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The Arizona Law

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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:41 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote::pop:

Smartest thing you've said all week.

;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:30 am

FUDU wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote::pop:

Smartest thing you've said all week.

;-) ;) :wink:


Heh.

Hey, it was fun while it lasted. If you find any of those stats you were talking about, just throw 'em to me in a PM. I'll read 'em, I promise.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:58 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Well.... I guess it's all down hill from here.


Nope. Not for me anyway...not unless you can show me a post where I've resorted to name calling, other than my post back at him, like J-guy just did

Sorry if he or others can't separate the angry internet sarcasm from the real moi but that's his/their problem not mine

If he didn't post drunk maybe he wouldn't have turned into a racist and iced my cake

There's more intellectual dishonesty on display when people accuse others of being racist than when someone makes a comment demmed to be racist. I think there's more to be gained when people dispense with the pretense that they themselves have never had a 'racist' thought or spoke a 'racist' word as defined by someone they don't even know

I'll bet he throws the word 'hero' around often, too ......

...and a dime gets you ten pesos that even Mexicans don't know the history that j-guy thinks I should be an expert in

Even in that link tho, I can't find out what boat the Indians of the SW got off of prior to settling out West
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:35 am

I ain't calling no one a racist, I made a Stormfront remark aimed at Herm, which was intended to be a joke. Maybe I should've used the winking emoticon....

I say just about every racial slur that exists in my own home when my friends are around, but I don't consider myself "racist" because I don't view my race as superior.

You guys can throw muck if you want, God knows i've done my fair share of it. It's entertaining to read.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jb » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:39 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
hermanfontenot wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Stormfront?


The Indians were still playing in Municipal Stadium the last time I cared about whether or not a liberal thought I was a racist.


lol.

I don't think you're racist.

You obviously cared enough to set the record straight about not caring.

I bet FMB is Irish.


You lose.

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WTF is that - you're a fomer Arizona governor turned cabinet official?
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jb » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:43 pm

jfiling wrote:
FUDU wrote:Did you just suggest Mexicans are making food at Chipotle? Yeah in the southwest and Florida probably. I go to Chipotle's at 2 locations in NEO very frequently (best food around - health wise) and I recall seeing one person that I would with out a doubt say is Mexican. But either way I am not sure what point you were making on that, other than maybe Chipotle would be attempting to hire Mexicans specifically?

Now mention an authentic Mexican restaurant, like the one down the street that just opened (Si Senors IIRC), then yeah of course, makes sense like an Italian place being owned and operated by.....Italians.

No, seriously, here in Akron I actually know illegals who work at Chipotle. Come down to the Highland Square location and look at the crew, both behind the counter and working in the prep area. Mostly illegals. Please don't call immigration on them, because they are paying taxes (helping maintain the welfare state), paying their rents (preventing foreclosures), and not committing crimes (except for the big federal one, which the states shouldn't be wasting their time enforcing anyway).



Ditto Boardman. Not all, but some.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jb » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:46 pm

jfiling wrote:
FUDU wrote:
jfiling wrote:So the only reason you have a problem with them is that they weren't born here, but had the misfortune to be born on the other side of an artificial line. Fair enough.

I'd be more pissed at their bathroom habits. Using napkins as ass-wipe and tossing said ass-wipe into a wastebasket instead of the toilet is rather distasteful. And that's how they roll.
In the context of the times we live in, yes that is my biggest issue with illegal aliens, with assimilation coming in a close second, again that is a whole other side to this. But remember they had no control over where they were born as you and I had no control over where we were born, so again, their problems are not my problem.

In a Utopian world where the grass is always green, with blossoming flowers, bunny rabbits as far as the eye can see and everybody being able to speak every language known to man and my house made of gumdrops on lollipop lane then I could get down with the notion of the Kumbaya approach to world without borders, but we don't live in that world.

No, that's too easy of a response to make without any sort of facts. "Assimilation" has been a codeword for "we don't like your type" for too long to let slide. And considering that out of 239 countries and dependencies listed below, the United States ranks 178th in population density, it's not like we don't have to room to take in as many people that want to come here for a long while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... on_density

What it really comes down to is this: Is the United States the "land of the free" as our national anthem proclaims, as well as the place welcoming "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" as I posted above, or are we xenophobic assholes willing to be complete hypocrites since we stole this land from the people who lived here long before Columbus ever made his first voyage.

Answer well, since the Mexicans coming over the border have a much better claim to the American continents than either you or I do.



JD - poetry is noce, but history shows we've always been xenophobic ass holes. But we're OUR xenophobic ass holes !

Th
Last edited by jb on Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jb » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:49 pm

jack_tors wrote:
jfiling wrote:Great, here's some of the geniuses on the same side as me regarding the Arizona law:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politic ... d_ire.html

Opponents of Arizona's new anti-immigrant law are calling for a boycott of the state's products - including the popular Arizona Iced Tea.

The problem: Arizona Iced Tea is actually brewed in New York.


:pb:


This is freakin classic. My favorite part :
Actual Arizona firms facing a boycott: Cold Stone Creamery, U-Haul and Best Western.


Yep, those fascists at Cold Stone are a bit much. Sure, the ice cream is awesome but throwing the Nazi salute when leaving is over the top.. :spanky:



There'd have to be certified evidance of Buchenwald outside of Tempe before I'd boycott Cold Stone.

Just sayin'.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:53 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I ain't calling no one a racist, I made a Stormfront remark aimed at Herm, which was intended to be a joke. Maybe I should've used the winking emoticon....

I say just about every racial slur that exists in my own home when my friends are around, but I don't consider myself "racist" because I don't view my race as superior.

You guys can throw muck if you want, God knows i've done my fair share of it. It's entertaining to read.


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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:03 pm

jb wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
hermanfontenot wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Stormfront?


The Indians were still playing in Municipal Stadium the last time I cared about whether or not a liberal thought I was a racist.


lol.

I don't think you're racist.

You obviously cared enough to set the record straight about not caring.

I bet FMB is Irish.


You lose.

Napolitano/Swedish

Wife tho is a blonde haired blue eyed Scotch/Irish wench born on Longk Eyelant


WTF is that - you're a fomer Arizona governor turned cabinet official?


Who?

All I know is we had a lawyer, married to a lawyer, running against a lawyer, who was married to a lawyer, for the right to run against a war Vet, whose wife owns a brewery...

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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:02 pm

No, that's too easy of a response to make without any sort of facts. "Assimilation" has been a codeword for "we don't like your type" for too long to let slide. And considering that out of 239 countries and dependencies listed below, the United States ranks 178th in population density, it's not like we don't have to room to take in as many people that want to come here for a long while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... on_density

What it really comes down to is this: Is the United States the "land of the free" as our national anthem proclaims, as well as the place welcoming "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" as I posted above, or are we xenophobic assholes willing to be complete hypocrites since we stole this land from the people who lived here long before Columbus ever made his first voyage.

Answer well, since the Mexicans coming over the border have a much better claim to the American continents than either you or I do.


You're a libertarian, right, jfiling? Small, unobtrusive government and all that?

How "libertarian" a government do you think we're going to end up with if we keep importing third-world peasants by the millions? How libertarian are the governments in the countries they come from? How libertarian are the voting habits of these people?

Why do people seem to think we can radically change the demographic and socioeconomic structure of this country and just go merrily along? When has it ever worked that way?
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:24 pm

CDT & J here is one of the links I mentioned, this one covers the high cost of "cheap labor".

http://www.cis.org/node/54

Some highlights of the study:

# Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

# Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

# With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

# On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

# Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.

# If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.

# Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.

# Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jfiling » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:59 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:...and enuff with the they were here first bullshit whoever said it. The fuckers came from Spain. They speak Spanish, not Indian...unless you're saying they were here before the Apache, Navajho and other American Indian tribes...in which case this dumb old man would like to see a link

I really, REALLY, need some sort of explanation for this comment. I've edited out my name-calling, and although I think you've tried to play something you said in this thread as sarcasm, I don't think this was it.

I also remember you saying, in this very thread, that it is preferable to have machines picking fruit than Mexicans. I really can't interpret that take as anything less than the view of someone who sees Mexicans as less than human, as opposed to people who can work here and eventually benefit the culture and economy. I am not the racist; the person who prefers to keep Mexicans in poverty on their side of the border to give jobs to machines meets the criteria a bit more.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:30 pm

Quick fact sheet on this Arizona law.

Answers lots of questions and helps put some things into perspective.

http://cis.org/Announcement/AZ-Immigration-SB1070
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:38 pm

FUDU wrote:CDT & J here is one of the links I mentioned, this one covers the high cost of "cheap labor".

http://www.cis.org/node/54

Some highlights of the study:

# Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

# Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

# With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

# On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

# Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.

# If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.

# Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.

# Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.



Yes, I believe you've posted this before if i'm not mistaken. I was more looking for the stuff you said you had on deporting illegal ag workers not effecting the cost of produce... Or to other areas which they're needed as cheap labor.

This is the most interesting item.

# With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services



According to this, the deficit problem isn't the fact they're illegal or the services they use, it's the lack of education. Wouldn't US Citizens who have the same lack education be in the same boat? Costing more than they pay?
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:55 pm

CDT one of the links about agg and the cost of produce is up thread, basically stating the increase in cost is negligible at best. Weather has more of an impact.

According to this, the deficit problem isn't the fact they're illegal or the services they use, it's the lack of education. Wouldn't US Citizens who have the same lack education be in the same boat? Costing more than they pay?

Right and this is the context of which I constantly bring up with this issue. I have a problem with them not being legal, but an equal a problem with exactly who we are letting in in terms of the benefit this country gets from it.

To stay intellectually honest as JB asks for I really do have an issue with the lazy Americans that fall under that same umbrella. However we do have a social contract as citizens and tax payers that I am willing to support to a limited point. IOW, if there are American citizens that are more of a drain on the system than they are an attribute then OK for the short term, b/c they are in fact Americans (white, black, brown, yellow, green etc...). But let's get them on the track to positive contribution, regardless of the level.

We have children and elderly in this country that sadly get shit on by our economy and ours hypocritical ways, until we get as close to taking care of all of our own I want nothing to do with taking care of the rest of the world's problems.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:44 pm

Ok, my problem with the CIS Ag report is that it really doesn't say who we will replace illegals with, they suggest guest workers, which is fine if it worked like it was supposed to. Alot of guest workers never go home. I just don't see Americans working those jobs, and guest workers might not meet our labor needs.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:32 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Ok, my problem with the CIS Ag report is that it really doesn't say who we will replace illegals with, they suggest guest workers, which is fine if it worked like it was supposed to. Alot of guest workers never go home. I just don't see Americans working those jobs, and guest workers might not meet our labor needs.

The study does mention that in the winter/spring period the U.S. demand goes up resulting in an increase in Mexican imports to the states, which results in less of a "need" for illegal aliens to work that market.

In the end, seeing as we are a free market economy, if there was still a significant "need" for this sweep it under the rug cheap labor then the free market and necessity to innovate would eventually kick in. Besides the other link I posted today addresses the effects of this cheap labor on our economy, so with fewer working in the fields here it would most likely save us money somewhere else in the system.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:20 pm

jfiling wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:...and enuff with the they were here first bullshit whoever said it. The fuckers came from Spain. They speak Spanish, not Indian...unless you're saying they were here before the Apache, Navajho and other American Indian tribes...in which case this dumb old man would like to see a link

I really, REALLY, need some sort of explanation for this comment. I've edited out my name-calling, and although I think you've tried to play something you said in this thread as sarcasm, I don't think this was it.

I also remember you saying, in this very thread, that it is preferable to have machines picking fruit than Mexicans. I really can't interpret that take as anything less than the view of someone who sees Mexicans as less than human, as opposed to people who can work here and eventually benefit the culture and economy. I am not the racist; the person who prefers to keep Mexicans in poverty on their side of the border to give jobs to machines meets the criteria a bit more.


You should spend less time worrying about me and more time worrying about yourself

http://online.wsj.com/article/...3784530750.html

The establishments of the American political parties, and the media, are full of people who think concern about illegal immigration is a mark of racism. If you were Freud you might say, "How odd that's where their minds so quickly go, how strange they're so eager to point an accusing finger. Could they be projecting onto others their own, heavily defended-against inner emotions?" But let's not do Freud, he's too interesting. Maybe they're just smug and sanctimonious.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jb » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:03 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:How "libertarian" a government do you think we're going to end up with if we keep importing third-world peasants by the millions? How libertarian are the governments in the countries they come from? How libertarian are the voting habits of these people?

Why do people seem to think we can radically change the demographic and socioeconomic structure of this country and just go merrily along? When has it ever worked that way?



http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... 16654.html


http://www.sbsun.com/columnists/ci_3767570

http://www.israel-commentary.org/archives/000663.html

Theres a point made by Herm here
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jb » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:07 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Ok, my problem with the CIS Ag report is that it really doesn't say who we will replace illegals with, they suggest guest workers, which is fine if it worked like it was supposed to. Alot of guest workers never go home. I just don't see Americans working those jobs, and guest workers might not meet our labor needs.



Well they did. The oakies came out and were the first migrant pickers. When the war started they improvbed their lot inthe defense factories and they also strated to unionize. The supply / deman curve started to favo higher, living wages.

And then the growers answered with thei quasi support of illegal immigration to tip the scales back.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:41 pm

jb wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Ok, my problem with the CIS Ag report is that it really doesn't say who we will replace illegals with, they suggest guest workers, which is fine if it worked like it was supposed to. Alot of guest workers never go home. I just don't see Americans working those jobs, and guest workers might not meet our labor needs.



Well they did. The oakies came out and were the first migrant pickers. When the war started they improvbed their lot inthe defense factories and they also strated to unionize. The supply / deman curve started to favo higher, living wages.

And then the growers answered with thei quasi support of illegal immigration to tip the scales back.


So we need more Okies?
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jfiling » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:46 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
jb wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Ok, my problem with the CIS Ag report is that it really doesn't say who we will replace illegals with, they suggest guest workers, which is fine if it worked like it was supposed to. Alot of guest workers never go home. I just don't see Americans working those jobs, and guest workers might not meet our labor needs.



Well they did. The oakies came out and were the first migrant pickers. When the war started they improvbed their lot inthe defense factories and they also strated to unionize. The supply / deman curve started to favo higher, living wages.

And then the growers answered with thei quasi support of illegal immigration to tip the scales back.


So we need more Okies?

LOL.

The reason the growers need inexpensive labor is because otherwise it becomes cheaper for us to just import fruit that could be grown here. It's what I said upthread (I think) that by getting rid of immigrant labor in the fields, we'll just be cutting off our noses to spite our faces. Sure, there are some cost disparities, but that's a systemic problem, not an immigration problem. How much better will our tax base be if we import all of our fruits and vegetables that require manual labor instead of growing them here?
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jb » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:52 pm

jfiling wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
jb wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Ok, my problem with the CIS Ag report is that it really doesn't say who we will replace illegals with, they suggest guest workers, which is fine if it worked like it was supposed to. Alot of guest workers never go home. I just don't see Americans working those jobs, and guest workers might not meet our labor needs.



Well they did. The oakies came out and were the first migrant pickers. When the war started they improvbed their lot inthe defense factories and they also strated to unionize. The supply / deman curve started to favo higher, living wages.

And then the growers answered with thei quasi support of illegal immigration to tip the scales back.


So we need more Okies?

LOL.

The reason the growers need inexpensive labor is because otherwise it becomes cheaper for us to just import fruit that could be grown here. It's what I said upthread (I think) that by getting rid of immigrant labor in the fields, we'll just be cutting off our noses to spite our faces. Sure, there are some cost disparities, but that's a systemic problem, not an immigration problem. How much better will our tax base be if we import all of our fruits and vegetables that require manual labor instead of growing them here?


Import away if that helps.

Who gives a shit about growers and pickers?

They don't about manufacturing.

They don't about seafood, for example.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jfiling » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:58 pm

jb wrote:
jfiling wrote:The reason the growers need inexpensive labor is because otherwise it becomes cheaper for us to just import fruit that could be grown here. It's what I said upthread (I think) that by getting rid of immigrant labor in the fields, we'll just be cutting off our noses to spite our faces. Sure, there are some cost disparities, but that's a systemic problem, not an immigration problem. How much better will our tax base be if we import all of our fruits and vegetables that require manual labor instead of growing them here?


Import away if that helps.

Who gives a shit about growers and pickers?

They don't about manufacturing.

They don't about seafood, for example.

Well yeah, that's one answer. Considering the shitty state of the trade deficit I really don't think outsourcing yet another aspect of the economy is going to help pay for ObamaCare, Medicare, Social Security, and all the other things we need a tax base to support.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jb » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:21 pm

That was my off hand way of stating that you are , ahem, cherry picking one industry to protect by keeping our borders unsecured.

I actually agree with you, but it is high time that the manufacturing sector of the midwest and northeast also stop taking it up the tailpipe.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jfiling » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:31 pm

jb wrote:That was my off hand way of stating that you are , ahem, cherry picking one industry to protect by keeping our borders unsecured.

I actually agree with you, but it is high time that the manufacturing sector of the midwest and northeast also stop taking it up the tailpipe.

Ah, gotcha. I think the only way to save the manufacturing sector in those regions is to cut the power of the unions. Manufacturing in the south seems to be doing pretty well, without the handicaps that have been caused by the UAW et. al.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:49 pm

And here come the lawsuits.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36853483/ns ... ?GT1=43001

Edit; Phoenix, Flagstaff, and Tucson are all planning to block the law according to the article.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:14 pm

If you carry jfiling's reasoning to its logical conclusion, the Poles were racist against Germans in September of 1939, the Filipinos were racist against Japanese in December of 1941, and the Romans were racist against Visigoths in 410 AD.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:15 pm

::doh::

Freaking Wegman's is full of fruits and veggies from Latin and South America right now.

This is not something that MIGHT happen or WILL happen....it already is
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jfiling » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:20 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:If you carry jfiling's reasoning to its logical conclusion, the Poles were racist against Germans in September of 1939, the Filipinos were racist against Japanese in December of 1941, and the Romans were racist against Visigoths in 410 AD.

Please. There is a major difference between those situations and coming into this country without a visa. Unless I've managed to miss all the stories about armed Mexican day workers systematically taking land for Mexico.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:30 pm

jfiling wrote:Please. There is a major difference between those situations and coming into this country without a visa. Unless I've managed to miss all the stories about armed Mexican day workers systematically taking land for Mexico.


You're right, jfiling. We should be tolerant and kind-hearted toward people who gather in the hundreds of thousands and wave foreign flags in the streets of our cities.

Anyway, I was just thinking about what a racist William Wallace was for putting up armed resistance to the British. A tolerant and enlightened person would have stood with a smile on his face watching foreign soldiers rape and kill his wife. At least according to jfiling.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jfiling » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:54 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:Anyway, I was just thinking about what a racist William Wallace was for putting up armed resistance to the British. A tolerant and enlightened person would have stood with a smile on his face watching foreign soldiers rape and kill his wife. At least according to jfiling.

I have to admit, I haven't despite looking at the Drudge Report at least 4 times a day, seen a story about Mexican immigrants raping and killing anyone's wife.

Never mind the fact that William Wallace as portrayed in Braveheart isn't the same as the William Wallace as portrayed in written history. Sorta like the death of Jesus in The Passion of the Christ.

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 738785.ece
Not only was the Scottish hero William Wallace gruesomely executed in 1305, having been captured by the English at Falkirk, but seven centuries later his memory was exhumed, smeared with blue face paint and mutilated by Mel Gibson. Wallace was not the poor villager the film depicts, but a landowner and minor knight. The litany of fibs extends from Wallace’s love interest (Queen Isabella would have been about two-years-old at the time) to his kilt – a garment not developed for another three centuries. The historian Sharon L. Krossa likens it to “a film about Colonial America showing the colonial men wearing 20th century business suits.”
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:00 pm

I hope you realize, jfiling, that in order to stay true to yourself, if a Mexican- or any brown person, I guess- breaks into your home and starts rifling through your property, you're pretty much obligated to stand back and let him do what he wants. To do otherwise would be racist, after all.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jfiling » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:14 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:I hope you realize, jfiling, that in order to stay true to yourself, if a Mexican- or any brown person, I guess- breaks into your home and starts rifling through your property, you're pretty much obligated to stand back and let him do what he wants. To do otherwise would be racist, after all.

Libertarianism: People should be allowed to do as they will, unless it causes harm to someone else.

There is no libertarian who would be as passive as you would have me be.

I'm really not the cartoon character you would have me be, and I wouldn't ask the nationality of someone breaking into my house; I would put a bullet in them and worry about their status later.

EDIT: Here's a nice little primer: http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/libFAQ.html
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:47 pm

jfiling wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
jb wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Ok, my problem with the CIS Ag report is that it really doesn't say who we will replace illegals with, they suggest guest workers, which is fine if it worked like it was supposed to. Alot of guest workers never go home. I just don't see Americans working those jobs, and guest workers might not meet our labor needs.



Well they did. The oakies came out and were the first migrant pickers. When the war started they improvbed their lot inthe defense factories and they also strated to unionize. The supply / deman curve started to favo higher, living wages.

And then the growers answered with thei quasi support of illegal immigration to tip the scales back.


So we need more Okies?

LOL.

The reason the growers need inexpensive labor is because otherwise it becomes cheaper for us to just import fruit that could be grown here. It's what I said upthread (I think) that by getting rid of immigrant labor in the fields, we'll just be cutting off our noses to spite our faces. Sure, there are some cost disparities, but that's a systemic problem, not an immigration problem. How much better will our tax base be if we import all of our fruits and vegetables that require manual labor instead of growing them here?
J your point about a tax base had kind of been addressed in the CIS study in regards to the net effect of illegal immigration. Illegal alien tax contributions are moderate at best, and are projected to remain there regardless of their stats as either illegal or citizen, all has to do with low or unskilled and low or uneducated.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:50 pm

I understand Herm's point, and J I have to say he is right to call out your logic in the sense that if you carry it out you do see why one would think you'd stand there and watch, no?

Which is basically what I brought up previously, to you J, would you let just anybody into your home?
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jfiling » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:53 pm

FUDU wrote:I understand Herm's point, and J I have to say he is right to call out your logic in the sense that if you carry it out you do see why one would think you'd stand there and watch, no?

Which is basically what I brought up previously, to you J, would you let just anybody into your home?

No; as I said above, if someone wants to break into my home I would put a bullet in them (sidenote:I have the capability). When it comes to people crossing the border to live in empty apartments, and work in jobs crying for workers, I really don't see the comparison. I guess that's the main difference between us on this issue.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jfiling » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:54 pm

BTW, if you want to know about CIS and their stance on immigration (legal AND illegal), I think this article is worth reading:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2608/
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:07 pm

jfiling wrote:BTW, if you want to know about CIS and their stance on immigration (legal AND illegal), I think this article is worth reading:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2608/

LOL, I have been waiting for that, read it already, and many other opinions similar. CIS is on Congress' speed dial, and they do very good work in the area of research on this topic. I've actually had a minor role in two pieces of work they did and communicate with them via the web a few times a year. Didn't see much that ties into CIS directly on that one though.

The point about population growth is an excellent point and could be the true crux of the issue if we were paying attention. Our country's resources are being exploited and if they illegal alien invasion doesn't stop or slow considerably we will see the effects before you and I die.

FTR CIS is FOR legal immigration, just on a limited basis in which the needs of this country come first and are met.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:15 pm

They are here illegally, right? Aren't the laundry lists of reasons why we are better off with them here solutions to problems that have yet to happen? Build the fence, and kick the ones here out 1 by 1.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:23 pm

J, couple things.

First one myth about illegal aliens is that they pay ZERO taxes. Many of them do pay taxes, just not all that many or all that much $ in taxes.

Second, one reason I keep bringing up the example of "would you let just anybody enter your home" isn't to say that every illegal alien that crosses our border is looking to commit a crime (other than crossing our border) as much as it is to shoot down the general attitude from the apologists (which is mostly the left) in regards to the whole "they just want a better life" logic.

Well no shit they do, they live if Mexico, nuff said. Third world country butting right up against the most free 1st world country on the planet. My response to that is I could care less if they want a better life, but if they do, then earn it by following the procedure and rules in place. I want a better life than I have (not complaining about my life FTR), I could use a better car, and would love a nicer home. Guess what, I have to earn it. Just b/c I want a better life doesn't mean I am entitled to come over your house and eat your food, take your car or spend your money, does it?

That is exactly what is happening in most cases with illegal aliens entering our country, not all but most. The numbers bear this out.

I am not entitled to work at Microsoft, in order to get a job there I'd have to meet their qualifications, then maybe they would hire me. No different than somebody wanting to enter our country.

We punish people for petty theft in this country all the time, we ban people from bars and restaurants for often trivial reasons, yet we virtually turn a deaf ear to hundreds of thousands of people entering our country through private backyards and we ignore the fact that they drive on our roads, eat our food, drink our water etc, then bitch about not getting their due?

Like I said we treat illegal aliens like kings.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jb » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:25 pm

Orenthal wrote:They are here illegally, right? Aren't the laundry lists of reasons why we are better off with them here solutions to problems that have yet to happen? Build the fence, and kick the ones here out 1 by 1.



That's their BS technicality. Crossing the border was illegal, but that was an isolated, discrete act. Now that they are here an dthat has been done, they are merely "undocumented", and that isn't a crime in and of itself.

Don't agree, just explaining.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jfiling » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:25 pm

FUDU wrote:FTR CIS is FOR legal immigration, just on a limited basis in which the needs of this country come first and are met.

Ugh. You are technically right, but their definition of "the needs of this country" do not, and never will, meet reality. You do realize that they are loons who want zero population growth in the United States, right? Their entire issue is keeping our population steady, without using any part of their tiny brains to recognize that population growth = economic growth. The founder is a fucking nutcase, regardless of all the pretty numbers he and his minions spew.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:26 pm

Like I said we treat illegal aliens like kings


Hmmmm. I'm not sure i've ever read about a king working hard in the fields for little money. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jfiling » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:28 pm

FUDU wrote:Well no shit they do, they live if Mexico, nuff said. Third world country butting right up against the most free 1st world country on the planet. My response to that is I could care less if they want a better life, but if they do, then earn it by following the procedure and rules in place. I want a better life than I have (not complaining about my life FTR), I could use a better car, and would love a nicer home. Guess what, I have to earn it. Just b/c I want a better life doesn't mean I am entitled to come over your house and eat your food, take your car or spend your money, does it?

That is exactly what is happening in most cases with illegal aliens entering our country, not all but most. The numbers bear this out.

I am not entitled to work at Microsoft, in order to get a job there I'd have to meet their qualifications, then maybe they would hire me. No different than somebody wanting to enter our country.

We punish people for petty theft in this country all the time, we ban people from bars and restaurants for often trivial reasons, yet we virtually turn a deaf ear to hundreds of thousands of people entering our country through private backyards and we ignore the fact that they drive on our roads, eat our food, drink our water etc, then bitch about not getting their due?

Like I said we treat illegal aliens like kings.

The procedures and rules in place for them to come over the border mean they can't come over. End of story. I think the procedures and rules are bullshit, as do potential employers for millions of immigrants.

And where is there a story about undocumented immigrants bitching about "not getting their due"? I would literally kill to read that one.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:32 pm

jfiling wrote:
FUDU wrote:FTR CIS is FOR legal immigration, just on a limited basis in which the needs of this country come first and are met.

Ugh. You are technically right, but their definition of "the needs of this country" do not, and never will, meet reality. You do realize that they are loons who want zero population growth in the United States, right? Their entire issue is keeping our population steady, without using any part of their tiny brains to recognize that population growth = economic growth. The founder is a fucking nutcase, regardless of all the pretty numbers he and his minions spew.
That is just inaccurate. I agree about the unrealistic outlook but all in all they are solid and legit, as I mentioned they are in ear of Congress a lot, not just b/c they want to be either.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:39 pm

jfiling wrote:
FUDU wrote:Well no shit they do, they live if Mexico, nuff said. Third world country butting right up against the most free 1st world country on the planet. My response to that is I could care less if they want a better life, but if they do, then earn it by following the procedure and rules in place. I want a better life than I have (not complaining about my life FTR), I could use a better car, and would love a nicer home. Guess what, I have to earn it. Just b/c I want a better life doesn't mean I am entitled to come over your house and eat your food, take your car or spend your money, does it?

That is exactly what is happening in most cases with illegal aliens entering our country, not all but most. The numbers bear this out.

I am not entitled to work at Microsoft, in order to get a job there I'd have to meet their qualifications, then maybe they would hire me. No different than somebody wanting to enter our country.

We punish people for petty theft in this country all the time, we ban people from bars and restaurants for often trivial reasons, yet we virtually turn a deaf ear to hundreds of thousands of people entering our country through private backyards and we ignore the fact that they drive on our roads, eat our food, drink our water etc, then bitch about not getting their due?

Like I said we treat illegal aliens like kings.

The procedures and rules in place for them to come over the border mean they can't come over. End of story. I think the procedures and rules are bullshit, as do potential employers for millions of immigrants.
And where is there a story about undocumented immigrants bitching about "not getting their due"? I would literally kill to read that one.
J there is no disputing we have the most liberal immigration policy on the planet, period. It ain't perfect but it is there and working for all to use and abuse. I think it is BS I have to wait 2-3 hours to get into the Melt, but guess what.

As far as the story about illegal aliens, (b/c seriously spare me the BS new age political term of "undocumented" whoever, that is simply a play for sympathy) bitching about their due just look back to 2006/2007 and the illegal alien's rally held in LA, IIRC. They were screaming for their equal rights and claiming "eminent domain" saying they are taking their land back. What do you call that J? Their rights? exactly what are those/ I also laugh at the claims that some illegal aliens will sue over this AZ law, that is rich. That is akin to the common crook that breaks into a home and gets injured/shot by the home owner, then tries to sue.

LMAO.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby jfiling » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:59 pm

Fine. There is no way to have a rational discussion here (and I'll admit I melted on that idiot who is now on my ignore list). It really doesn't matter that "illegal immigrants" actually cannot be convicted of any crime, which is why "undocumented" makes more sense. Keep on keeping on, I guess.
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Re: The Arizona Law

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:53 pm

jfiling wrote:Fine. There is no way to have a rational discussion here (and I'll admit I melted on that idiot who is now on my ignore list). It really doesn't matter that "illegal immigrants" actually cannot be convicted of any crime, which is why "undocumented" makes more sense. Keep on keeping on, I guess.

Nothing wrong with the discussion J, not between you & I anyway, nothing irrational about it either. However the whole "undocumented" trend just started in the last 4-5 years, before that even the media never referred to them as anything other than illegal aliens. It really is a subtle play. They are illegal aliens to be sure, our code even states such.

Not sure what you mean by "cannot be convicted of any crime", if you do not enter this country through designated channels and ports you are entering illegally, that is a violation of federal law, not sure how you can misconstrue that.

If you're getting the idea that I am not sympathetic to an illegal alien and their situation while in this country then I must say you are paying attentino. ;-) ;) :wink:

I'm not trying to change your mind on this, I've been through this Internet chat stuff too many times to know that is an unrealistic approach. I am simply trying to give you some other points to understand exactly why people are opposed to the concept of illegal aliens and why they are Fed up with what is going on.

I'm an American and am for America first, always, I/we as a country are not stepping on anybody's toes by opposing illegals coming here and/or opposing amnesty.

Plus I still have not seen anybody dispute my stance that we treat illegal aliens like kings.
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