Jennifer on BP

[martyinnewyork]

Enjoyed the article. I saw a lot of Brandon in Buffalo and always liked him, though he was pretty crappy during his pout year. Always had fun and seemed to be a good teammate, at least from where I sat.

And remember... JOE INGLETT IS gOD!!!

Please tell me you're not going to do a piece on Guthrie...

[redneckofsc]

Brandon Phillips, internet message board lightning rod. Not a week goes by where someone doesn't bring Phillips up and mention the fact that he went 30/30 in 2007, and that the Indians traded him for a single A relief pitcher to clear a roster spot for Buff's boy Ramon Vasquez.

Why didnt you just put:

Brandon Phillips, internet message board lightning rod. Not a week goes by where REDNECKOFSC doesn't bring Phillips up and mention the fact that he went 30/30 in 2007, and that the Indians traded him for a single A relief pitcher to clear a roster spot for Buff's boy Ramon Vasquez.

[Eckersley]

Good article. Long, but good.

"All of Shapiro's top baseball men - assistant general managers Neil Huntington and [Chris] Antonetti along with scouts - did not want to give up on Phillips. Wedge and his [coaches]1 did. Shapiro decided he was not going to fight over a twenty-fifth player."

It came down to a pissing match between BP & Wedge. Wedge won the battle, but did the Tribe & their fans win? Shapiro & his talent evaluators knew there was no middle infield talent thruout the Tribe's minor league system at the time of the trade. Wedge didn't realize this or he didn't care.

Shapiro made the ultimate mistake (& has admitted as much) as the final decision was his, but he clearly gave in to the wishes of his manager. The good thing is that Shapiro learned his lesson & hasn't allowed Wedge to dictate his roster moves since.

IMO, a manager should never place his interests over the best interests of the team. Wedge clearly did so in the case of BP. I hope he's been pleased with the output of our 2B over the past 3 seasons. Be careful what you wish for Wedgie.

When push came to shove, had the Tribe gotten rid of Wedge & kept BP, would they have been better off? The answer is obvious to me. Guys like Wedge are a dime a dozen. Losing him would've been addition by subtraction IMO.

BP may have some flaws, but he shines real bright when compared to the 2B that have worn a Tribe uniform the past 3 years. The Tribe is still looking for a decent 2B. Hopefully A-Cab will fill that void this year.

[Jennifer]

Brandon Phillips, internet message board lightning rod. Not a week goes by where someone doesn't bring Phillips up and mention the fact that he went 30/30 in 2007, and that the Indians traded him for a single A relief pitcher to clear a roster spot for Buff's boy Ramon Vasquez.

Why didnt you just put:

Brandon Phillips, internet message board lightning rod. Not a week goes by where REDNECKOFSC doesn't bring Phillips up and mention the fact that he went 30/30 in 2007, and that the Indians traded him for a single A relief pitcher to clear a roster spot for Buff's boy Ramon Vasquez.

You'll have to take it up with Rich; he writes the summaries.

[Jennifer]

Enjoyed the article. I saw a lot of Brandon in Buffalo and always liked him, though he was pretty crappy during his pout year. Always had fun and seemed to be a good teammate, at least from where I sat.

And remember... JOE INGLETT IS gOD!!!

Please tell me you're not going to do a piece on Guthrie...

Thanks. I have no intention to write specifically about Guthrie. That isn't to say that someday his name won't come-up in some discussion on a broad subject.

[nwizzle]

To this day I will never understand how, even with the whole Joe Inglett thing, you could take Ramon Vasquez over Brandon Phillips. It's ridiculous to think about. Vasquez, even with another option left, had no business being on a ML roster. He had a career OPS of .666 at the time.

I don't care how anyone spins the BP thing, I'm still not going to be happy about how the Indians handled it. Though Jennifer did a pretty good job of at least making me think about whether or not I would actually want BP on this team.

[DrPoove]

Great article, Jen.

Tribe brass knows they screwed up with BP. It was years and ago I see no need to belabor the point. As long as they learned their lesson the important thing now. Unless someone has a Flying DeLorean.

[redneckofsc]

Shapiro has said several time he made a mistake trading BP; I am still waiting for Wedge to admit it, but that will never happen.

[Stu]

Shapiro has said several time he made a mistake trading BP; I am still waiting for Wedge to admit it, but that will never happen.

because that changes things?

also, is there really going to be a thread on every one of jennifer's articles? why all the attention? i know this is going to sound like im being a jerk, but whatever.

[redneckofsc]

because that changes things?

Won't change anything, but I still want to hear it because I think Wedge still thinks he made the right decision.

[dazindiansfanuk]

because that changes things?

Won't change anything, but I still want to hear it because I think Wedge still thinks he made the right decision.

Shapiro made the trade.... it was his mistake.

Whether Wedge advised him to do it or not, Shapiro knows the buck stops with him and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want Wedge to come out a take responsibility for it.

[Prosecutor]

Thank you Jennifer for the extremely well-researched and well-written article on a very interesting topic. Despite all the discussion that has gone on and continues to go on, you found some fresh material to put out there.

In view of your findings it's clear to me the trade was not the disaster a lot of people think it was.

At the time, Peralta and Belliard were locked in as the starting SS and second baseman. The Tribe was planning on being a contender and there was no place to put Phillips, a .206 hitter in his previous ML appearances, except on the bench. You make a convincing argument that he would not have been happy as a utility infielder and it's likely his attitude would have hurt the team.

In addition, Inglett was a much better hitter, was more versatile in that he could also play third base, and was a left-handed hitter. And as a career minor leaguer he would have been thrilled just to be on a major league roster and his attitude would not have been an issue.

You also made a good point in that Phillips' offense in Cincy has not been as impressive as most people think. That 30 HR/30 SB season in '07 and All-Star appearance really cemented his reputation as an elite hitter at his position, which is not the case at all when you break down the numbers.

The only point I would make is that I think the Reds have been hitting Phillips either 3rd or 4th, which is where you want power, not walks and OBP. If the Reds had a Martinez and Hafner, they might have put Phillips 2nd or even leading off as a Grady Sizemore type leadoff hitter with both speed and power. In that case Phillips may have concentrated more on OBP and less on hitting 30 HR's, although I agree that at heart he wants to be a fence buster.

You didn't mention that the Tribe got Stevens in the deal, who was an obscure A level player when the trade was made, but is now on the verge of cracking a major league bullpen and was useful in acquiring DeRosa. Meanwhile, the Tribe is in good shape at second base with Cabrera for now and Valbuena and Phelps as good prospects once Cabrera shifts over to short.

I wonder how Phillips' career would have gone had he been on a very strong team like the Red Sox, where he would have hit 7th or 8th and been asked to play great defense and concentrate on OBP. A team with strong veteran leadership that wouldn't let him get away with pursuing his own agenda at the team's expense. In that situation he could have been really good.

But he's playing on a last place team that lacks power and plans on hitting him in the cleanup spot this year, where he'll be free to hack away to his heart's content and go for those 30 HR, 30 walk seasons and never reach his full potential. Maybe the Reds are fine with that. They're not going to win their division, they need to sell tickets, and chicks dig the long ball.

[Eckersley]

also, is there really going to be a thread on every one of jennifer's articles? why all the attention? i know this is going to sound like im being a jerk, but whatever.

Just a hunch Stu, but I'm guessing it's because this board is dominated by male posters & Jen is much better looking than any of the male writers for TCF.

[pup]

also, is there really going to be a thread on every one of jennifer's articles? why all the attention? i know this is going to sound like im being a jerk, but whatever.

Just a hunch Stu, but I'm guessing it's because this board is dominated by male posters & Jen is much better looking than any of the male writers for TCF.

Stu - Maybe she is just very good at picking topics that are of interest to the readers?

[Stu]

also, is there really going to be a thread on every one of jennifer's articles? why all the attention? i know this is going to sound like im being a jerk, but whatever.

Just a hunch Stu, but I'm guessing it's because this board is dominated by male posters & Jen is much better looking than any of the male writers for TCF.

ding ding ding ding ding. winner.

[Stu]

also, is there really going to be a thread on every one of jennifer's articles? why all the attention? i know this is going to sound like im being a jerk, but whatever.

Just a hunch Stu, but I'm guessing it's because this board is dominated by male posters & Jen is much better looking than any of the male writers for TCF.

Stu - Maybe she is just very good at picking topics that are of interest to the readers?

see post by Eckersley

[leadpipe]

I agree with Pup here for two reasons;

1. She has picked good topics thus far

and

2. I don't know what the hell she looks like.

[statmasta]

also, is there really going to be a thread on every one of jennifer's articles? why all the attention? i know this is going to sound like im being a jerk, but whatever.

Just a hunch Stu, but I'm guessing it's because this board is dominated by male posters & Jen is much better looking than any of the male writers for TCF.

No, I have no idea what she looks like, but I do think she's already one of the best writers on this site. I've thoroughly enjoyed every article she's written so far.

On a side note, I wonder how many people are actually going to read this and how many will just ignore it and continue thinking BP is the greatest second baseman in the majors.

[redneckofsc]

On a side note, I wonder how many people are actually going to read this and how many will just ignore it and continue thinking BP is the greatest second baseman in the majors.

Well, count me as 1.

[pup]

On a side note, I wonder how many people are actually going to read this and how many will just ignore it and continue thinking BP is the greatest second baseman in the majors.

Well, count me as 1.

Reader, or ignorer?

[Stu]

On a side note, I wonder how many people are actually going to read this and how many will just ignore it and continue thinking BP is the greatest second baseman in the majors.

Well, count me as 1.

good to know you wont let get facts in the way of your beliefs.

[Eckersley]

On a side note, I wonder how many people are actually going to read this and how many will just ignore it and continue thinking BP is the greatest second baseman in the majors.

statmasta, have you seen anyone on this board suggest that BP was the greatest second baseman in the majors?

I haven't & he isn't. Doesn't diminish the fact that it was a mistake. Why don't you just leave it at that?

[statmasta]

On a side note, I wonder how many people are actually going to read this and how many will just ignore it and continue thinking BP is the greatest second baseman in the majors.

statmasta, have you seen anyone on this board suggest that BP was the greatest second baseman in the majors?

I haven't & he isn't. Doesn't diminish the fact that it was a mistake. Why don't you just leave it at that?

Not on this board, but I haven't been on this board very long.

I have seen other Indians fans suggest that, though.

[peeker643]

Constantly rehashing it doesn't make it any more egregious a mistake either. Nor does citing the stats of an increasingly mediocre player who's arguably no better than the guy we have at 2b right now.

Tattoo his likeness on your chests or cheeks and move on.

Bad trade. Not nearly fatal as the cancer club would have people believe.

And I think Jen is the pen name Mansfield Lucas uses when writing on the Indians. Maybe some of you are still attracted. But I'm thinking it's more the topics and the time he spends on working through the issues that elicit threads.

[dpdad]

Well researched article. I was pissed about the trade at the time and still am, primarily because of the ripple effect throughout the last few years. We can't forget also that because of the hole at 2B due to the trade of BP, the Tribe traded Kouz to San Diego for Barfield, thus opening up a hole at 3B, which was magnified by the flop of Marte.

[swerb]

I agree, the topic choices and way Jen has attacked them has been super.

Two more really creative pieces coming. First one, already in my inbox, is excellent.

[skatingtripods]

I haven't & he isn't. Doesn't diminish the fact that it was a mistake. Why don't you just leave it at that?

Right. And it was a mistake that happened three years ago. So why don't you just leave it at that and quit talking about it?

Obviously this thread is about Phillips, but he comes up in every god damn conversation on these boards. Get over it already.

Maybe we can add Ryan Ludwick to the next discussion.

[Jennifer]

I haven't & he isn't. Doesn't diminish the fact that it was a mistake. Why don't you just leave it at that?

Right. And it was a mistake that happened three years ago. So why don't you just leave it at that and quit talking about it?

Obviously this thread is about Phillips, but he comes up in every god damn conversation on these boards. Get over it already.

Maybe we can add Ryan Ludwick to the next discussion.

You've uncovered my real reason for writing the piece. Now when Phillips name comes up all I need to do is paste a link into a post for my reply.

[Stu]

You've uncovered my real reason for writing the piece. Now when Phillips name comes up all I need to do is paste a link into a post for my reply.

maybe you can have rich write a macro for that on the forum.

[pup]

I haven't & he isn't. Doesn't diminish the fact that it was a mistake. Why don't you just leave it at that?

Right. And it was a mistake that happened three years ago. So why don't you just leave it at that and quit talking about it?

Obviously this thread is about Phillips, but he comes up in every god damn conversation on these boards. Get over it already.

Maybe we can add Ryan Ludwick to the next discussion.

You've uncovered my real reason for writing the piece. Now when Phillips name comes up all I need to do is paste a link into a post for my reply.

May I do the same with your article?

Anyway we can right a code into the software that every single time someone writes that name, a reply is automatically created posting the article?

[Eckersley]

I haven't & he isn't. Doesn't diminish the fact that it was a mistake. Why don't you just leave it at that?

Right. And it was a mistake that happened three years ago. So why don't you just leave it at that and quit talking about it?

Obviously this thread is about Phillips, but he comes up in every god damn conversation on these boards. Get over it already.

Maybe we can add Ryan Ludwick to the next discussion.

I can understand your frustration when reading about BP in a thread about something else, but this thread isn't about something else. You read it anyway. In this case, your level of frustration was self inflicted, was it not?

[skatingtripods]

I haven't & he isn't. Doesn't diminish the fact that it was a mistake. Why don't you just leave it at that?

Right. And it was a mistake that happened three years ago. So why don't you just leave it at that and quit talking about it?

Obviously this thread is about Phillips, but he comes up in every god damn conversation on these boards. Get over it already.

Maybe we can add Ryan Ludwick to the next discussion.

I can understand your frustration when reading about BP in a thread about something else, but this thread isn't about something else. You read it anyway. In this case, your level of frustration was self inflicted, was it not?

Well, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy in your comment of "leaving it at that". You want someone to just leave something as it is on the surface, but you can't leave alone the fact that this trade was 3 years ago and Brandon Phillips would not have won us anything more than we've won, except maybe a game or two in the standings here and there.

There's no changing the situation, and you can tell that the trade has plagued this organization since. Haven't you gotten what you wanted out of it already? We didn't cut the cord on Marte. We aren't giving up on young guys as quickly as we did with BP. Didn't you want them to learn a lesson from it? It's pretty safe to say that they have. So what more can possibly come out of the entire situation?

[gotribe31]

Outstanding article. Some people still won't allow the facts to get in the way of a good story, but while the Reds won the trade, it wasn't nearly as lopsided as some people would have you believe. BP is just a vehicle with which Wedge and Shaprio bashing can be transported, nothing more.

And Stu, you sound jealous. I doubt many of us know or care what Jennifer looks like. That was a great article, one that caused me to violate my personal commandment against posting BP related material.

[Eckersley]

Brandon Phillips would not have won us anything more than we've won, except maybe a game or two in the standings here and there.

I respectfully disagree with that statement.

He may have been the difference between a ring or no ring in 2007. A few more wins that year & we have home field over the Bosox & that could've been the difference.

I think we'd have won a lot more games over the past 3 years, had we kept him & gotten rid of the guy who didn't want him on the team.

Oh well.

[peeker643]

Brandon Phillips would not have won us anything more than we've won, except maybe a game or two in the standings here and there.

I respectfully disagree with that statement.

He may have been the difference between a ring or no ring in 2007. A few more wins that year & we have home field over the Bosox & that could've been the difference.

I think we'd have won a lot more games over the past 3 years, had we kept him & gotten rid of the guy who didn't want him on the team.

Oh well.

Sorry all, Eck's exactly right.

Instead of being up 3-1 over the Sox with the Cy Young winner on the mound at home in Game 5 they would have swept the series 4-0 and never been in that position had they had BP 5 months earlier.

It's a good point.

[Steve Buffum]

It's a good point.

Yeah, but if he parts his hair right, no one will notice.

(rimshot)

[OSU819903]

Brandon Phillips would not have won us anything more than we've won, except maybe a game or two in the standings here and there.

I respectfully disagree with that statement.

He may have been the difference between a ring or no ring in 2007. A few more wins that year & we have home field over the Bosox & that could've been the difference.

I think we'd have won a lot more games over the past 3 years, had we kept him & gotten rid of the guy who didn't want him on the team.

Oh well.

Sorry all, Eck's exactly right.

Instead of being up 3-1 over the Sox with the Cy Young winner on the mound at home in Game 5 they would have swept the series 4-0 and never been in that position had they had BP 5 months earlier.

It's a good point.

Or he might have gone 2-18 in the series and hit worse than the .243 that ACAB put up. What if's aren't good points they're unprovable and they can't take into account the butterfly effect that results from every move thereafter.

[TitoFrancona]

because that changes things?

Won't change anything, but I still want to hear it because I think Wedge still thinks he made the right decision.

Shapiro made the trade.... it was his mistake.

Whether Wedge advised him to do it or not, Shapiro knows the buck stops with him and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want Wedge to come out a take responsibility for it.

The point you missed is that Shapiro owned up to it. But we all know that Wedge was the one who convinced Shapiro that Vazquez was a better fit than Brandon. Now I'm not a Wedge basher - per se, but the truth is, he let Shapiro take 100% of the blame for this and to my knowledge, never once admitted it was his choice.

That imo, shows a lack of character on Wedge's part.

[skatingtripods]

Brandon Phillips would not have won us anything more than we've won, except maybe a game or two in the standings here and there.

I respectfully disagree with that statement.

He may have been the difference between a ring or no ring in 2007. A few more wins that year & we have home field over the Bosox & that could've been the difference.

I think we'd have won a lot more games over the past 3 years, had we kept him & gotten rid of the guy who didn't want him on the team.

Oh well.

Sorry all, Eck's exactly right.

Instead of being up 3-1 over the Sox with the Cy Young winner on the mound at home in Game 5 they would have swept the series 4-0 and never been in that position had they had BP 5 months earlier.

It's a good point.

Or he might have gone 2-18 in the series and hit worse than the .243 that ACAB put up. What if's aren't good points they're unprovable and they can't take into account the butterfly effect that results from every move thereafter.

Right. And who's to say that having Cabrera in the lineup for more than just 45 games in 2007 doesn't win us a few more games? Does BP put up those kind of numbers in a less-friendly park in the American League? I say absolutely not.

I have a hard time believing that Brandon Phillips wins us that series. Not to mention, if we still split the first two games, we probably come home down 3-1 or done after three straight at Fenway.

[Eckersley]

because that changes things?

Won't change anything, but I still want to hear it because I think Wedge still thinks he made the right decision.

Shapiro made the trade.... it was his mistake.

Whether Wedge advised him to do it or not, Shapiro knows the buck stops with him and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want Wedge to come out a take responsibility for it.

The point you missed is that Shapiro owned up to it. But we all know that Wedge was the one who convinced Shapiro that Vazquez was a better fit than Brandon. Now I'm not a Wedge basher - per se, but the truth is, he let Shapiro take 100% of the blame for this and to my knowledge, never once admitted it was his choice.

That imo, shows a lack of character on Wedge's part.

Yep Tito. It's quite easy to talk the talk.

[The Brook]

I just got done reading the article and my opinions
1. Very well written
2. Too long (which made it boring to me)
3. Too much unnessesary bashing IMO (especially when trying to be funny)
4. Bad topic, I can think of probably 2,000 things I'd rather read about the Indians other than rehashing a topic that is brought up all the time on the message board. (I know the title should have tipped me off to the subject matter haha but I try to read every article on the site).

[Chiefroy]

Fook Brandon Whats-his-name , I miss Joe Inglett.(need "grinder" smilie)

Nice column, Jennifer.

[peeker643]

I just got done reading the article and my opinions
1. Very well written
2. Too long (which made it boring to me)
3. Too much unnessesary bashing IMO (especially when trying to be funny)
4. Bad topic, I can think of probably 2,000 things I'd rather read about the Indians other than rehashing a topic that is brought up all the time on the message board. (I know the title should have tipped me off to the subject matter haha but I try to read every article on the site).

So aside from the topic sucking and it boring you and containing far too much criticism leveled at the protagonist it was well written? You mean from a grammar and capitalization standpoint or what?

And Eck read it all and commented only on the fact that he doesn't like Wedge and that the Indians and their Cy Young Winner wouldn't have blown a 3-1 ALCS lead at home if BP was at 2b in June of '07.

Allllriiiighty then. Good talk Rusty.
It's definitely almost baseball season. Where the hell is Duane Kuiper? Nosco start a site or something that that guy took off for? One that requires an algorithm as a password?

FML.

The column was terrific. Well done.

[leadpipe]

I just got done reading the article and my opinions
1. Very well written
2. Too long (which made it boring to me)
3. Too much unnessesary bashing IMO (especially when trying to be funny)
4. Bad topic, I can think of probably 2,000 things I'd rather read about the Indians other than rehashing a topic that is brought up all the time on the message board. (I know the title should have tipped me off to the subject matter haha but I try to read every article on the site).

So aside from the topic sucking and it boring you and containing far too much criticism leveled at the protagonist it was well written? You mean from a grammar and capitalization standpoint or what?

And Eck read it all and commented only on the fact that he doesn't like Wedge and that the Indians and their Cy Young Winner wouldn't have blown a 3-1 ALCS lead at home if BP was at 2b in June of '07.

Allllriiiighty then. Good talk Rusty.
It's definitely almost baseball season. Where the hell is Duane Kuiper? Nosco start a site or something that that guy took off for? One that requires an algorithm as a password?

FML.

The column was terrific. Well done.

Eck, How the hell would BP make a difference with Wedge managing?

[redneckofsc]

Serious question: Have the Indians ever had anyone make it to the Hall-of-Fame that they traded away (before there career peaked)?

[The Brook]

I just got done reading the article and my opinions
1. Very well written
2. Too long (which made it boring to me)
3. Too much unnessesary bashing IMO (especially when trying to be funny)
4. Bad topic, I can think of probably 2,000 things I'd rather read about the Indians other than rehashing a topic that is brought up all the time on the message board. (I know the title should have tipped me off to the subject matter haha but I try to read every article on the site).

So aside from the topic sucking and it boring you and containing far too much criticism leveled at the protagonist it was well written? You mean from a grammar and capitalization standpoint or what?

quote]

Obviously well thought out, flowed nicely, well researched. It was well written, I don't know how else to descibe it. If I had no knowledge of the Brandon Phillips incident I have no doubt I would have enjoyed the article. BUT I'm a huge Cleveland fan, I read the message boards, and I just don't think there is much more anyone can bring to this topic. (Other than maybe a sit down interview with both Wedge and Phillips haha) Therefore I just thought it was a bad topic for this website. As a Cleveland Indian fan I would much rather read about any of our current players, coaches, front office people, fans, anything other than Brandon Phillips. So like I said, I probably shouldn't have read it, but I like to read everything on this site.

If you enjoyed it great. I thought this thread was where we could put our opinions and so I did. And I guarantee any writer would appreciate true opinions rather than "good job jennifer, I liked it"

[Toxicadam]

Good job again Jennifer. I cross-posted this at a few other places.

Wasn't there some kind of riff between Phillips and hitting coach, Eddie Murray? Or was that just speculation? Did you run across any confirmation of this in your research?

[peeker643]

I just got done reading the article and my opinions
1. Very well written
2. Too long (which made it boring to me)
3. Too much unnessesary bashing IMO (especially when trying to be funny)
4. Bad topic, I can think of probably 2,000 things I'd rather read about the Indians other than rehashing a topic that is brought up all the time on the message board. (I know the title should have tipped me off to the subject matter haha but I try to read every article on the site).

So aside from the topic sucking and it boring you and containing far too much criticism leveled at the protagonist it was well written? You mean from a grammar and capitalization standpoint or what?

quote]

Obviously well thought out, flowed nicely, well researched. It was well written, I don't know how else to descibe it. If I had no knowledge of the Brandon Phillips incident I have no doubt I would have enjoyed the article. BUT I'm a huge Cleveland fan, I read the message boards, and I just don't think there is much more anyone can bring to this topic. (Other than maybe a sit down interview with both Wedge and Phillips haha) Therefore I just thought it was a bad topic for this website. As a Cleveland Indian fan I would much rather read about any of our current players, coaches, front office people, fans, anything other than Brandon Phillips. So like I said, I probably shouldn't have read it, but I like to read everything on this site.

If you enjoyed it great. I thought this thread was where we could put our opinions and so I did.

Nope. That explains it. I honestly didn't know what the heck you were saying even though your post was grammatically correct and flowed nicely. Now I get ya.

And I'm glad you read all of it on the front page. Way, WAY more than I do.

[Eckersley]

I just got done reading the article and my opinions
1. Very well written
2. Too long (which made it boring to me)
3. Too much unnessesary bashing IMO (especially when trying to be funny)
4. Bad topic, I can think of probably 2,000 things I'd rather read about the Indians other than rehashing a topic that is brought up all the time on the message board. (I know the title should have tipped me off to the subject matter haha but I try to read every article on the site).

So aside from the topic sucking and it boring you and containing far too much criticism leveled at the protagonist it was well written? You mean from a grammar and capitalization standpoint or what?

And Eck read it all and commented only on the fact that he doesn't like Wedge and that the Indians and their Cy Young Winner wouldn't have blown a 3-1 ALCS lead at home if BP was at 2b in June of '07.

Allllriiiighty then. Good talk Rusty.
It's definitely almost baseball season. Where the hell is Duane Kuiper? Nosco start a site or something that that guy took off for? One that requires an algorithm as a password?

FML.

The column was terrific. Well done.

Eck, How the hell would BP make a difference with Wedge managing?

He wouldn't as they both couldn't exist on the same team. BP didn't bow down to the massa.

Had BP been kept, Wedge more than likely would've had an aneurism, resigned or his face would've ticked off.

[dazindiansfanuk]

because that changes things?

Won't change anything, but I still want to hear it because I think Wedge still thinks he made the right decision.

Shapiro made the trade.... it was his mistake.

Whether Wedge advised him to do it or not, Shapiro knows the buck stops with him and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want Wedge to come out a take responsibility for it.

The point you missed is that Shapiro owned up to it. But we all know that Wedge was the one who convinced Shapiro that Vazquez was a better fit than Brandon. Now I'm not a Wedge basher - per se, but the truth is, he let Shapiro take 100% of the blame for this and to my knowledge, never once admitted it was his choice.

That imo, shows a lack of character on Wedge's part.

I haven't missed the point, I think I made the point clearly that whether we believe Wedge was responsible or not, Shapiro sees himself as the man responsible as it was him that made the final call.

I also made the point that I don't think Shapiro would want Wedge to come out an apologise for it as he doesn't need a scapegoat..... if he wanted a scapegoat he could've easily canned Wedge to get one.

You can call that lack of character if you want, but I don't see it.

Wedge hasn't apologised for "driving" Phillips off the team, Phillips hasn't apologised for being an ass whilst he was an Indian - that was a matter of two people not seeing eye-to-eye. Shapiro is the one who made a personnel decision based on personal feelings, that was the mistake.

Wedge had the opinion to trade Phillips, other members of the front office said it wasn't the right thing to do. It wasn't Wedges decision, it was Shapiros decision based on the imput of all his baseball people, not just Wedge.

I say this as the most indifferent follower of Wedge on the planet.