LOST Season 6

[Jumbo]

Since there are 4 days to go until the season premiere, it seems like the right time to start this thread.

The cliffhanger this past season did a great job of creating a number of possibilities where they could go with the show, centering on when the characters appear after Jughead exploded, if the bomb actually prevented 815 from crashing, and (if it did) what the characters remember from their Island lives (particularly if there is any difference between those who got sent back to the 70s and those who didn't, or were on 815 or got to the Island in a different way).

I think the easiest guess is the most straightforward: the castaways warp back to 2004, on 815, but with memories of their "alternative lives" intact. First scene: eyeball closeup on Jack, pan back to show him utterly confused, and the stewardess comes by to ask how his drink is. When he stutters a response, she takes the drink away (instead of giving him more mini-bottles), and it dawns on Jack that it worked. He looks over at Rose, who is also astonished. He smiles, and says "It worked...but I remember." Rose, "Yeah. I remember I didn't have cancer anymore." Awkward. Cut to Charlie running up the aisle with his heroin. Jack: "And he was dead." Title sequence. (Unless Island-memory is limited to people that Jacob touched, so Rose would just be oblivious.)

One more thing. The mortals with the most apparent knowledge of the Island (Ben and Widmore) have their private little war. Ben is aware of Jacob, but neither Ben nor Widmore seems aware of the greater conflict between Jacob and the Man in Black. They thought they were the players, but they're really the pawns.

"What about you?"

[StewieG]

No clue what's gonna happen (I've been avoiding spoilers like the plague), but I can't wait. Watched the entire series over the last month and a half, and finally finished up season 5 last week. It's such an incredible show.

[Jumbo]

No clue what's gonna happen (I've been avoiding spoilers like the plague), but I can't wait. Watched the entire series over the last month and a half, and finally finished up season 5 last week. It's such an incredible show.

Yeah - I also did the rewatch. Aside from all the various mysteries, it's an interesting perspective to rewatch the show knowing(?) that the dead characters are Smokey and/or the Man in Black.

[Shadow Scars]

Holy crap the new season starts next week?? I can't wait!

[Doc]

Thanks for starting this, as I was going to in the next day or 2. My buddy at work got me into Lost, and I invested in a sweet deal on all the BluRays, thanks to someone on this board, whom I can't remember. Had a week and a half of nothing but Lost, watched all 5 seasons in 10 days. Incredible. I had given up middle of season 3 previously, but went all the way this time. Stoked for Tuesday.

Speaking of which, my buddy from work was fortunate enough to have won some Message in a Bottle contest where 815 people win some prize, which includes the first 5 minutes of Season 6. He just got it in the mail today, and I'm eagerly anticipating sitting down and seeing it...hopefully tonight. The first 5 minutes, I'm sure, will have my mind wandering until Tuesday, trying to figure out how this season is going to play out.

Also, I noticed last week (and don't hate me if this is an obvious or well-known fact), but the premier falls on February 2nd...Groundhog's Day. For some reason, I think this is big news. I really expect the opening sequence to be at the Sydney airport, or more likely on the plane. But, I couldn't tell you what happens to the plane, how the whole Jacob/Ben/Locke thing is going to play out.

[StewieG]

Ok, so obviously the bomb split everything into two separate realities: One in which the bomb blew up (and sunk) the island, which made it so that a lot of things changed (Locke went on his walkabout, Boone left w/o Shannon, the plane landed, Desmond was on the plane, the island had sunk, etc) and one in which the bomb didn't work, and it sent them back to their original timeline.

I think both Juliet and Desmond were switching between the two realities. Juliet at first said it didn't work, then said it did. She also alternated between knowing who Sawyer was, and not knowing. Also, Desmond was there, then he wasn't.

Great seeing Charlie, Claire, Boone, Arzt, Frogurt, etc back, even if it was just a one-time thing (though I suspect Claire will be featured more)

My guess is that the island will draw the two realities together, and Christian Shepard is the key to both.

[Jumbo]

Excellent episode and bridges the last season and this season well. Also did a nice job of confirming the connection between the Smoke Monster and the Man in Black.

I agree that Christian is the key to the connection between the two realities. The interesting issue is how much awareness the characters have of the other reality. Obviously Juliet had a connection, and Desmond is Desmond. Jack has a least a subconscious awareness of, if not the island specifically, a "greater purpose" - a faithfulness that he never had in his prior life.

The most straightforward explanation to Sayid coming back to life is that he's being inhabited by Jacob, since dead is dead.

FLocke's telling of Locke's last thought was awesome.

The whole "dust to keep out Smokey" thing is a little weird. So far we've seen it around the cabin, so there was some reason to keep him out of there before the line was broken. But, the people at the Temple were awfully concerned about the Man in Black, but Smokey lives under the Temple. (His home?) Perhaps MiB wasn't permitted back in the Temple in corporeal form.

I'm intrigued to see the connection develop between the two realities. If a "war is coming," perhaps it is over which reality ultimately wins out. If the characters in each reality can choose their destiny, then there might be two alignments of the castaways. Sayid, for one, would rather have 815 not crash.

[StewieG]

Excellent episode and bridges the last season and this season well. Also did a nice job of confirming the connection between the Smoke Monster and the Man in Black.

I agree that Christian is the key to the connection between the two realities. The interesting issue is how much awareness the characters have of the other reality. Obviously Juliet had a connection, and Desmond is Desmond. Jack has a least a subconscious awareness of, if not the island specifically, a "greater purpose" - a faithfulness that he never had in his prior life.

The most straightforward explanation to Sayid coming back to life is that he's being inhabited by Jacob, since dead is dead.

FLocke's telling of Locke's last thought was awesome.

The whole "dust to keep out Smokey" thing is a little weird. So far we've seen it around the cabin, so there was some reason to keep him out of there before the line was broken. But, the people at the Temple were awfully concerned about the Man in Black, but Smokey lives under the Temple. (His home?) Perhaps MiB wasn't permitted back in the Temple in corporeal form.

I'm intrigued to see the connection develop between the two realities. If a "war is coming," perhaps it is over which reality ultimately wins out. If the characters in each reality can choose their destiny, then there might be two alignments of the castaways. Sayid, for one, would rather have 815 not crash.

Excellent point about Jacob inhabiting Sayid. The thought crossed my mind when they announced he was dead, but then I forgot about it.

Also good to see what exactly happened to the flight attendant, the children, and the rest of the people taken from the beach when the tail section's story was told. I think the last time we saw them on the island was near the beginning of season 3.

It would be interesting if this became a war for reality, with Jacob looking to win for the LA X side, and the Smoke Monster looking to win for the Island side.

[Doc]

Damn. Wow. That was pretty awesome.

Agree with the Sayid/Jacob thing, I think that's a lock. It's going to be a fun season. Lots of ends to tie up from 5 previous seasons, as well as everything that happened today. Specifically now that there's 2 full timelines now, it's going to be action packed throughout. I think I've gotta rewatch that tomorrow.

[motherscratcher]

I've been along for the ride since episode 1. This show is amazing and I thought this episode started off this season in great fashion.

The first thing I thought about Sayid was that Jacob would go into him the same way that the MIB inhabits Locke. What I can't figure out is why he needs Sayid's body. The other guy obviously doesn't need Locke's body.

EDIT:
OK - I guess the difference is that Jacob is dead and the other guy isn't. Do you suppose the MIB/smokemonster guy can only look like someone (Locke) who is dead?

[Jumbo]

The first thing I thought about Sayid was that Jacob would go into him the same way that the MIB inhabits Locke. What I can't figure out is why he needs Sayid's body. The other guy obviously doesn't need Locke's body.

EDIT:
OK - I guess the difference is that Jacob is dead and the other guy isn't. Do you suppose the MIB/smokemonster guy can only look like someone (Locke) who is dead?

Aha!

We've seen the smoke monster replicate at least two characters so far: Locke and Yemi. Yemi appeared to Mr. Eko, who asked him to repent for his sins. Eko refused, believing that his life had been just. Yemi disappeared, angry, and reformed as Smokey to kill Eko. (There has been some theorizing that Eko was Smokey's first choice at finding someone spiritually broken to take advantage of, and when Eko proved too resilient, he killed him and moved on to Locke.) We've also seen Yemi's body in the plane. (There may have been other characters, too, but I don't remember right now.)

But: we've also seen Christian walking around the island. I rewatched the show with the belief that he was Smokey/MIB/FLocke, but note that his body has conspicuously never been found. Jack even tracked down the open casket at some point. So maybe he was actually Jacob, and perhaps the whole point is that Jacob inhabits the actual body of the dead, but Smokey merely mimics them?

Hmm...but, on the other hand, I think that the producers were asked once whether Jacob has appeared to the characters before in another form. And they said that he had not. So scratch that idea. Maybe.

[StewieG]

I think MiB can only appear as someone once they're dead. Yemi was dead, Alex was dead, and he didn't appear as Locke until he was dead. Christian is also dead, and my guess is the MiB is him as well. Remember, it was Christian who showed Locke how to turn the wheel, setting in motion Locke getting kicked off the island, leading to his death, and giving the MiB the opportunity to appear as him.

I think the Temple was Jacob's, but the wall and the area under it were MiB's.

[redneckofsc]

When Jack, Hugo, Kate, Jin and Sayid were trying to find the temple, who was the dead guy (skeleton) laying on the floor with only one arm?

[motherscratcher]

When Jack, Hugo, Kate, Jin and Sayid were trying to find the temple, who was the dead guy (skeleton) laying on the floor with only one arm?

Jumbo could probably answer better because he seems to remember all of this stuff pretty well. I think that the skeletons were the French(?) dudes who got sucked into the wall by the smoke monster when Jin was with them. He hooked up with them after he floated ashore following the ship exploding.

[Doc]

I didn't remember until someone told me last night. Rousseau's crew (from the sky flashing/time jumping era of Lost) was attacked by the smoke monster IIRC. One guy was pulled into the pit by Smokie, and ripped his arm off. I believe that's how it was explained to me last night. Probably near the same time when Jin is with them and now remembers where the temple is. I don't vouch for the accuracy of this info, watching all 5 seasons over like 10 days tends to make me forget exactly when/how things happened. But I think the above is accurate.

[redneckofsc]

I believe you two are right, now I am remembering

[docstank]

I think the temple is Jacob's ladder, and the MIB is his brother in the bible, I think his name is Esou. The characters of the show are representing people on different rungs of the ladder determined by their level of "virtue" Esau is trying to destroy this gateway to heaven for some reason perhaps he has lost his faith in humanity?? Just a theory

At stake may also be the "garment of Adam and Eve" which the Biblical Esau believed represented the error of humanity and had the power to lead to death of all men.

[biggie4]

Well, obviously Jacob, the entity currently portraying Locke and whatshisname, Richard, the guy who never ages, are some sort of god-like beings. Perhaps they are fallen angels.

[Jumbo]

I think MiB can only appear as someone once they're dead. Yemi was dead, Alex was dead, and he didn't appear as Locke until he was dead. Christian is also dead, and my guess is the MiB is him as well. Remember, it was Christian who showed Locke how to turn the wheel, setting in motion Locke getting kicked off the island, leading to his death, and giving the MiB the opportunity to appear as him.

Yeah, I had forgotten how much influence that Christian had in moving the island and getting Locke off it.

Thinking of which, there's something (probably minor) that's been bugging me: Back in season 5, it seemed like each of the players with a stake in the island (Jacob, MiB, Richard, Ben, Eloise and Widmore) wanted to Locke to leave the island and get the castaways back. There didn't seem to be any real opposition to Locke's plan. Where's the other side? Didn't anybody want to keep the castaways from getting back to the island?

I suppose that the simplest explanation is that the "Get Locke Off the Island, Have Him Die, And Bring Him Back" plan was originally MiB's, but Jacob knew of it and coopted certain elements, like giving Hurley the guitar and encouraging him to get on the plane. Ben's and Eloise's motives are pretty straightforward, but I want to see more of Widmore.

And yes, the guy with the missing arm is a member of the French team.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Montand

[Yinzer Hater]

I think MiB can only appear as someone once they're dead. Yemi was dead, Alex was dead, and he didn't appear as Locke until he was dead. Christian is also dead, and my guess is the MiB is him as well. Remember, it was Christian who showed Locke how to turn the wheel, setting in motion Locke getting kicked off the island, leading to his death, and giving the MiB the opportunity to appear as him.

Yeah, I had forgotten how much influence that Christian had in moving the island and getting Locke off it.

Thinking of which, there's something (probably minor) that's been bugging me: Back in season 5, it seemed like each of the players with a stake in the island (Jacob, MiB, Richard, Ben, Eloise and Widmore) wanted to Locke to leave the island and get the castaways back. There didn't seem to be any real opposition to Locke's plan. Where's the other side? Didn't anybody want to keep the castaways from getting back to the island?

I suppose that the simplest explanation is that the "Get Locke Off the Island, Have Him Die, And Bring Him Back" plan was originally MiB's, but Jacob knew of it and coopted certain elements, like giving Hurley the guitar and encouraging him to get on the plane. Ben's and Eloise's motives are pretty straightforward, but I want to see more of Widmore.

And yes, the guy with the missing arm is a member of the French team.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Montand

The whole Good vs. Evil theme carried out in simultaneous worlds. I assume the Evil represents them being on the Island still hence Juliet saying it didn't work and the good the plane landing hence Juliet saying it did work. Interesting

[Jumbo]

A few thoughts on last night's episode. Not as good as the premiere, but a few nice character moments (Sawyer in Dharmaville was good) and some more set-up of the season's story.

- So far, they're really pushing the theme of convergence. First, there's the Big Question of whether the two realities will in some sense overlap, and in the meantime the off-island story repeats the on-island story. You've got Aaron's two mommies, and Ethan getting involved. Even though Ethan (I think) isn't involved in any conspiracies, they did a nice job of evoking Ethan's creepiness from when he abducted Claire.

- Also on convergence: One technique that they used in the premiere was to connect two mysteries, such that answering one mystery answers both. By making Locke = MIB = Smoke Monster, any revelation we have about either MIB or Smokey is a revelation about both. The callback to the "infection" or "sickness" (a plotline that seemed to be dropped a long time ago) is another example. They seem to be aligning the infection with Smokey. This seems to connect with the French team being "sick" after they were attacked by the monster. It also raises the question about whether Christian is actually the MIB, or was reanimated (like Sayid) and is actually some kind of drone. That would explain why Christian could (apparently) leave the Island, but MIB (apparently) cannot.

- There's one issue with converging too many questions and storylines. Although this can help in streamline the story and answer questions rapidly, with two godlike creatures on the Island, it risks converting the show into a massive deus ex machina. The infection? MIB does it. The Numbers? Jacob invented them to bring people to the Island. Magical healing powers? Jacob did it. Time and space properties? MIB and Jacob did it together, and now are fighting over who gets to control it. Etc.

- They really pushed the Claire = New Rousseau angle, right down to the old rifle. I wonder if, the more we learn about Claire, whether we're supposed to question anything we thought we knew about Rousseau. The big question with Rousseau is whether the French team actually was sick, or whether she just went batshit and killed them. Jin's visit last season tilted more to the sickness side of things, but not enough to draw a precise answer.

- The infection plotline was also connected with Claire's pregnancy, after Aaron got the fever and Kate, Claire and Rousseau went to the medical station to look for the "vaccine." I don't remember where she got the vaccine later, but I do remember that Desmond said that he had been injecting himself with it...until he realized that it was safe outside the hatch.

- Dogen (the Japanese guy) works better when he's not being translated. I'm looking forward to seeing if there is a history between him and Ben. (And Widmore. That storyline isn't over, I hope.)

- Annoying Thing #1: So we're supposed to believe that Kate drove back to where she let Claire out of the cab (not far from LAX), then drove around the area until she found Claire waiting at a bus stop, all the while the feds were out looking around for her? I get that she had an affinity for Aaron, and that she tends to visit family despite the risk, but still...

- Annoying Thing #2: For a group that was made to seem so fearsome in the first few seasons, the Others' foot-soldiers were extremely lame.

[motherscratcher]

I love reading your thoughts Jumbo. You can keep all of this...stuff...organized in your mind much better than I can.

[justmebd]

Good stuff Jimbo, let me address your two annoyances

Kate Finding Claire: One theme of the show has been the way the characters have interacted and "found" each other. This is just a natural progression of that theme. If Kate decided to go back and look for Claire, the Island would make sure she found her.

The Others: This has been a glaring weakness of the show since the second season. The Other are as tough or as weak as the writers need them to be from week-to-week. I remember by the end of the third season Calling Sayeed the new Captain Kirk. Kirk always went down to the planet, lost his shirt and got a red shirt killed. Sayeed gets built up as a bad ass, goes into the jungle, gets his ass kicked and is disarmed before punching somebody and running away. It happened almost every third or fourth episode for two solid seasons, not to mention his kidnapping by Rousseau in Season One.

As for everything else, Kate episodes always tend to be the worst. Her character was a concept (fugitive) that I don't think ended up working out as well as hoped. For a Kate episode, I was happy and the Sawyer moments totally elevated the episode.

I've heard a rumor the "other" timeline will converge with this one at the halfway point of the season. *Shrug* We'll see what happens.

[Jumbo]

I love reading your thoughts Jumbo. You can keep all of this...stuff...organized in your mind much better than I can.

A recent series rewatch, Lostpedia and checking in on recap sites is really all it takes.

Ironically, Lost is one of the easier shows to comment on, since there is so much material. What Mitch does with 24, now that's superb.

[Jumbo]

Good stuff Jimbo, let me address your two annoyances

Kate Finding Claire: One theme of the show has been the way the characters have interacted and "found" each other. This is just a natural progression of that theme. If Kate decided to go back and look for Claire, the Island would make sure she found her.

Yeah, but she didn't need to be so reckless. I mean, it's not like Kate ever ran into the woods for no good reas...um...nevermind. You're absolutely right.

The Others: This has been a glaring weakness of the show since the second season. The Other are as tough or as weak as the writers need them to be from week-to-week. I remember by the end of the third season Calling Sayeed the new Captain Kirk. Kirk always went down to the planet, lost his shirt and got a red shirt killed. Sayeed gets built up as a bad ass, goes into the jungle, gets his ass kicked and is disarmed before punching somebody and running away. It happened almost every third or fourth episode for two solid seasons, not to mention his kidnapping by Rousseau in Season One.

One of the recaps noted that the white guy who got shot was the guy that got knocked out when Kate and Sawyer(?) were rescuing Rousseau's daughter's boyfriend by using the Wookie Prisoner Trick. So that makes his lameness and bitterness a little more understandable.

I also think that the Others probably have their better and worse soldiers like anything else, but for a group that could move soundlessly in the woods and could match anybody in a fight, they'd probably put their best on guard duty with such important...guests? Prisoners?

(OTOH, it's possible that the Others really only a small set of really good soldiers, who got killed when they tried to raid the castaways camp or by Widmore's men, but that would be retconning.)

[TribeNut]

lame Others- just a plot device. Like the soldiers for COBRA, or Shredder's Foot clan. Their role in the story is to be deceived, tricked, and get their arses kicked.

[GameTimeAllTheTime]

Lost is

[motherscratcher]

Lost is

Lost is beating a dead horse? What does that mean?

[GameTimeAllTheTime]

It means everything..... seriously though lost is overplayed old and should have finished a long time ago. It's kinda like when talk radio was making jokes about how there would be a Spider Man 6 and Shrek 5. Some things need to end.

[motherscratcher]

It means everything..... seriously though lost is overplayed old and should have finished a long time ago. It's kinda like when talk radio was making jokes about how there would be a Spider Man 6 and Shrek 5. Some things need to end.

OK

Wrong, but OK.

[StewieG]

Motherscratcher - Just noticed that Jacob is one of the guys in your avatar.

[Jumbo]

Thoughts on last night:

- Much better than last week.

- There's a major disconnect between the flashsideways stories and the on-island stories. The flashsideways is a self-contained story (which will perhaps only have one more chance to be expanded on, if the character gets a second this year), but the on-island story is just one chapter in a larger story. This isn't a bad thing or a good thing; it's just interesting, and may result in some episodes feeling incomplete. (Or, making the quality of the episode tied more closely to the flashsideways.)

- The title "The Substitute" is genius. On one level, it has to do with Locke resigned to his fate (dismissing miracles, being told what he can't do, etc.) and becoming a substitute teacher. (As a Man of Science!) Expect to see major faith/spirituality themes in Jack's flashsideways. On another level, FLocke is a substitute body for the MIB. On a third level, a major plot point in this episode is that Jacob is looking for candidates for his substitute as guardian of the island.

- Alterna-Locke's story raises some major "This is Different!" signals. Of course, Ben off-island and in an ordinary job is a big deal. But also note that Helen is around: at first glance, it seemed like she just forgave him after Locke attempted to deal with his kidney-stealing, out-of-window-pushing dad. But note the very conspicuous mention of Locke's father as a guest at the wedding. This raises a series of Big Questions: (1) How did Alterna-Locke become paralyzed? (2) Is Mirror Dad a con man? (3) If he isn't a con man, are Sawyer's parents alive? (4) If Alterna-Locke wasn't pushed out a window, and Sawyer's parents are alive, then doesn't that erase Jacob's pretexts for visiting both characters? (5) Thus, is the real divergence between the mirror universes not whether the bomb plan worked, but whether Jacob existed and/or met the castaways?

- The suspicions on questions 4 and 5 is heightened based on the direct flashback to Jacob meeting the castaways interconnected with the names on the wall.

- I think Sawyer's comments that old Locke was "scared" is based on Locke getting Sawyer to kill his father, when he couldn't do it himself.

- The wall seems connected to Jacob's Lists. But, it's unclear what is supposed to happen to the "candidates." If we aren't retconning, then presumably the Others/Hostiles are not supposed to directly contact candidates as soon as they arrive on the Island.

- I wonder if Ben's name is on the wall anywhere?

- "It only ends once" from Jacob's conversation with MIB seems to suggest that what only ends once is the search for Jacob's substitute.

- This is another episode where the Big Answer largely confirms what we already knew based on the season 5 finale: that Jacob somehow engineered the castaways onto the Island. (Except that Jacob met Sayid and Hurley after the crash of 815.) What is new is the reason why they were brought to the Island. (Although I have seen some speculation along those lines before.)

- The comment that FLocke can't assume another person's form conflicts with Smokey assuming Alex's form last season. Unless it was Jacob's death that locked MIB into Locke's body, and he won't be variable again until a new Jacob appears.

- Broken Sawyer getting a purpose could be awesome. Based on the Incident and last week, it also seems like Broken Jack could be getting a purpose as well. I think Sawyer isn't surviving the season, and will then meet Juliet in the Mirror Universe for coffee.

- The Numbers return. The lingering question remains whether the numbers have an intrinsic meaning that Jacob picks up on, or whether their meaning is a consequence of Jacob giving them meaning. (Question for Socrates: Do the gods love holy things because they are sacred, or are holy things sacred because the gods love them?) As I noted earlier in this thread, I prefer the first explanation for the Lost story.

- That kid looked most like a young Jacob, right?

- Ben lied again about killing Jacob. But his "speech" at Locke's "funeral" was hilarious.

- I'm looking forward to Hurley's flashsideways.

- Clearly, we're meant to think that the future Avatar of Jacob is Jack, right? (Or Ben?)

[Doc]

Love reading your replies Jumbo. Gotta get to a meeting, and then I'll see if I can reply to some of those points. Let me say, though, that last night's show was awesome. Probably a top 5 for me.

[Doc]

We don't know for sure if Ben was on the wall, but "Linus" was, according to something I read this morning. It outlined all of the names that viewers could see. Linus was #117 apparently. The only main characters I didn't see on the wall (or the list that I saw) were Kate, Widmore, and the group of Tailies. Most everyone else seemed to be accounted for, and were crossed off. There are some that couldn't be made out, and there were names that haven't shown up in Lost yet.

I'm not sure how I feel about the flash-sideways. I hope it's leading to something island-related, though. I did enjoy this one, though. I believed last night that we would find out that Locke had a tumor like Ben did, but I'm not sure that he does after the meeting with Rose and her saying that she has cancer. I was expecting some repeat of Season 3 with jack performing the surgery on Locke now, instead of Ben. I'm not sure what happened to him or why his father is still in the picture. Your thoughts about Jacob in regards to Sawyer and Locke based on this new timeline are really interesting. As you mentioned, though...if the other timeline is based on a world without Jacob, that interests me.

Again, love the recaps Jumbo, and it gives me new things to kick around until next Tuesday. Keep em coming.

[Jumbo]

We don't know for sure if Ben was on the wall, but "Linus" was, according to something I read this morning.

It does fit with "What about you?" if Ben is no longer a candidate.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Cliffside_cave

Desmond's not on the list either. The rules don't apply to him.

[biggie4]

if the other timeline is based on a world without Jacob, that interests me.

this particular timeline was created when the bomb exploded, right? If so, then this timeline changes everything back to 1977, before some of these characters were even born. However, Jacob has been around for a long time.

I enjoy reading the posts here--certainly Jumbo's in particular. The whole concept is so mind-boggling though--it's very difficult to keep up.

Is it fair to say, do you think, that some event or decision, either on the island or in the new timeline, will control which of these two timelines become, for lack of a better word, "reality?" Or, perhaps it is that the new timeline will show the rather grisly and quick demise of ALL the characters who were stranded on the island--demonstrating how changing history does not necessarily make it better.

Anyway, Lost is a compellingly mesmerizing show. I wish I had more time to research the possible solutions. In all seriousness, it may be that Lost is one of the, if not THE, most successfully interesting TV show of all time.

[Doc]

Maybe instead of "No Jacob", I meant "No Jacob influence"...if that makes any sense. As Jumbo was saying, it seems as though Locke's father isn't the same type of person as portrayed in the first 5 seasons, as evidenced by a possible invite to Locke's wedding from last night's episode. Which leads me to believe that Locke wasn't pushed out of a window (by his father, at least), which would mean that Jacob may never have touched him. Ditto Sawyer, as if Locke's father wasn't the con man he always was, maybe Sawyer's parents are alive and well. And, again, no Jacob at their funeral. So, I'm guessing if those things didn't happen, maybe they never meet Jacob. And maybe that's why they aren't on the island in the flash-sideways.

And frankly, I don't think I know what's going on in the alternate timeline. Yes, it began directly after the bomb was detonated. But, I'm not sure that the bomb is directly related to those events. It's very possible, even probable, I'm just not sure. Somehow, I think it put everyone on the island in the same time, but I don't know about the events of the plane landing, only because the stories are so much different. I think, somehow, the stories from the island and from the new timeline of landing in LA are going to converge together. That's my guess. But, that's a lot of story to pull off in like 14-15 more episodes. Once the plane landed in the S6 premier, I kind of just assumed that for it to be a worthy storyline, they'd have to get back to the island or something along those lines. I didn't think it made sense for them to carry out the story off the island with no real mention of the island (except for all the random meetings like Ben/Locke in the school). But, I'm warming a little to them being 2 separate storylines.

I think I'm past the point where I actually care how the series ends. What I know from watching Lost is that anything I think might happen often does not. I like guessing at it, and between guys here and others I watch with, that's half the fun. And with how 3 of the first 4 hours have been (LA X and The Substitute were great shows, IMO)...I guess I'd say that I have a lot of theories and look forward to each and every one of them being disproved by the end of the season. Which, of course, gives me a lot more time to formulate new theories, which will likely also be incorrect.

[biggie4]

Well, my personal theory, at least now that we definitely have two separate "realities" going, is that some "test" must taken, resulting in the absolute "win" of one or the other realities. Most likely the "test" will occur in the "island reality" and it may be something as simple as whether the MIB is "thwarted" or not. In fact, it would seem that possibly an MIB complete "win" over Jacob would result in extinguishing the whole island reality, since MIB wants to "go home." So, I'm guessing that MIB wins out, perhaps by simply getting "key people" on his side, and achieves his goal which would eliminate even the existence of the island. In the "new" reality, the post-bomb reality, we might get to see all these familiar characters come together in some meaningful way, or somehow end up as "associated" in some significant way. That's the easy way to wrap things up, I guess. Allowing the "island reality" to continue seemingly only keeps the "can of worms" open forever and ever.

Nothing is completely satisfying from a "tying up all loose ends" aspect----maybe though there is some significance to the date that the bomb exploded (for instance, maybe's it's Claire's date of birth and she has been brought into this world to give birth to a very special creature--a creature who becomes ?).

[Jumbo]

Ben's appearance in last night's episode did major damage to the theory that the bomb caused the timeline divergence (or, at least, that the timeline diverged at the moment of the explosion). As far as we know, Ben was still on-island when the bomb exploded (as opposed to Ethan, who we saw last week, who I think was evacuated). Assuming the bomb killed everyone on the island (and, especially given that the sub had just left there was no hope of immediate rescue), Ben should have been killed in the mirror universe. On this theory, Ben must have either never went to the island or left it some time prior to the bomb exploding.

Paradox speculation: because 815 never crashes, the castaways never go back in time. Because the castaways never go back in time, Sayid never shoots Ben. Ben, by not going to the Others, ends up on the sub during the evacuation.

[Jumbo]

For those who aren't aware, Jorge Garcia and his girlfriend are doing an excellent podcast series based on their initial readings of the scripts.

http://geronimojacksbeard.blogspot.com/

[Jumbo]

The last ten minutes of last night's episode redeemed what had previously been a mediocre episode. I was concerned that the whole episode would be set-up; luckily, it was just set-up for an awesome ending.

- Sayid's flash-sideways was well-executed, but unsurprising. After getting past "Hey! Nadia's with Sayid's brother!" (not as interesting as "Hey! Locke's with Helen!" or "Hey! Jack has a kid!") it seemed pretty much by the numbers. Of course Sayid's feelings for Nadia would be apparent. Of course, once it was revealed that Sayid's brother was in trouble with the mob, Sayid would have to become the killer that he can't escape (as he has several times before on the show). (But, Sayid didn't do so as willingly as he has in the island timeline. So that was an interesting difference.)

- So they brought Keamy back just to kill him again. from me.

- Was Keamy's Arab associate the guy who had Sayid tortured in his restaurant a few seasons ago? If so, nice touch.

- Also nice to have Jin in the freezer. Connects Sayid's story to the others, since it seemed like Sayid didn't have any connections yet (aside from passing Jack in the hospital).

- This episode suggests that Sayid hasn't been a torturer for twelve years, which would be 1992 - just after Desert Storm. That makes it seem that he either wasn't a torturer for very long (since his first interrogation was assisting the American guy who ended up in the hatch), or he started pre-Desert Storm. Lostpedia suggests that Sayid was picked up by the CIA to go to Australia about seven years after he interrogated Nadia, which would've put him leaving the Republican Guard in about 1997. So, did sideways-Sayid never interrogate Nadia (and is that why he isn't actually with her?) or were they just loose with the dates?

- The beginning of the island story weren't all that special. Sayid is angsty, Claire shows up at the Temple, etc. Dogen lying to Sayid wasn't much of a surprise. (Although, it did leave open an odd question about whether, if Sayid had actually attacked FLocke before he said a word, if the knife would have killed FLocke.)

- Claire gave off a major Gollum vibe when she learned that Kate had her precious.

- I'm not sure whether to believe Dogen's story of how he got to the Island. Hearing Jacob presented as a tempter is a sharp break from what we've seen of him before (where he might ask, suggest, or manipulate, but never offer a deal). In fact, as Dogen points out, it's parallels FLocke's corrupt bargain with Sayid. So: Dogen's son actually died in the car accident, Jacob showed up with an offer for Dogen to redeem himself, and Dogen changed his story to try to reach Sayid. Also, did Dogen not kill Sayid at the beginning of the episode because, when he saw the baseball fall, he was reminded that his actual mission is to get killed by Sayid? (Probably not.)

- Locke's offer aligns with Ben's metaphor(?) of the magic box.

- Where were Sawyer and Jin? You'd think that Jin would be trying to sell Sayid that Claire has gone crazy.

- Smokey killing everyone in the temple was sweet. The escape bits were pretty good too.

- Sayid walking among the dead in the temple echoed Ben walking among the dead Dharma initiative. This was reinforced by when Ben (who just may be on the path to redemption) tried to get Sayid and Sayid said that he was already gone.

- Actually, the whole aftermath of the temple attack was pretty crazy. Hearing the "Catch a Falling Star" song with all the dead bodies on the ground was great.

- The Others are now completely wiped out. The battle-lines are drawn.

- The changed the episode-pattern, where each episode matched its corresponding season 1 episode. It certainly seemed like this episode ("Sundown") was going to match season 1's Sun episode ("Rising Sun").

[exiledbuckeye]

Love your thoughts, Jumbo.

- Was Keamy's Arab associate the guy who had Sayid tortured in his restaurant a few seasons ago? If so, nice touch.

That guy was one of Keamy's "soldiers" from the freighter. Think he got blown up by a grenade in Season 4 - someone tossed it a Keamy and he threw it away towards his guys to avoid getting killed.

[StewieG]

Finally caught up on the last 3 episodes (starting with Sundown).

First, Sundown was just as Jumbo said: "Meh" for 35 minutes, incredible for 10. That ending was amazing.

The one focusing on Linus was a big one, I think. It further pushes Ben down the path of redemption. Unlike previous seasons, I believe him when he says he's truly sorry for killing Jacob. And, interestingly enough, he makes the right choice when faced with his decision of going back to the beach camp or going to Hydra Island with Locke. Excellent job by Michael Emerson in this episode, too. Not that he isn't normally excellent.

"Recon" wasn't as good as the last one, but it does focus on the fact that there are now 3 separate groups essentially vying for control: Team Locke, Team Jack, and Team Widmore. Was I the only one really hoping to see Charlie again? I was hoping we'd see him when his brother was at the police station looking for him, and I was REALLY hoping he'd be the hooded figure running at the end. My disappointment that it was Kate was immense. We also get reminded that Aaron is important...which is one of those big season-1 mysteries yet to be solved. I'm very interested in how he plays into the story.

8 episodes left. It'll be sad when the best show on TV's run is over.

[Jumbo]

Dr. Linus was very good. Michael Emerson was great at showing all the sides of Ben's character, and now that he has some redemption it will be interesting to see where he goes next. Recon had some nice moments and the sideways story raised some interesting questions(*), but overall felt like part one of a two-part episode. With an Alpert story next week, it seems incomplete. BTW, my money's on Desmond being locked in the sub.

Charlotte looked a million times better last night than she ever did when she was actually on the show.

Odds are good that Sawyer meets Anthony Cooper at Locke's wedding.

(*) Here's my problem with the sideways-stories as they are unfolding so far. They're too deep. I don't want them raising questions. They have presented an entirely alternative backstory with Generally Interesting Characters, and those characters have new mysteries. Rather than resolving the questions that Lost has brought up over the course of the series they are squaring them.

Next week's Alpert episode is, I think, the last chance we've got at answers to "Big Questions" that used to be important to the show but have since apparently become irrelevant: e.g., the origin of the Dharma Initiative (and why they keep dropping food on the island), why pregnant women died, why the Others used to be awesome, etc. I had thought that they were going back to the flashback format for the Alpert show, but maybe I'm wrong. I guess we'll see next week.

[Jumbo]

Tonight's episode was amazing. That is all.

[StewieG]

Yes, it was. We got major answers as to what's happening in the flash-sideways. And friggin Charlie and Faraday returned! They were 2 of my favorite characters. It was really good to see them again.

[Bill the Butcher]

I just want to show them something...

Who's 'them'?

[StewieG]

I was stunned by all the deaths last episode. Pretty much knew Lapidus was gonna bite it at some point, same with Sayid...but Jin and Sun? Whoa...

3 episodes left. As Mitch pointed out in his column today, the finale will be 2 and a half hours. Local news and Jimmy Kimmel (who will show 3 alternate endings following the finale) will both be pushed back a half hour. And in case you haven't heard, the finale is on SUNDAY, May 23.

[Bill the Butcher]

T-minus 4.5 hours

[motherscratcher]

T-minus 4.5 hours

I'm positively giddy.