ACLU finally butts in where they should

[motherscratcher]

The ACLU will sue to protect CDT's right to PM Orenthal and wear a tux while doing it.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

The ACLU will sue to protect CDT's right to PM Orenthal and wear a tux while doing it.

I only wear a tux. A cumberbun is the best article of clothing ever invented.

I'm going to start Cumberbun Aficionado.

[stonepm]

Here's my thing. The school has rules established and whether they are stupid or not is irrelavant This girl approached the school about "breaking" the rules, when in reality she should have followed the proper channels to actually "change" the rules. They said 'no', she sued. this makes her as big an idiot as the the school. But the tux thing I side with the school on. Since when has a tuxedo been elevated to the status of "political statement" that her not wearing one is violating her 1st Ammendment. They have a dress code, as lots of places do.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Here's my thing. The school has rules established and whether they are stupid or not is irrelavant This girl approached the school about "breaking" the rules, when in reality she should have followed the proper channels to actually "change" the rules. They said 'no', she sued. this makes her as big an idiot as the the school. But the tux thing I side with the school on. Since when has a tuxedo been elevated to the status of "political statement" that her not wearing one is violating her 1st Ammendment. They have a dress code, as lots of places do.

A school cannot have rules that discriminate against one group. How can she have them change the rules, when those rules are bullshit in the first place? She's not an idiot, she was well within her rights. As for the dress code stuff, are girls who wear jeans, t-shirts, and tennis shoes to schools on a daily basis making a "political statement"? Those are mens' clothing. Maybe they should only wear feminine clothing, so things aren't politcal in how they choose to dress. Best not to make waves in this country.

Christ..... People act like she wanted to hold a lesbian orgy on the dance floor.

[waborat]

Christ..... People act like she wanted to hold a lesbian orgy on the dance floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9twNz0ta4U

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Christ..... People act like she wanted to hold a lesbian orgy on the dance floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9twNz0ta4U

Oh wow. That was loud. I had co-workers staring at me. Thanks Wabo.

[stonepm]

A school cannot have rules that discriminate against one group. How can she have them change the rules, when those rules are bullshit in the first place? She's not an idiot, she was well within her rights. As for the dress code stuff, are girls who wear jeans, t-shirts, and tennis shoes to schools on a daily basis making a "political statement"? Those are mens' clothing. Maybe they should only wear feminine clothing, so things aren't politcal in how they choose to dress. Best not to make waves in this country.

Christ..... People act like she wanted to hold a lesbian orgy on the dance floor.

That's exactly my point, CDT. The rule is bullshit so change it. But for now, it is still there. She should have done whatever it takes to rewrite the rule (ie. petition the board of ed, write her congressman, whatever). Not just get pissed and sue because they won't let her be the exception. THAT is what makes her an idiot. BTW, I'm sure there are other rules that descriminate against one particualr group, maybe not here but in other schools and they are allowed to. Like a rule that says you can't bring someone under a certain age, or that your sister can't be your date. Would you be making the same argument for them? Answer honestly and don;t just say it's a differnt situation.

And as for the tux...she is the one making a mundane tuxedo a political statement by claiming that that they are violating her freedom of expression by not letting her wear one. To me, it's just clothes. Now, I don't know what the school dress code is, but proper dress is required all the time in many different instances. There is no right to wear a tuxedo in the Constitution. They aren't telling girls that can't wear pants to school. And they are not telling her that she isn't allowed to wear a tux, just that if she want's to come to prom, she can't. Try wearing a dress to work tomorrow and let me know how that works out for you.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

She should have done whatever it takes to rewrite the rule (ie. petition the board of ed, write her congressman, whatever). Not just get pissed and sue because they won't let her be the exception

She did what it takes, the school is STILL refusing to allow her to attend. Writing the Congressman, seriously? That would take 500 years. Lawsuits bring action.

Would you be making the same argument for them? Answer honestly and don;t just say it's a differnt situation.

If someone really wants to take their sister or brother to prom, go for it. It's not really any of my business, it's creepy but I don't really care.. Underage is against the law, so that has merit. Not saying a 18 year old can't take a 17 year old if they're both seniors.

And as for the tux...she is the one making a mundane tuxedo a political statement by claiming that that they are violating her freedom of expression by not letting her wear one

She wants to wear a tux, it's not a big deal. What difference does it make? Maybe she doesn't like dresses. It's standard prom garb. It's so not political, it's really not. Had the school just backed off none of this would even be news.

Try wearing a dress to work tomorrow and let me know how that works out for you.

No thanks. I'm straight.

[jfiling]

stonepm:

Rules are only valid if they protect someone from the harm of other people's actions. Once I see an explanation of who would have been harmed by these two girls wanting to go to prom in the manner they wished, I'll be more sympathetic to your viewpoint.

As an aside...

To anyone who wants to decry to movement away from "traditional values", you can expect a hearty "fuck you". People living in a lifestyle that you don't approve of doesn't harm you. You trying to make people live according to your values makes you an asshole.

[aoxo1]

Shorter stonepm: She should have tried to get the school to change the rules by doing something besides asking them to change the rules.

[motherscratcher]

stonepm - Are you serious? She should have tried harder to change the rules? I guess "she should have done whatever it takes to rewrite the rule (ie. petition the board of ed, write her congressman, whatever)" means everything except a lawsuit.

What the hell do you think would have done the trick? These idiots cancelled the entire fucking prom just so they didn't have to let some lesbian go. Do you think they would have changed their minds if she had asked more nicely or something?

The rule is bullshit, and should have been recognized as such by the powers that be at the outset. It's not the girl's fault that whatever confederate flag waiving A-holes who are in charge want to force their out of date worldview on an entire high school despite the fact that it doesn't affect their lives in the least.

[stonepm]

I think you guys are missing my point. 1st off, I side with the girl here. I don't really care who she takes to the prom. My point is she is suing them because they wouldn't let her break the rule, not because they wouldn't change the rule, even if it is stupid and outdated. Now, regardless of the outcome, all this is doing is costing the district (read:TAXPAYERS) shitloads of money. Nowhere did I read where she made any attemp to get the rule changed, only that she approached them about taking her girlfriend to the prom and wearing a tux, they said 'no'. She was aware the rule existed because she said that they had denied people in the past. Now, she should have garnered public support and then pursued whatever avenue she had to (I don't know what the process is, but if it was me, I would have found out)to change the rule. Instead. she went right to the ACLU and the nuclear option. Which would be fine if the other stuff didn't work.

Now, if she did that, then I will change my position and say that the school brd is just assholes.

Does this make more sense?

[Ziner]

I think you guys are missing my point. 1st off, I side with the girl here. I don't really care who she takes to the prom. My point is she is suing them because they wouldn't let her break the rule, not because they wouldn't change the rule, even if it is stupid and outdated.

What are you even talking about? From the way I read it the ACLU sued to get the rule changed, they won the school canceled prom so they could spite the ACLU

The district's decision Wednesday came after the ACLU demanded that officials change a policy banning same-sex prom dates because it said it violated students' rights.

Now, regardless of the outcome, all this is doing is costing the district (read:TAXPAYERS) shitloads of money.

You say this as if it is the girls fault. Bottom line is this, if the school changes the rule, as they should, there wouldnt have been a dime spent on this by taxpayers.

Nowhere did I read where she made any attemp to get the rule changed, only that she approached them about taking her girlfriend to the prom and wearing a tux, they said 'no'. She was aware the rule existed because she said that they had denied people in the past. Now, she should have garnered public support and then pursued whatever avenue she had to (I don't know what the process is, but if it was me, I would have found out)to change the rule. Instead. she went right to the ACLU and the nuclear option. Which would be fine if the other stuff didn't work.

Attempt to get the rule changed? She called the freaking ACLU and got it changed. What other effective measure did you want her to take, what else is as quick and effective? Come on.

Dude, the ACLU got the job done, there aint no problem with going to them, that is what they are there for. Your other so called "avenues" are pointless. Half of these people still have the confederate flag hanging out front of their house. You want her to start a pep rally or something? You want to her take every avenue except the one that gets results. Thats just stupid.

Does this make more sense?

Not a lick because you are advocating her take less effective routes and are trying to pretend she didnt want to get the rule changed when that is the whole point of the ACLU suit.

[stonepm]

Show me where in the article it says that she gave the district the opportunity to change the rule BEFORE she got the ACLU involved and I'll change my opinion. Hell, show me where it says that she even ASKED them to change the rule before she ran to the ACLU. Fact is, as soon as they got a call from the ACLU, lawyers were forced to become involved, thereby costing taxpayer money. Show me where in the article it says the District said they wouldn't change the rule and I'll change my opinion. They cancelled the prom AFTER the ACLU became involved because now it is going to be a media circus. Wait till a judge forces them to reinstate the prom and a bunch of reporters are there harrasing the kids as they arrive. That should be real enjoyable for them.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

The whole point of the ALCU is use tax payer money to protect the rights of said tax payers, no?

Stone, show me where it's written that she has to exhaust all other methods before bringing in the ALCU. It's no a waste of tax payer money, it's exactly why the ALCU exists. If the school is so stupid that they think it's ok to bar people from prom based on who they date, then they should be sued.

This shit isn't that complicated.

"Excuse me Mr. Superintendent, could you please change your homphobic rule that never should've been in place to begin with?"

[motherscratcher]

stonepm - It really sounds like you're saying that you think there was a good chance that the board would have changed the rule if she had just written a nice letter or something. AND, the board only refused to change the rule and cancelled the prom to spite the ACLU, not because they are homophobic A-holes. In short, the school board doesn't necessarily have anything against this girl and her lifestyle, they just don't like the ACLU. Is that what you're saying?

[Ziner]

CDT, I dont think the ACLU gets tax dollars, from what I understand and according to wiki they get a large amount of their operating budget from contributions from people, membership fees and the money they win in court cases. Not that it changes the argument. They obviously felt that it was a worthy cause, which it was.

Bottom line is with out their involvement the rule wasnt going to change with out assistance from the ACLU

Edit: unless you meant by their status as a non-profit and therefore being tax exempt.

[stonepm]

The whole point of the ALCU is use tax payer money to protect the rights of said tax payers, no?

Stone, show me where it's written that she has to exhaust all other methods before bringing in the ALCU. It's no a waste of tax payer money, it's exactly why the ALCU exists. If the school is so stupid that they think it's ok to bar people from prom based on who they date, then they should be sued.

Not the ACLU's money, the district's (taxpayer's) money. there is no rule that says she had to exhaust other methods. Put it this way CDT, You owe your buddy $2000, he calls and asks is you have $2000 to pay it, you say 'no', he sues you. Kind of a dick move, dontcha think? I know, your rights weren't violated and you asked to borrow the money, blah blah, but the point is he didn't give you the opportunity to do the right thing and it doesn't sound like she did either. whether or not they would have, I don't know (probably not , but you all make out that the school board has refused). I haven't read one thing that says the school was unwilling to change it.

This shit isn't that complicated.

"Excuse me Mr. Superintendent, could you please change your homphobic rule that never should've been in place to begin with?"

I ever read that she said this and the school still refused, I will change my opinion. I am still waiting for someone to show me where it says she (not the ACLU lawyers, cuz how do ou think taht conversation went?) even asked them to change the rule...waiting...waiting...

[stonepm]

stonepm - It really sounds like you're saying that you think there was a good chance that the board would have changed the rule if she had just written a nice letter or something. AND, the board only refused to change the rule and cancelled the prom to spite the ACLU, not because they are homophobic A-holes. In short, the school board doesn't necessarily have anything against this girl and her lifestyle, they just don't like the ACLU. Is that what you're saying?

Sorta... but not to 'spite' the ACLU. I don't know if they would change the rule (personally, I doubt it) but I haven't read 1 thing that said they won't. I don't know what the opinions of these people are. But I also haven't read where she even asked them to change the rule, only that the ACLU came in and demanded that they do it. Now, if this is anything like most government BS, it's not really that simple they can't just say "lesbians allowed" I bet there is a process they have to follow and that's probly as stupid as their rule and twice as drawn out.

[exiledbuckeye]

Stonepm, you have your facts slightly wrong. The girl talked to the school principal back in December about bringing her girlfriend as a date, they refused to allow it, all that stuff. So the ACLU sent a letter to the school on her behalf asking that she be allowed to bring her girlfriend, and in response to the letter the school district cancelled prom. The ACLU is now suing to force the district to hold the prom and allow the same-sex couple to attend.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/ ... 2120.shtml

[Orenthal]

To anyone who wants to decry to movement away from "traditional values", you can expect a hearty "fuck you". People living in a lifestyle that you don't approve of doesn't harm you. You trying to make people live according to your values makes you an asshole.

Hey, as along as they get married before having sex I don't see any traditional values being violated.

Just let her go and be done with it... Even if the schools believes in what they are doing the fact it stays in the news, and creates more attention only hurts their cause...

[jfiling]

Stonepm, you have your facts slightly wrong. The girl talked to the school principal back in December about bringing her girlfriend as a date, they refused to allow it, all that stuff. So the ACLU sent a letter to the school on her behalf asking that she be allowed to bring her girlfriend, and in response to the letter the school district cancelled prom. The ACLU is now suing to force the district to hold the prom and allow the same-sex couple to attend.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/ ... 2120.shtml

Exactly right. And here is the latest:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/17/missis ... index.html

At the center of the lawsuit is a memorandum from the school to students, dated February 5, which says that prom dates must be of the opposite sex.

Also, when McMillen expressed a desire to wear a tuxedo to the prom, the district superintendent told her only male students were allowed to wear them, according to court documents.

"We are determined to get the prom back on the calendar and open to all students," said ACLU lawyer Christine Sun. "What this case comes down to is the school taking the extraordinary measure of canceling the prom, rather than live up to its legal obligation to fairly treat all students who want to come to it."

Honestly, I'm amazed that the ACLU still has the bad reputation it was tarred with when George H. W. Bush decried Michael Dukakis as a "card-carrying member". Apparently there are still enough people who don't realize that if everyone doesn't have equal rights, then eventually nobody will.

[stonepm]

I stand corrected. The principal sounds like a dick knuckle. On a side note: That was a terrible interview. That girl did a phenomenal job of not falling for Behar's baiting. Kudos to her.

[jfiling]

I stand corrected. The principal sounds like a dick knuckle. On a side note: That was a terrible interview. That girl did a phenomenal job of not falling for Behar's baiting. Kudos to her.

Yeah, Joy Behar isn't the best interviewer in my book, either. And, in all fairness, the principal had to support the school board decision or else risk losing a job. The greater good that will come out of this is that school districts around the country will need to reexamine these stupid backwards policies if they have them, which will eliminate the need for any more ACLU involvement. I liked how Constance mentioned morals briefly, without pushing it. Morals involve harming others, and like I've said above, a person's sexuality harms nobody. Or, as I've seen on bumper stickers, "Hate is not a family value".

[jb]

This sounds like a job for Ren McCormack.

[motherscratcher]

This sounds like a job for Ren McCormack.

Nice.

[jfiling]

Just when I thought the people down there couldn't be bigger assholes...

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News ... Fake_Prom/

To avoid Constance McMillen bringing a female date to her prom, the teen was sent to a "fake prom" while the rest of her class partied at a secret location at an event organized by parents.

[Ziner]

That is absolutely pathetic. The lengths people will go to. Nice to see they sent the kids with learning disabilities there as well. The parents involved disgust me.

[exiledbuckeye]

I thought that the girl's response was pretty classy. One interview I read, she said she was happy that they sent the special needs kids to the fake prom so that no one was making fun of them during their prom.

People are idiots. Then again there are still places in the south holding "white prom" and "black prom" so I am not surprised.

[motherscratcher]

Wow. Hard to understand the lengths that so many people will go to. I guess I just don't get it.

Edit: I think what might disappoint me the most is that it seems like not a single kid at that school told the girl what was going on. Not one.

[mattvan1]

In most of the US, the calendar year is 2010.

In Mississippi, it's sometime in the late 1960's. The state flag tells you all you need to know.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

In most of the US, the calendar year is 2010.

In Mississippi, it's sometime in the late 1960's. The state flag tells you all you need to know.

Fucking Rebel flags....... Do they not realize that they lost the war? Confederate Flags are for losers..... Literally.

[jb]

Think of the message discpline it took to hide that other prom and pull this off. Man, I doubt al quaeda has that kind of discipline.

Whole thing reminds me of the Animal House rush party scene where Flounder and Pinto get shuttled off the other room with Mohammad and Jugdish. "Then you'll have plenty to talk about!"

[jb]

In most of the US, the calendar year is 2010.

In Mississippi, it's sometime in the late 1960's. The state flag tells you all you need to know.

Fucking Rebel flags....... Do they not realize that they lost the war? Confederate Flags are for losers..... Literally.

red necks and biggots want to associate with losers. I asy let them.

This past St patty's day parade in Boardman some doofus Civil war re-enecters marched as conferedates. One said "hi" to me and I told him the real Irish Brigade was gonna kick his ass.

[jack_tors]

In most of the US, the calendar year is 2010.

In Mississippi, it's sometime in the late 1960's. The state flag tells you all you need to know.

Fucking Rebel flags....... Do they not realize that they lost the war? Confederate Flags are for losers..... Literally.

+1

I will take it a step farther. Those people were traitors who led an armed insurrection against the government in the name of slavery... err states rights. Its disgusting and they should only be remembered as losing bigots.

[mattvan1]

Mississippi County Schools Ordered to Comply with Desegregation Order

No, it's not from 1957. It's from yesterday's Washington Post

A federal judge Tuesday ordered a rural county in southwestern Mississippi to stop segregating its schools by grouping African American students into all-black classrooms and allowing white students to transfer to the county's only majority-white school, the U.S. Justice Department announced.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/13/AR2010041302867.html