Matta

[FUDU]

Have to say right now I think the dude is overrated, mostly due to his X's and O's or lack there of.

Good recruiter sure, but unless his star recruits get in done on the court in their individual play his teams are overrated too often (especially on offense). Does he even run an offense?

He gets out coached too much considering he has some good talent. But is his talent as good as we all think?

Thoughts on Matta right now?

[swerb]

Still love the guy. Team has been gutted, year in and year out. Amount of talent he is bringing to Columbus is unprecedented. This years team was very young, one of the worst rebounding teams I've ever seen. 51-34 last night to a mid major.

In Thad I Trust.

[leadpipe]

I think, all things considered, that the guy is a good coach. Real good.

[hermanfontenot]

Good recruiter, terrible coach. The fact that they lost practically at home to a MAAC school is a real embarrassment.

[jb]

Still love the guy. Team has been gutted, year in and year out. Amount of talent he is bringing to Columbus is unprecedented. This years team was very young, one of the worst rebounding teams I've ever seen. 51-34 last night to a mid major.

In Thad I Trust.

+ 1

[hermanfontenot]

Team has been gutted, year in and year out.

Who's fault is that?

[jb]

Team has been gutted, year in and year out.

Who's fault is that?

Benjamin Franklins' fault.

LOT'S of him !

[hermanfontenot]

Team has been gutted, year in and year out.

Who's fault is that?

Benjamin Franklins' fault.

LOT'S of him !

It's Matta's fault for recruiting one-and-done mercenaries. Every year he has to rebuild. You can't build a program that way.

[OldDawg]

Team has been gutted, year in and year out.

Who's fault is that?

Benjamin Franklins' fault.

LOT'S of him !

It's Matta's fault for recruiting one-and-done mercenaries. Every year he has to rebuild. You can't build a program that way.

So you're suggesting lowering the bar as a recruiter to get not-NBA ready talent??
I am glad the big fella BJ Mullens didn't have a great year and be another one-and-doner like KK. Do you think they held his playing time down some to keep him around??

[TouchEmAllTime]

Team has been gutted, year in and year out.

Who's fault is that?

Benjamin Franklins' fault.

LOT'S of him !

It's Matta's fault for recruiting one-and-done mercenaries. Every year he has to rebuild. You can't build a program that way.

So you're suggesting lowering the bar as a recruiter to get not-NBA ready talent??
I am glad the big fella BJ Mullens didn't have a great year and be another one-and-doner like KK. Do you think they held his playing time down some to keep him around??

Kousta didn't have a great year last year either and that didn't stop him, now he's rotting on Jerry Sloans bench.

[hermanfontenot]

So you're suggesting lowering the bar as a recruiter to get not-NBA ready talent??

Just find a way to get good players who are committed to the program. The revolving door they have down there is ridiculous.

[FUDU]

There were two people I thought might bring the Herm take on this, Herm and JB.

.500 I'd be an all star no doubt.

Even with the one and done players Thad should still be able to have a little more dominance in conference and be able to be a perennial sweet 16 program.

Without uber recruits having big games and big seasons he seems to struggle.

Especially in this conference...christ I turn on ABC in Feb. and see Wisky/OSU and I think I am still watching football.

[WarAdmiral]

Thad is top notch, but he does have to figure a way to keep some continuity from year to year. Upper class men leadership is crucial to a program sustaining year to year high level performance. A couple of true lead guards would make his job a bit easier also. That falls back on him though, but getting and keeping very good lead guards seems to be an issue for many top level D1 programs. I have a theory, that there is higher volatility on lead guards through the evaluation process, than any other position, in regards to recruit rankings.

I like Thad a great deal, and love the way his teams play. It might not, be the most efficient method, but it is very enjoyable, when the right pieces are in place. I expected a much better season from this edition, but the miss on Crable, really hurt the upside of this squad IMO.

[waborat]

Oden was the only recruit that Matta probably thought that he would lose after one year...Conley & Cook? No way...Koufos? Doubt it...Mullens? Maybe and only because of what happened with Oden...Turner? Nope....I agree with JB that it was a ton of cash that has torn that team apart...if you've got a chance to get a good player, you get em...I'll still take the ride of '07 anytime

He's the same guy that a lot of us wanted when he was at Dayton & Xavier...He was the roundball Tressel...

He is one of two coaches to get 20 or more wins in each of his first five seasons as a head coach...

Let's see:

2 Big Ten Conference regular season championships
1 Big Ten Tournament title
1 Final Four appearance
1 NCAA Championship appearance
1 NIT Championship

After losing Lighty this year, I thought the Bucks did a good job even getting to the tourney...solid guy, solid coach

[jordan kramer]

OSU was not a vary good team this year, especially without their best player David Lighty, remember him. this is like Siena's best team in their history. We had like no seniors this year. Matta's a great recruiter, its not his fault Diebler's a bust, and Mullens is a historic stiff. its also not his fault that 4 freshman have left to become 1st round picks

[jb]

T OSU is not a legacy basketball program as it lacks history and Ohio is not a great basketball sport. He does prety well for what my expectations are. YMMV.

Conley should't have jumped, Kostas either, certainly not Cook.

It was the money.

[CP]

Agree with the above posts defending Matta. He's done a fine job in a weird era of NCAA basketball. All the one-and-done rule seems to have done is to cause parity where parity did not exist. The mid-majors were never going to get the Odens of the world anyway, so the one-and-done rule never really affected them. It's the guys with success in recruiting top athletic talent who feel the burn.

It's not necessarily a bad thing that a lot of Buckeyes players leave after a year; being a NBA factory is just going to continue to get you top talent, and players may start listening to Matta more (like the football players listen to Tressel) when he tells them whether to stay or go to the NBA.

Plus, I want to see how any other major college program would have done losing an experienced wing player like Lighty seven games into the season. Lighty is a guy who alters the way a NCAA tournament game is played with his length and experience, and losing him really hurt, particularly on the defensive end.

Not making excuses for Matta, but the loss of an experienced wing player in this era of NCAA basketball is killer. Plus, Turner got shots at the end and just wasn't able to convert.

Any major conference school with a bunch of one-and-done players is going to be susceptible to an upset against a mid-major with players who may not be as talented but have been around for a couple of years.

As to the type of recruiting, you take the best players and try to ride them to the Final Four and hope for the best. Who knows where OSU would have been with Lighty healthy all year. A 4 seed wouldn't have been out of the question,and you might be looking at a sweet 16 berth at that point.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

It's part of the job of a NCAA Basketball coach to recruit the most talented players he can. I don't see how Matta can be blamed for the "one and done" rule. People should be thankful they got to see Oden and Conely at OSU, if only for one year. To call them "mercenaries" is a bit silly. These players would be stupid to pass up millions of dollars. Would anyone pass on the chance to be rich and play in the NBA?

As for X's and O's......Matta is good, not great. The loss vs Siena sucked, especialy since I was there. They are not good on the glass (Why I do not know, with Mullens and Lauderdale) and they take too many bad shots. Their halfcourt offense is sloppy and they never work from the inside out, like they should.

[osucrazy18]

as said before GREAT recruiter , X & O's are terrible.......we cant runa frickin offense
but the guy can modivate n thats a big thing in college basketball

[danwismar]

My God, people's memories are short.

Was he a terrible coach when he was winning multiple, including back to back Big Ten Championships?

was he a terrible coach when he was taking OSU to the Final Four?

Was he a terrible coach when he was taking THREE different teams to the Sweet Sixteen and two to the Elite Eight.

Was he a terrible coach when he was winning 20 games for eight straight years?

This was a 9 seed beating an 8 seed for Christ's sake....not exactly CSU over Indiana.

Was Roy Williams a terrible coach when he had three underclassmen, including at least one freshman, bolt North Carolina for the NBA a couple years ago?

I'll grant that it's hard to build continuity in a program when you have guys regularly opting out early to the NBA...and that it has been a problem for Matta. But it sure as hell doesn't make him a terrible coach.

[waborat]

...and let's not forget the famous "Drop 'N Pop"

Maybe the smoothest move ever for a coach

[Cerebral_DownTime]

...and let's not forget the famous "Drop 'N Pop"

Maybe the smoothest move ever for a coach

Is that like Pop N Lock? Or are you talking about the gum? Which was pretty gross.

[peeker643]

My God, people's memories are short.

Was he a terrible coach when he was winning multiple, including back to back Big Ten Championships?

was he a terrible coach when he was taking OSU to the Final Four?

Was he a terrible coach when he was taking THREE different teams to the Sweet Sixteen and two to the Elite Eight.

Was he a terrible coach when he was winning 20 games for eight straight years?

This was a 9 seed beating an 8 seed for Christ's sake....not exactly CSU over Indiana.

Was Roy Williams a terrible coach when he had three underclassmen, including at least one freshman, bolt North Carolina for the NBA a couple years ago?

I'll grant that it's hard to build continuity in a program when you have guys regularly opting out early to the NBA...and that it has been a problem for Matta. But it sure as hell doesn't make him a terrible coach.

Misery seeks its own level Dan.

This is just another typical "Day After" witch hunt. You can set your watch to 'em.

[FUDU]

Not a witch hunt at all. Matta teams run poor offenses and it isn't necessarily a minority opinion the guy is not special at X's and O's.

IMO the biggest thing is he should not be a middle of the road Big Ten hoops program with the talent he brings in. Not expecting him to win it all every year but he as a coach seems to under achieve on game day to often when he in fact shouldn't.

[peeker643]

Not a witch hunt at all. Matta teams run poor offenses and it isn't necessarily a minority opinion the guy is not special at X's and O's.

IMO the biggest thing is he should not be a middle of the road Big Ten hoops program with the talent he brings in. Not expecting him to win it all every year but he as a coach seems to under achieve on game day to often when he in fact shouldn't.

As Dan's post clearly shows.

[hermanfontenot]

Misery seeks its own level Dan.

This is just another typical "Day After" witch hunt. You can set your watch to 'em.

No need for me to go on a witch hunt. I have absolutely no adherence to Ohio State hoops. I call it like I see it. I didn't think much of Thad Matta before Friday, or last year, or in 2007. Honestly, if his teams don't have top-five NBA draft picks at the most important positions on the floor, they never end up doing very much.

[hermanfontenot]

Not a witch hunt at all. Matta teams run poor offenses and it isn't necessarily a minority opinion the guy is not special at X's and O's.

IMO the biggest thing is he should not be a middle of the road Big Ten hoops program with the talent he brings in. Not expecting him to win it all every year but he as a coach seems to under achieve on game day to often when he in fact shouldn't.

As Dan's post clearly shows.

He did win the NIT playing home games against the likes of UNC-Wilmington. Better look out for your laurels, Dean Smith.

[FUDU]

...and I never stated he was terrible, just overrated as a coach on the floor.

So overrated = terrible, is that something that should be made permanent in the TCF glossary?

[hermanfontenot]

...and I never stated he was terrible, just overrated as a coach on the floor.

So overrated = terrible, is that something that should be made permanent in the TCF glossary?

I said he was terrible. I came to that conclusion in 2007, when he had the best center prospect since Patrick Ewing in his frontcourt and his team still did nothing but jack up three-pointers.

[peeker643]

...and I never stated he was terrible, just overrated as a coach on the floor.

So overrated = terrible, is that something that should be made permanent in the TCF glossary?

'terrible' is in the thread FUDU.

So when you show me I was speaking specifically to your post in citing Dan's post we'll put it in the glossary for you.

Let's revisit Gary Water's Rutgers career to define him when we get a chance too. Guy can't recruit a shooter in a world full of them. He blows today too.

Keep ignoring Dan's point and you're clearly going to reach the conclusion Matta is mediocre. It's only when you consider all the successes that the argument loses steam.

Not that that will stop anyone.

[peeker643]

Not a witch hunt at all. Matta teams run poor offenses and it isn't necessarily a minority opinion the guy is not special at X's and O's.

IMO the biggest thing is he should not be a middle of the road Big Ten hoops program with the talent he brings in. Not expecting him to win it all every year but he as a coach seems to under achieve on game day to often when he in fact shouldn't.

As Dan's post clearly shows.

He did win the NIT playing home games against the likes of UNC-Wilmington. Better look out for your laurels, Dean Smith.

I saw no NIT references in Dan's post.

Again though, no need for facts to get in the way.

And how did Ewing's team end up when he was the best freshman center/prospect on the planet? Comparable to what Oden's squad did perhaps?

I disagree he's a poor coach.

Like with poker, I'm just going to play the board. I think it's good enough to beat your hand.

[FUDU]

...and I never stated he was terrible, just overrated as a coach on the floor.

So overrated = terrible, is that something that should be made permanent in the TCF glossary?

'terrible' is in the thread FUDU.

So when you show me I was speaking specifically to your post in citing Dan's post we'll put it in the glossary for you.

Let's revisit Gary Water's Rutgers career to define him when we get a chance too. Guy can't recruit a shooter in a world full of them. He blows today too.

Keep ignoring Dan's point and you're clearly going to reach the conclusion Matta is mediocre. It's only when you consider all the successes that the argument loses steam.

Not that that will stop anyone.

Your claim of witch hunt implies that is what the purpose of the thread was, which I take issue with b/c it was not my intention.

No NCAA bid last year and first rd loss this year is kind of mediocre, not dismissing his success while here just thinking he could be more consistent and a tad bit more dominant with the talent tOSU draws and that he has gotten.

Herm's point about the main focus of the O being perimeter shots with the only true center in the game is pretty accurate.

I'm rooting for Thad but his X's & O's have me a little shaken in my confidence of long term sustained success.

[peeker643]

...and I never stated he was terrible, just overrated as a coach on the floor.

So overrated = terrible, is that something that should be made permanent in the TCF glossary?

'terrible' is in the thread FUDU.

So when you show me I was speaking specifically to your post in citing Dan's post we'll put it in the glossary for you.

Let's revisit Gary Water's Rutgers career to define him when we get a chance too. Guy can't recruit a shooter in a world full of them. He blows today too.

Keep ignoring Dan's point and you're clearly going to reach the conclusion Matta is mediocre. It's only when you consider all the successes that the argument loses steam.

Not that that will stop anyone.

Your claim of witch hunt implies that is what the purpose of the thread was, which I take issue with b/c it was not my intention.

No NCAA bid last year and first rd loss this year is kind of mediocre, not dismissing his success while here just thinking he could be more consistent and a tad bit more dominant with the talent tOSU draws and that he has gotten.

Herm's point about the main focus of the O being perimeter shots with the only true center in the game is pretty accurate.

I'm rooting for Thad but his X's & O's have me a little shaken in my confidence of long term sustained success.

I've said it a dozen times here; I'd like to see the offense go inside out with the quality big men.

That said, his way took those three freshmen to the title game so I can't argue that point without ceding the results.

And if we're going to be precise, tOSU doesn't draw that talent nearly as much as Thad Matta recruits that talent.

He's had sustained success everywhere he's coached FUDU. That's the point.

Oden was a clear one and done. Conley and Cook were talented kids who developed enough in Matta's system to warranted being first round picks. I'm not going to begrudge the guy for that. And having kids go that route actually helps the program if it drives more kids to the program because of it.

[skatingtripods]

Matta's teams may be offensively challenged, but they are consistently one of the top defensive teams in the country. He's a great recruiter and a solid coach. Not a great coach, but a solid coach.

What can he honestly do about guys leaving? Seriously, is it that hard to understand that money talks? Oden wasn't ready. Conley wasn't ready. But, they both left. Matta didn't push them to.

You guys want to bitch about a MAAC team? Vanderbilt lost to them lost year. They hung right in with Louisville today. Siena's a good basketball team and they'll probably be right there in the hunt for a bid next year.

How do you think Wake Forest fans feel about losing to a Horizon League team?

[danwismar]

And having kids go that route actually helps the program if it drives more kids to the program because of it.

Agree to a point Peeks. If your program becomes a magnet for players who perceive it as a one-and-out springboard, you do risk attracting a certain type of kid, if you're not careful.

I don't see Matta as having been careless at all in that regard. Who knew Conley would go? Is he a mercenary? Turner? Clearly Oden was a risk, and Matta went into it with his eyes open, and in good faith, to try to get great players here.

I've sure got no gripe with Herm on this, and I didn't mean to single him out. And I didn't exactly have Matta's back in my game wrap. His team looked like crap in this game, and that's the way I called it.

I've heard Bill Simmons say the same thing (as Herm). He thinks (from afar) that Matta does less with more. Even Matta's biggest cheerleaders (and I'm not on that squad) have to admit that he has been disproportionately prone to the one-and out recently, and that it causes problems for the program. But what, exactly does that have to do with coaching the kids he's got, while he's got them?

And the folks who say he's all recruiter (or "terrible", or whatever) have a hard time explaining his success at Butler (Sweet Sixteen) and Xavier (Elite Eight) with their claim that his success depends on one-and-out NBA mercenaries. I'm asking this cause I don't know. Is anyone from either of those teams in the NBA? Ever? Posey?

[mattvan1]

Just a point of order, here, in the land of arm chair coaching myopia. I will neither persecute nor defend Matta, but I will point out that his offense is a motion offense, run by a large percentage of very successful NCAA teams. It is very similar to Marquette's. Now, if you want to pick at the execution of the offense, I'll have no argument. But to imply that a coach at his level, with his record of success, is clueless when it comes to X's and O's is absurd. Is it the right offense for his younger players? Maybe not. Is it an offense that perhaps benefits from players running it for 2-3 years? Probably. Is Matta a moron for running it? No.

BTW, the inbounds lob play from the baseline the other night tells me all I need to know about Matta and his X's and Os ability. It was a brilliant call at the right time. His BB knowledge is not the issue. If he has a fault, it's getting the talent to play within the system. His system, and a proven system.

[XUDawg]

Honestly, if his teams don't have top-five NBA draft picks at the most important positions on the floor, they never end up doing very much.

He took an undersized Xavier team with no first rounders to an Elite Eight before leaving for OSU.

I do think it's strange that he always finds these weird kids with marginal talent convinced they should bolt after one year. Conley, Cook, Koufous, Mullens, and possibly Buford. At other schools, somebody's there to make sure these kids don't make retarded decisions like that.

[XUDawg]

And the folks who say he's all recruiter (or "terrible", or whatever) have a hard time explaining his success at Butler (Sweet Sixteen) and Xavier (Elite Eight) with their claim that his success depends on one-and-out NBA mercenaries. I'm asking this cause I don't know. Is anyone from either of those teams in the NBA? Ever? Posey?

I can't speak for Butler, but for Xavier recently: Posey, David West, Brian Grant, Tyrone Hill, Aaron Williams, Derek Strong. Shorter careers for Romain Sato and Lionel Chalmers.

But his success at Xavier definitely wasn't do to recruiting, more toward your point. He won with Skip Prosser's recruits. He was long gone before his guys got playing time there.

[osucrazy18]

so lets just say would you rather have waters coach Osu than matta

[hermanfontenot]

so lets just say would you rather have waters coach Osu than matta

Better question: if Ron Lewis doesn't make that 3-pointer against Xavier two years ago, what's y'all's opinion of Matta now?

[jb]

so lets just say would you rather have waters coach Osu than matta

Waters can't work with talented players the way he can with overachievers. Thad doesn't have the "luxury" any more like he did at X U .

[HoodooMan]

Is it the right offense for his younger players? Maybe not. Is it an offense that perhaps benefits from players running it for 2-3 years? Probably. Is Matta a moron for running it? No.

Has there ever been a better reason than Greg Oden to tweak that offense? Probably not.

(I can't even think of who might be the 2nd most wasted college basketball talent in recent years.)

[jb]

Is it the right offense for his younger players? Maybe not. Is it an offense that perhaps benefits from players running it for 2-3 years? Probably. Is Matta a moron for running it? No.

Has there ever been a better reason than Greg Oden to tweak that offense? Probably not.

(I can't even think of who might be the 2nd most wasted college basketball talent in recent years.)

Didn't Oden actually play like 2 weeks for t OSU ?

How you gonna install a full O that way?

[HoodooMan]

Didn't Oden actually play like 2 weeks for t OSU ?

How you gonna install a full O that way?

So what kept him from being maximized like Melo, Durant, Mayo, and KSU Guy was the injury?

Installing the "Winging It" Offense would have been preferable, I'd think, to having Oden stand in the paint watching his teammates jack up 3s.

[stretch51]

so lets just say would you rather have waters coach Osu than matta

Better question: if Ron Lewis doesn't make that 3-pointer against Xavier two years ago, what's y'all's opinion of Matta now?

Thad Matta should be sending that guy Christmas Cards everyday.

I'm biased. I'd like to see what Keith Dambrot would do. If Dru Joyce had played defense against Doug Penno, the Zips would have been to the NCAA's 2 out of three years. You don't average 23 wins a year accidentally.

[Steve Buffum]

so lets just say would you rather have waters coach Osu than matta

Waters can't work with talented players the way he can with overachievers. Thad doesn't have the "luxury" any more like he did at X U .

There was a piece in the NYTimes Sunday about this: Waters largely failed at Rutgers because his players would not accept the kind of disciplinary approach that works at mid-majors.

[peeker643]

so lets just say would you rather have waters coach Osu than matta

Better question: if Ron Lewis doesn't make that 3-pointer against Xavier two years ago, what's y'all's opinion of Matta now?

Terrific point Herm. Eliminate the sweet 16s, elite 8s, Big10 championships, final four appearances, NCG appearance and you really don't have shit. Not at any of the schools he led there.

Jesus Christ.

Eliminate your uncle's balls and he's your aunt.

No fucking middle ground on these boards.
None. By anybody including those who should have more to say than "He's terrible". Really? He's terrible?

Okay.

What's terrible is the argument he's terrible. You want to say there are deficiencies that's one thing.

Terrible?

Pathetic take. Just is.

[jordan kramer]

so lets just say would you rather have waters coach Osu than matta

Better question: if Ron Lewis doesn't make that 3-pointer against Xavier two years ago, what's y'all's opinion of Matta now?

Terrific point Herm. Eliminate the sweet 16s, elite 8s, Big10 championships, final four appearances, NCG appearance and you really don't have shit. Not at any of the schools he led there.

Jesus Christ.

Eliminate your uncle's balls and he's your aunt.

No fucking middle ground on these boards.
None. By anybody including those who should have more to say than "He's terrible". Really? He's terrible?

Okay.

What's terrible is the argument he's terrible. You want to say there are deficiencies that's one thing.

Terrible?

Pathetic take. Just is.

+1000 peek has been running away with this argument the whole time. Matta'a record speaks for itself. has this guy ever not won 20 games? he's a damn good coach. this team wasn't that good this year. they'll be better when they get Lighty back next year, and if Turner and Buford stays around (granted its a big if) they can be a top ten team next year.

[peeker643]

I'm not trying to be dick. I'm really not.

Herm's about as solid a poster as there is and almost all his shit is tightly researched and spot on. This just isn't one of those times.

I get the criticisms, made them myself. But the whole body of work strongly suggests the guy is not 'terrible'. If he is he's the luckiest fuck in the history of college athletics and I'll take the terrible coach with the horseshow up his ass too.

But the Ron Lewis shit? Ughhh.. that's terrible.

Take away one Jordan shot, one Elway drive, one Byner fumble too while you're at it.

One bad game by Mesa if you will.

Take away that Chalmers three pointer last April as well and Memphis is at 60+ wins and counting with a title under their belt.
Jesus. The 'take away that one......' anything argument is just a horrible, horrible argument.

[davemanddd]

the nba has to do the same thing that the nfl did and go with a 3-year wait before being eligible for the draft. it was painfully obvious (with a few exceptions: lebron, kobe, dwight howard, et al) that kids jumping directly from high school was a bad idea, but to only make them stay one year was hardly an improvement, neither for the players nor for the schools and neither for the nba for that matter.

they need to only allow for early entry 3 years after the player's high school graduating class just like in the nfl and then you won't have situations like what matta has had to endure at ohio state over the last 2 seasons that has seen him lose 4 of his top freshman (oden, conley, cook, koufos) who all left after a "one and done" scenario. give him those same players over 3 years and i can guarantee you he would win national titles, plural.

after all, with those players as freshman, he went all the way to the ncaa title game and followed that up with an nit championship the following year. this year, he has another team dominated by freshman and sophomores and they went to the big ten title game, made the dance and were just one single solitary shot away from advancing to play a very over-rated louisville team that i have no doubt they could have beat.

siena was lucky to beat the buckeyes and it had nothing to do with whether or not matta was a good coach or not and i happen to think he is a very good coach despite what the outcome of that one single game was.

hopefully turner, buford and mullens don't fall into all of the greedy agents' clap-trap and declare themselves for the draft. if those players all come back next season along with a healthy david lighty and you can pretty much declare them a contender for the national title and it will all be because of matta's coaching.