James in the 2004 Olympics).

And JB, you've got me confused now. Above you said we'd have to suck for some time to get high draft picks before we could compete. Now you're saying if we're not championship-worthy in four years we're gone? I'm not sayin' it has to take longer than four years, but if "the plan" is to be really bad to get really good it easily could take longer than that, couldn't it?
daddywags
 
Posts: 1462
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Mon May 17, 2010 11:06 pm

daddywags wrote:I'm not sayin' it has to take longer than four years, but if "the plan" is to be really bad to get really good it easily could take longer than that, couldn't it?

The Zombie Sonics just finished year three of their rebuild and I gotta think they're at least two years away from being championship viable.
"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT
User avatar
Madre Hill, Superstar
Eternal Optimist
 
Posts: 4656
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:06 am
Location: Parma, OH
Favorite Player: The Playa
Least Favorite Player: The Game

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby dmiles » Tue May 18, 2010 1:41 am

Good points JB and I doubt anyone wants to rehash those years. (admitting to checking USA Today when I could in the military to see what Ty Hill's RB numbers were). Obviously being stuck in the middle is a killer, but depending who you hire, they are not going to want to lose, so getting a John Lucas type is an absolute must. In any case, as we've seen incompetence can ruin these years. (diop, wags etc.)

Executing the plan requires hiring a tool as coach. Even a Hubie Brown type can will enough victories to keep you at the 9-10 pick every year. Blow it up yes, but damn I hope they get someone who can analyze talent. While Ferry has been decent with late picks I think plucking out transcendent talent from the 1-2-3 spot is likely a whole different ball of wax.
On Twitter @DaBashers
User avatar
dmiles
 
Posts: 1110
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:36 am
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby jb » Tue May 18, 2010 8:22 am

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
daddywags wrote:I'm not sayin' it has to take longer than four years, but if "the plan" is to be really bad to get really good it easily could take longer than that, couldn't it?

The Zombie Sonics just finished year three of their rebuild and I gotta think they're at least two years away from being championship viable.



Let me clarify.

4 years to get the talent core and give the market / fans hope and a reason to come to the Q again. Then it will take time to simmer and season the yutes, and maybe add a role FA or three. You're not winning a title in a 4 year rebuild. You aren't even in position completely.

But you need to be in position to be in position; i.e. have your Durant & Westbrook and playing the Lakers tough.

Trying to bump along with mediocre talent just prolongs this inevitability by a decade or more, as it did here.

Sure, it will take a shitload of luck that your year brings another Bron and not a Bogut, and you have the sense not to take Oden over Durant, but in our market in the Association it is the only way.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue May 18, 2010 8:48 am

I'm not sure the current owner is willing to dump all the talent and suffer through a couple of 15 win seasons in hopes that the ping pong balls yield another LBJ.
Prosecutor
Plutonian Outliers
 
Posts: 2887
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 11:59 am

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue May 18, 2010 8:53 am

I'm with JB here, but....

It's been mentioned in a couple threads that OKC is "the model," when, that's not really the reality. Kevin Durant isn't just a first pick in the draft. As a matter of fact there's been nothing quite like him, pretty much ever. You might have the very first pick in the draft 10 straight years and get a guy that good. If Durant gets taken first, OKC isn't the model, and again, the reality is, you are much more likely to get someone between the levels of Bogut and Oden (below what you would expect from that pick) than at a Durant level (which happens somewhere close to never)

Point being, whichever way you prefer, it's going to be a long, long road to get in sight of the trophy. 40 years and counting....

So, again, I'm not going to argue with those who want to send the King packin', not here to change opinions, just understand the franchise is going to fall back into insignifigance for years to come.

Unless you're into bankin' on miracles.
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6577
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby jb » Tue May 18, 2010 9:09 am

leadpipe wrote:I'm with JB here, but....

It's been mentioned in a couple threads that OKC is "the model," when, that's not really the reality. Kevin Durant isn't just a first pick in the draft. As a matter of fact there's been nothing quite like him, pretty much ever. You might have the very first pick in the draft 10 straight years and get a guy that good. If Durant gets taken first, OKC isn't the model, and again, the reality is, you are much more likely to get someone between the levels of Bogut and Oden (below what you would expect from that pick) than at a Durant level (which happens somewhere close to never)

Point being, whichever way you prefer, it's going to be a long, long road to get in sight of the trophy. 40 years and counting....

So, again, I'm not going to argue with those who want to send the King packin', not here to change opinions, just understand the franchise is going to fall back into insignifigance for years to come.

Unless you're into bankin' on miracles.



Like I wrote Piper, gonna take alot of luck.

But make no mistake, we're not landing on Plymouh Rock anymore. After July 1st Playmouth Rock is gonna land on us.

So which if these road forks do we take to contend again? I think the answer is obvious as history shows.

History also shows avoid the center as building block illusion like herpies. Whe you get the chance, go pure BPA every damn time.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby daddywags » Tue May 18, 2010 10:43 am

JB I agree with your clarification. And, for the record, I don't think anybody here is talking about running LeBron out of town. We're talking about what to do if he's gone.
daddywags
 
Posts: 1462
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:22 pm

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue May 18, 2010 6:27 pm

jb wrote:4 years to get the talent core and give the market / fans hope and a reason to come to the Q again. Then it will take time to simmer and season the yutes, and maybe add a role FA or three. You're not winning a title in a 4 year rebuild. You aren't even in position completely.

But you need to be in position to be in position; i.e. have your Durant & Westbrook and playing the Lakers tough.


Seeing it that way, totally concur.
"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT
User avatar
Madre Hill, Superstar
Eternal Optimist
 
Posts: 4656
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:06 am
Location: Parma, OH
Favorite Player: The Playa
Least Favorite Player: The Game

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby FUDU » Tue May 18, 2010 8:29 pm

I understand what you're saying JB, but I am not nearly as anxious or donfident in going that route. For one, regardless of owning one of the top 3 lootery picks it is still a crap shoot/long shot at landing a top notch championship caliper difference maker. IIRC Lead made that point up thread. Not to mention the formula for winning in this league, two stars or 1 and a couple really really good cast members.

Plus let's look at what we've seen in terms of some of the leagues best, in recent years and all time, a Nash, a Kidd and even a Stockton and a Malone, they didn't win it all. The list is long of all the stud players and stud lottery picks that have never won the title.

I'd much rather have the most dangerous player in the game and try to piece together a winner (albeit do it a bit better for short and long term) and know we will always be close than taking what would be less than a 50/50 chance at sucking and landing a guy that might not make us suck.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13356
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby jb » Wed May 19, 2010 10:22 am

FUDU wrote:I'd much rather have the most dangerous player in the game and try to piece together a winner (albeit do it a bit better for short and long term) and know we will always be close than taking what would be less than a 50/50 chance at sucking and landing a guy that might not make us suck.


Of course.

But get it thru that think dome a yers, son. That isn't a "choice". The sooner you accept the Bron Era is over, the sooner you can move on. It's done. Now I concur you can't move until after he signs if you are Gilbert and things are 100% certain, but once that happens, when it happens, then I am talking about the very real choice facing the cavs' franchise.

Do you dick around and sputter in the 7th and 8th playoff slots, maybe 4th if you sign Joe Johnson and overachieve and try to be the Bron Zombie Cavs, and take a 1st round exit for the next 3 to 4 seasons (whoo hoo!) , or beyond if DF does a great job? Or do you tank ASAP and try to get the NEXT most dangerous player who is somewhere in the 10th or 11th grade right now as we speak and aspire to be a bona fide contender, not a sham.

Gangsta or wagsta, that's the choice facing the cavs.

All other choices are Brons.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 19, 2010 4:55 pm

Isn't it just as possible you continue to suck after bottoming out? That you do not have luck, or only have mild hits that cause you to top out in the same position had you just tried to continue winning?
"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."
User avatar
Orenthal
 
Posts: 4182
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: The Midd Heights
Favorite Player: Dan Gilbert
Least Favorite Player: Blacks, Gays, Poor

Re: The cruel myth of medicority

Unread postby jb » Wed May 19, 2010 5:08 pm

Orenthal wrote:Isn't it just as possible you continue to suck after bottoming out? That you do not have luck, or only have mild hits that cause you to top out in the same position had you just tried to continue winning?



Yes.

But you will never truely contend without sucking if you stay in mediocrity.

Step 3 is not assured on any timetable. But you can't get to step 3 at all if you stay mired in step one.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward


Return to Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest