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JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

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JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby jack_tors » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:28 pm

Anyone looking for a good documentary on the JFK assassination should watch JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America. It is a History Channel documentary and will be shown again in two parts on Friday 10/16/09 at 8 PM (rerun at 12:01 am) and Saturday 10/17/09 at 8 pm (rerun 12:01 am).

Unlike most of the other documentaries on the subject, this is more of a video history of what occurred the full day of the killing and the days after. The creators piece together film from multiple sources (network, home movie, etc) from the landing in Ft Worth, through the killing of JFK and Oswald, the Ruby trial, and Warren investigation. The only narration is the original narration from the time period when the film was taken.

Overall, this was an excellent piece with a lot of footage I never saw before. The first part was really a video history of that full day and it was interesting to see the reaction of people hearing of the event for the first time. The second part had more of the conspiracy theory but it was still very entertaining.

I highly recommend checking this out, especially part 1.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:15 pm

I'll have to wait until it comes over to our History Channel but I'll definitely watch it
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby CarolinaTribe » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:42 pm

Thanks for the rec, I'll watch it on Fri or Sat.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:43 pm

People still think that assassination was a conspiracy.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby StewieG » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:53 pm

The first time it aired on Sunday, did it air all at once? I recorded it, but haven't gotten to it.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby jack_tors » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:40 pm

StewieG wrote:The first time it aired on Sunday, did it air all at once? I recorded it, but haven't gotten to it.


No, only Part 1 aired on Sunday. Part II was shown on Monday so you might want to record this Saturday's so you have the conclusion. Only way I knew about Part II was the advertisement they showed on Sunday during the show talking about the next installment. I thought it was a one day affair only as well..

As for the conspiracy, they show a lot of news reports talking about conspiracy including the making of Oliver Stone's JFK movie. It was interesting but there wasnt a lot new in this part of the show. Fortunately, it only took up about the last half hour or so of Part II.

With all the so called "experts" weighing in on the issue, its hard to tell whats true or not. Personally, I dont feel there was some massive government cover up to kill JFK but I have a hard time believing Lee Harvey did all this ALONE. Even Lyndon Johnson believed there was some kind of conspiracy and admitted so to Kronkite before his death. LBJ stopped short of saying who/why but there has to be something to it since LBJ had access to a hell of a lot of more information than we do.. Any discussion is probably all for not since we will never know what really happened, either way.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby Squints » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:38 pm

Thanks for that. Had no idea this was even on TV. Will definetley DVR. I am with Jack on this one, I find it hard to believe that Lee Harvey was the lone crazed gunman, too many holes in that theory, but whether it goes all the way up LBJ (not LeBron JB) I am not sure. Aren't the FBI files supposed to be open like in the next decade or two or has that been changed?

If I may add a branch to this thread- I would love to hear some of our older members accounts of that day/time period since most of us weren't around and did not live through it.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:42 pm

I think it was Oswald, and Oswald alone. Oswald fired 3 shots, the last two being direct hits. The ballistics from the rounds recovered matched that of Oswalds Carcano carbine rifle. he was a trained Marine and qualified as a Marksman. He had enough training and skill to do it.

As much as I loathe him, Oswald was a good shot, to get 2 hits on a moving target with that POS rifle is a amazing feat.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:48 pm

Squints wrote:Thanks for that. Had no idea this was even on TV. Will definetley DVR. I am with Jack on this one, I find it hard to believe that Lee Harvey was the lone crazed gunman, too many holes in that theory, but whether it goes all the way up LBJ (not LeBron JB) I am not sure. Aren't the FBI files supposed to be open like in the next decade or two or has that been changed?

If I may add a branch to this thread- I would love to hear some of our older members accounts of that day/time period since most of us weren't around and did not live through it.



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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby Bill the Butcher » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:27 pm

Thanks for the heads up, jack.

Bit of a tangent, but anybody else find the spooky connections between the JFK and the Lincoln assassinations pretty cool?

I'm a fan of conspiracy theories, but I do not create NOR side with the accepted truth or theory... just open to them.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:39 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I think it was Oswald, and Oswald alone. Oswald fired 3 shots, the last two being direct hits. The ballistics from the rounds recovered matched that of Oswalds Carcano carbine rifle. he was a trained Marine and qualified as a Marksman. He had enough training and skill to do it.

As much as I loathe him, Oswald was a good shot, to get 2 hits on a moving target with that POS rifle is a amazing feat.



If you believe that you've been brainwashed

with Oswald's background as a communist sympathizer, trying to defect into the Soviet Union and his time spent in Cuba and the military background and skill with a bolt action rifle it made him the perfect fall guy for the CIA or Cuban exiles who had been basically betrayed during the Bay of Pigs.

There was more than 1 gunman, dozens of people hurt shots from the 'grassy knoll'. Now if Zapruder had carried on the momentum of his camera as he videoed Kennedy's car speeding away after the shots were fired he would have caught the images of the grassy knoll on film and that whole theory could be proved or squashed.

The lone gunman theory is also repudiated due to the action of Kennedy's head as the round struck him. One such shot - which actually struck him in the right temple and is mentioned in the surgeons report but not by the Warren Commission or through any other Government outlet - throws his head back violently and is only a split second before the shot to the back of the head which is imprinted on everyone's mind who has seen Zapruder's video. Those two shots in rapid succession could not occur with a bolt action rifle.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby jb » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:19 am

I'm afraid to watch it.

If I do, the mafia will get me.

Or Castro operatives.

Or the military industrial complex worried I won't escalate in 'nam.

Or angry Cuban expatriots who were upset.

Someone will get me. It just won't be LHO acting alone.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:38 am

British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I think it was Oswald, and Oswald alone. Oswald fired 3 shots, the last two being direct hits. The ballistics from the rounds recovered matched that of Oswalds Carcano carbine rifle. he was a trained Marine and qualified as a Marksman. He had enough training and skill to do it.

As much as I loathe him, Oswald was a good shot, to get 2 hits on a moving target with that POS rifle is a amazing feat.



If you believe that you've been brainwashed

with Oswald's background as a communist sympathizer, trying to defect into the Soviet Union and his time spent in Cuba and the military background and skill with a bolt action rifle it made him the perfect fall guy for the CIA or Cuban exiles who had been basically betrayed during the Bay of Pigs.

There was more than 1 gunman, dozens of people hurt shots from the 'grassy knoll'. Now if Zapruder had carried on the momentum of his camera as he videoed Kennedy's car speeding away after the shots were fired he would have caught the images of the grassy knoll on film and that whole theory could be proved or squashed.

The lone gunman theory is also repudiated due to the action of Kennedy's head as the round struck him. One such shot - which actually struck him in the right temple and is mentioned in the surgeons report but not by the Warren Commission or through any other Government outlet - throws his head back violently and is only a split second before the shot to the back of the head which is imprinted on everyone's mind who has seen Zapruder's video. Those two shots in rapid succession could not occur with a bolt action rifle.


You're not even American, what do you know! (very tongue-in-cheek)

a rebuttal on the bullet physics by Duncan MacPherson, rocket scientist and author of the book Bullet Penetration

G: It is common knowledge that, as captured by Abraham Zapruder, President Kennedy's head and upper torso lurch energetically immediately following the explosion of his head. Could this movement have been caused by the directly transferred momentum of a bullet? That is, can a bullet "push" somebody like that?

MacP: No, and no. The movement of a body due to bullet momentum cannot be greater than the movement of the same body if it was holding the gun that fired the bullet. This is a result of elementary physics and is not disputed by anyone who understands physics. The major frustrating feature of the Kennedy assassination phenomenon is the willingness of people to pretend to talk authoritatively on subjects they know absolutely nothing about, especially things related to firearms. This body recoil is one favorite. Another is the "puff of smoke from the grassy knoll"; the theory here seems to be that someone shot Kennedy with a flintlock (modern firearms don't make a puff of smoke on firing as black powder rounds do).

G: If the effects observed on the Zapruder film are not the result of a direct "push" by a bullet, what could account for JFK's movements?

MacP: In general, body movement in response to nervous system trauma is a result of contractions in body muscles. This is related to movements of your leg when a doctor raps you on the knee with his little mallet; your leg moves because a nerve induces a muscle contraction, not because it was driven into motion by the force of the tiny rap with the mallet. The slightly peculiar location of Kennedy's arms after the 399 bullet impact is known as Thorburn's position, after a description by Dr. William Thorburn in an 1889 paper on injuries to the area of the spinal chord damaged by bullet 399. In addition to this effect, simulations have shown that bullet strikes to the skull that result in blowing out a significant hole upon exit result in skull recoil TOWARDS the bullet entry direction. The dynamics of this are a little complicated, but are more related to the pressure inside the skull cavity created by the bullet passage than to effects directly related to the bullet movement. The dynamics of this kind of impact were demonstrated independently in testing by Dr. Luis Alvarez and by Dr. John K. Lattimer et al.

G: Have you had a chance to review the JFK-related wound ballistics work of Drs. John Lattimer and Martin Fackler? If so, can you provide a brief critique?

MacP: I have read this work and have referred to it to look up Thorburn's name in the previous answer. The main aspect of the Kennedy assassination that would surprise most people is how uncontroversial the wound ballistics aspects are among the physicians in the country who are most experienced in gunshot trauma (I am not one of these, but have talked to several). It is a sad truth that most autopsy reports are full of errors and inconsistencies which are obvious to any careful review; it shouldn't be like this, but it is. The problems with the Kennedy autopsy do not require a conspiracy to explain, they are more or less business as usual exposed to the glare of careful examination. Likewise, the work of Lattimer and Fackler is simply a very sound, complete, and careful examination and reconstruction of that facts that should be the standard in all cases, but isn't.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/macpher.htm - this is a link to the interview with MacPherson
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm - this is the home website that debunks pretty much every part of every conspiracy related to the JFK assassination
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:06 pm

British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I think it was Oswald, and Oswald alone. Oswald fired 3 shots, the last two being direct hits. The ballistics from the rounds recovered matched that of Oswalds Carcano carbine rifle. he was a trained Marine and qualified as a Marksman. He had enough training and skill to do it.

As much as I loathe him, Oswald was a good shot, to get 2 hits on a moving target with that POS rifle is a amazing feat.



If you believe that you've been brainwashed

with Oswald's background as a communist sympathizer, trying to defect into the Soviet Union and his time spent in Cuba and the military background and skill with a bolt action rifle it made him the perfect fall guy for the CIA or Cuban exiles who had been basically betrayed during the Bay of Pigs.

There was more than 1 gunman, dozens of people hurt shots from the 'grassy knoll'. Now if Zapruder had carried on the momentum of his camera as he videoed Kennedy's car speeding away after the shots were fired he would have caught the images of the grassy knoll on film and that whole theory could be proved or squashed.

The lone gunman theory is also repudiated due to the action of Kennedy's head as the round struck him. One such shot - which actually struck him in the right temple and is mentioned in the surgeons report but not by the Warren Commission or through any other Government outlet - throws his head back violently and is only a split second before the shot to the back of the head which is imprinted on everyone's mind who has seen Zapruder's video. Those two shots in rapid succession could not occur with a bolt action rifle.



lol. "Brainwashed". Is believeing the evidence mean i'm brainwashed? Here I am thinking being brainwashed means believeing conspiracy theories with ZERO evidence supporting them. First it was the "magic bullet", which was dismissed do the dishonest nature of conspiracy nuts who always sat JFK and Connally on the same level inside the car. This was BS, Connally was sitting in a jump seat, which was placed lower and more inboard than Kennedy's rear seat.

Have you ever fired a bolt action rifle? Getting those shots off in the time alotted is not impractical at all. It's enough time to shoot and re aim. Having practiced with the Carcano, he could have been able to get off a 4th shot had he needed to.

Bottom line; There is no way the Goverment could've kept this a secret all these years. Too many people involved, too many people to keep quiet. At some point, if it was a conspiracy, someone would've come forward with evidence, that's a heavy burden to bear.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:12 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I think it was Oswald, and Oswald alone. Oswald fired 3 shots, the last two being direct hits. The ballistics from the rounds recovered matched that of Oswalds Carcano carbine rifle. he was a trained Marine and qualified as a Marksman. He had enough training and skill to do it.

As much as I loathe him, Oswald was a good shot, to get 2 hits on a moving target with that POS rifle is a amazing feat.



If you believe that you've been brainwashed

with Oswald's background as a communist sympathizer, trying to defect into the Soviet Union and his time spent in Cuba and the military background and skill with a bolt action rifle it made him the perfect fall guy for the CIA or Cuban exiles who had been basically betrayed during the Bay of Pigs.

There was more than 1 gunman, dozens of people hurt shots from the 'grassy knoll'. Now if Zapruder had carried on the momentum of his camera as he videoed Kennedy's car speeding away after the shots were fired he would have caught the images of the grassy knoll on film and that whole theory could be proved or squashed.

The lone gunman theory is also repudiated due to the action of Kennedy's head as the round struck him. One such shot - which actually struck him in the right temple and is mentioned in the surgeons report but not by the Warren Commission or through any other Government outlet - throws his head back violently and is only a split second before the shot to the back of the head which is imprinted on everyone's mind who has seen Zapruder's video. Those two shots in rapid succession could not occur with a bolt action rifle.



lol. "Brainwashed". Is believeing the evidence mean i'm brainwashed? Here I am thinking being brainwashed means believeing conspiracy theories with ZERO evidence supporting them. First it was the "magic bullet", which was dismissed do the dishonest nature of conspiracy nuts who always sat JFK and Connally on the same level inside the car. This was BS, Connally was sitting in a jump seat, which was placed lower and more inboard than Kennedy's rear seat.

Have you ever fired a bolt action rifle? Getting those shots off in the time alotted is not impractical at all. It's enough time to shoot and re aim. Having practiced with the Carcano, he could have been able to get off a 4th shot had he needed to.

Bottom line; There is no way the Goverment could've kept this a secret all these years. Too many people involved, too many people to keep quiet. At some point, if it was a conspiracy, someone would've come forward with evidence, that's a heavy burden to bear.



I was in the army so yes. Shoot and re-aim 3 shots in 6 seconds ok maybe but to hit a moving target twice out of those three shots at more the 200 feet away and connecting with a head shot you would need the assistance of Providence.

and no believing the evidence does not mean you're brainwashed, however you believe what the government spoon feeds you so yes you are a product of that 'great' American 'democracy'
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:19 pm

and no believing the evidence does not mean you're brainwashed, however you believe what the government spoon feeds you so yes you are a product of that 'great' American 'democracy'




There's probably never been more independent research done on a case than the JFK assassination. Nothing governmental about it. Aside from the conspiracy theorists, all the physicians and scientists that have studied the autopsy reports, zapruder film, bullet trajectories, everything, all come to the same conclusion.


The Browns tried to cover up K2's staph infection and that leaked out quicker than water into the Titanic. A conspiracy of this magnitude would require thousands, if not millions, of people to stay quiet.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby dpdad » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:26 pm

I've stood in at the sixth floor window of the school book depository (next to the shooter's window which is walled off in plexiglas), and the first thing that came into my mind was what an easy shot it would have been. I personally believe that Oswald acted alone. Gerald Posner wrote a terrific book (Case Closed) about 15 years ago that spells out quite clearly how Oswald could have fired all three shots.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby jb » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:31 pm

British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I think it was Oswald, and Oswald alone. Oswald fired 3 shots, the last two being direct hits. The ballistics from the rounds recovered matched that of Oswalds Carcano carbine rifle. he was a trained Marine and qualified as a Marksman. He had enough training and skill to do it.

As much as I loathe him, Oswald was a good shot, to get 2 hits on a moving target with that POS rifle is a amazing feat.



If you believe that you've been brainwashed

with Oswald's background as a communist sympathizer, trying to defect into the Soviet Union and his time spent in Cuba and the military background and skill with a bolt action rifle it made him the perfect fall guy for the CIA or Cuban exiles who had been basically betrayed during the Bay of Pigs.

There was more than 1 gunman, dozens of people hurt shots from the 'grassy knoll'. Now if Zapruder had carried on the momentum of his camera as he videoed Kennedy's car speeding away after the shots were fired he would have caught the images of the grassy knoll on film and that whole theory could be proved or squashed.

The lone gunman theory is also repudiated due to the action of Kennedy's head as the round struck him. One such shot - which actually struck him in the right temple and is mentioned in the surgeons report but not by the Warren Commission or through any other Government outlet - throws his head back violently and is only a split second before the shot to the back of the head which is imprinted on everyone's mind who has seen Zapruder's video. Those two shots in rapid succession could not occur with a bolt action rifle.



lol. "Brainwashed". Is believeing the evidence mean i'm brainwashed? Here I am thinking being brainwashed means believeing conspiracy theories with ZERO evidence supporting them. First it was the "magic bullet", which was dismissed do the dishonest nature of conspiracy nuts who always sat JFK and Connally on the same level inside the car. This was BS, Connally was sitting in a jump seat, which was placed lower and more inboard than Kennedy's rear seat.

Have you ever fired a bolt action rifle? Getting those shots off in the time alotted is not impractical at all. It's enough time to shoot and re aim. Having practiced with the Carcano, he could have been able to get off a 4th shot had he needed to.

Bottom line; There is no way the Goverment could've kept this a secret all these years. Too many people involved, too many people to keep quiet. At some point, if it was a conspiracy, someone would've come forward with evidence, that's a heavy burden to bear.



I was in the army so yes. Shoot and re-aim 3 shots in 6 seconds ok


Damn dude. You must have served up many Zulus in the day.

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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:57 pm

Lol I don't think that's the same

first of all Winslow was still alive lol secondly, there's no internet in the 60's and information wasn't leaked like it is today, and you can be compelled to stay quiet if you have the most powerful Government in the world and the most corrupt agencies (CIA for example) leaning on you.

To say there's no conspiracy because no one came out and told the world every single detail about what 'really happened' is ludicrous.

there's a myriad of conflicting information given by eyewitnesses, Kennedy aides most notably Clint Hill(the man you see climbing on the back of Kennedy's car) and especially in the surgeons(who operated on the President) report.
Even Lyndon Johnson himself never believed the Warren Commission and he was the man privy to all kinds of information when he became President, even agreeing to help Robert Kennedy (a man he had a certain enmity towards) solve the mystery surrounding his brothers death(even if some conspiracy theorists try and cite LBJ as a possible instigator of the assassination and he would become the biggest beneficiary in such an occurrence) . RFK never stopped believing there was more to his brothers death and fought to his dying day to uncover the truth. One of the only reasons he ran for the Presidency (and the reason of which I am sure he was murdered) I mean the brothers had made so many enemies with their foreign policy on Cuba, their war on organised crime and their distaste for J Edgar Hoover and the CIA and it's rogue like operations. That to dismiss conspiracy theorists flat out is just ignorant and lazy. Ok you could say come theories partly rest on the facts they had so many enemies but that doesn't take away from their certain degree of validity.
All the accounts and evidence already given to create the possibility of a conspiracy is compounded by Jack Ruby's murder of LHO.
Ruby had ties with the Mafia, (an enemy of the Kennedy's for many reasons such as the Kennedy Administrations fearless enterprise of taking on organised crime, the case involving Jimmy Hoffa and the hostility that arose after Kennedy won the Presidency. Joe Kennedy snr had dealt with the Mafia to help his son become president particularly in winning the state of Illinois which was an important swing state. The Kennedy's didn't live up to their end of the deal once Kennedy was inaugurated) cant be ignored, LHO always pleaded his innocence, saying he was a 'patsy' ok you wouldn't use this as evidence that there's a conspiracy but when you're a Communist and a nobody and you assassinate the anti-communist President you don't deny it as vehemently as he did.

Are we also conveniently forgetting the official investigation by the House Select Committee on Assassinations which came to the conclusion that Kennedy was assassinated as a result of a (albeit) probable conspiracy?

The Warren Commission omitted a lot of evidence that would leave the door wide open to other possible conclusions and by no means is an authority on the actual happenings of that day.


Sorry if my text isn't particularly articulate but everything is coming to me so quickly I'm not having much time to structure it all
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:58 pm

JB wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I think it was Oswald, and Oswald alone. Oswald fired 3 shots, the last two being direct hits. The ballistics from the rounds recovered matched that of Oswalds Carcano carbine rifle. he was a trained Marine and qualified as a Marksman. He had enough training and skill to do it.

As much as I loathe him, Oswald was a good shot, to get 2 hits on a moving target with that POS rifle is a amazing feat.



If you believe that you've been brainwashed

with Oswald's background as a communist sympathizer, trying to defect into the Soviet Union and his time spent in Cuba and the military background and skill with a bolt action rifle it made him the perfect fall guy for the CIA or Cuban exiles who had been basically betrayed during the Bay of Pigs.

There was more than 1 gunman, dozens of people hurt shots from the 'grassy knoll'. Now if Zapruder had carried on the momentum of his camera as he videoed Kennedy's car speeding away after the shots were fired he would have caught the images of the grassy knoll on film and that whole theory could be proved or squashed.

The lone gunman theory is also repudiated due to the action of Kennedy's head as the round struck him. One such shot - which actually struck him in the right temple and is mentioned in the surgeons report but not by the Warren Commission or through any other Government outlet - throws his head back violently and is only a split second before the shot to the back of the head which is imprinted on everyone's mind who has seen Zapruder's video. Those two shots in rapid succession could not occur with a bolt action rifle.



lol. "Brainwashed". Is believeing the evidence mean i'm brainwashed? Here I am thinking being brainwashed means believeing conspiracy theories with ZERO evidence supporting them. First it was the "magic bullet", which was dismissed do the dishonest nature of conspiracy nuts who always sat JFK and Connally on the same level inside the car. This was BS, Connally was sitting in a jump seat, which was placed lower and more inboard than Kennedy's rear seat.

Have you ever fired a bolt action rifle? Getting those shots off in the time alotted is not impractical at all. It's enough time to shoot and re aim. Having practiced with the Carcano, he could have been able to get off a 4th shot had he needed to.

Bottom line; There is no way the Goverment could've kept this a secret all these years. Too many people involved, too many people to keep quiet. At some point, if it was a conspiracy, someone would've come forward with evidence, that's a heavy burden to bear.



I was in the army so yes. Shoot and re-aim 3 shots in 6 seconds ok


Damn dude. You must have served up many Zulus in the day.

You ever meet Oliver Cromwell or Lord Kitchener?



during training you don't just fire the issued SA80, you fire all sorts of weapons from MG42's from WW2 to old style carbines
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:00 pm

JB wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I think it was Oswald, and Oswald alone. Oswald fired 3 shots, the last two being direct hits. The ballistics from the rounds recovered matched that of Oswalds Carcano carbine rifle. he was a trained Marine and qualified as a Marksman. He had enough training and skill to do it.

As much as I loathe him, Oswald was a good shot, to get 2 hits on a moving target with that POS rifle is a amazing feat.



If you believe that you've been brainwashed

with Oswald's background as a communist sympathizer, trying to defect into the Soviet Union and his time spent in Cuba and the military background and skill with a bolt action rifle it made him the perfect fall guy for the CIA or Cuban exiles who had been basically betrayed during the Bay of Pigs.

There was more than 1 gunman, dozens of people hurt shots from the 'grassy knoll'. Now if Zapruder had carried on the momentum of his camera as he videoed Kennedy's car speeding away after the shots were fired he would have caught the images of the grassy knoll on film and that whole theory could be proved or squashed.

The lone gunman theory is also repudiated due to the action of Kennedy's head as the round struck him. One such shot - which actually struck him in the right temple and is mentioned in the surgeons report but not by the Warren Commission or through any other Government outlet - throws his head back violently and is only a split second before the shot to the back of the head which is imprinted on everyone's mind who has seen Zapruder's video. Those two shots in rapid succession could not occur with a bolt action rifle.



lol. "Brainwashed". Is believeing the evidence mean i'm brainwashed? Here I am thinking being brainwashed means believeing conspiracy theories with ZERO evidence supporting them. First it was the "magic bullet", which was dismissed do the dishonest nature of conspiracy nuts who always sat JFK and Connally on the same level inside the car. This was BS, Connally was sitting in a jump seat, which was placed lower and more inboard than Kennedy's rear seat.

Have you ever fired a bolt action rifle? Getting those shots off in the time alotted is not impractical at all. It's enough time to shoot and re aim. Having practiced with the Carcano, he could have been able to get off a 4th shot had he needed to.

Bottom line; There is no way the Goverment could've kept this a secret all these years. Too many people involved, too many people to keep quiet. At some point, if it was a conspiracy, someone would've come forward with evidence, that's a heavy burden to bear.



I was in the army so yes. Shoot and re-aim 3 shots in 6 seconds ok


Damn dude. You must have served up many Zulus in the day.

You ever meet Oliver Cromwell or Lord Kitchener?


and another thing history hot shot, in the time of Oliver Cromwell they were still using muzzle loaded muskets.

smart arsed, sarcastic jerk
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:08 pm

British_Pharaoh wrote:
I was in the army so yes. Shoot and re-aim 3 shots in 6 seconds ok maybe but to hit a moving target twice out of those three shots at more the 200 feet away and connecting with a head shot you would need the assistance of Providence.

and no believing the evidence does not mean you're brainwashed, however you believe what the government spoon feeds you so yes you are a product of that 'great' American 'democracy'


You were trained on the L85/SA-80, right? That's a pile of a rifle.

Oswald had 8 seconds not 6. That's another line the conspiracy nuts like to sell. If he got lucky, then he got lucky, the outcome was the same. I think it was his training and skill as a shooter.

And BTW, the Goverment hasn't spoon fed me anything, that's just your paranoid anti American side talking. I've read books by both sides, the non conspiracy side has all the evidence.

There were 2 wounds to JFK, one to the back around the shoulder blade, the second to the back of the head. How would a gunman on the knoll hit JFK in the back if he was coming towards him? That would require a "magic" bullet.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:15 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
I was in the army so yes. Shoot and re-aim 3 shots in 6 seconds ok maybe but to hit a moving target twice out of those three shots at more the 200 feet away and connecting with a head shot you would need the assistance of Providence.

and no believing the evidence does not mean you're brainwashed, however you believe what the government spoon feeds you so yes you are a product of that 'great' American 'democracy'


You were trained on the L85/SA-80, right? That's a pile of a rifle.

Oswald had 8 seconds not 6. That's another line the conspiracy nuts like to sell. If he got lucky, then he got lucky, the outcome was the same. I think it was his training and skill as a shooter.

And BTW, the Goverment hasn't spoon fed me anything, that's just your paranoid anti American side talking. I've read books by both sides, the non conspiracy side has all the evidence.

There were 2 wounds to JFK, one to the back around the shoulder blade, the second to the back of the head. How would a gunman on the knoll hit JFK in the back if he was coming towards him? That would require a "magic" bullet.


One thing you've got right regarding the SA80

Like I said in an earlier post that you obviously didn't read properly
the surgeon who operated recorded that Kennedy had also been hit just above the right temple (a glaring omission among many others in the Warren Commission) making the grassy knoll gunman a reality.

Why the hell am I anti-American?? just because I question the Government and the the information it promulgates??
You Americans are the paranoid ones. Whenever someone justly criticises or reproaches you or your government you immediately label them as anti american.

Doesn't matter that I embrace your sports, have relatives in Cleveland and hope to teach there one day.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:40 pm

The surgeon doesn't know what he was talking about, or it's been distorted by people who want there to be a conspiracy. I think it's easier for people (mostly Americans) to think there was some grand plot to kill a beloved man in his prime. As opposed to him being killed by some disgruntled asshole.

He was shot twice.

One in the back, that hit Connally

Once in the back of the head.

There is no way you can be shot in the temple and have a exit wound on the the same side. In the Zapruder film you see a massive wound cause by an exiting bullet above his temple. If he had been shot in the temple he would have a small entry wound and the exit wound would be on the opposite side. The entry wound is in the back of JFK's head. If he was shot in the side of the head, how does he have a entry wound in the back of his skull? Bullets leave small wounds going in and huge holes going out since they expand on their way through a target. That's exactly what JFK has, small entry, large exit.

Bullets don't cause huge entry wounds and small exit wounds, it's not how they work.

And I was wrong to say you're anti American, I think you just assume we all buy what the Goverment sells us, which couldn't be futher from the truth.

And I think you give the US Goverment too much credit. There is no way in hell they could this a secret for this long. It's the same thing I tell the 9/11 Truthers, the US Goverment couldn't cover up the break in at the Watergate, what chance do they have of covering up the murder of a President?
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby StewieG » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:04 pm

Personally, I tend to believe the evidence over the conspiracy theory. There certainly are questions that can be asked of the evidence that Oswald acted alone, but overwhelmingly, my brain tells me that Oswald did, in fact, act alone.

But the thing that convinces me more than anything else is money. What I mean by that is if there was a coverup, then there are many people who know about it. There's also evidence to prove a coverup. And if someone can come forward with proof of a conspiracy, then there is a lot of fucking money in it for them. Maybe one or two people can be convinced to stay quiet. But the number of people that would have to have knowledge of a coverup this big would easily be in the hundreds. You're telling me not one person has come forward after all this time to sign a book deal, or something similar? That I don't buy. Greed is a very powerful motivator. Someone would take the chance, even if they were threatened.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby olecowboy » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:42 pm

"I was in the army so yes. Shoot and re-aim 3 shots in 6 seconds ok maybe but to hit a moving target twice out of those three shots at more the 200 feet away and connecting with a head shot you would need the assistance of Providence."



dude, all due respect, he was firing a scoped rifle from a braced position at a target less that 100 yards away moving down and away. And it was 7.2 seconds, the first round was chambered, so you are only running the bolt for two shots. I could have done it. Any decent hunter could have done it. Oswald was the lone shooter, "Case Closed."
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:03 am

dpdad wrote:I've stood in at the sixth floor window of the school book depository (next to the shooter's window which is walled off in plexiglas), and the first thing that came into my mind was what an easy shot it would have been. I personally believe that Oswald acted alone. Gerald Posner wrote a terrific book (Case Closed) about 15 years ago that spells out quite clearly how Oswald could have fired all three shots.


I thought the very most interesting thing about visiting the book depository was just how small the entire area actually is, and how close Oswald actually was from that point.

They would have had to kill EVRYONE involved by now, cause your talking MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of dollars left on the table.

The facts lie with Oswald, the conjecture lies with the conspiracy.

If this makes me "a sheep for the government" well, I'm comfortable with that.

Conspiracy theory on this topic is grat business for some. Books, major motion pictures, hell, there are still cats outside the Depository every day that'll give you a ride around in a Kennedy replica limo and feed you their theories, for a fee of course.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby olecowboy » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:19 am

yeah, people who say that oswald could not have done it have never stood in that spot and seen just how easy a shot it actually was. . .

and after all these years, other than theory and conjecture, not one shred of actual evidence that anyone else was ever involved.
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby jb » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:37 am

British_Pharaoh wrote:
JB wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I think it was Oswald, and Oswald alone. Oswald fired 3 shots, the last two being direct hits. The ballistics from the rounds recovered matched that of Oswalds Carcano carbine rifle. he was a trained Marine and qualified as a Marksman. He had enough training and skill to do it.

As much as I loathe him, Oswald was a good shot, to get 2 hits on a moving target with that POS rifle is a amazing feat.



If you believe that you've been brainwashed

with Oswald's background as a communist sympathizer, trying to defect into the Soviet Union and his time spent in Cuba and the military background and skill with a bolt action rifle it made him the perfect fall guy for the CIA or Cuban exiles who had been basically betrayed during the Bay of Pigs.

There was more than 1 gunman, dozens of people hurt shots from the 'grassy knoll'. Now if Zapruder had carried on the momentum of his camera as he videoed Kennedy's car speeding away after the shots were fired he would have caught the images of the grassy knoll on film and that whole theory could be proved or squashed.

The lone gunman theory is also repudiated due to the action of Kennedy's head as the round struck him. One such shot - which actually struck him in the right temple and is mentioned in the surgeons report but not by the Warren Commission or through any other Government outlet - throws his head back violently and is only a split second before the shot to the back of the head which is imprinted on everyone's mind who has seen Zapruder's video. Those two shots in rapid succession could not occur with a bolt action rifle.



lol. "Brainwashed". Is believeing the evidence mean i'm brainwashed? Here I am thinking being brainwashed means believeing conspiracy theories with ZERO evidence supporting them. First it was the "magic bullet", which was dismissed do the dishonest nature of conspiracy nuts who always sat JFK and Connally on the same level inside the car. This was BS, Connally was sitting in a jump seat, which was placed lower and more inboard than Kennedy's rear seat.

Have you ever fired a bolt action rifle? Getting those shots off in the time alotted is not impractical at all. It's enough time to shoot and re aim. Having practiced with the Carcano, he could have been able to get off a 4th shot had he needed to.

Bottom line; There is no way the Goverment could've kept this a secret all these years. Too many people involved, too many people to keep quiet. At some point, if it was a conspiracy, someone would've come forward with evidence, that's a heavy burden to bear.



I was in the army so yes. Shoot and re-aim 3 shots in 6 seconds ok


Damn dude. You must have served up many Zulus in the day.

You ever meet Oliver Cromwell or Lord Kitchener?


and another thing history hot shot, in the time of Oliver Cromwell they were still using muzzle loaded muskets.

smart arsed, sarcastic jerk



Were you brohams aka mates with any pikeman ?
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby jb » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:39 am

British_Pharaoh wrote:
Why the hell am I anti-American??


Because your fridge is too small and you like warm beer?
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:43 am

JB wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
Why the hell am I anti-American??


Because your fridge is too small and you like warm beer?



fridge is quite a decent size actually

but I bet anyone who doesn't have a pretentious ice cube dispenser is a peasant to you.

and we do drink cold beer here
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Re: JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:56 am

This will be in No holds Barred by end of the night.

IMO the dumbest conspiracy argument of all, for both sides. So much original evidence and documentation scrapped/missing, files sealed, a dozen different professional opinions etc...

The Immaculate Reception is worth arguing over more than this.

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