Next Year's Cavs

[Cerebral_DownTime]

So just get me another guy that can elevate JJ and AV into what look to be competent guys. I'm sure there has to be another premier player or five who'd love to come here and play from November through March.

Sign me up.

Not gonna happen unless we do a sign and trade of LBJ. If we don't resign LeBron (or sign and trade) then we are looking at a 25 win team. We have assembled this roster to play off of LeBron, not without him. We'll have a top 5 pick next season.

Swerb- Hook me up with a sarcasm emoticon. I'll attach it to my sig line so folks get the idea.

And it depresses me that ajunior didn't try and talk me out of the strong beam and rope scenario.

Well the rope and beam scenario was just unrealistic since you own guns.

[ajunior148]

So just get me another guy that can elevate JJ and AV into what look to be competent guys. I'm sure there has to be another premier player or five who'd love to come here and play from November through March.

Sign me up.

Not gonna happen unless we do a sign and trade of LBJ. If we don't resign LeBron (or sign and trade) then we are looking at a 25 win team. We have assembled this roster to play off of LeBron, not without him. We'll have a top 5 pick next season.

Swerb- Hook me up with a sarcasm emoticon. I'll attach it to my sig line so folks get the idea.

And it depresses me that ajunior didn't try and talk me out of the strong beam and rope scenario.

Damn it, I skimmed your post and missed the opening part. I'm an idiot...

[peeker643]

So just get me another guy that can elevate JJ and AV into what look to be competent guys. I'm sure there has to be another premier player or five who'd love to come here and play from November through March.

Sign me up.

Not gonna happen unless we do a sign and trade of LBJ. If we don't resign LeBron (or sign and trade) then we are looking at a 25 win team. We have assembled this roster to play off of LeBron, not without him. We'll have a top 5 pick next season.

Swerb- Hook me up with a sarcasm emoticon. I'll attach it to my sig line so folks get the idea.

And it depresses me that ajunior didn't try and talk me out of the strong beam and rope scenario.

Damn it, I skimmed your post and missed the opening part. I'm an idiot...

No worries man. We've all been a bit preoccupied the last week or so.

[Orenthal]

I'm going to be the guy claiming this roster isn't crap, so be ready to flame away when I really have time to start defending this take.

[Prosecutor]

Given the choice of playing with Rose, Noah, Deng, Heinrich, et al and playing with the guys the Cavs have now, I don't think it will take LeBron long to pack his bags. I really doubt the extra salary to stay in Cleveland will mean much. He already has more money than God and can probably make up the difference with his cut of all those #6 Bulls jerseys they'll sell.

I'm pretty sure we're screwed.

I don't feel too bad about it, though. Looking back at the Celtics series, they played exceptionally well. IMO, LeBron is the only Cav that could start for that team. Rondo is better than Mo, Allen beats AP, Garnett over Jamison, and Perkins and Shaq are probably a wash, although I'd take Perkins myself. Nothing wrong with Sheed coming off the bench to hit 3's or Baby or Tony Allen, either.

The only way the Cavs prevail is for LeBron to go 40/12/12 four times, and that wasn't going to happen given the state of his elbow. Like the Chones injury in the Miracle of Richfield year, it wasn't meant to be.

I thought the Shaq injury was a tough break because it robbed Roker of six weeks to figure out what combinations work best with Shaq and Jamo. The Celtics have had the same starting five for three years. The Cavs put their starting five on the floor together for the first time in the Chicago series. It makes a difference.

[ajunior148]

Given the choice of playing with Rose, Noah, Deng, Heinrich, et al and playing with the guys the Cavs have now, I don't think it will take LeBron long to pack his bags. I really doubt the extra salary to stay in Cleveland will mean much. He already has more money than God and can probably make up the difference with his cut of all those #6 Bulls jerseys they'll sell.

I'm pretty sure we're screwed.

The only thing in our favor regarding Chicago is they'll have just about no depth if they sign LBJ. They'll go into next season with

PG Rose
SG Kirk H
SF LBJ
PF Taj Gibson
C Noah

Bench - Deng and James Johnson

That's it, and I believe they won't have the MLE because that only goes to teams without cap space to start the off season.

I could be wrong on some of the above, but I believe that's the gist of it.

[FUDU]

Question for the few of you who keep up with this, if LeBron stays can we get/afford Tony Parker?

[ajunior148]

He's due $13.5 mill next season and then he's a FA. It'll depend on what they want, but you don't usually give up a guy that talented with 1 year left unless you are getting another good player back. Our best asset is Gilbert's willingness to spend, and Ginobli is the only long contract on their books.

Maybe it would work if they wanted another defender inside and asked for Andy, JJ, and $3 mill. But I'm not certain that would be smart for either team.

[Prosecutor]

Given the choice of playing with Rose, Noah, Deng, Heinrich, et al and playing with the guys the Cavs have now, I don't think it will take LeBron long to pack his bags. I really doubt the extra salary to stay in Cleveland will mean much. He already has more money than God and can probably make up the difference with his cut of all those #6 Bulls jerseys they'll sell.

I'm pretty sure we're screwed.

The only thing in our favor regarding Chicago is they'll have just about no depth if they sign LBJ. They'll go into next season with

PG Rose
SG Kirk H
SF LBJ
PF Taj Gibson
C Noah

Bench - Deng and James Johnson

That's it, and I believe they won't have the MLE because that only goes to teams without cap space to start the off season.

I could be wrong on some of the above, but I believe that's the gist of it.

True, not much depth there. But what a great young nucleus in Rose, Noah, and Taj Gibson along with veterans in their prime like Deng and Heinrich. Even Flip Murray is still a decent backup at age 30.

I don't know how any team could defend Rose and LeBron at the same time, especially with Noah crashing the boards and Heinrich or Deng spotting up. I was impressed by the rookie Gibson during the Cavs series, too.

I don't see how the Cavs can win a Championship in the next couple of years, even if LeBron stays. They don't have the supporting cast to get by the Magic and I don't think they have the financial flexibility to improve it. They won't be able to move Mo and Jamison's contracts. If they dump Shaq and Z will they have the wherewithall to add a significant free agent even if LBJ stays? Or will they just be able to get another Moon, Powe, or AP to throw on the pile of role players?

In retrospect it looks like they screwed themselves by picking up Jamison. I was all for it at the time, though.

[daddywags]

I don't see how the Cavs can win a Championship in the next couple of years, even if LeBron stays.

There will be plenty of time for historical analysis of the last seven years later this summer. However, when that happens I think the constant notion that we must win a championship "in the next couple of years" will be diagnosed as the disease that was contracted in the summer of 2003 and which eventually killed any chance we had to build a consistent winner around LeBron James. (I'm not intending this as a swipe at you, Prosecutor. Just using your post as a jumping off point for my thought.)

It took all of 24 games into the LBJ era before we started making trades to try to win a few extra games. We were 6-18 when we made the Ricky Davis-for-Eric Williams trade and we went 29-29 the rest of that season. Had we stayed on the 6-18 pace we would have been right there with Orlando for the number one pick in the 2004 draft. People point to Oklahoma City as a template for building smart. They won only 43 games in the first two years after drafting Kevin Durant. That yielded them picks 4 and 3 in the next two drafts. What was so bad about that?

[FUDU]

I don't see how the Cavs can win a Championship in the next couple of years, even if LeBron stays. They don't have the supporting cast to get by the Magic

I'm not happy camper right now but I must ask if we are going to talk about our current roster that we do it with the correct perspective. OJ is interested in defending this roster, so I will attempt to jump start that discussion and side with him for now.

This roster was considered just fine all season long by most everyone, as Ajunior reminded us yesterday. This is where the correct perspective comes into play, we have to view this roster as a SUPPORTING cast for LeBron James. The LeBron James we knew before game 4, the LeBron James that we were very accustomed to, the one that showed up every game in this regular season and showed up in every playoff game prior to this last series. It is simply disingenuous to view this roster any other way b/c that is how this roster was put in place, with the notion that we HAVE LeBron James not the promise of an 18yo LeBron James, the 25yo old LeBron James that can own an entire game anytime he chooses. The LeBron James that took the steps to significantly improve a portion of his game each and every off season. The LeBron James that single handedly ran through the EC in 2007.

To win in the NBA playoffs you need a roster that includes guys to fill specific roles and you need depth, that is exactly how this roster was put together. However if you do not HAVE LeBron James this roster does not work in nearly the same fashion is was constructed to. We did not HAVE LeBron James in the latter games of this series.

2-12 on this roster didn't play well as a whole throughout the Bulls series either, quite a few guys had moments, others had none. Guess what, it all worked though b/c LeBron was LeBron. It all starts with him, and if the situation calls for it he can pick up the rest of the guys and reignite them.

The problem in our hindsight as fans and the media is that it is easier to put all this on a roster full of guys that wouldn't start for the rest of the playoff teams than it is to objectively view the situation, which requires putting the microscope on LeBron James inability to be LeBron James for whatever reason.

[Prosecutor]

I don't see how the Cavs can win a Championship in the next couple of years, even if LeBron stays.

There will be plenty of time for historical analysis of the last seven years later this summer. However, when that happens I think the constant notion that we must win a championship "in the next couple of years" will be diagnosed as the disease that was contracted in the summer of 2003 and which eventually killed any chance we had to build a consistent winner around LeBron James. (I'm not intending this as a swipe at you, Prosecutor. Just using your post as a jumping off point for my thought.)

It took all of 24 games into the LBJ era before we started making trades to try to win a few extra games. We were 6-18 when we made the Ricky Davis-for-Eric Williams trade and we went 29-29 the rest of that season. Had we stayed on the 6-18 pace we would have been right there with Orlando for the number one pick in the 2004 draft. People point to Oklahoma City as a template for building smart. They won only 43 games in the first two years after drafting Kevin Durant. That yielded them picks 4 and 3 in the next two drafts. What was so bad about that?

I agree with your points, daddy, but what I'm saying is that I don't believe LeBron would sign a five-year extension with the idea that we're going to dump Shaq, Z, and AP now and Jamison next year to clear cap space to try and make another run in three years. He paid his dues and wants to win now. I think the Bulls could win a title next year if they add LeBron to the team we saw two weeks ago. I don't think the Cavs can win a title next year even if they have everybody back. I don't think LeBron believes it either.

[Prosecutor]

I don't see how the Cavs can win a Championship in the next couple of years, even if LeBron stays. They don't have the supporting cast to get by the Magic

I'm not happy camper right now but I must ask if we are going to talk about our current roster that we do it with the correct perspective. OJ is interested in defending this roster, so I will attempt to jump start that discussion and side with him for now.

This roster was considered just fine all season long by most everyone, as Ajunior reminded us yesterday. This is where the correct perspective comes into play, we have to view this roster as a SUPPORTING cast for LeBron James. The LeBron James we knew before game 4, the LeBron James that we were very accustomed to, the one that showed up every game in this regular season and showed up in every playoff game prior to this last series. It is simply disingenuous to view this roster any other way b/c that is how this roster was put in place, with the notion that we HAVE LeBron James not the promise of an 18yo LeBron James, the 25yo old LeBron James that can own an entire game anytime he chooses. The LeBron James that took the steps to significantly improve a portion of his game each and every off season. The LeBron James that single handedly ran through the EC in 2007.

To win in the NBA playoffs you need a roster that includes guys to fill specific roles and you need depth, that is exactly how this roster was put together. However if you do not HAVE LeBron James this roster does not work in nearly the same fashion is was constructed to. We did not HAVE LeBron James in the latter games of this series.

2-12 on this roster didn't play well as a whole throughout the Bulls series either, quite a few guys had moments, others had none. Guess what, it all worked though b/c LeBron was LeBron. It all starts with him, and if the situation calls for it he can pick up the rest of the guys and reignite them.

The problem in our hindsight as fans and the media is that it is easier to put all this on a roster full of guys that wouldn't start for the rest of the playoff teams than it is to objectively view the situation, which requires putting the microscope on LeBron James inability to be LeBron James for whatever reason.

I completely agree. We'll never know if this team would have won the title if Shaq had not been injured for seven weeks right before the playoffs and LeBron was completely healthy. You're right in that the team was built with role players and depth to support LeBron. And more specifically, to beat the Magic.

I'm not convinced that you need "depth" to win a Championship. Depth means if Garnett is kicking Jamison's ass you can bring in Hickson and Garnett will kick his ass, too. Or you can have Mo, West, and AP taking turns chasing Rondo around to no avail. It doesn't help to have a strong bench if your starters are getting annihilated.

The Bulls won all those Championships because of Jordan and Pippen, not because of their depth. I suspect LeBron will want to play on a team with another star, not a bunch of role players. I hope I'm wrong.

[waborat]

In retrospect it looks like they screwed themselves by picking up Jamison. I was all for it at the time, though.

Yes, KG schooled Jamo every night in this past series...

But if they "screwed" themselves by getting a character guy who pretty much averaged a DD when Shaq was outta the lineup, then I'm pretty sure both Ferry & Gilbert would be pleased to go through gallons of K-Y and lipstick

[FUDU]

I completely agree. We'll never know if this team would have won the title if Shaq had not been injured for seven weeks right before the playoffs and LeBron was completely healthy. You're right in that the team was built with role players and depth to support LeBron. And more specifically, to beat the Magic.

I'm not convinced that you need "depth" to win a Championship. Depth means if Garnett is kicking Jamison's ass you can bring in Hickson and Garnett will kick his ass, too. Or you can have Mo, West, and AP taking turns chasing Rondo around to no avail. It doesn't help to have a strong bench if your starters are getting annihilated.

The Bulls won all those Championships because of Jordan and Pippen, not because of their depth. I suspect LeBron will want to play on a team with another star, not a bunch of role players. I hope I'm wrong.

I think you miss read my post. My point was that LeBron was not LeBron (I'm not saying it was an injury, not going to say the elbow was 100% either b/c nobody knows). I don't feel Shaq's time on IR had anything to do with our playoff demise. You still need a bench and IMO you are off on the Bulls bench, they had a bench. 10 deep? Eh, but 8 deep, and their bench had guys that were talented at their respective skill set.

[Prosecutor]

FUDU, I agree that LeBron was not LeBron, and if he was they probably win this series. Maybe they go all the way, maybe not.

The question is - what does LeBron think? If he thinks this team would have won it all if his elbow was OK, then maybe he comes back for another shot with the same cast. If he doesn't believe in this team, then he's gone. My guess is that he's wondering what it would be like to play with another superstar instead of a group of fairly talented but flawed role players. Will he pass up that opportunity?

[Orenthal]

Removed salary spreadsheet from this post, updated further down...

[Prosecutor]

From Windy's post mortem:

"It was compounded by the fact that O'Neal didn't return until the start of the playoffs, which had him in the starting lineup with Antawn Jamison for the first time ever and pushed a player who started 73 games in J.J. Hickson out of the rotation. Stuff like that doesn't just happen and everything is OK, there's damage from those types of changes....

Not all of it is [Brown's] fault. O'Neal is a liability he tried to cover up all year but ultimately failed. Williams is a liability Brown tried to hide but couldn't. And Jamison on Garnett is a no-win that Brown tried to stop with a series of bizarre Band-aids that came off as desperate. None of it worked. The defensive coach's defense let him down. He's probably going to be fired because of it, among other things."

I agree with Windhorst that Shaq's injury was a real issue. If Shaq were healthy for those seven weeks Rokes could have experimented with different combinations and had the team better prepared for the playoffs. Would they have beaten Boston? Probably not. Like Windhorst said, there were two many matchup problems to try and paper over, and the only way to do that was if LeBron dominated.

That's why I say depth is overrated. Sure, you need a bench, but if Mo, AP, and Jamison are getting beat every which way, then the bench doesn't really matter.

[Orenthal]

btw when I feel up to it, my rational for defending the roster will be that our current guys display differnt tendencies/skill sets when asked to support LeBron then when w/o LeBron. This will of course be a mix of subjective and objective as most of the roster is transplanted.

Roker was always a reactionary. I would assume this was because defense was his supposed specialty, and by its nature defense is a reaction. He wasn't done any favors by the guys put on the roster, but I think his lack of imagination on offense, and the ability to exploit anything on that end of the floor other then LeBron only made the situation worse...

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

The problem in our hindsight as fans and the media is that it is easier to put all this on a roster full of guys that wouldn't start for the rest of the playoff teams than it is to objectively view the situation, which requires putting the microscope on LeBron James inability to be LeBron James for whatever reason.

Bingo. We've been waiting on three years for Robin(s) to develop when what we really needed was someone to shoot Batman's parents.

[Orenthal]

The problem in our hindsight as fans and the media is that it is easier to put all this on a roster full of guys that wouldn't start for the rest of the playoff teams than it is to objectively view the situation, which requires putting the microscope on LeBron James inability to be LeBron James for whatever reason.

Bingo. We've been waiting on three years for Robin(s) to develop when what we really needed was someone to shoot Batman's parents.

That is awesome...

[FUDU]

Nice Doug, now OJ can you get off your ass and put up your thoughts on the roster, I rather interested.

[Orenthal]

I'm pretty lazy, and am going to throw out some stats from guys when they were on other teams and such, I am going to try and defend the roster from the 20-25 win people. In a perfect world I would go the Presti route, but with the addition of Gilberts $$$ to perhaps accelerate the plan. Don't know if that will happen.

One thing I am sure of, my attitude towards Delonte West has gone 180. If you cannot rely on a guy, he is useless, which we obviously saw in this years playoffs.

Edited to add:
In doing a bit more research I have found that Delonte West is a team option for 2010/2011. I would assume the Cavaliers do not pick that up. The guy is beyond useless at this point, just took me longer then it should have to realize an immature bi-polar guy cannot be counted on...

Looks like the Cavaliers will have about 44 million in salary committed. I figure pick up Powe's team option (under 1 million), but renounce Shaq, don't pick up the option on West, and do not give J.Williams a qualifying offer. They will be about 12 million under the cap. With 9 players under contract.

Of those players the only one I see the Cavaliers even thinking about is Shaq to a smaller deal early in free agency, but the odds on that are pretty minimal.

[Prosecutor]

Thanks, OJ. Great work.

I don't see any centers on that roster, unless you count Hickson and AV as centers. Actually, they both played center when Shaq was hurt and Z was in limbo and the team did all right. But they won't get past the Magic with JJ/AV at center.

What about Danny Green?

[Orenthal]

Danny Green was not added because I believe his deal was not guaranteed. The lack of an NBA center is concerning, but only if you are trying to win. Many here want to attempt to pull of the Presti plan, but part of me fears that we pull off the Bulls plan post Jordon. The one where you pick high in the draft and flub it for nearly 15 years. Presti's mix of luck and skill will be hard to match.

[daddywags]

OJ - Are you sure about West's team option? The site I usually use - Hoopshype - shows him as money owed for 2010-11, neither team nor player option. (It does show Powe as a team option, though.) I did a search for West's contract terms and couldn't find anything concrete, but I did not find anything mentioning team option. I'd actually be very happy to know it's a team option, but I'm skeptical at this point.

[Spin]

If they dump Shaq and Z will they have the wherewithall to add a significant free agent even if LBJ stays?

From what I understand, Z came back at the league minimum, pro-rated for however many weeks were left. $300,000 maybe? Shaq's salary was almost all above the cap. So dumping those two really doesn't buy you any cap space.

[aoxo1]

Maybe Delonte will go to jail and it doesn't matter.

[Orenthal]

I originally started with Hoopshype's information, and as you say it shows him as signed in 2010/2011. However when I started looking deeper into the amount of money we would have available I stumbled into a few articles claiming West was a team option. This is one of those articles.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3584268

[daddywags]

I originally started with Hoopshype's information, and as you say it shows him as signed in 2010/2011. However when I started looking deeper into the amount of money we would have available I stumbled into a few articles claiming West was a team option. This is one of those articles.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3584268

Thanks OJ, thanks great to hear since I don't think he'll be back. I thought his worth was down to an ending contract, but a $4.6 million contract with only $500K guaranteed is really valuable this summer. Heck, we might be able to put together a deal for, say, Chris Paul, that saves New Orleans $7.5+ million this year and more than $12 million next year.

[jb]

What hole did spin creep out of?

I think he's a troll who lives under the Y Bridge eatin' Billy goats.

[Spin]

very funny. Except I've never lived in Akron...

[Orenthal]

I can't remember what JB called the guy in another thread, but here is something on Christian Eyenga.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Christian-Eyenga-5493/

http://www.draftexpress.com/rankings/NBA-Rights-Held/

Not too inspiring, but take it for what its worth...

[Orenthal]

Chaka Kaun, nothing much there but his Euro stats.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Sasha-Kaun-601/

Avery Bradley, have seen him going as high as 12, but also read he may be in the 20's.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/avery-bradley

Just throwin' shit to the wall...

[daddywags]

From what I've read, Kaun is never going to be starting center material in the NBA but he could be a decent rotational big man next year. He's already 25 years old (I think) and was a second round pick. My view would be bring him over here now if we can work it out and keep him around for 3 years. Eyenga, OTOH, is a first round pick which means we have 5 years worth of rights to him after he comes stateside. I think he's just turned 21 and hasn't really grown enough to be anything more than a D-League player at present. I'd keep him overseas for another couple of years to keep developing his skills and his body. No need to waste two years of our five year clock on a guy who can't really help us.

[SoulDawg74]

From what I've read, Kaun is never going to be starting center material in the NBA but he could be a decent rotational big man next year. He's already 25 years old (I think) and was a second round pick. My view would be bring him over here now if we can work it out and keep him around for 3 years. Eyenga, OTOH, is a first round pick which means we have 5 years worth of rights to him after he comes stateside. I think he's just turned 21 and hasn't really grown enough to be anything more than a D-League player at present. I'd keep him overseas for another couple of years to keep developing his skills and his body. No need to waste two years of our five year clock on a guy who can't really help us.

SD:

If he can run and move , his size almost compels you to bring him in and suffer his growing pains .

Shag and Z our walking dead and it seems every other team in the NBA can trot out multiple seven footers in their front court.

I invoke the context of Steve Nash's famous quote about the Laker size and the daunting task of having to overcome it .

"""We know they're not going to get any shorter """


SoulDawg

[SoulDawg74]

From what I've read, Kaun is never going to be starting center material in the NBA but he could be a decent rotational big man next year. He's already 25 years old (I think) and was a second round pick. My view would be bring him over here now if we can work it out and keep him around for 3 years. Eyenga, OTOH, is a first round pick which means we have 5 years worth of rights to him after he comes stateside. I think he's just turned 21 and hasn't really grown enough to be anything more than a D-League player at present. I'd keep him overseas for another couple of years to keep developing his skills and his body. No need to waste two years of our five year clock on a guy who can't really help us.

SD:

If he can run and move , his size almost compels you to bring him in and suffer his growing pains .

Shag and Z our walking dead and it seems every other team in the NBA can trot out multiple seven footers in their front court.

I invoke the context of Steve Nash's famous quote about the Laker size and the daunting task of having to overcome it .

"""We know they're not going to get any shorter """


SoulDawg

[jb]

No need to waste a draft pick a guy who can't really help us.

Fixed.