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The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

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The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:44 am

Fans are tired of it.

The Browns — in particular owner Randy Lerner — should pay close attention to the upcoming season, because the team is on the cusp of witnessing fan apathy.

The Browns are on the verge of losing an entire generation of fans to the NBA.

Laugh all you want.

If I were Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert, I would love the position I'm in right now.

The perfect storm of good fortune surrounds his team. A local kid — Akron's own LeBron James — leads the team. They've finally put the talent around him — Mo Williams, Delonte West and others — to make this team one of the three best in the NBA.

The Cavs represent Cleveland's best hope for winning a major title since the 1997 Indians.

Look at the actions of that younger generation. Pay attention to them. I not only pay attention, but I also subsidize a member of the current crop of America's youth.

Browns gear? They don't know what that is. In fact, they don't even want to know what that is. Look around at the area's young sports fans. Their jerseys say ''James,'' ''Ilgauskas,'' ''Gibson'' and ''Williams.''

How often do you see a
Browns sweat shirt or jersey on someone in that group? There's only one marketable name — Brady Quinn — on a team that is rebuilding again and rolling out the promises of making the Browns into the team that this area deserves.

The problem: The area already has a team it deserves — the Cavs.


http://www.ohio.com/sports/cavs/42314402.html

I'm a Browns honk and I auctually agree with this article. Though, I think you could add that a good percentage of my generation are still football fans....just of a team that represents all that is vile and evil just east of us. :gah:

Before the inevitable "SUCK IT BROWNS FAN" post comes, I happen to agree that the Cavs are everything at this moment that the Browns are not. Since I've been alive, I've been around for ONE division title in my lifetime, and only three playoff apperances, and I only remember one. Since I was really old enough to have followed the Brownies I can only pretty much recall these highlites off of the top of my head:

-The Browns move
-The Browns come back and get beat down by the Inbred on Nat'l TV
-The Browns beat the Saints on a Hail Mary
-The drafting of Tim Couch, Courtney Brown, Gerard Warren, Willy Green
-Ty Detmer,Tim Couch, Spergon Wynn, Kelly Holcomb, Jeff Garcia, Trent Dilfer,Charlie Frye, Derek Anderson, Bruce Gradkowski all have been starting QB's for us within in the span of ten years.
-Bottlegate
-"Run William Run"
-Holcomb putting up a NFL record only to lose to the Inbred in the playoffs
-Couch's last hurrah beating the Inbred 33-13
-The Inbred drafting a Ohio Kid who is some hellish fairweather fat Elway.
-Losing to the Inbred 9 straight times since '03.
-The Steelers winning TWO super bowl titles
-Drafting Joe Thomas and Brady Quinn
-The 10-6 '07 season
-Cribbs is a beast.
-Braylon dropping TD passes.
-Bizzaro Browns show up and Beat down the Giants on MNF
-Staph, Staph and more staph
-Phil: "F.U. got root for Buffalo"
-Fans chanting "Cowher" after getting BEAT BY THE HOUSTON TEXANS.
-Hiring another coach off of the Belichick coaching tree.
-Trading our Pro Bowl tightend away

Take it for what it is but that's what kids from my generation pretty much remeber this team doing, compare that to the LeBron era for the Cavs and it's not even close.

All it would take Mangini to do get the fanbase back to what it was and get the younger folks who aren't diehards like myself and others pumped would be to be competitive and to beat the Inbred once in a while. But does anyone see that happening?
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby jb » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:48 am

LOL. That's like the tornado siren going off after the town is flat.

The Browns aren't "In danger" , the deed has been done, the deal gone down.

Except sadly, they didn't lose the young generation of fans to the Cavs. They lost them to the franchise 200 miles to the southeast.

The only young Browns fans are those with old school fanatical Browns' fan fathers.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Guest » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:48 am

And then the Cavs crash and burn in the playoffs, the Indians finish 4th in the Central, LeBron leaves in 2010, and a whole generation of fans will toss aside all 3 Cleveland teams in favor of the Steelers, the Yankees, and the Lakers.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:54 am

JB wrote:LOL. That's like the tornado siren going off after the town is flat.

The Browns aren't "In danger" , the deed has been done, the deal gone down.

Except sadly, they didn't lose the young generation of fans to the Cavs. They lost them to the franchise 200 miles to the southeast.

The only young Browns fans are those with old school fanatical Browns' fan fathers.


pretty much.

Only Browns fans in my high school a few years back were the athletes who like you said, had dads that followed the team.

Nothing like wanting to vomit at the local Dairy Queen last night to see a Terrible Towel hanging up on the ceiling, but such is life I guess :(

You think the Browns will ever get control back of the city or have they pretty much lost it to be split with the Inbred?
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Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Guest » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:59 am

Triple-S wrote:You think the Browns will ever get control back of the city or have they pretty much lost it to be split with the Inbred?


Nothing is forever.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby StewieG » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:04 am

If the Browns can find a period of sustained success (which is to say, more than the 1 year flash-in-the-pan, or 3 year decent run)...but if they can start fielding competitive teams year-in, and year-out, then you'll see the trend start to reverse. But the Browns haven't been overly relevant since the late 80's. Since 1989, we've won double-digit games twice, and been to the playoffs twice. In 20 years. And yes, granted 3 of those years we didn't exist, and you can give the team a pass for 3 or 4 years since then due to being a poorly-run expansion team. But now we're just poorly run. We're the Arizona Cardinals. We don't draft well, we throw away money at free agents way too often, and we consistently get beat by division opponents.

I'm still a Browns fan. I still root for success. But damn. Getting embarrassed every week is getting old.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby General » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:06 am

I hate the Cavs and the NBA. But I am sick of the Browns sucking and looking like the Steelers of the 50's and 60's.



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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:18 am

JB wrote:LOL. That's like the tornado siren going off after the town is flat.

The Browns aren't "In danger" , the deed has been done, the deal gone down.

Except sadly, they didn't lose the young generation of fans to the Cavs. They lost them to the franchise 200 miles to the southeast.

The only young Browns fans are those with old school fanatical Browns' fan fathers.


Pluto write this?

Looks lazy enough to be his.

"Becoming" is an amusing way to put it.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby mistero » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:19 am

I'm a one league guy. The Browns are all I got. I got no where else to go.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby yogi » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:05 pm

Man, you guys are depressing.

How about getting another "Guys we hate the most" thread going?

I'm only half-joking here....... :bag:
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby bw » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:06 pm

Al Lerner bought the Browns for no reason other to help out the City of Cleveland, IMO. For that, he should have a Statue. Seriously.

The League was not happy about Cleveland demanding and getting a new team so they forced Lerner's hand and we ended up with Carmine. Who knows next to nothing about football -- He was a money-man and probably a good one. DeWight knew even less. And Al Lerner was clueless. He was a brilliant man but he knew nothing about football.

He got sold a bill of goods by Carmine and the NFL. We got started on completely the wrong foot with management and we got seriously screwed with the draft picks the League gave us. Another story.

I think the ship was being 'righted' with Savage (kill me later) but he still wasn't winning for whatever reason. I think it was because the power structure was too fragmented. No central authority. Too much in-fighting, too much rice-bowl-guarding. And too little forgeting that you build a football team from the inside out.

It all starts on the LOS folks. If you look at how Carolina and especially Jacksonville built their teams in the drafts, it's clear that we went in the opposite direction. The one that ends in failure. Yeah, I know Jax kinda sucked last year, but they had even more injuries than we did. Which is hard to believe. They'll be back.

The question is -- When will we realize that you build your team from the inside - out? I think Savage understood this. I think he was correct to sign LeChuck, draft Joe Thomas and trade for Big Baby and Corey Williams. But it was stupid of him to draft Cam Ranh Wimbley while passing on a Pro Bowl NT. Stupid and inexcusable. That alone was reason enough to fire him. But he didn't repeat his mistakes, at least. Did he?

We're not that far away, people. Believe me on that one. We're really not. A couple good draft picks, a couple good FA signings and we're ready to rock.

We shall see. I have high hopes for this year if the Browns draft intelligently (ie: How I think they should). If they draft a LBer with the #5 overall I'll go out of my mind. JB can tell you how against it I was when they got Cam Ranh. Don't hate the kid, just sayin'. And K2? Again, I was pulling for Roy Williams but da Bitcher traded away a high (very high) 2nd rounder to snag an inferior football player!! Anybody else notice what Dee-troit got for Roy compared to what we got for K2?

The stupid drafting has to stop and it has to stop this year. We shall see what we shall see.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby jordan kramer » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:19 pm

they deserve to be at best 3rd fiddle. if the AFL season wasn't canceled the browns shoulda been 4th fiddle. if the Lake Erie Monsters finish with a winning record the Browns should be 5th fiddle
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Bill the Butcher » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:59 am

By request, I am throwing in my 2 cents in regards to the current situation of our beloved Browns and their fans... a.k.a. US.

I'm a young'n. I'm 22 years old and didn't really start following the Browns until I was in high school. That's not to say I didn't know what was going on... I remember Kosar, I remember the move, I remember them coming back, and I remember them being terrible ever since (am I being a snotty Cavalier fan? nope. I'm just stating the fact).

Most of you older folks have it different than us younger generation. You actually watched them in the 80s when they were pretty damn good. You know that the team experienced great success. You know what it felt like. You remember that. So maybe in the back of your minds you're thinking you might... just might... be able to experience that again.

My generation = totally different. As we were growing up, the team was (and still is) the definition of pathetic. We have almost nothing to hang on to. We don't know what Browns success feels like. We know that they DID experience it, but we didn't experience it ourselves. So, like some has mentioned before, we like and watch the Browns because our fathers did (my father really didn't, my parents were immigrants, I started watching the Browns because my friends did). But if your fan-ticity just comes from that, it's easier to just throw the team aside when they start letting you down.

Even though my father was an immigrant and didn't really follow the Browns, he followed the Cavaliers. Basketball is the one and only sport you'll find in the Philippines... that and billiards (LOL), so naturally he followed the NBA team. And naturally, I like and watch the Cavaliers because my father did. I don't quite remember the old days -- Price, Daugherty, Nance, Hot Rod, and Wilkens -- but I know who they are, because of my father. Then came the 90s of darkness. Because I didn't experience the success of Price, Daugherty, etc., it was easy for me to not really care. "Oh, they suck. Okay. Go Tribe!" Now, the Cavaliers are the top 3 teams in the NBA, have experienced success and growth (unlike the Browns) over the past years since the LeBron draft, and will most likely experience more success and growth for the next 5 or so years.

I'm in the moment right now with my Cavs... much like you big Browns fans back in the 80s. In the future, when the Cavs are terrible again (gosh forbid), it's going to be hard for me to let go because I experienced, I felt it, and I remember it. While the young generation at that time will throw them aside and begin rooting for any one of the other two teams.

So... yeah. That's how I see it.

BTW -- Some of you may think I'm a big Browns hater. Yeah, I guess I may be. But I just like to make fun of them. It's kind of hard not to when my team is elite while the other is annually jumping off a cliff (I feel lucky and very fortunate that my favorite team is almost at its best). But there's a line between love and like. Even though my father didn't watch them or even though they suck right now, I'm always going to love the Browns... that doesn't mean I have to like them right now.

BTWW -- I have a Browns hat that I wear very often. After reading the previous posts, I feel proud to be a part of the younger generation that actually has gear. :yes:

Go Cavs. Go Browns. Go Tribe. (in that order ;-) ;) :wink: )
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:22 am

Haven't posted in a couple of months, but damn Bill, that was good reading. I'm 23 and have eerily similar feelings about my teams to the scene you described.

Rock a Browns hat constantly myself too.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Hydra Melee » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:29 am

Thoughts on losing younger Browns fans to Steelers = That OSU Cooper fella vs. Michigan. All the kids were were pulling for Blue and Yella, and then Mr. Tressel came along. (temporary?) End of story.

I am also a young enough Browns fan that I remember them being bad more than I remember them being good, but I don't cheer for them because I want to cheer for a winner. I cheer for them out of a sense of regional pride. I like Northeast Ohio, and I like cheering for a team that represents me.

I travel around a lot, and when people hear I'm from Cleveland they (used to, at least) bring up the Browns. If someone were to ask me about the Browns I would be ashamed to reply "Yeah, but I don't really care them. I'm a Steelers fan."
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:34 am

bw wrote:Al Lerner bought the Browns for no reason other to help out the City of Cleveland, IMO. For that, he should have a Statue. Seriously.



Nope.

Either one of three motivating factors

1 ) Guity conscience. he is partially resposnible for brojering the deal w/ B-more. Complicit with bad advice & resources to Modell at best, king maker at worst.

2 ) He wanted to enter the league and played a chess game like Bobby Fisher. he knew he'd get the next C-town franchise and it's value would skyrocket. He played Ary like a stratovarious and it was a win - win for those two. Modell got out of debt and Al got into the GROC .

3 ) I doubt this one, but MBNA got a black eye PR wise that hit bottom line somewhat. I remeber that they used to do a lot of telemarketing. I actually got a phone call from MBNA soliticing me for a Visa and whan I said, "Stop an dtake me off yourlist, I want nothing to do with Art Modell's freind Al Lerner" I was told by some telemarketer in Bangalore or somewhere "Oh, is this about that football thing again? I've been getting alot of that. "

But altruism is just to Pollyana. These guys all have agendas.

Now Randy? I think he's more altrusitic than his father. I think he sees this as his father's legacy and unfinsihed work and can't stand that the Browns are a very public failure. He's just not that into them.

If you look at how Carolina and especially Jacksonville built their teams in the drafts,


They did?

I thought they built their teams initially via free agency. Sure, Jax took Boselli but Carolina went with a rookie QB.

Sound familiar?

The difference there for the 1.0 version of those franchises was that the 93 CBA freed up a shitload of talent becasue no one could manage the cap, and those franchises had YEARS to prepare.

LOS ? Hell, what were our 2nd and 3rd year number one's , punters?

Where we messed up was BAD drafting.

If KJ and JJD were hits, you never take Cutt. Etc.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby waborat » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:49 am

JB wrote:
bw wrote:Al Lerner bought the Browns for no reason other to help out the City of Cleveland, IMO. For that, he should have a Statue. Seriously.



Nope.

Either one of three motivating factors

1 ) Guity conscience. he is partially resposnible for brojering the deal w/ B-more. Complicit with bad advice & resources to Modell at best, king maker at worst.

2 ) He wanted to enter the league and played a chess game like Bobby Fisher. he knew he'd get the next C-town franchise and it's value would skyrocket. He played Ary like a stratovarious and it was a win - win for those two. Modell got out of debt and Al got into the GROC .

3 ) I doubt this one, but MBNA got a black eye PR wise that hit bottom line somewhat. I remeber that they used to do a lot of telemarketing. I actually got a phone call from MBNA soliticing me for a Visa and whan I said, "Stop an dtake me off yourlist, I want nothing to do with Art Modell's freind Al Lerner" I was told by some telemarketer in Bangalore or somewhere "Oh, is this about that football thing again? I've been getting alot of that. "

But altruism is just to Pollyana. These guys all have agendas.



Horse Muffins, BW...

The Brotherhood knew Lerner had the most mulla to get into their private faction and made sure Dolan, Millstein, etc never had a chance for their hazing rituals
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby bw » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:56 am

JB wrote:
bw wrote:Al Lerner bought the Browns for no reason other to help out the City of Cleveland, IMO. For that, he should have a Statue. Seriously.



Nope.

Either one of three motivating factors

1 ) Guity conscience. he is partially resposnible for brojering the deal w/ B-more. Complicit with bad advice & resources to Modell at best, king maker at worst.

2 ) He wanted to enter the league and played a chess game like Bobby Fisher. he knew he'd get the next C-town franchise and it's value would skyrocket. He played Ary like a stratovarious and it was a win - win for those two. Modell got out of debt and Al got into the GROC .

3 ) I doubt this one, but MBNA got a black eye PR wise that hit bottom line somewhat. I remeber that they used to do a lot of telemarketing. I actually got a phone call from MBNA soliticing me for a Visa and whan I said, "Stop an dtake me off yourlist, I want nothing to do with Art Modell's freind Al Lerner" I was told by some telemarketer in Bangalore or somewhere "Oh, is this about that football thing again? I've been getting alot of that. "

But altruism is just to Pollyana. These guys all have agendas.

Now Randy? I think he's more altrusitic than his father. I think he sees this as his father's legacy and unfinsihed work and can't stand that the Browns are a very public failure. He's just not that into them.



JB, I understand your anger and that you were one of the originals on that other board. You go back a long way with the Browns and the move.

But your anger needs to be tempered these days with a little more objective look at how things went down.

Municipal Stadium was a League joke. It was just terrible. Cleveland was footing the bill for a Rock & Roll HOF, the Cavs, the Jake and the thing that made Cleveland rock was being ignored -- The Browns.

I'm not making excuses for Modell. He was an asswipe and he brought his financial woes on himself. But the powers-that-be in Cleveland had no thoughts on helping the Browns with a new Stadium, they just didn't care about Modell and the Browns. And the League damned sure didn't care.

Living 1,200 miles from Cleveland, I can tell you that most people outside of Cleveland understand these things. I was talking to a guy from Cleveland back in '92-93 and I asked about the possible floating of a bond for the Browns or the raising of the sales tax. He told me that the Browns could F themselves and the people of the area felt the same way. It was true, JB. Nobody had any sympathy for the Browns or Modell and nobody wanted to help. Especially the politicans. They were too busy buying votes.

Sure, Miami, NY, Boston, Dallas and some other areas could do cool things for their teams but these were "BIG" Markets. And this may come as a surprise to you, but Cleveland is NOT a 'big' market. And it is especially not a Wealthy Market.

Modell couldn't charge what the Giants charge. No way he could get what Dallas got for tickets. Add to that the fact that these other Cities and areas actually Helped their teams and Modell just said, "Fuck it, I'm outta here."

To this day, I just don't get the hostility directed at the Browns. Even now. It's like if they don't make the playoffs, have a winning record, people hate them. Irrational. Isn't there a "Second Fiddle" thread going on right now? Think so.

Yeah, right now we suck. But the FO seems to care. The owner cares, IMO. The fact that they don't have the experience or expertise, that they make mistakes, is understandable.

When "The Return" came about, you need to remember something -- NOBODY wanted to work for the New Browns. Nobody wanted to coach, nobody wanted FO positions, scouting etc. All suffered.

Channel your anger at the politicians who let all this happen. They're supposed to take of things like that instead of looking out only for themselves.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:06 pm

Also young'ish 26, and fall under the, dad was a fanatical Browns fan so I am, career path. I'll say they suck to other BROWNS fans, but I'll die of exhaustion defending them against other teams fans. The only Cleveland team I could give a crap about is th Indians... It is just far too boring, the economics/lack of salary cap, and well, I cannot stand Wedge.

However I am a 100% homer, and throw verbal insults at Clevelander's who support teams other then their own.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:46 pm

bw wrote:
JB wrote:
bw wrote:Al Lerner bought the Browns for no reason other to help out the City of Cleveland, IMO. For that, he should have a Statue. Seriously.



Nope.

Either one of three motivating factors

1 ) Guity conscience. he is partially resposnible for brojering the deal w/ B-more. Complicit with bad advice & resources to Modell at best, king maker at worst.

2 ) He wanted to enter the league and played a chess game like Bobby Fisher. he knew he'd get the next C-town franchise and it's value would skyrocket. He played Ary like a stratovarious and it was a win - win for those two. Modell got out of debt and Al got into the GROC .

3 ) I doubt this one, but MBNA got a black eye PR wise that hit bottom line somewhat. I remeber that they used to do a lot of telemarketing. I actually got a phone call from MBNA soliticing me for a Visa and whan I said, "Stop an dtake me off yourlist, I want nothing to do with Art Modell's freind Al Lerner" I was told by some telemarketer in Bangalore or somewhere "Oh, is this about that football thing again? I've been getting alot of that. "

But altruism is just to Pollyana. These guys all have agendas.

Now Randy? I think he's more altrusitic than his father. I think he sees this as his father's legacy and unfinsihed work and can't stand that the Browns are a very public failure. He's just not that into them.



JB, I understand your anger and that you were one of the originals on that other board. You go back a long way with the Browns and the move.

But your anger needs to be tempered these days with a little more objective look at how things went down.

Municipal Stadium was a League joke. It was just terrible. Cleveland was footing the bill for a Rock & Roll HOF, the Cavs, the Jake and the thing that made Cleveland rock was being ignored -- The Browns.

I'm not making excuses for Modell. He was an asswipe and he brought his financial woes on himself. But the powers-that-be in Cleveland had no thoughts on helping the Browns with a new Stadium, they just didn't care about Modell and the Browns. And the League damned sure didn't care.

Living 1,200 miles from Cleveland, I can tell you that most people outside of Cleveland understand these things. I was talking to a guy from Cleveland back in '92-93 and I asked about the possible floating of a bond for the Browns or the raising of the sales tax. He told me that the Browns could F themselves and the people of the area felt the same way. It was true, JB. Nobody had any sympathy for the Browns or Modell and nobody wanted to help. Especially the politicans. They were too busy buying votes.

Sure, Miami, NY, Boston, Dallas and some other areas could do cool things for their teams but these were "BIG" Markets. And this may come as a surprise to you, but Cleveland is NOT a 'big' market. And it is especially not a Wealthy Market.

Modell couldn't charge what the Giants charge. No way he could get what Dallas got for tickets. Add to that the fact that these other Cities and areas actually Helped their teams and Modell just said, "Fuck it, I'm outta here."

To this day, I just don't get the hostility directed at the Browns. Even now. It's like if they don't make the playoffs, have a winning record, people hate them. Irrational. Isn't there a "Second Fiddle" thread going on right now? Think so.

Yeah, right now we suck. But the FO seems to care. The owner cares, IMO. The fact that they don't have the experience or expertise, that they make mistakes, is understandable.

When "The Return" came about, you need to remember something -- NOBODY wanted to work for the New Browns. Nobody wanted to coach, nobody wanted FO positions, scouting etc. All suffered.

Channel your anger at the politicians who let all this happen. They're supposed to take of things like that instead of looking out only for themselves.


Yeah man, the days before there was a GUI and no AOL users. Those the days you're talking about?

It may surprise you to know that I agree with you. This harkens back to the discussions we had about Mangini and how winning solves everything. The Browns were coming off 11 - 5 and an actual playoff win (what's that?) when Modell decided he couldn't get a fair shake and was going to move. The population never did take to BB's Browns after he parted ways so badly with all of Marty's icons.

I agree with you up until then. Here's where we part ways. Modell shopuld have done exactly what Dick Jacobs and MLB did. Nothing more, nothing less.

Recall Lee McPhail was in Cleveland and told us that Muni was such a dump that either we build new or the Tribe was going to explore moving and leave?

Do you really think if Art and Tags stood up and said that a new stadium wouldn't have been built? Inseat, Art sniffled and pouted like a petulant child, and made a decision he'll likely regret with his last breath.

Never forget : the sin tax to renovate OR build new passed BEFORE the last game in '95. Before you scoff, isn't is a shame we couln't get our version of La,beau or Soldier field with OUR team? So logical, so rational, so easy and the right thing to do. Nothing but a pre-planned agenda for Art to get his, Al to get his, and the GROC to hold up a dozen cities for stadia over a 3 year period makes any sense to me. Those cats just aren't that dumb.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby bw » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:04 pm

JB wrote:
bw wrote:
JB wrote:
bw wrote:Al Lerner bought the Browns for no reason other to help out the City of Cleveland, IMO. For that, he should have a Statue. Seriously.



Nope.

Either one of three motivating factors

1 ) Guity conscience. he is partially resposnible for brojering the deal w/ B-more. Complicit with bad advice & resources to Modell at best, king maker at worst.

2 ) He wanted to enter the league and played a chess game like Bobby Fisher. he knew he'd get the next C-town franchise and it's value would skyrocket. He played Ary like a stratovarious and it was a win - win for those two. Modell got out of debt and Al got into the GROC .

3 ) I doubt this one, but MBNA got a black eye PR wise that hit bottom line somewhat. I remeber that they used to do a lot of telemarketing. I actually got a phone call from MBNA soliticing me for a Visa and whan I said, "Stop an dtake me off yourlist, I want nothing to do with Art Modell's freind Al Lerner" I was told by some telemarketer in Bangalore or somewhere "Oh, is this about that football thing again? I've been getting alot of that. "

But altruism is just to Pollyana. These guys all have agendas.

Now Randy? I think he's more altrusitic than his father. I think he sees this as his father's legacy and unfinsihed work and can't stand that the Browns are a very public failure. He's just not that into them.



JB, I understand your anger and that you were one of the originals on that other board. You go back a long way with the Browns and the move.

But your anger needs to be tempered these days with a little more objective look at how things went down.

Municipal Stadium was a League joke. It was just terrible. Cleveland was footing the bill for a Rock & Roll HOF, the Cavs, the Jake and the thing that made Cleveland rock was being ignored -- The Browns.

I'm not making excuses for Modell. He was an asswipe and he brought his financial woes on himself. But the powers-that-be in Cleveland had no thoughts on helping the Browns with a new Stadium, they just didn't care about Modell and the Browns. And the League damned sure didn't care.

Living 1,200 miles from Cleveland, I can tell you that most people outside of Cleveland understand these things. I was talking to a guy from Cleveland back in '92-93 and I asked about the possible floating of a bond for the Browns or the raising of the sales tax. He told me that the Browns could F themselves and the people of the area felt the same way. It was true, JB. Nobody had any sympathy for the Browns or Modell and nobody wanted to help. Especially the politicans. They were too busy buying votes.

Sure, Miami, NY, Boston, Dallas and some other areas could do cool things for their teams but these were "BIG" Markets. And this may come as a surprise to you, but Cleveland is NOT a 'big' market. And it is especially not a Wealthy Market.

Modell couldn't charge what the Giants charge. No way he could get what Dallas got for tickets. Add to that the fact that these other Cities and areas actually Helped their teams and Modell just said, "Fuck it, I'm outta here."

To this day, I just don't get the hostility directed at the Browns. Even now. It's like if they don't make the playoffs, have a winning record, people hate them. Irrational. Isn't there a "Second Fiddle" thread going on right now? Think so.

Yeah, right now we suck. But the FO seems to care. The owner cares, IMO. The fact that they don't have the experience or expertise, that they make mistakes, is understandable.

When "The Return" came about, you need to remember something -- NOBODY wanted to work for the New Browns. Nobody wanted to coach, nobody wanted FO positions, scouting etc. All suffered.

Channel your anger at the politicians who let all this happen. They're supposed to take of things like that instead of looking out only for themselves.


Yeah man, the days before there was a GUI and no AOL users. Those the days you're talking about?

It may surprise you to know that I agree with you. This harkens back to the discussions we had about Mangini and how winning solves everything. The Browns were coming off 11 - 5 and an actual playoff win (what's that?) when Modell decided he couldn't get a fair shake and was going to move. The population never did take to BB's Browns after he parted ways so badly with all of Marty's icons.

I agree with you up until then. Here's where we part ways. Modell shopuld have done exactly what Dick Jacobs and MLB did. Nothing more, nothing less.

Recall Lee McPhail was in Cleveland and told us that Muni was such a dump that either we build new or the Tribe was going to explore moving and leave?

Do you really think if Art and Tags stood up and said that a new stadium wouldn't have been built? Inseat, Art sniffled and pouted like a petulant child, and made a decision he'll likely regret with his last breath.

Never forget : the sin tax to renovate OR build new passed BEFORE the last game in '95. Before you scoff, isn't is a shame we couln't get our version of La,beau or Soldier field with OUR team? So logical, so rational, so easy and the right thing to do. Nothing but a pre-planned agenda for Art to get his, Al to get his, and the GROC to hold up a dozen cities for stadia over a 3 year period makes any sense to me. Those cats just aren't that dumb.


I guess that, in the end, there are enough bad guys to go around for everyone. Depending on which side you choose.

Again, not sticking up for asshat Modell here but, what did he get for the move? Himself? A few million?

Think about what happened after the 1994 season. Modell believed he was only a couple pieces away from a Super Bowl and went broke signing guys like Andre Rison, who turned out to be a complete douche. But the point is -- Modell tried to bring Cleveland a winner.

And in Ballmer he DID go broke bringing them a SB. He is no longer their owner because he sold his soul for a SB Trophy.

Maybe there's no one to blame. Maybe there's every one to blame. Maybe, it was just tough times and the 90's weren't the great years ( y)our memories say they were.

I think Modell could have handled things better. I think he made some financially stupid decisions. I don't believe in 'Star Chamber' conspiracy theories but I do believe that when left with no other options, people will do what they have to do -- Contingincies. Conspiracies? Doubtful.

I just don't like the negativity toward the Browns I'm sensing this year. Not aimed at you, but at the public in general.

We gonna kick some booty. I'm telling you, we're not that far away. If we can just remember that Football teams are built from the inside -out I think we can do okay.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Guest » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:14 pm

The story you guys in your early 20's tell isn't vastly different than what I grew up with. I was born in '72. The Browns had 1 good year that I can remember as a kid - 1. That would be the Kardiac Kids of 1980. The rest of the time, it was bad to mediocre teams with bad to mediocre players, long losing streaks against the Steelers, and heartbreaking chokes whenever they did have a decent team.

Sound familiar?

Even that Kosar-led playoff team of 1985 was only 8-8. It was the birth of what was to come, but, at that time, we didn't know whether or not it was just another flash in the pan (and not a very bright one).

In Elementary school, it was about half and half Steelers fans/Browns fans, since the Steelers were in their heyday, plus throw in the obligatory Cowboys frontrunners. It was about as cool to be a Browns fan in school as it is now.

Then they went on the AFC Title game streak, started beating the Inbred, and featured players that we can still all name by heart. That was a 4-5 year span, and, really, they never accomplished anything. They never even GOT to the Superbowl, much less win it all. But we STILL all love that team, speaking of them like they were the Jordan-led Bulls. That's how desperate we Browns fans were for a winner.

I can only remember watching Browns games with my dad since around 5, so here's what I grew up with:

1977: 6-8 (only 14 games)
1978: 8-8
1979: 9-7
1980: 11-5
1981: 5-11
1982: 4-5 (strike)
1983: 9-7
1984: 5-11
1985: 8-8

Certainly not as bad overall as the last decade. But it's not like the Browns just invented sucking.

They've sucked before, they'll suck again.

And, during the good times, the bandwagon fans will come back, just like they always do.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:21 pm

bw wrote:
JB wrote:
bw wrote:
JB wrote:
bw wrote:Al Lerner bought the Browns for no reason other to help out the City of Cleveland, IMO. For that, he should have a Statue. Seriously.



Nope.

Either one of three motivating factors

1 ) Guity conscience. he is partially resposnible for brojering the deal w/ B-more. Complicit with bad advice & resources to Modell at best, king maker at worst.

2 ) He wanted to enter the league and played a chess game like Bobby Fisher. he knew he'd get the next C-town franchise and it's value would skyrocket. He played Ary like a stratovarious and it was a win - win for those two. Modell got out of debt and Al got into the GROC .

3 ) I doubt this one, but MBNA got a black eye PR wise that hit bottom line somewhat. I remeber that they used to do a lot of telemarketing. I actually got a phone call from MBNA soliticing me for a Visa and whan I said, "Stop an dtake me off yourlist, I want nothing to do with Art Modell's freind Al Lerner" I was told by some telemarketer in Bangalore or somewhere "Oh, is this about that football thing again? I've been getting alot of that. "

But altruism is just to Pollyana. These guys all have agendas.

Now Randy? I think he's more altrusitic than his father. I think he sees this as his father's legacy and unfinsihed work and can't stand that the Browns are a very public failure. He's just not that into them.



JB, I understand your anger and that you were one of the originals on that other board. You go back a long way with the Browns and the move.

But your anger needs to be tempered these days with a little more objective look at how things went down.

Municipal Stadium was a League joke. It was just terrible. Cleveland was footing the bill for a Rock & Roll HOF, the Cavs, the Jake and the thing that made Cleveland rock was being ignored -- The Browns.

I'm not making excuses for Modell. He was an asswipe and he brought his financial woes on himself. But the powers-that-be in Cleveland had no thoughts on helping the Browns with a new Stadium, they just didn't care about Modell and the Browns. And the League damned sure didn't care.

Living 1,200 miles from Cleveland, I can tell you that most people outside of Cleveland understand these things. I was talking to a guy from Cleveland back in '92-93 and I asked about the possible floating of a bond for the Browns or the raising of the sales tax. He told me that the Browns could F themselves and the people of the area felt the same way. It was true, JB. Nobody had any sympathy for the Browns or Modell and nobody wanted to help. Especially the politicans. They were too busy buying votes.

Sure, Miami, NY, Boston, Dallas and some other areas could do cool things for their teams but these were "BIG" Markets. And this may come as a surprise to you, but Cleveland is NOT a 'big' market. And it is especially not a Wealthy Market.

Modell couldn't charge what the Giants charge. No way he could get what Dallas got for tickets. Add to that the fact that these other Cities and areas actually Helped their teams and Modell just said, "Fuck it, I'm outta here."

To this day, I just don't get the hostility directed at the Browns. Even now. It's like if they don't make the playoffs, have a winning record, people hate them. Irrational. Isn't there a "Second Fiddle" thread going on right now? Think so.

Yeah, right now we suck. But the FO seems to care. The owner cares, IMO. The fact that they don't have the experience or expertise, that they make mistakes, is understandable.

When "The Return" came about, you need to remember something -- NOBODY wanted to work for the New Browns. Nobody wanted to coach, nobody wanted FO positions, scouting etc. All suffered.

Channel your anger at the politicians who let all this happen. They're supposed to take of things like that instead of looking out only for themselves.


Yeah man, the days before there was a GUI and no AOL users. Those the days you're talking about?

It may surprise you to know that I agree with you. This harkens back to the discussions we had about Mangini and how winning solves everything. The Browns were coming off 11 - 5 and an actual playoff win (what's that?) when Modell decided he couldn't get a fair shake and was going to move. The population never did take to BB's Browns after he parted ways so badly with all of Marty's icons.

I agree with you up until then. Here's where we part ways. Modell shopuld have done exactly what Dick Jacobs and MLB did. Nothing more, nothing less.

Recall Lee McPhail was in Cleveland and told us that Muni was such a dump that either we build new or the Tribe was going to explore moving and leave?

Do you really think if Art and Tags stood up and said that a new stadium wouldn't have been built? Inseat, Art sniffled and pouted like a petulant child, and made a decision he'll likely regret with his last breath.

Never forget : the sin tax to renovate OR build new passed BEFORE the last game in '95. Before you scoff, isn't is a shame we couln't get our version of La,beau or Soldier field with OUR team? So logical, so rational, so easy and the right thing to do. Nothing but a pre-planned agenda for Art to get his, Al to get his, and the GROC to hold up a dozen cities for stadia over a 3 year period makes any sense to me. Those cats just aren't that dumb.


I guess that, in the end, there are enough bad guys to go around for everyone. Depending on which side you choose.

Again, not sticking up for asshat Modell here but, what did he get for the move? Himself? A few million?

Think about what happened after the 1994 season. Modell believed he was only a couple pieces away from a Super Bowl and went broke signing guys like Andre Rison, who turned out to be a complete douche. But the point is -- Modell tried to bring Cleveland a winner.

And in Ballmer he DID go broke bringing them a SB. He is no longer their owner because he sold his soul for a SB Trophy.

Maybe there's no one to blame. Maybe there's every one to blame. Maybe, it was just tough times and the 90's weren't the great years ( y)our memories say they were.

I think Modell could have handled things better. I think he made some financially stupid decisions. I don't believe in 'Star Chamber' conspiracy theories but I do believe that when left with no other options, people will do what they have to do -- Contingincies. Conspiracies? Doubtful.

I just don't like the negativity toward the Browns I'm sensing this year. Not aimed at you, but at the public in general.

We gonna kick some booty. I'm telling you, we're not that far away. If we can just remember that Football teams are built from the inside -out I think we can do okay.



The list is long for sure, and it even includes some Democratic politicains who were paying Art back for his GOP involvement, I believe. I'm guessing you'll fight me on that. ;-)

being clear, I don't think it was preconceieved, but once Art f'd up and the GROC & Al were contemlating how to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, I am ceratin they had their best interests in mind and not C-towns, which obviously was to push Art to a B-more expansion franchise and keep the real Browns here and renovate a historic CMS .

And Art got out of debt, bw. That was HUGE for him. He was in debt from the day he bought the team until the day he took the $ 75 million pieces of silver and later Biscotti's buy out to pay his way to zero balance & a nest egg for Boy Sherman.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Guest » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:22 pm

bw wrote:Sure, Miami, NY, Boston, Dallas and some other areas could do cool things for their teams but these were "BIG" Markets. And this may come as a surprise to you, but Cleveland is NOT a 'big' market. And it is especially not a Wealthy Market.


You're certainly right about the wealthy market, but Cleveland's market isn't exactly small.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_North_America_by_media_market

1. New York City, New York
2. Los Angeles, California
3. Chicago, Illinois
4. San Francisco, California
5. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
6. Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas
7. Washington, District of Columbia
8. Boston, Massachusetts
9. Miami, Florida
10. Detroit, Michigan
11. Houston, Texas
12. Phoenix, Arizona
13. Seattle, Washington
14. Minneapolis, Minnesota
15. Cleveland, Ohio

Bigger than Baltimore, at 22.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:32 pm

Hiko wrote:
bw wrote:Sure, Miami, NY, Boston, Dallas and some other areas could do cool things for their teams but these were "BIG" Markets. And this may come as a surprise to you, but Cleveland is NOT a 'big' market. And it is especially not a Wealthy Market.


You're certainly right about the wealthy market, but Cleveland's market isn't exactly small.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_North_America_by_media_market

1. New York City, New York
2. Los Angeles, California
3. Chicago, Illinois
4. San Francisco, California
5. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
6. Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas
7. Washington, District of Columbia
8. Boston, Massachusetts
9. Miami, Florida
10. Detroit, Michigan
11. Houston, Texas
12. Phoenix, Arizona
13. Seattle, Washington
14. Minneapolis, Minnesota
15. Cleveland, Ohio

Bigger than Baltimore, at 22.


+ 1

We are a medium sized market, still.

Jacksonville? That's a small market. Nashville....

One issue is that the Cleveland media market includes CAK , Y-town, and Lorain. If you think CAK (don't tell Spin ;-) ) & Y-town are Browns markets in anyway except technicalities, I have sad news....
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby buckeye319 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:06 pm

JB wrote:.

One issue is that the Cleveland media market includes CAK , Y-town, and Lorain. If you think CAK (don't tell Spin ;-) ) & Y-town are Browns markets in anyway except technicalities, I have sad news....


Really? I get Y-town isn't but I always thought Akron-Canton was a Browns market. That is sad news.

I agree with Hiko's take - fans will always come back, not because they love the Browns as much as this region just loves football and football at every level. Sure, some fans might gravitate towards the Steelers when they're winning titles but by and large NE Ohioans will be back as soon as they don't look like a JV squad.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Guest » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:07 pm

JB wrote:
Hiko wrote:
bw wrote:Sure, Miami, NY, Boston, Dallas and some other areas could do cool things for their teams but these were "BIG" Markets. And this may come as a surprise to you, but Cleveland is NOT a 'big' market. And it is especially not a Wealthy Market.


You're certainly right about the wealthy market, but Cleveland's market isn't exactly small.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_North_America_by_media_market

1. New York City, New York
2. Los Angeles, California
3. Chicago, Illinois
4. San Francisco, California
5. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
6. Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas
7. Washington, District of Columbia
8. Boston, Massachusetts
9. Miami, Florida
10. Detroit, Michigan
11. Houston, Texas
12. Phoenix, Arizona
13. Seattle, Washington
14. Minneapolis, Minnesota
15. Cleveland, Ohio

Bigger than Baltimore, at 22.


+ 1

We are a medium sized market, still.

Jacksonville? That's a small market. Nashville....

One issue is that the Cleveland media market includes CAK , Y-town, and Lorain. If you think CAK (don't tell Spin ;-) ) & Y-town are Browns markets in anyway except technicalities, I have sad news....


They are when the Browns are winning.

Other than that, they are battleground cities.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby jordan kramer » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:46 pm

none of this would even be an issue if the Browns didn't perpetually suck. usually i don't even want to go into the Browns forum here cuz i don't even want to think about their sorry ass play...

bottom line, if we start winning consistently (a la the inbred) we get more fans. there are a lot of front-running assholes out there that only want to root for a winner, therefore the Browns get no consideration. is kinda embarrassing to be a Browns fan, and thats not good.

it goes like this: the Steelers win, the front-runners get to be happy, bust on the shitty Browns and their fans, etc. the Browns lose and we're miserable all football season. why would anybody want to be a Browns fan now? i can't stand rooting for them. if it wasn't ingrained in me for life at birth, i wouldn't have to deal with this shit
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby bw » Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:25 pm

Hiko wrote:
bw wrote:Sure, Miami, NY, Boston, Dallas and some other areas could do cool things for their teams but these were "BIG" Markets. And this may come as a surprise to you, but Cleveland is NOT a 'big' market. And it is especially not a Wealthy Market.


You're certainly right about the wealthy market, but Cleveland's market isn't exactly small.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_North_America_by_media_market

1. New York City, New York
2. Los Angeles, California
3. Chicago, Illinois
4. San Francisco, California
5. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
6. Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas
7. Washington, District of Columbia
8. Boston, Massachusetts
9. Miami, Florida
10. Detroit, Michigan
11. Houston, Texas
12. Phoenix, Arizona
13. Seattle, Washington
14. Minneapolis, Minnesota
15. Cleveland, Ohio

Bigger than Baltimore, at 22.


I don't know why this is important. Maybe it isn't --

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/09/10/ni ... mates/5037

Rank Designated Market Area (DMA) TV Homes % of US
1 New York 7,433,820 6.495
2 Los Angeles 5,654,260 4.940
3 Chicago 3,492,850 3.052
4 Philadelphia 2,950,220 2.578
5 Dallas-Ft. Worth 2,489,970 2.175
6 San Francisco-Oak-San Jose 2,476,450 2.164
7 Boston (Manchester) 2,409,080 2.105
8 Atlanta 2,369,780 2.070
9 Washington, DC (Hagrstwn) 2,321,610 2.028
10 Houston 2,106,210 1.840
11 Detroit 1,926,970 1.684
12 Phoenix (Prescott) 1,855,930 1.622
13 Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota) 1,822,160 1.592
14 Seattle-Tacoma 1,819,970 1.590
15 Minneapolis-St. Paul 1,730,530 1.512
16 Miami-Ft. Lauderdale 1,546,920 1.352
17 Cleveland-Akron (Canton) 1,524,930 1.332
18 Denver 1,524,210 1.332
19 Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn 1,466,420 1.281
20 Sacramnto-Stkton-Modesto 1,399,520 1.223
21 St. Louis 1,249,820 1.092
22 Portland, OR 1,175,100 1.027
23 Pittsburgh 1,156,460 1.010
24 Charlotte 1,122,860 0.981
25 Indianapolis 1,114,970 0.974
26 Baltimore 1,102,080 0.963

Just saying that Cleveland couldn't support the exhorbitant prices charged by teams in Big and/or, rich/wealthy Markets. Either through TV or through ticket prices.

Just sayin' the owners, et al, in Cleveland have a tougher row-to-hoe that their competitors in other Markets.

Sticking up for them, not knocking them.

Jax? Look at #19. Might as well be Jacksonville. Then there's Savannah close by. Jax is not a huge Market but its a lot bigger than most think. Other than one or two, Cleveland is at a big disadvantage.

And some of those 'smaller' Markets are growing every year.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:59 pm

bw wrote:Just sayin' the owners, et al, in Cleveland have a tougher row-to-hoe that their competitors in other Markets.

Sticking up for them, not knocking them.


Dude - It is the NFL , not MLB. TV & revenue sharing, gate split, and all that sort of thing? Bells ringing?

Only thing unshared is loges and PSL funds. Now this is the 10 year lease year for the Browns, and I'm surethey are struggling. But not becasue of market size. Think market size and the economy is going to impact the loge & PSL re-up at Ketchup Field next year?

Jax? Look at #19. Might as well be Jacksonville. Then there's Savannah close by.


How can you argue with logic like that? Greater Orlando area, Jacksonville, Y not?

Pull it out ye bung hole so it must carry weight, eh? ;-)

Jax is a small market, my brotha.

What is interesting is how these are sliced up. Some geographic rankings throw in Y-town and Lorain into C-town, others do not. It depends on what constitutes media market and what is MSA. Lot's of geographical terms & measures.

Cleveland ends up being a medium sized city. Simply put, we're neither Chicago nor Boise.

And obviously the rust belts still bleed people, except Indiana, for some reason. Chicago burbs expanding and Indy = C-bus in many ways. But for many years all I read about in geographic trends was Clark County bah blah blah..... Then you look at how many people are listed in Nevada as residents and how many in dying Ohio. Ain't even close. Trends do not = overall N .
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby bw » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:27 pm

I hate it when I go through all the trouble of proving myself -- Wrong.

There's a pretty cool graph at the link that won't post here that gives the value, revenue, debt, etc of NFL Teams.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/30/biz ... venue.html

Never let it be said that I won't man-up when I'm wrong.

I think it's JB's fault, though.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby justmebd » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:45 pm

Having lived 30 years in Y-town, I can say for a fact that there are a buttload of Yinzer fans there. I grew up in the Y-town suburb of Poland, right along the PA border, and there always were more Inbred fans than Browns fans.

The thing about Y-town is that the town is one of the biggest sources of bandwagon fans imaginable. When I was growing up, I didn't even know Y-town State HAD a football team. Then Tressel came around and all of a sudden everyone was a Penguin fan.

I think Y-town is actually a pretty even split between Browns/Steelers fans with more Browns fans on the northside and more Toothless fans on the southside.

My wife grew up 10 minutes away from me right over the border in PA and she's a Steeler fan. I told her it is her wifely duty to start rooting for my teams, but she won't listen to me. I threatened to withhold sex, but that only hurts me.

So I make a deal with her every Browns/Steelers game. If the Browns win, she has to sleep with me. If the Steelers win, I have to sleep with her. See, everybody wins!!

Modell note: I could be wrong, but wasn't Modell offered a piece of the Gateway project and turned it down? I was reading through this thread, but didn't see that particular bit brought up. I swear I read that somewhere, possibly one of Pluto's books.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby BooyaCS » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:59 am

Here was the major issue with Modell. He owned the old Muni. He rented it out to the city for a $1 a year. The rock concerts that were conducted at the Muni also hurt the baseball field.

Then in 1994 the city decided to build the gateway project. This project was originally slated to help the Indians and the Cavs. The Browns were excluded since Modell owned the Muni. It was a way for the Indians to not have to pay rent to someone other than the city of Cleveland. Only after the Indians moved out during the 1994 season did the City ask Modell if he wanted to be a part of the Gateway complex. They would have built a new stadium for occupancy in 1999.

Like it or not Modell was broke and couldn't wait until 1999 to get a new stadium. He thought the best way to save his buisness is to move the team and generate revenue in a different market with and exclusive stadium. (it was rumored they could use Jacobs field at the time with a 40,000 capacity making it the smallest football stadium in the league). The deal was too sweet and Modell took it before the city could counter.

This is what I remember from a grounds crew member (family friend) that worked at the Muni until 1994 when the Indians moved out. He was fired and new younger people were put into place.

So in many aspects the Browns were always second fiddle to the Indians and we already lost 1 team because of it.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Toxicadam » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:42 am

Maybe among the black community. But the NFL is still the king of sports in America (and especially the midwest). Even if the Browns would suck for the next 5 years (a possibility) all it would take is one magical year to bring all the fans back again. You know it's true.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby oberle » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:57 am

bw wrote:I'm not making excuses for Modell. He was an asswipe and he brought his financial woes on himself. But the powers-that-be in Cleveland had no thoughts on helping the Browns with a new Stadium, they just didn't care about Modell and the Browns. And the League damned sure didn't care.

Living 1,200 miles from Cleveland, I can tell you that most people outside of Cleveland understand these things. I was talking to a guy from Cleveland back in '92-93 and I asked about the possible floating of a bond for the Browns or the raising of the sales tax. He told me that the Browns could F themselves and the people of the area felt the same way. It was true, JB. Nobody had any sympathy for the Browns or Modell and nobody wanted to help. Especially the politicans. They were too busy buying votes.



Part of our 'anger' is the fact that the national media never portrayed the true story.

They never advertised the FACT that Gateway was initially to be a dual use ball park, because the politicians believed that if the Indians went for it alone, the levy would fail. The Cavs were happy in Richfield, and bribed to be part of Gateway so the two teams would benefit.

Modell refused to be a part of a new dual use stadium because the pols had already agreed to give control of the new stadium to the Jacobs, since they would be using the Stadium 80 times, -v- 10 for football. Modell figured that if he couldn't rape the Tribe for rent, he would actually have to be careful with his money; and refused to join, hoping the levy would be defeated and everything could go back to the way it was.

When Gateway passed, he realized that he would lose his cash-cow (he got ALL concessions and parking for baseball and special events, charged the Tribe something close to 10% of their gate sales for rent, and paid a $1.00 per year lease for the Stadium, and in return HE was supposed to maintain the Stadium. That the stadium was a rat-hole was more his fault than anyone else's) That's when he went to White and demanded a new Stadium. Had he gone public with his demands, a new one would have been built; but he preferred to make a deal with Baltimore; at the same time he called a 'moratorium' on all talk about a new or refurbished stadium. Sure we would have bitched and moaned; and Modell would have been vilified (maybe a large percentage of how much he was vilified by moving the team)

But the fact remains, (excuse me for shouting) A NEW STADIUM WOULD HAVE BEEN BUILT IN CLEVELAND AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE IF MODELL HAD THREATENED TO MOVE THE TEAM OTHERWISE. Any other statement is fiction.

Don't get me wrong; there's plenty of blame to go around. But Modell gets the lion's share, and the national media just ignored it.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby oberle » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:07 am

bw wrote;
Again, not sticking up for asshat Modell here but, what did he get for the move? Himself? A few million?

oberle:
He was over $65M in debt when he moved the team. Baltimore paid off his debt, for him.

bw:
And in Ballmer he DID go broke bringing them a SB. He is no longer their owner because he sold his soul for a SB Trophy.

oberle:
Which the NFL told him would happen. Ballmer, in their minds was not a big enough market to support a 'new' team.

bw:
We gonna kick some booty. I'm telling you, we're not that far away. If we can just remember that Football teams are built from the inside -out I think we can do okay.


oberle:
This is the 3rd (or is it the 4th?) time in the last ten years that we've hears this line of bullshit. Even Clevelanders are not that stupid. I think, in general, fans are waiting to see who the next goat will be for the continuing rudderless suck that is the Browns.

Don't get me wrong, bw. I'm not mad at you. This thing is STILL a hot button with me. I may be late with a lot of this, and others have already said the stuff I'm saying, but I have to continue to reinforce my reputation as a bitter olf fart, don't I?
Last edited by oberle on Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby oberle » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:15 am

bw wrote:Just saying that Cleveland couldn't support the exhorbitant prices charged by teams in Big and/or, rich/wealthy Markets. Either through TV or through ticket prices


Bullshit. The NFL divides the spoils equally. Modell himself said in 1990 that he could charge $0.00 for seats at the stadium and it wouldn't affect his bottom line.

When you talk about the TV money, remember that.

When I got season tickets in 1985, they were $7.50 per game. 10 years later those same tickets were $30.00 per game.

And guess what? The place was still packed. Had Modell charged $50 to $100 for us to sit on that 18 inch piece of 2 X 8; he would have gotten it (and I'd probably be divorced, now)

The 'crying poor' bullshit shouldn't work for the Indians, and shouldn't work for the Browns either.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby jb » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:03 am

oberle wrote:
bw wrote:I'm not making excuses for Modell. He was an asswipe and he brought his financial woes on himself. But the powers-that-be in Cleveland had no thoughts on helping the Browns with a new Stadium, they just didn't care about Modell and the Browns. And the League damned sure didn't care.

Living 1,200 miles from Cleveland, I can tell you that most people outside of Cleveland understand these things. I was talking to a guy from Cleveland back in '92-93 and I asked about the possible floating of a bond for the Browns or the raising of the sales tax. He told me that the Browns could F themselves and the people of the area felt the same way. It was true, JB. Nobody had any sympathy for the Browns or Modell and nobody wanted to help. Especially the politicans. They were too busy buying votes.



Part of our 'anger' is the fact that the national media never portrayed the true story.

They never advertised the FACT that Gateway was initially to be a dual use ball park, because the politicians believed that if the Indians went for it alone, the levy would fail. The Cavs were happy in Richfield, and bribed to be part of Gateway so the two teams would benefit.

Modell refused to be a part of a new dual use stadium because the pols had already agreed to give control of the new stadium to the Jacobs, since they would be using the Stadium 80 times, -v- 10 for football. Modell figured that if he couldn't rape the Tribe for rent, he would actually have to be careful with his money; and refused to join, hoping the levy would be defeated and everything could go back to the way it was.

When Gateway passed, he realized that he would lose his cash-cow (he got ALL concessions and parking for baseball and special events, charged the Tribe something close to 10% of their gate sales for rent, and paid a $1.00 per year lease for the Stadium, and in return HE was supposed to maintain the Stadium. That the stadium was a rat-hole was more his fault than anyone else's) That's when he went to White and demanded a new Stadium. Had he gone public with his demands, a new one would have been built; but he preferred to make a deal with Baltimore; at the same time he called a 'moratorium' on all talk about a new or refurbished stadium. Sure we would have bitched and moaned; and Modell would have been vilified (maybe a large percentage of how much he was vilified by moving the team)

But the fact remains, (excuse me for shouting) A NEW STADIUM WOULD HAVE BEEN BUILT IN CLEVELAND AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE IF MODELL HAD THREATENED TO MOVE THE TEAM OTHERWISE. Any other statement is fiction.

Don't get me wrong; there's plenty of blame to go around. But Modell gets the lion's share, and the national media just ignored it.


Going, going, gone!
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Bludgeon Riffola » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:23 pm

There's only one marketable name — Brady Quinn — on a team that is rebuilding again and rolling out the promises of making the Browns into the team that this area deserves.



We're not even getting a promise.... We're getting a trust us, we know what we're doing. If the Browns bought in anybody that was worthy of trusting, I'd be the most trusting mfer south of Kentucky, and the koolaid would make me believe their promises, but all we have is a ManKok trading away or pissing off royally anybody with any talent on the team because their "way of winning" is supposed to be override talented players. So let's trade K2, and let's make Rogers want to leave, let's trade BE for picks we can piss away, let's waive a servicable RT because he made to much jack for Pork Chop, then scramble for a week and end up signing a statistically worse player for more money.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby jb » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:25 pm

Bludgeon Riffola wrote:There's only one marketable name — Brady Quinn — on a team that is rebuilding again and rolling out the promises of making the Browns into the team that this area deserves.



We're not even getting a promise.... We're getting a trust us, we know what we're doing. If the Browns bought in anybody that was worthy of trusting, I'd be the most trusting mfer south of Kentucky, and the koolaid would make me believe their promises, but all we have is a ManKok trading away or pissing off royally anybody with any talent on the team because their "way of winning" is supposed to be override talented players. So let's trade K2, and let's make Rogers want to leave, let's trade BE for picks we can piss away, let's waive a servicable RT because he made to much jack for Pork Chop, then scramble for a week and end up signing a statistically worse player for more money.


rammlov told me the Browns got the better ORT.

Hata.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby pup » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:37 pm

Bludgeon Riffola wrote:There's only one marketable name — Brady Quinn — on a team that is rebuilding again and rolling out the promises of making the Browns into the team that this area deserves.



We're not even getting a promise.... We're getting a trust us, we know what we're doing. If the Browns bought in anybody that was worthy of trusting, I'd be the most trusting mfer south of Kentucky, and the koolaid would make me believe their promises, but all we have is a ManKok trading away or pissing off royally anybody with any talent on the team because their "way of winning" is supposed to be override talented players. So let's trade K2, and let's make Rogers want to leave, let's trade BE for picks we can piss away, let's waive a servicable RT because he made to much jack for Pork Chop, then scramble for a week and end up signing a statistically worse player for more money.


1. Were you giving K2 the $20M Tampa did? If not, he wasn't helping us this year?
2. Did I miss the announcement Rogers was gone? Someone link that for me, please. Who was the fat cat wearing 92 during OTAs?
3. Braylon for a 1st and a 4th. Has to be considered. And I have always backed the guy. Take Crabtree with the 5, pay him the same money Braylon was getting and use the late first, and the two second rounders on the defense.
4. Serviceable? Kevin Shafer? Serviceable. We either have different definitions of serviceable, or we watch different games. Not saying St. Clair is all that, or even better (I tried once, studied up, returned to admit my mistake) but how much worse can one really be than pointless?
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:15 pm

Cue Moriarity and the "negative waves"

Oddball would be so disappointed

Too much bad karma....now we have to close the Return Window till draft day

The hopeful amoungst us would like at least a veiled attempt at positivenessisity

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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:19 pm

"This is the NFL. You don't make money, then you're a fuckin' douchebag. "
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby oberle » Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:17 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Cue Moriarity and the "negative waves"

Oddball would be so disappointed

Too much bad karma....now we have to close the Return Window till draft day

The hopeful amoungst us would like at least a veiled attempt at positivenessisity

:nanner:


You know how bad it is? What I was posting WAS positivenessisity

(BTW, I really like that word, I'm going to try to use it every day.)
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby jb » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:34 am

Pup wrote:
Bludgeon Riffola wrote:There's only one marketable name — Brady Quinn — on a team that is rebuilding again and rolling out the promises of making the Browns into the team that this area deserves.



We're not even getting a promise.... We're getting a trust us, we know what we're doing. If the Browns bought in anybody that was worthy of trusting, I'd be the most trusting mfer south of Kentucky, and the koolaid would make me believe their promises, but all we have is a ManKok trading away or pissing off royally anybody with any talent on the team because their "way of winning" is supposed to be override talented players. So let's trade K2, and let's make Rogers want to leave, let's trade BE for picks we can piss away, let's waive a servicable RT because he made to much jack for Pork Chop, then scramble for a week and end up signing a statistically worse player for more money.


1. Were you giving K2 the $20M Tampa did? If not, he wasn't helping us this year?
2. Did I miss the announcement Rogers was gone? Someone link that for me, please. Who was the fat cat wearing 92 during OTAs?
3. Braylon for a 1st and a 4th. Has to be considered. And I have always backed the guy. Take Crabtree with the 5, pay him the same money Braylon was getting and use the late first, and the two second rounders on the defense.
4. Serviceable? Kevin Shafer? Serviceable. We either have different definitions of serviceable, or we watch different games. Not saying St. Clair is all that, or even better (I tried once, studied up, returned to admit my mistake) but how much worse can one really be than pointless?


Pup - Then we have different definitions. Shaffer was and is servicable.

St Clair hasn't been able to even start most of his career. The Browns are worse at RT than last season no matter how many people want to throw rocks at Shaffer.

Is what it is.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby mattvan1 » Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:42 am

Bludgeon Riffola wrote: We're not even getting a promise.... We're getting a trust us, we know what we're doing. If the Browns bought in anybody that was worthy of trusting, I'd be the most trusting mfer south of Kentucky, and the koolaid would make me believe their promises


Dead solid perfect. STFU, we know what we're doing. I'm supposed to re-up season tix because Randy has an unexplainable man-crush on Mangini and instead of some type of structure and accountability in the org, all we get is how important it is for the coach to chose his GM so they can sing Kumbya during the draft. F that. Here's hoping that this ugly Betty of an org screws like a rabbit on the field.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby tribefaninsouthernoh » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 am

mattvan1 wrote:
Bludgeon Riffola wrote: We're not even getting a promise.... We're getting a trust us, we know what we're doing. If the Browns bought in anybody that was worthy of trusting, I'd be the most trusting mfer south of Kentucky, and the koolaid would make me believe their promises


Dead solid perfect. STFU, we know what we're doing. I'm supposed to re-up season tix because Randy has an unexplainable man-crush on Mangini and instead of some type of structure and accountability in the org, all we get is how important it is for the coach to chose his GM so they can sing Kumbya during the draft. F that. Here's hoping that this ugly Betty of an org screws like a rabbit on the field.



Spoken like a true die-hard fan. Without a game even having been played. Amazing..... :dead:
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby mattvan1 » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:12 pm

tribefaninsouthernoh wrote: Spoken like a true die-hard fan. Without a game even having been played. Amazing..... :dead:


Ah, yes. Collective group think says "Give peace a chance". Are you a PSL owner and sewason ticket holder? Just curious. Also curious what the current org has done to give you any confidence going into the 2009 season. Maybe I've missed something along the way.
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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby pup » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:20 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
tribefaninsouthernoh wrote: Spoken like a true die-hard fan. Without a game even having been played. Amazing..... :dead:


Ah, yes. Collective group think says "Give peace a chance". Are you a PSL owner and sewason ticket holder? Just curious. Also curious what the current org has done to give you any confidence going into the 2009 season. Maybe I've missed something along the way.


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Re: The Browns becoming 2nd fiddle?

Unread postby mattvan1 » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:31 pm

Pup wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
tribefaninsouthernoh wrote: Spoken like a true die-hard fan. Without a game even having been played. Amazing..... :dead:


Ah, yes. Collective group think says "Give peace a chance". Are you a PSL owner and sewason ticket holder? Just curious. Also curious what the current org has done to give you any confidence going into the 2009 season. Maybe I've missed something along the way.


Fired Romeo?


Currently current. As in Mangini and Kokinis. Yes, I know. Be patient. Give them a chance. We haven't even had the draft yet. Fine. I get that. But I see no hope on the horizon. None. At all. Plus, I simply grow tired of the "criticize the org and you're not a true fan" crowd. No one should get to question any person's fandom. Especially mine.
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