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Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

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Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby RedDawg » Tue May 04, 2010 9:26 am

I'm a big matchup guy in sports. I fully subscribe to picking up Shaq and Parker/Moon to play ORL. Unfortunately we have to beat BOS to see this come to pass.

What I'm seeing is an inability to cover Rondo in any way, and a horrible matchup in Jamison vs. Garnett. Seriously, unless Andy is in the game, every time we miss a shot its a given that they get the board.

Mo Williams can't guard anyone on the Celtics. He's not athletic enough to cover Rondo, and anyone else will post him up. I'm not really sure who can cover Rondo, but my guess is that Parker's length would bother Rondo somewhat. I don't really give a crap about Mo's ego if sitting him is what it takes to win this series. Put him on Ray Allen and have him come in for LeBron when he needs a break.

So why not go big?

Parker/West -> Rondo
LeBron/Mo -> Ray Allen
Jamison/Moon -> Pierce/
AV/Hickson -> Garnett/Big Baby
Shaq/Z -> Perkins/Sheed

Sheed is slow as dirt but can still light it up. He can't take anyone off the dribble anymore, but he can post up and spot up for threes. That means you need length to neutralize him. Can't Z or Shaq check him?

Why were we so worried about getting Z back after the trade when he never gets to play? Can't he contribute anymore? I'm not sure I wouldn't like to see Shaq AND Z on the court together for short stretches. Just for the rebounding, shot-blocking lane-clogging ability these two can pose. Let's create matchup problems for them, for a change.

I really don't like Jamison as a four, and haven't since his arrival. He's a scorer, but if he can't cover the other team's 4, he's a liability IMO. I wouldn't even mind Jamison coming in off the bench as a 3 for LeBron instead of getting worked by Garnett.

What's really scary about all this is that Pierce isn't doing jack yet.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue May 04, 2010 9:37 am

Why were we so worried about getting Z back after the trade when he never gets to play? Can't he contribute anymore?


No, he pretty much can't.

Cavs aren't going to suddenly morph into a completely different team because of one game. Be real.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby swerb » Tue May 04, 2010 9:47 am

Z should never see the floor. Delonte, Andy, and JJ should be playing more. It don't matter who you put on Perk, which should be a luxury. Put Jamison on him. Andy should be checking KG. Delonte should be checking Rondo. Andy and Delonte are our two best pound for pound defenders.

I see almost no reason to play Shaq in this series. If there is one, someone needs to tell me. Best lineup IMO is Delonte, Bron, Jamison, Andy, Hickson.

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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby fundamentals » Tue May 04, 2010 10:06 am

Just say NO to a big lineup.

Swerb's idea is a good one. The Cavaliers need to run the break whenever possible. If you allow the Celtics "their game", things will be difficult. Z was brought back for public relations and to pacify LBJ. It's been mentioned on here ad nauseum about Brown's willingness to adapt to what the other team is doing rather than playing to his team's strengths. You have to look to run them out of the Gahden.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby swerb » Tue May 04, 2010 10:13 am

The Cavs are quicker, deeper, more athletic, and less adept in the half court offense than Boston. They also are one of the greatest teams I've ever seen in their ability to get other teams in foul trouble. And oh yeah, have the greatest fast break player in league history. And the guys who play the second and third most minutes (Mo and Jamo) are both weak half court defenders and both run the break like deer on coke.

To not go small, to not up the tempo ... is insanity. We go 13 deep and rested the whole god damn team the last month of the season for Christ's sake. To see this team plodding the ball up court and getting beat to every loose ball has me filled with e0y2e3-esque rage.

Mike Brown seems to think that upping the tempo of the game will somehow undermine or neuter their "identity" as a defensive basketball team. Dude can't think outside the god damn box to save his life.

I'd love to watch one of these Cavs playoff games with Scott Skiles or Jerry Sloan. They prolly sit there and laugh their ass off.

Mike Brown is an effing moron. They win the title it will be in spite of him. See Barry Switzer.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby jonne99 » Tue May 04, 2010 10:15 am

+1 swerb.
Our "offense" is painful to watch. I was hoping to see adjustments this year from him and...well, we are still doing things that we did in his first year of coaching.
Adaptation is not his strong suit....
On watching the game with skiles.... i picture that skiles has an elven laugh which would make watching a game with him quite unbearable. Anyway....

how about playing leon powe some for rebounding...wtf was the point of getting him if he's just going to wear a suit while we get no offensive rebounds.

I'm really skeptical of using an 8 man rotation. I think anyone that can help should see some time (used appropriately of course).

We should be running 3 plays that, unfortunately, we never run:
1) guard drive penetration (drawing bostons big to cover) and dumping off down low for easy buckets.
2) fucking PICK AND ROLL WITH JAMISON....it has been open all series but we've only used it twice
3) backdoor cuts by moon, hickson, or andy.

run at least #1 and 2 on a consistent basis and we won't be getting down by fucking 20 every game...that's getting really old.

some goddamn off the ball movement of any kind by anyone on our team would be great.
Last edited by jonne99 on Tue May 04, 2010 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Tue May 04, 2010 10:18 am

sportsguy33 I'd like to thank Mike Brown once again for refusing to play the Hickson-Jamison-LBJ-West-Mo quintet. Seriously, thank you.
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Simmons gets it, Barkley has talked about it. Go small and run this team for 48 minutes. Boston can maybe keep pace for a half but not for 4 qtrs. Did someone in the FO accidentaly destroy tape of the game in Boston when Shaq got hurt? Obviously that game has not been looked at when preparing for this series.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 04, 2010 11:01 am

People really need to stop scapegoating Roker.

The C's came in w/ the exact same game plan as the game before, as did we. They executed and NO ONE on our team did. It's really that simple.

Rondo is going to get his against everyone, D-West, Parker, etc.... The only hope is to contain him w/ solid team D and get offensive production from our PG. We didn't.

KG is scoring 18 points on 20+ shots against Jamo. Big effing deal. I'll let KG take 20 shots to produce < 20 points all day every day and twice on Sunday.

Shaq has been up and down and we need him to even out, because we cannot win this series w/ out him. He has closed out our last two wins, has altered shots on D, has made rebounding a far less impossible task (he had two offensive boards in the first three series yesterday, each of which led to missed easy shots) and during the second quarter yesterday he kept us in the game.

For everyone screaming for more JJ, you do realize that it was JJ that got torched by Sheed to the tune of 15 points in the 2nd quarter yesterday? JJ needs to get burn and he had a chance early yesterday. He blew that chance. If he wants to rotate on D and not run around like a retard he'll stay on the floor, simple as that.

Delonte's D has been about as effective as Mo's.

And this isn't even touching on the big fat no show from LBJ.

Stop pointing the finger's at Roker and asking for retarded ideas like going big against a team that we ran out of the gym going small more than once this season (note: this does not mean go small for the entire game).

We need Mo to produce at 60-75% of what Rondo is on O. We need to make shots. We need to make the 75 wide open looks we have missed at the start of games. We need to run some more Jamo P&R (it's dumfounding that as soon as JJ enters the game we go straight to the P&R, are we so afraid of having KG in the lane we are seriously just going to tell Jamo to camp outside all series????).

Roker has not been great by any stretch of the imagination, but the blame for this one starts at LBJ and works its entire way down through every single person on this team.

Good lord people, you want to bitch bitch about the fucking MVP and his shit talking sidekick Mo.

EOD we are missing open looks and LBJ isn't creating. Cannot fix the O until those two things are addressed.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue May 04, 2010 11:19 am

Brown is just so reluctant to change things. It's like he expects the same things he does every game that are detrimental, to suddenly start working for us in the playoffs.
He needs to abandon his Shaq attack philosophy in the first Q, go with the smaller, athletic, high energy lineup. Try anyone on Rondo to stop him from putting up superhuman numbers and dominating the floor
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 04, 2010 11:26 am

We struggled to rebound big time last night, and it seemed liked Andy was the only one holding is own there. I haven't checked the box score, but I believe that Antawn and JJ were really struggling in that area.

I'm also not sold on Parker getting near 30 minutes a night. That's not a knock on him, but the reality is he was brought in to defend bigger SG's and that isn't Ray Allen. I'd have Delonte take some of his minutes there as he can defend Allen and on offense he can get in the lane where as Parker is strictly a 3 point shooter.

It's one game, we shouldn't over react, but that doesn't mean adjustments don't need made.

Also, KG causing us to double him in the post when defended by Antawn is a problem, even if it doesn't show in the box score. Fronting him like that in the second half clearly didn't work.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 04, 2010 11:28 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Stop pointing the finger's at Roker and asking for retarded ideas like going big against a team that we ran out of the gym going small more than once this season (note: this does not mean go small for the entire game).


Agreed. We need to push the tempo much more than we are currently.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue May 04, 2010 11:32 am

Well, the Big Fat No Show now has four days to rest and treat his aching elbow. Unfortunately, I think bone bruises and strained ligaments need weeks or months, not days, to heal.

It appeared to me that LeBron realized he couldn't shoot effectively from the outside (he was right) and he couldn't drive with the Celts packed in the paint, so he just tried to dribble around until he drew a double-team, then hit the open man. The open man wasn't knocking down shots, though, as the Cavs were 4-for-21 from three point range.

I believe LeBron is thinking that he can't play the rest of this series plus two more very physical series the way he normally plays, so he's trying to find a way of getting it done without driving into heavy traffic or putting up threes. He's looking to penetrate and distribute, like a point guard. It's not working well. He lost the ball a few times dribbling in traffic and the Celts are pretty good at anticipating passes and getting steals as well. He did manage to put up 15 foul shots, so he wasn't avoiding all contact, but he wasn't attacking the rim with abandon, either. A lot of times he was dribbling and it looked like he didn't know what to do.

Roker has four days now to think about what adjustments he wants to make, if any. I agree that the Cavs can win with their current game plan IF everybody executes. But we know everybody isn't going to execute every game. Mo is the prime example of that. The challenge for the coach is to find the best combination when the team is struggling. I agree that in general the Cavs need to go with the smaller, quicker lineup and force the pace. They're better running the floor than the Celts.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue May 04, 2010 11:43 am

e0y2e3 wrote:People really need to stop scapegoating Roker..


I knew this board was going to be unreadable for the next few days as people freak the fuck out over one loss. Roker cannot MAKE Lebron take the game over, and this team is predicated by Lebron orchestrating the offense. For 3+ quarters, he didnt, so we got blown out.

The C's came in w/ the exact same game plan as the game before, as did we. They executed and NO ONE on our team did. It's really that simple.
Rondo is going to get his against everyone, D-West, Parker, etc.... The only hope is to contain him w/ solid team D and get offensive production from our PG. We didn't.


For all the fellating of JJ, he was shit poor on defense and had a few easy feeds get fumbled off his fingers. At least he was trying....it wasn't just Mo that was letting Rondo get to the rack unimpeded.

Shaq has been up and down and we need him to even out, because we cannot win this series w/ out him. He has closed out our last two wins, has altered shots on D, has made rebounding a far less impossible task (he had two offensive boards in the first three series yesterday, each of which led to missed easy shots) and during the second quarter yesterday he kept us in the game.


Remember the 2 week stretch when Mo went down and the offense ran through Shaq? It worked. It wasn't half as sputtery as when it runs through Mo, also. Lastly....if we cant get Shaq going against Boston, he would be useless against Orlando, and we'd have 2009 redux. We need the big man to be effective in order to beat Orlando or LA, and that means getting him back into game shape.

We need Mo to produce at 60-75% of what Rondo is on O. We need to make shots. We need to make the 75 wide open looks we have missed at the start of games. We need to run some more Jamo P&R (it's dumfounding that as soon as JJ enters the game we go straight to the P&R, are we so afraid of having KG in the lane we are seriously just going to tell Jamo to camp outside all series????).


And if Mo doesn't, put Boobie in there. And why the !#*! does Jamo only getting 1-2 touches in the post every game? For that matter, why are we incapable of posting ANYONE but Shaq? Maybe some of those looks from 3 would materialize if we could get the defense to rotate to a post player vs. Jamo and Lebron driving through 3 people?

Roker has not been great by any stretch of the imagination, but the blame for this one starts at LBJ and works its entire way down through every single person on this team.


Agreed. Roker isn't wholly responsible for his team to start playing COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY than they did all season when the playoffs show up. He can draw plays, coach, and cajole....but if they don't want to play the same game they've been playing all year (and for the most part, played in the first round) then WTF is he supposed to do.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 04, 2010 12:01 pm

I'm just dumbfounded that everyone is pretending like an inefficient KG is killing us, JJ wasn't called on early and then yanked when he forgot he was supposed to guard Sheed for five straight possessions and that Andy was unavailable in the fourth because he had back spasms.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 04, 2010 12:18 pm

Effort is the problem, even Dwyer knows:

The Boston Celtics are gaining more and more momentum with every passing game, picking up speed with a set rotation of healthy players that are cognizant of their station, and the team's offensive execution has picked up.

But with all that in Boston's back pocket, I can't help but slam the Cavs. This team is just wandering, looking for inspiration. They're playing with a sense of entitlement that seems a bit odd when you consider the fact that the Cleveland Cavaliers have yet to win a title. Not only are the Cavs letting their opponents dictate the terms of competition, they're taking plays off.

And I've got news for Cleveland. There are eight teams left. None of them can take plays off, on either end, and survive. Even the team with the most regular season wins of the lot.

It really does come down to effort. Because while Boston was lauded for its defensive effort in the team's Game 2 win, Cleveland's defense deserves as much scrutiny as Boston's defense (or offense) deserves plaudits. The Cavaliers were constantly losing Celtics on screens, back-screens, screen and roll ... any kind of movement, really. Cleveland knows what it is doing, mind you, so Mike Brown's crew is not exactly new to this defensive thing, or averse to dominating on that end. They know better.

They just had to bring the effort. And in Game 2, the Cavs declined. And because we're done with the regular season, and done with a should-be lottery participant in the Chicago Bulls, the Cavaliers are going to have to learn how to earn wins again, instead of just backing into them.

Boston was fantastic. It overcame a series of terrible calls to work what isn't an option-rich offense on paper into becoming an option-rich offense on the court. Rajon Rondo(notes) was active without having to dominate the rock, Ray Allen(notes) developed all sorts of cross matches and confusion with his work off screens (the Cavs just didn't talk, at all; it was clear through the TV screen), Rasheed Wallace(notes) played terrific defense and even came out nailing perimeter looks after a solid post-up jumper started his night.

When Rasheed nailed his second three-pointer of the game, making his third straight shot to start the evening, I swear you could hear all the laptops on press row pop right open, as everyone began their column for the night. He then topped that with a nice post-up score on J.J. Hickson(notes).

And Paul Pierce(notes)? Well, Paul Pierce is struggling. 40 percent on the season against Cleveland, struggled against them last season, and 33 percent shooting in this series after a 4-10 night on Monday. He's forcing LeBron James(notes) to guard him, though, which is enough.

James had a poor defensive night. He was constantly out of place on that end, including some of Pierce's makes, and though he changed (or persuaded opponents not to shoot) shots and blocked a pair of looks, James was a problem on that end.
And he was a huge problem on the offensive end.

James wandered. He missed some looks on the interior that he usually follows through on, he wasn't committed to working within the flow of the Cleveland offense, and that comes down to effort. That comes down to wanting to make an impact, and could you really point to a time (save for a furious Cleveland rush toward the middle of the fourth quarter) where you really saw James looking to make this game his own?
Even down the stretch, with his ears perked, James just didn't ‘ave it. Missed shots, poor rotations, missed free throws.

If James is hurting, he needs to let his team know, and the Cavs have to find a way to work around it. He has to be honest about his limitations.

And if he can play though this pain? If he can dominate with it, as was the case late in Game 1? Then he needs to get to dominating. Because while this is the best supporting cast he's ever head, this is still a beatable supporting cast. I don't care if Mike Brown is botching the rotations, the lineups, and minutes allotments. He can do better.

His whole team can, as well. Miserable showing from Cleveland.
And, man, I'm telling you -- Boston thinks it can win it all. That's never gone away. And when you pair that up against a team that thinks it's about to be handed a championship? Dangerous stuff.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 04, 2010 12:33 pm

BTW: I find it kind of funny that no one has brought up the fact that the biggest rotation problem and Brown's biggest blunder last night was not getting Moon more than 7 minutes.

Instead of crying about JJ who got himself pulled try bitching about what is actually a problem.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 04, 2010 12:40 pm

Oh and the other thing I would bitch about is the decision to start fronting KG late, which brought KG's FG% up from like 28% to 38%.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Tue May 04, 2010 12:52 pm

First of all, LeBron is injured. It's obvious. I'm starting to wonder if he should be playing at all. Because he didn't help his team playing the way he did last night. Really though, if he's hurt it's over.

Re: the sense of entitlement. I see it too and find it amazing as well. What amazes me is that this isn't the first Cleveland team we've seen to have this sense of entitlement. The late '90s Indians had it too. How can you play in this city and possibly expect to have anything handed to you?
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby RedDawg » Tue May 04, 2010 1:04 pm

Swerb,

I get your "go small" philosophy completely. But I just hate watching Rondo blow by Mo and dish for an easy layup on the weak-side rotation, and watching KG post up and own Jamison possession after possession.

EDIT - KG was only 8 of 21 in Game 2, so EO's point that that KG didn't hurt us much is a good one. But he is SHUTTING DOWN Jamison. KG is outscoring Jamison 36-23, and out-rebounding him 20-15. Wouldn't going big get Jamison matched up on a smaller man, giving the Cavs an offensive mismatch they could exploit?

Maybe going small and making it a track meet wins in the long run. Let's hope Brown trots that lineup so we can see.
Last edited by RedDawg on Tue May 04, 2010 1:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby fundamentals » Tue May 04, 2010 1:11 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:First of all, LeBron is injured. It's obvious. I'm starting to wonder if he should be playing at all. Because he didn't help his team playing the way he did last night. Really though, if he's hurt it's over.

Re: the sense of entitlement. I see it too and find it amazing as well. What amazes me is that this isn't the first Cleveland team we've seen to have this sense of entitlement. The late '90s Indians had it too. How can you play in this city and possibly expect to have anything handed to you?


I am curious as to why you think it's obvious he's hurt?

The entitlement take is solid.
"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

"We had a great time together."
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Tue May 04, 2010 1:18 pm

fundamentals wrote:I am curious as to why you think it's obvious he's hurt?


First of all, he wasn't seeking contact on the drive. He was choosing to dish in situations where he'd usually be looking to lead with the shoulder and get a call. He was dribbling almost exclusively with the left hand. He was clearly favoring one arm or another, which is not normal for him.

Second of all, he wasn't taking jump shots, even in situations where he normally does. I mean, they're down 20 in the second half usually that's when you see him start to chuck it. And he didn't.

Third, did you see the way he was holding out his right arm? It reminded me of old pictures of Kaiser Wilhelm II, who had an arm withered by polio and would just kind of let it dangle at his side.

What pisses me off is that he's obviously injured more than he's letting on, yet he won't admit the extent of the injury not because of anything having to do with this postseason, but because he doesn't want to hurt his upcoming free-agent goodwill tour. The guy is selfish almost beyond belief.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 04, 2010 1:29 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:What pisses me off is that he's obviously injured more than he's letting on, yet he won't admit the extent of the injury not because of anything having to do with this postseason, but because he doesn't want to hurt his upcoming free-agent goodwill tour. The guy is selfish almost beyond belief.


What a terrible take, even for Herm. At least you are correct on that he is obviously hurt more than he is letting on.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Tue May 04, 2010 1:35 pm

ajunior148 wrote:What a terrible take, even for Herm. At least you are correct on that he is obviously hurt more than he is letting on.


Right, even for me. There's no other reason for him to play possum on this injury than he doesn't want to hurt his chances to be courted to the max in FA. None. I mean, New York City ain't getting down on its collective knees for a guy with a bum elbow.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby tired » Tue May 04, 2010 1:35 pm

With Shaq and/or Z in the line up it slows them down. Now you take em out and it ups the tempo and Cavs make a run. But guess what, Mike Brown will put Shaq back in and slow it down again. Just like when a player is hott and on fire he sit's him down to give him a bump. Not to cool him off but, too give him a bump. My ass he's going to cool off sitting !!!
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 04, 2010 1:43 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:
ajunior148 wrote:What a terrible take, even for Herm. At least you are correct on that he is obviously hurt more than he is letting on.


Right, even for me. There's no other reason for him to play possum on this injury than he doesn't want to hurt his chances to be courted to the max in FA. None. I mean, New York City ain't getting down on its collective knees for a guy with a bum elbow.


How about he's a professional athlete that lives in a PC world where a "no excuse" attitude is expected? Is that not a possibility?

You're telling me that you think teams might shy away from him because of a bone bruise this offseason? God, I wish that was the case.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 04, 2010 2:00 pm

Any my apologies for the "Even for Herm" line. I think I remember you as posting something in NHB that was as judgemental towards someone/people you have never meant and that's where that came from. Even if that was you it doesn't belong in this discussion.

To be clear, I didn't mean to imply that your basketball knowledge is lacking.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 04, 2010 2:11 pm

FACT: LBJ could tear his ACL tomorrow and still get a max contract offer from any team in the league. Pull your head out of your ass herm.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Tue May 04, 2010 2:24 pm

How about he's a professional athlete that lives in a PC world where a "no excuse" attitude is expected? Is that not a possibility?


Well he isn't helping his team by refusing to own up to the extent of the injury. He's practically dragging the arm around with him, it isn't as if he'd be shocking anyone by admitting he's hurt. If he is hurt, he needs to sit out.

You're telling me that you think teams might shy away from him because of a bone bruise this offseason? God, I wish that was the case.


Maybe I just stayed in a Holiday Inn last night, but I don't think it's just a bone bruise. I think it's more serious and it involves nerve damage. Take it with a grain of salt.

As for NHB, it wasn't that I was being judgmental, it was that I was being judgmental in a way you didn't like. But never mind that.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 04, 2010 2:35 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:Maybe I just stayed in a Holiday Inn last night, but I don't think it's just a bone bruise. I think it's more serious and it involves nerve damage. Take it with a grain of salt.

As for NHB, it wasn't that I was being judgmental, it was that I was being judgmental in a way you didn't like. But never mind that.


For point #1, LBJ still gets a max deal even with nerve damage. He is not thinking about his FA status. He is thinking about a title. Stop it.

For #2, fair enough. This isn't the place to discuss it.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 04, 2010 2:43 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:BTW: I find it kind of funny that no one has brought up the fact that the biggest rotation problem and Brown's biggest blunder last night was not getting Moon more than 7 minutes.

Instead of crying about JJ who got himself pulled try bitching about what is actually a problem.


Where does Moon play then? Maybe we can give him a go at Rondo with West on Allen and West and LBJ running the point on offense. I'd like to see us try that.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue May 04, 2010 2:45 pm

Even with a dangling arm, he's still the best 3 on the roster and the most consistent chance to win. You could see from his lack of impact that his team was trying to be aggressive w/o him....he never brought the ball up the court, or took it in the post, or set picks or.....anything.

Team play needs to pick up around him, and a hurt arm doesn't excuse a poor ass effort.

Herm: There's zero chance that he's dogging it for free agency. He's getting a max contract regardless of whether he shuts it down tomorrow, plays like shit for another 10 games, or plays the world beater role.

Tired: In a real world, most teams shift from larger to smaller lineups to create mismatches. W/o Shaq playing major minutes, it means you're giving starter minutes to JJ or Z, and neither of them are prepared for that. You have to get Shaq back in the flow of things, the season showed that he's clearly still capable.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue May 04, 2010 3:00 pm

I'm just wondering how many guys slept with each others' wives right before the playoffs.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue May 04, 2010 7:38 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:People really need to stop scapegoating Roker.

The C's came in w/ the exact same game plan as the game before, as did we. They executed and NO ONE on our team did. It's really that simple.

Rondo is going to get his against everyone, D-West, Parker, etc.... The only hope is to contain him w/ solid team D and get offensive production from our PG. We didn't.

KG is scoring 18 points on 20+ shots against Jamo. Big effing deal. I'll let KG take 20 shots to produce < 20 points all day every day and twice on Sunday.

Shaq has been up and down and we need him to even out, because we cannot win this series w/ out him. He has closed out our last two wins, has altered shots on D, has made rebounding a far less impossible task (he had two offensive boards in the first three series yesterday, each of which led to missed easy shots) and during the second quarter yesterday he kept us in the game.

For everyone screaming for more JJ, you do realize that it was JJ that got torched by Sheed to the tune of 15 points in the 2nd quarter yesterday? JJ needs to get burn and he had a chance early yesterday. He blew that chance. If he wants to rotate on D and not run around like a retard he'll stay on the floor, simple as that.

Delonte's D has been about as effective as Mo's.

And this isn't even touching on the big fat no show from LBJ.

Stop pointing the finger's at Roker and asking for retarded ideas like going big against a team that we ran out of the gym going small more than once this season (note: this does not mean go small for the entire game).

We need Mo to produce at 60-75% of what Rondo is on O. We need to make shots. We need to make the 75 wide open looks we have missed at the start of games. We need to run some more Jamo P&R (it's dumfounding that as soon as JJ enters the game we go straight to the P&R, are we so afraid of having KG in the lane we are seriously just going to tell Jamo to camp outside all series????).

Roker has not been great by any stretch of the imagination, but the blame for this one starts at LBJ and works its entire way down through every single person on this team.

Good lord people, you want to bitch bitch about the fucking MVP and his shit talking sidekick Mo.

EOD we are missing open looks and LBJ isn't creating. Cannot fix the O until those two things are addressed.



:cheers: Where the hell is the bow down in worship emoticon?
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby DrPoove » Tue May 04, 2010 8:07 pm

Everybody sit down for this one...

I agree with e0y2e3 100%.

While Mike Brown's coaching is not helping things, the life-blood and soul of this team runs through LBJ. Even if he is injured and not operating at 100% his intensity level and focus needs to be 100% because that is what the rest of this team feeds off of. He needs to be in control of the game and distribute off of that. No LeIso. No defer to everyone else and wait for the second half. Take control, set the tone, establish authority from the opening tip. Be a (expletive deleted) leader.

Celtics have a lot of pride and were never, ever going to roll over. They thought coming is that they could win this series. After Game 2, what do you thing they think now?

If LBJ wakes up and smells the Maple Nut Crunch then this thing is attainable in 7. If we decide to sleep walk through the weekend in Boston, nighty night.

Cavs in 7.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby waborat » Tue May 04, 2010 8:39 pm

Orenthal wrote:

:cheers: Where the hell is the bow down in worship emoticon?


Agreed

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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue May 04, 2010 9:36 pm

I love JJ's energy, but guy has no concept of spacing on D or O. He hurts us on the boards and gets lost on D. His shortcomings are the same as was described early season, and although he was improved vastly over the past 2 years, at this time there is no room for error. At his best against a veteran Boston team he is a +/- wash.

As far as minutes, Moon needs to be eating up some of Parker's and Redz some of Mo's. While I would love to see Boobie get some burn, I just cannot see Brown throwing another small guard into the equation even if his defense is a vast upgrade over Mo's.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby jb » Wed May 05, 2010 7:37 am

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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby jb » Wed May 05, 2010 7:39 am

Orenthal wrote:I love JJ's energy, but guy has no concept of spacing on D or O. He hurts us on the boards and gets lost on D. His shortcomings are the same as was described early season, and although he was improved vastly over the past 2 years, at this time there is no room for error. At his best against a veteran Boston team he is a +/- wash.

As far as minutes, Moon needs to be eating up some of Parker's and Redz some of Mo's. While I would love to see Boobie get some burn, I just cannot see Brown throwing another small guard into the equation even if his defense is a vast upgrade over Mo's.



I'm good with JJ taking his lumps of critique.

I just don't want it to be confused with any decent reason to play the 7' 3" off guard who gets his ankle broke trying to defend a mail box.... mounted on a psot in cement.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby RedDawg » Wed May 05, 2010 8:38 am

The thing that can stop the "go small lineup, run them off the court" philosophy is Boston fouling guys as they break away. Which is what they are doing. It keeps the game slow, the old guys don't have to run, and it prevents the "and 1" or the wide open 3. Sure the fouls mount up, but we are also a bad foul shooting team right now.

Every time Jamison touches the ball in transition Boston should foul him. They will also foul LeBron at midcourt rather then midflight. Over four quarters, these fouls will put them in trouble, but do we acknowledge that it might put us down double digits and just gear up for the 4th quarter comeback?

Rondo's penetration creates a choose your poison scenario. Bigs rotate over, we leave Perkins and Garnett open under the basket. We rotate everyone, the outside shooters spot up and kill us. I'd guess we need to play off Rondo, give him the outside shots and make him shoot over a defender with length? Or just put Mo on him and back him off?

And how about Swerb's idea of putting Jamison on Perkins and Hickson/AV on Garnett? Make Perkins beat us inside, and Rondo beat us with outside shooting?
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby fundamentals » Wed May 05, 2010 9:39 am

I no likey Varejao having back spasms either. Sideshow Bob is needed on the floor for some productive minutes.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 05, 2010 12:01 pm

Can we put a few things to rest:

1) The Celtics starting five is ~ the same ages as the Cavs and the Cavs top eight rotation players are actually a half year older than the C's.

2) Perk can score in the post a little bit, if you put someone like Jamo on him he is going to show that.

3) JJ on KG = BAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

4) Andy has to be able to play or this could be a painful series unless we start scoring mad buckets.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Tree » Wed May 05, 2010 12:43 pm

All your points make perfect sense, and they are astute observations. And therein lies the entire issue with your post. Even if your logic is wrong, it at least shows you are thinking.

Your post sux because it forgets to mention one thing.

Mike Brown is the Cavs coach, and you aren't going to see anything that makes any sort of sense from a strategy perspective from this guy so long as he is the Cavs coach.

As far as rebounding goes, the Cavs used to be one of the best rebounding teams in the league, but that was when "Z" was seeing playing time. He's never going to see the court again if Brown has anything to say about it.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 05, 2010 12:45 pm

STFU and go bother someone else Tree.

I'm in no mood to read your rambling bullshit and I trust neither is most of the board.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Tree » Wed May 05, 2010 12:59 pm

Stick where the sun don't shine. That was uncalled for. Maybe you need to go back to OBR....oops...that's right, you wore your welcome out there.

The poster made some good observations, whether or not you agree with his strategy.

The "Post sux" comment was in jest, because well, Mike Brown is the coach, and he's not out coaching anyone any time soon. The Cavs win because of superior talent, never because of coaching. They lose when that superior talent is outcoached or unmotivated. Both issues are of course coaching issues.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 05, 2010 1:01 pm

Tree wrote:Stick where the sun don't shine. That was uncalled for. Maybe you need to go back to OBR....oops...that's right, you wore your welcome out there.


WTF are you talking about you retarded troll? Feel free to check my posts from today there.

This place is working just fine at the moment and your troll bullshit is uncalled for. Take your thoughtless "I HATE MIKE BROWN" ramblings somewhere else you fucking hiljack troll.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Tree » Wed May 05, 2010 1:04 pm

Oh...never said you were banned there, just said, nobody there cares for your bullshit, and you repeatedly get run there for it. That's why you hide here now. And we both know it's true. Your comments here are a prime example of why you aren't well liked.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Tree » Wed May 05, 2010 1:04 pm

Oh...never said you were banned there, just said, nobody there cares for your bullshit, and you repeatedly get run there for it. That's why you hide here now. And we both know it's true. Your comments here are a prime example of why you aren't well liked.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 05, 2010 1:07 pm

Tree wrote:Oh...never said you were banned there, just said, nobody there cares for your bullshit, and you repeatedly get run there for it. That's why you hide here now. And we both know it's true. Your comments here are a prime example of why you aren't well liked.


I'm not getting into this w/ you, but you don't read any of the forums I post on there and once the WWR was destroyed I lost any and all interaction w/ you since I don't do the current crappy version of Pure Football.

Name me a forum I got ran from though?

I was an admin up until a month ago when I stepped down. Actually banned you once or twice for the mods ;-)

Now that's enough of that.

And as for hiding here, I've been in this Cavs forum for over 3 years (you know, after the old C-Town Sports disbanded and everyone came here). You're just too fucking retarded to find the truth through your mullet and chainsaw.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Prosecutor » Wed May 05, 2010 1:08 pm

Roker isn't wholly responsible for his team to start playing COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY than they did all season when the playoffs show up. He can draw plays, coach, and cajole....but if they don't want to play the same game they've been playing all year (and for the most part, played in the first round) then WTF is he supposed to do.


They haven't exactly been playing the same game all year.

They started out with a conventional lineup with Shaq and Z sharing the center position, JJ/AV at the 4, and no Jamison.

Then they traded for Jamison and Shaq got hurt, so they went with the small, agile, no true center lineup for 6-7 weeks. The lineup that ran the Celtics out of the gym, as Eo pointed out.

Then Shaq came back very late in the season and they've melded the schemes together. They start in the conventional lineup with a true center, only with Jamison in for JJ. When Shaq sits down they switch to the small lineup. They've only been doing this for a few weeks.

The question is - which lineup works better against this particular opponent; the Shaq lineup or the 3 forward/2 guard lineup? If everybody plays hard and executes, it doesn't matter, they can win either way. If Shaq is missing the bunnies and committing offensive fouls, or if the guards shoot 4-for-21, then it doesn't matter, either.

Like it or not they're going to start with Shaq. My only request would be that if Shaq can't score from the post and Mo is throwing up bricks, don't wait too long to go to that small lineup that ran the Celtics out of the gym. That's WTF Roker is supposed to do.

However, he said the Cavs can't beat Boston without a low post game, so I think he'll keep going back to that no matter what happens.

Other than that I agree the Cavs need to step up the intensity and knock down those open shots. And they need to figure out what to do about those mismatches with Jamo on Garnett and anybody on Rondo. One more thing - these guys need to stop waiting for LeBron to create, or lead, or "set the tone", or whatever. The man is hurt and it's affecting his game. Barring an amazing recovery, he can't carry the team on his back, at least not in this series. The supporting cast needs to step up. Mo and West showed they can lead the offense, at least for a quarter, in Game 1. They all need to adopt that mindset.

Last point - trying to get the Celtics big men in foul trouble is a waste of time. One, they can bring in Big Baby and Sheed and the offense doesn't miss a beat. Rondo can penetrate and pass off to these guys as easy as he can pass off to Perkins and Garnett. In fact, Sheed also gives you the 3-point shot. Two, the Cavs are bad free throw shooters anyway. They had 38 free throws in Game 2 against only 18 for the Celts but still got blown out.
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Re: Need to go with a big lineup vs. BOS?

Unread postby Tree » Wed May 05, 2010 1:16 pm

You should have stepped down. It was the proper thing to do. You were a poor mod, and held personal grudges against posters over there, and abused your mod powers repeatedly, and I am not the first to complain about it.

But that's fine, live in your misquided fantasy world, calling people trolls etc. who merely don't share your half baked views, beating your skinny little cyber chest as if that makes up for your own personal inadequacies. Your comments were unwarranted, MISQUIDED, and again were of a personal nature. But what's new with you? Not much. Glad you didn't disappoint me.
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