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Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed May 05, 2010 1:17 pm

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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Ziner » Wed May 05, 2010 1:23 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Welcome to Melt Disney World.


No shit man, seems like once a week, this crap gets old
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Tree » Wed May 05, 2010 1:24 pm

LOL...yah...truly.

Mike Brown is not a premier coach. Does that sting any less? It's no different than saying he sucks at making adjustments, is slow to adapt, and is a reactionary.

I've given Brown support in the past, and berated him when he has failed. There really is no place for Brown to hide right now. If he can't get the most out of what is arguably now, the most talented roster in Cavs history, then he shouldn't have a job here any more.

Run Big or Run Fast. Doesn't matter....at least do something that looks effective, make the proper adjustments, and start coaching, before we get blown out of the 2nd round. We might very well win this next game, but imo, it won't be because of Brown's coaching. It'll be because LeBron got a bit healthy, decided he wasn't going to baby his elbow, and got in his team mates faces, cause lord knows, Brown can't motivate them.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby pup » Wed May 05, 2010 2:23 pm

Image

Both of ya

There is enough shit with melting crap that I also have to eyeball you two characters continuing a pissing match that has apparently been going on across multiple sites for multiple years?

Ignore user. So simple.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Wed May 05, 2010 2:42 pm

Now that the playoffs have started, im glad this is the time that,

#1: people who didnt post here all here show up with outlandish ideas and insults.
#2: everyone decides that now is the time for Mike Brown to dick with a lineup and try radical things, after winning 60+ games
#3: bitch about how horrible Mike Brown is when he's the first guy in the history of ever to get the team to play defense.

A week ago, it's "enjoy the ride"
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 05, 2010 3:08 pm

I've been done Pup, just had to point out that said hilljack/forum killer wasn't going to pull his shit here.

Cat is a troll and has been banned repeatedly for it. Has has tried to destroy many forums w/ outlandish agenda's on thousands of occasions (usually that agenda is centered around a QB). His first post already tells me what his new agenda of choice is Mike Brown sucks and Z is needed to win the series.

He's pure forum cancer.

If he stays around you'll see this soon enough.

And he really likes making stuff up, like me being "run" here.

This is sort of like cmosphe running to RCF. Same difference.

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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu May 06, 2010 10:37 am

Hey Tree, if you haven't figured it out, they play hard ball here. Anybody coming in with a take that goes against the conventional wisdom is going to get hammered.

Take it from me, I posted early in the season that the Cavs might be better with Shaq on the bench, and 3-4 guys jumped on my head with both feet. I was called every name in the book and asked in a not real polite way to go elsewhere. When I tried to support my take with statistics it just infuriated everybody even more. It didn't go well.

Later in the season there was an unexpected opportunity to test that theory when Shaq went down for an extended period of time. Guess what? The Cavs winning percentage didn't go down an iota, and they didn't have Z to fill in for Shaq, either. Now some of these guys are calling for the Cavs to "go small" against the Celtics. I'm not saying we've established that the Cavs are better without Shaq, and I think it depends a great deal on the opponent and on whether Shaq is on top of his game, but I feel vindicated in that at least it's now seen as a legitimate item for discussion.

That being said, in this case you asked for it, Tree. You came in with an extreme take and offered nothing to support it, which is a formula for disaster around here. You said, "You aren't going to see anything that makes any sort of sense" out of Mike Brown, who has an NBA Coach of the Year trophy at home. That is a ridiculous statement. We can debate whether he should go with a big or small lineup, or what matchups he should use, or how he should deal with mismatches that burned the Cavs in Game 2, but to say that nothing he does makes sense is ridiculous and inflammatory.

I don't agee with the personal attacks. I agree with the poster who said just ignore extreme takes, especially those that are unsupported. Your Mike Brown take should have been ignored, and you should not have been attacked personally. Running feuds just screw up the board. My friendly advice, if you want to post, is to come in with a well thought-out, defensible argument, and be prepared to defend it with facts, statistics, or quotes from reputable sources. If you can't do that, don't come in and stir up the hornets nest with inflammatory takes that can't be defended.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby RedDawg » Thu May 06, 2010 11:23 am

Gradysmanldy wrote:Now that the playoffs have started, im glad this is the time that,

#1: people who didnt post here all here show up with outlandish ideas and insults.


Perhaps the forum should be made private, invitation-only then? And which idea was outlandish? Moving Jamison out of the 4?


#2: everyone decides that now is the time for Mike Brown to dick with a lineup and try radical things, after winning 60+ games

We won a whole lot more games this year with Shaq at the 5 and Hickson at the 4, with Z and Andy rotating in together for them then we've won with Jamison at the 4.

#3: bitch about how horrible Mike Brown is when he's the first guy in the history of ever to get the team to play defense.

A week ago, it's "enjoy the ride"

A month ago, everyone agreed that Ferry has done a great job bringing in an impressive supporting cast. If LeBron is the best player in the NBA, and Danny Ferry has assembled a championship caliber supporting cast, then why can't we question Mike Brown's lineups?
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Thu May 06, 2010 11:31 am

God damn it, Tree.

e0y2e3 wrote:Cat is a troll and has been banned repeatedly for it. Has has tried to destroy many forums w/ outlandish agenda's on thousands of occasions (usually that agenda is centered around a QB). His first post already tells me what his new agenda of choice is Mike Brown sucks and Z is needed to win the series.

He's pure forum cancer.


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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Tree » Thu May 06, 2010 1:50 pm

I don't care much for old personal vendettas, like Eyore has. The IMs I got alone about Eyore from this thread alone tell me all you need to know about the guy. But back to the topic.

Point Blank, you have a thread on this very board claiming that Mike Brown is the worst coach in the NBA. You have Charles Barkley telling you that the best player on the Celtics is Mike Brown's lack of coaching acumen.

The Cavs have superior talent. Probably the most talented team in the league. When you have a Michael Jordan on your team, even a Doug Collins can win a few games. Coach of the Year? Pfft....that's like calling Derek Anderson a Pro Bowler.

Lenny Wilkins would destroy Mike Brown with the same lineup in a Cavs v. Cavs matchup, and probably sweep Mike Brown in 4 games. Wilkins could coach, and got more out of the Cavs with lesser players; Brown just coasts on LeBron's coat tails. He's got 4-5 all stars or former all stars on his roster. Yet, this guy has zero culpability with the way this team plays. Zero culpability for the sluggish starts you see in the beginning of a half. Zero culpability for the unimaginative offense they run or the long lapses of defense you often see with this club coached by what is supposed to be a defensive guru. The Mike Brown offense consist of a pick and roll, or LeBron dribbling the ball around in circles till he sees a crack and breaks for daylight. There is nothing imaginative, clever, innovative or creative about an offense like that.

If LeBron is healthy, you'll see the same offense you always see with this club, but only a superior athlete like LeBron can make it work. I doubt if you are going to see major lineup changes. Brown is too stubborn for that. The Cavs can win game 3 with a good effort from James, and hopefully good efforts from the supporting cast, but again, it won't have anything to do with Brown or his coaching. Little will change except perhaps increased effort.

Yah, the company line here is support Mike Brown, but its the post season, where the talent is nearly equal, and in the post season, it's often the small adjustments made by the coaching staff that is the difference between beating an equally or better talented team, or losing to a lesser talented team.

Coaching does matter, even if you have LeBron James on your team. If you don't agree, that's your personal myopic misfortune.
Last edited by Tree on Thu May 06, 2010 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu May 06, 2010 1:54 pm

When observing the Tree creature at work one must appreciate his incredible ability to dodge threads about the topic he is trumpeting to instead work his agenda into another thread, thus completely hijacking that thread and spreading his agenda like a virus throughout the forum while offering little to no actual evidence or observations to back up his agenda.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu May 06, 2010 1:59 pm

Nobody gives a shit about you two dildos and your bitch fest.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu May 06, 2010 2:01 pm

I'm not bitching CDT, I'm merely observing.

;-)
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Thu May 06, 2010 2:34 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Nobody gives a shit about you two dildos and your bitch fest.


:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

That's pretty funny, right there.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby RedDawg » Thu May 06, 2010 2:34 pm

To get back to a more productive tack...

Earlier in the year, our starting lineup was Mo, Parker, Bron, Hickson and Shaq. That's a pretty big lineup. Would it be ridiculous to suggest that we go with Mo, Bron, Jamison, Hickson and Shaq?

Why does Jamison have to play the 4? Why not the 3? He runs well, has an outside game, and seems to be athletic enough to cover Pierce. Would LeBron playing the 2 be a negative somehow?

If LeBron is the best player in the NBA, and his elbow is affecting his offense, why not put him on Rondo and shut his ass down? His length would have to give him fits. Play off and make him shoot over a 6' 9" LeBron.

Maybe these things sound ridiculous, but twenty years ago - if you would have told me that there would be 6'10" and 6' 11" guys whose game revolved around shooting threes I'd have laughed in your face.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Thu May 06, 2010 3:09 pm

I apologize for how lengthy this has gotten.

RedDawg wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:Now that the playoffs have started, im glad this is the time that,

#1: people who didnt post here all here show up with outlandish ideas and insults.


Perhaps the forum should be made private, invitation-only then? And which idea was outlandish? Moving Jamison out of the 4?


Perhaps people should go to Cleveland.com if they just want to whine and moan without any substance. Ad naseum wahhhhhhh mike brown sucks and so does Shaq/Mo just gets old after a bit. And yes, moving Jamison out of the 4 is completely outlandish. Look at 82games.com for what happens when Antawn goes to the 3; obviously, it means Lebron isnt on the court and the team is handicapped because of it, but the opposing SF KILLS Antawn, on defense. He's just not fast enough to keep up with the average SF; the opponent shoots over 66% eFG. It's a -22 +/- per 48 with Antawn at the 3. I'm assuming Mike Brown saw enough of it coming down the stretch to to do that, and should rather slide Moon in at the 3 to maintain offense/defense flexibility. Just MHO, though. That idea isnt more outlandish than playing the corpse of Ilgauskus for meaningful minutes.

#2: everyone decides that now is the time for Mike Brown to dick with a lineup and try radical things, after winning 60+ games

We won a whole lot more games this year with Shaq at the 5 and Hickson at the 4, with Z and Andy rotating in together for them then we've won with Jamison at the 4.

Numerically? True. They played an asswhack more games. Looking at it OBJECTIVELY and using the stats from the 5 man units shows you that the Jamison/Shaq combo, while it didnt see much run, was MUCH more effective.

Here's the lineup you're toting:
M.Williams-Parker-James-Hickson-O'Neal 383.6 (mins) 1.06 (o-rating) 1.12 (d-rating) -42 (+/- for the unit)

Here's the playoff rotation:
19 M.Williams-Parker-James-Jamison-O'Neal 36.7 (mins) 1.23 (o-rating) 1.09 (d-rating) +12 (+/-)

Those stats are skewed by the beginning of the season (when Shaq was clearly ineffective) and by Jamisons god awful debut (the 3 games we lost when he first came over) but generally the machine runs much better with the starting 5 we have. Eyeball test confirms that, basically....Shaq and Jamison are nasty when Shaq makes his bunnies. Him MISSING those bunnies is neither a rotation problem nor a Mike Brown coaching problem.


#3: bitch about how horrible Mike Brown is when he's the first guy in the history of ever to get the team to play defense.

A week ago, it's "enjoy the ride"

A month ago, everyone agreed that Ferry has done a great job bringing in an impressive supporting cast. If LeBron is the best player in the NBA, and Danny Ferry has assembled a championship caliber supporting cast, then why can't we question Mike Brown's lineups?

No problems being constructively critical of Brown's coaching. However, the problem is his ability to motivate his players and get them to perform to their level....the discourse on Lenny Wilkins (whichever thread it was) was accurate. He needs to get these guys to want it as badly as they have in the past, when they had less talent....because 2007-2009, they played over their heads, talent-wise. This year they aren't, and he better fix the mental issues or I don't like his chances to be here for next season.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu May 06, 2010 3:20 pm

The Cavs were 3-8 this year in games where Jamo saw time at the 3 w/ a net differential of -10.7 points per 100 possessions.

And Jamo hasn't played the three well in YEARS.

Just sayin'

All per 82games, of course.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby RedDawg » Thu May 06, 2010 10:48 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:I apologize for how lengthy this has gotten.

RedDawg wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:Now that the playoffs have started, im glad this is the time that,

#1: people who didnt post here all here show up with outlandish ideas and insults.


Perhaps the forum should be made private, invitation-only then? And which idea was outlandish? Moving Jamison out of the 4?


Perhaps people should go to Cleveland.com if they just want to whine and moan without any substance. Ad naseum wahhhhhhh mike brown sucks and so does Shaq/Mo just gets old after a bit. And yes, moving Jamison out of the 4 is completely outlandish. Look at 82games.com for what happens when Antawn goes to the 3; obviously, it means Lebron isnt on the court and the team is handicapped because of it, but the opposing SF KILLS Antawn, on defense. He's just not fast enough to keep up with the average SF; the opponent shoots over 66% eFG. It's a -22 +/- per 48 with Antawn at the 3. I'm assuming Mike Brown saw enough of it coming down the stretch to to do that, and should rather slide Moon in at the 3 to maintain offense/defense flexibility. Just MHO, though. That idea isnt more outlandish than playing the corpse of Ilgauskus for meaningful minutes.

#2: everyone decides that now is the time for Mike Brown to dick with a lineup and try radical things, after winning 60+ games

We won a whole lot more games this year with Shaq at the 5 and Hickson at the 4, with Z and Andy rotating in together for them then we've won with Jamison at the 4.

Numerically? True. They played an asswhack more games. Looking at it OBJECTIVELY and using the stats from the 5 man units shows you that the Jamison/Shaq combo, while it didnt see much run, was MUCH more effective.

Here's the lineup you're toting:
M.Williams-Parker-James-Hickson-O'Neal 383.6 (mins) 1.06 (o-rating) 1.12 (d-rating) -42 (+/- for the unit)

Here's the playoff rotation:
19 M.Williams-Parker-James-Jamison-O'Neal 36.7 (mins) 1.23 (o-rating) 1.09 (d-rating) +12 (+/-)

Those stats are skewed by the beginning of the season (when Shaq was clearly ineffective) and by Jamisons god awful debut (the 3 games we lost when he first came over) but generally the machine runs much better with the starting 5 we have. Eyeball test confirms that, basically....Shaq and Jamison are nasty when Shaq makes his bunnies. Him MISSING those bunnies is neither a rotation problem nor a Mike Brown coaching problem.


#3: bitch about how horrible Mike Brown is when he's the first guy in the history of ever to get the team to play defense.

A week ago, it's "enjoy the ride"

A month ago, everyone agreed that Ferry has done a great job bringing in an impressive supporting cast. If LeBron is the best player in the NBA, and Danny Ferry has assembled a championship caliber supporting cast, then why can't we question Mike Brown's lineups?

No problems being constructively critical of Brown's coaching. However, the problem is his ability to motivate his players and get them to perform to their level....the discourse on Lenny Wilkins (whichever thread it was) was accurate. He needs to get these guys to want it as badly as they have in the past, when they had less talent....because 2007-2009, they played over their heads, talent-wise. This year they aren't, and he better fix the mental issues or I don't like his chances to be here for next season.


Great post. Appreciate you taking the time to respond so intelligently.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby RedDawg » Thu May 06, 2010 10:52 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:The Cavs were 3-8 this year in games where Jamo saw time at the 3 w/ a net differential of -10.7 points per 100 possessions.

And Jamo hasn't played the three well in YEARS.

Just sayin'

All per 82games, of course.



So in a nutshell, Garnett is a bad matchup for Jamison, but we don't have a better option.

Giving up whatever was necessary to get Stoudemire seems a bit more attractive in hindsight now.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri May 07, 2010 12:32 am

Kerr pulled Amare from the table, KG is still shooting a whopping 42% on the series and Andy play great D on him.

Everyone keeps forgetting that during KG's 5-11 fourth in game 2 Andy was not available due to back spasms to bring in as a defensive stopper.

If Jamo isn't scoring we have options.

And if we don't try and face guard him he doesn't get all those easy buckets off lobs he got in the 2nd half. That was retarded.
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