What Winslow Deal Means?

[peeker643]

I haven't dedicated much time to the deal from any standpoint other than the here and now. But does this deal clearly signal another complete rebuild is afoot and therefore mean you're not likely to see any 'name' players signed in free agency? Is it a clear indication that Mangini and Kokinis will look to stockpile draft picks and build predominantly from the ground up?

Does it give credence to Pluto's article that the Browns are building up DA in their description of him competing for a starting job solely to drive up his value for another pick-getting deal?

Personally I think the answers to the rebuilding, free agent and DA questions are all 'yes'.

There's already a thread for opinions on the deal itself so I'd appreciate that this thread deal more with the implications and the basis behind the deal.

Thanks.

[noles1]

I'm not willing to commit to that yet, simply because I do not truly believe that the new staff thought much of K2 in the first place.

Now if Rogers gets moved, then that's the sign. But as far as moving K2 and DA, I think signs could still point to us remaining competitive and hoping we strike some gold with a few selections.

Now our FA mentality could be unique to see as well, because I see us going more for value than a homerun. Expect 3-4 effecient and quality signings (watch their ages, that could be an indicator) rather than the 1-2 splashes.

Will be interesting to watch.

[OSU819903]

Just quick reflection on the trade. I think it signifies a "blow-up" of sorts. I've always leaned this way, but I think DA is for sure gone. If the right deal is there for BE, I think he's gone. I think they're going to try and work it out with Rogers, but if they can't he's gone. And please don't ask me to fill in all the holes that would be created, the thread asked for impressions of what this deal indicates. To me it indicates that they want to stock up and fill the roster with their type of players. All in all, I will take this approach as opposed to trading all of our picks last year for player.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I'd agree, this trade is an admission of rebuilding. They must see Rucker as the future of the TE spot. I'd like to see what he has for a whole season, Heiden can help school him. How many facelifts can one team have before you can't recognize it anymore?

[consigliere]

To me, Winslow is the first domino.

I expect Edwards, Rogers and DA all to be either traded or released now. This is a clear signal to me that we are in rebuild mode.

As a season ticketholder since they came back, and barely hanging on to those tickets, I am not sure how I feel about yet another reboot. On one hand I can see where it is needed, but on the other I find it extremely disappointing we are letting our top players go (even if some are problem childs, talent outweighs everything to me). It would be one thing if we had immediate options to replace the guys, or there was no way they were coming back because they were FA bound and wanted to jet....man, with my season ticket deadline coming up on April 1st this doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

This new regime has a lot to prove, at least to me. They get no mulligans and free passes or benefit of the doubt anymore. That may be unfair, but after three failed previous regimes, I have grown small on patience.

[4thQtrGlory]

I truly believe that ManKok is going break this car down and sell it for parts. I would not be suprised to see Schaffer and Stallworth get traded for picks in the 4th to 7th round. I could also see Tucker and Friedman cut. I am also starting to wonder what is going to happen to Braylon. He was just as much of a headcase as K2 and probably has more trade value.

[pup]

I really thought the reason we chose Mangini and Kokinis was because they did not feel it was a total rebuild, so I don't know if this move signifies that.

I think they see an attitude problem with the Browns. From an outside observer, I am sure it seems around the league that K2 was the height of that problem. I am guessing they had their mind on moving him from day 1.

Now, should other "problems" start to get moved, then obviously they either changed their minds or once they got a deeper look think we are way worse than they thought. Which makes sense. What better way to impress the new boss than to lower expectations and buy yourself the time of a rebuild. Who knows, maybe after a couple of 5 win seasons, we will blind squirrel a 10 win and get everyone contract extensions.

[View from 171]

Consig, I too am a long time season tickets holder who often questions why I still spend the $1000/season.

The only thing that keeps me going (although maybe a dumb reason) is because although the games drive you nuts, there is nothing like getting up early on a Sunday morning, layering on the clothings, loading up the truck and meeting your buddies in the parking lot for 4-5 hours of tailgating. If it wasn't for the tailgating my tickets would have been gone long ago!

[justmebd]

This, to me, is clearly the beginning of a rebuild. I also expect DA to be gone very soon (If not by the end of the day).

BE goes for the right deal, ManKok aren't going to give him up for middle ground stuff.

Rogers is it's own animal but if he's not on board this train, then they'll toss him off.

As long as they have a plan (And assuming it's a good one) this could be the start of something good. But that's only about the 10th time we've said that lately.

[OSU819903]

This, to me, is clearly the beginning of a rebuild. I also expect DA to be gone very soon (If not by the end of the day).

BE goes for the right deal, ManKok aren't going to give him up for middle ground stuff.

Rogers is it's own animal but if he's not on board this train, then they'll toss him off.

As long as they have a plan (And assuming it's a good one) this could be the start of something good. But that's only about the 10th time we've said that lately.

I was thinking about this earlier. Does anyone know if they have to wait until March to pay the roster bonus. Could they pay it now, if it meant a trade would go down sooner? (Note: Personally I do not think a DA trade comes until draft day but just wondering)

[hornet84]

I don't think this signals a rebuild. You traded a TE with a history of injuries and the threat of walking out if he did not get a new contract. Does TE play a big part in Magini's offense?

The next few weeks will tell a lot. The owner may be willing to be patient, but the fans are not. I hope ManKok is smart enough to realize that a total rebuild is not acceptable. I understand that the new regime want to put their own stamp on this franchise, but I hope they don't just blow the whole thing up.

I am ok with trading K2 and DA, but I would not do a total house cleaning. I am hoping the powers that be are thinking along similar lines.

[OSU819903]

Does trading K2, DA, Rogers and BE really signify a complete rebuild? I know on its' face that seems like a ridiculous question but seriously: K2 we all knew had severe injury problems from the past, DA has been rumored forever, Rogers has been here one year and rumors have it that HE WANTS out, and BE has only lived up to his potential one year. There is alot of big names there, but what are we really losing?

[pup]

Quick question...

Does the trade of K2 make it seem more likely that the coaching staff may prefer DA? It would seem Kellen is the perfect target for Quinn.

[4thQtrGlory]

Quick question...

Does the trade of K2 make it seem more likely that the coaching staff may prefer DA? It would seem Kellen is the perfect target for Quinn.

I dont think thats the case (but i like how your mind works). I think that the reason DA hasnt gone anywhere yet is because of his bonus and that he will be out the door on draft day once teams are stuck with trading to get DA or drafting Rhett Bomar.

[OSU819903]

I don't think K2 has anything to do with DA. K2 was going to be looking for more money, has horrendous injury history, and may only have 2-3 years left. This was a maximum value trade IMO.

[bw]

I don't think K2 has anything to do with DA. K2 was going to be looking for more money, has horrendous injury history, and may only have 2-3 years left. This was a maximum value trade IMO.

I think this deal says more about Tampa then it does Cleveland. Tampa has/had the most room under the Cap, they fired Gruden, they're letting go of some seriously old players, (Galloway. Brooks) and I think THEY are the ones looking for a total rebuild. They surely do have the money to do it with. Sixty million under the Cap? Yikes!!

I think the Browns wanted their draft picks back. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they pretty much got back what they lost this year (a 3rd and a fifth?). I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that DA was the Bucs favored target but the Browns wouldn't let him go for what they wanted to offer. Who do the Bucs have at QB now? Luke McKown? Please.

This is all guessing, of course. But I hope the Browsn don't go through a total rebuild. I just don't think the Browsn were all that enamored of K2 and the offensive system they're going to implement doesn't require a star TE. At least, not a receiving 'star' TE.


Way, way too early to worry about the Browns going through a rebuild. IMO, they're close to fielding a very good team. And K2? Yeah, he was a good player but he wasn't a key player. Not too many TEs are. If any.

[CP]

I think we'd know more if we actually knew what the Browns' salary cap situation is/was. Some reports have the Browns in manageable shape; others claim that Savage screwed them up royally. If it's the latter more than the former, then selling high on some assets (K2, DA) accomplishes several goals.

Not sure a retooling of the team's salary structure represents a reboot, if that's the case.

[FUDU]

IMO this deal signifies that the Cleveland Browns have put people in place that are done pussy footing around when it comes to tough/questionable decision about players.

Sell high is the key in everything, but we rarely pull that trigger.

Winslow has some positives for sure but also enough negatives, and let's face it the TE position (while poorly used by this organization for years now) is not the position that puts a team on the cusp of puts them over the edge. We have ample supplies in the cupboard to fill his 12 games a year shoes.

There is a very simple formula for success on the football field, the formula for succeeding on the business side of it is a bit different, today the Browns made a concerted effort to approach that side of things in the likes of more respected and successful franchises.

I love this deal.

Buh bye.

In 2-3 years I'll be saying remember that TE guy we used to have that had a famous father that played in the league, who was that guy again?

[antikryct]

I'm not quite sure what I'll need to see to signal rebuild, but I am sure this move with K2 isn't enough. It's just one move and we can hardly pretend we didn't see it coming.

* he hired a new agent prior to last season
* they floated the "I want a new contract" language during training camp
* he got in a tangle with the front office
* the whole injury thing and how that may affect his career

Throw in the pro-bowl I'm sure he feels he hasn't seen the money from, and that we go into this draft with a new front office and no 3rd and 5th round picks. They knew they wouldn't redo his contract, knew there would be negative ramifications because of it so they shopped him.

The dude is a player, no argument with that...but he would have been a problem going forward and they got value for him at a time when his value was highest and they needed it most. I like the trade, for both sides. We will miss him, but there were games last year where he just vanished. Then Heiden comes in and they move the chains. Of all the players we can get along without, he's at the top of my list.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

The two biggest names jettisoned so far are Winslow and Peek, both of whom had earned enough customer appreciation points at the Clinic that they could get a free knee scoping. I think Donny's on the right track. If Tampa Bay is waving a second this year for KW2 and his gimped knee, then so long, soldier. Sell high while you can.

It also doesn't hurt that we also have another solid TE in Heiden and a project in Rucker.

[jb]

New owner in 2012; God Williing.

[jb]

I'd agree, this trade is an admission of rebuilding. They must see Rucker as the future of the TE spot. I'd like to see what he has for a whole season, Heiden can help school him. How many facelifts can one team have before you can't recognize it anymore?

Pay attention.

Word was Randy Jams hired Manginius because he said he could take this team and win, and Pioli told him he needed to rebuild.

First move Manpastyfatface does is trade the best player on the team.

Says what about Lucky Sperm Kid?

[jb]

The two biggest names jettisoned so far are Winslow and Peek, both of whom had earned enough customer appreciation points at the Clinic that they could get a free knee scoping. I think Donny's on the right track. If Tampa Bay is waving a second this year for KW2 and his gimped knee, then so long, soldier. Sell high while you can.

It also doesn't hurt that we also have another solid TE in Heiden and a project in Rucker.

Stick to the Association. You got mkad game there.

Heiden's back is shit and Rucker is a savege Day Two pick. Mayb as well be a slum dog millionaire contestent.

[jb]

IMO this deal signifies that the Cleveland Browns have put people in place that are done pussy footing around when it comes to tough/questionable decision about players.

Sell high is the key in everything, but we rarely pull that trigger.

Winslow has some positives for sure but also enough negatives, and let's face it the TE position (while poorly used by this organization for years now) is not the position that puts a team on the cusp of puts them over the edge. We have ample supplies in the cupboard to fill his 12 games a year shoes.

There is a very simple formula for success on the football field, the formula for succeeding on the business side of it is a bit different, today the Browns made a concerted effort to approach that side of things in the likes of more respected and successful franchises.

I love this deal.

Buh bye.

In 2-3 years I'll be saying remember that TE guy we used to have that had a famous father that played in the league, who was that guy again?

I'll remember yer Mom.

[jb]

Way, way too early to worry about the Browns going through a rebuild. .

How can you be so obtuse?

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

Stick to the Association. You got mkad game there.

Heiden's back is shit and Rucker is a savege Day Two pick. Mayb as well be a slum dog millionaire contestent.

Kokinis traded away someone's binky.

One Pro Bowl and two healthy seasons in five years in brown and orange. The best offer on the table was a second and a next-year fifth. I love the kid's talent and attitude, but we all knew this day was coming after Evel Knievel Day at the Corporate College and even more so when he hit the inactive list last year and the offense improved. We missed the chance to sell high on DA, I think its a fairly good sign they recognized and sold high here.

And WTF is with Heiden's back? Dude blew out his *CLs, I haven't caught anything about a back injury.

[jfiling]

The Browns already have K2's replacement on the roster. His name is Josh Cribbs.

[peeker643]

The Browns already have K2's replacement on the roster. His name is Josh Cribbs.

Bingo.

First two-way All-Pro Safety-TE in 100 years or so.

[leadpipe]

Stick to the Association. You got mkad game there.

Heiden's back is shit and Rucker is a savege Day Two pick. Mayb as well be a slum dog millionaire contestent.

Kokinis traded away someone's binky.

One Pro Bowl and two healthy seasons in five years in brown and orange. The best offer on the table was a second and a next-year fifth. I love the kid's talent and attitude, but we all knew this day was coming after Evel Knievel Day at the Corporate College and even more so when he hit the inactive list last year and the offense improved. We missed the chance to sell high on DA, I think its a fairly good sign they recognized and sold high here.

And WTF is with Heiden's back? Dude blew out his *CLs, I haven't caught anything about a back injury.

Kokinis didn't trade anyone.

By the way, to the cat who doesn't believe trading K2 and possible Rogers and BE signals a rebuild, I would ask what team in the now gets rid of their best players.

They have very little talent. A portion of the best talent is fractured.

If they DON'T rebuild, they are nuts.

ILO.

[FUDU]

IMO this deal signifies that the Cleveland Browns have put people in place that are done pussy footing around when it comes to tough/questionable decision about players.

Sell high is the key in everything, but we rarely pull that trigger.

Winslow has some positives for sure but also enough negatives, and let's face it the TE position (while poorly used by this organization for years now) is not the position that puts a team on the cusp of puts them over the edge. We have ample supplies in the cupboard to fill his 12 games a year shoes.

There is a very simple formula for success on the football field, the formula for succeeding on the business side of it is a bit different, today the Browns made a concerted effort to approach that side of things in the likes of more respected and successful franchises.

I love this deal.

Buh bye.

In 2-3 years I'll be saying remember that TE guy we used to have that had a famous father that played in the league, who was that guy again?

I'll remember yer Mom.

I'll take you a bit more serious when you put up a list of the past 20 some odd Superbowl winners that had the best TE in the game at the time.

Mom says hi though, and you are a few years late on the child support.

Iggy grads, pfft.

[Triple-S]

I've been thinking on this more,

Call me crazy, but this sort of reminds me of a trade that a certain GM of our Cleveland Indians would make. Who just so happens to have connections to Mangini and Kokinis.

Not saying that's good or bad (OH SNAP! BRANDON PHILLIPS=KII?), just sounds like something he would do.

A this point I'd rid myself of DA, and Stallworthless.

I would like to keep Braylon at this point, I think he's better to be paired up with a couple of other receivers, rather than Syndric Steptoe.

Shaun needs to shut the hell up and play ball, I'd keep him and then eventually trade him next year for a couple of draft picks, and get a NT in the 2010 draft.

[ramllov]

The DA deal is an addition by subtraction in more than one way.

The easy part, KW was going to be dealt, but, this deal was unexpected. The Browns got a deal that they could not refuse.

They got the 50th pick in the draft and the 147th this year, which will be about 156th to 160th, when the comp picks are awarded in April. Or they got the 50th pick in 2009 and the 5th round pick in 2010. It depends upon how reliable your source is and how much you trust your source.

So for argument sake I'll say the 50th and the 156th in this year's draft. Now these are two good picks, because this year's draft is weak at the top few picks as in, not great blue chip picks like 2004. These picks are more like 2005 early in the draft. However this draft is deep in good players

Martin Rucker is going to start for the Browns, KW is gone. The Browns paid a third round pick which is the 69th for Rucker and they got the 50th and 156th for KW. Now Rucker was never a blocker in college at the TE position, but neither was KW. KW will never be a blocker and since his motorcycle injury is a high risk player for injury and is not reliable. The Browns were not going to extend him, so this is a sweet deal. Martin Rucker will learn to block and he is a very good receiving TE. He will grow into a pretty good pass receiving NFL player. So, there is the subtraction. Both in outstanding money now and in the future.

The addition is the two picks. The 50th pick in this draft could be the future starting center Woods, Louisville. The 36th pick could be used for another player other than a center. So, you see the advantages.

The 5th, 36th, 50th, 100th, 156th and 178th (figured more comp picks were added to their original sixth pick), makes for a nice draft set. Now DA and BE trades in the next 50 days will add some more picks. There could be other deals for draft picks, which I am unaware of.

Add the second and third tier free agents the Browns are going to sign and there is going to be some starters and improved depth on this roster. So, the KW trade is the first step and I like it.

[ramllov]

I knew I needed to post my original ideas prior to reading this thread.

I was on a draft chat all day, off and on and rereading the transcript by scrolling the entries that I missed.

It was interesting to read and listen to the NFL Network most of the day.

I heard the KW trade, while I was driving home from the Dentist. I made some cheerful remarks and scared my daughters as I was driving.

I figured the Browns would get a second and fifth for KW, pretty much similar to what the Giants got for Shockey. I thought the trade was going to Philly, so Kokinis did better than I expected. I expected the 53rd pick and he got the 50th, good job.

Now, no one really thought the Browns were going to keep KW. This guy is hurt, unhappy and will never be the receiving threat he was expected to be once he had the cycle injury. He was high risk to injury and there was no way the new Browns management would ever take the risk of signing him for some big bucks for the next four or five years. It will be interesting to see what TB does.

The Browns were 4-12, they were not as good as their 10-6 record, they had a cheap schedule. The 2007 season was fun to watch.
Savage did the Browns no favors long-term. He screwed up the future cap, trying to sign the right players to make the 2008 season work. Who knows, if there would have been no injuries and they got off to a good start.

Well, that did not happen and he got fired.

Kokinis and Mangini are taking a slow and sure approach to the off season. Look for more draft choices and a signing of a few more than expected second and third tier free agents. This team needs starters and better depth players.

If you want to get emotional and call it a rebuild or blow it up and start again. You can pick those words if it makes you feel good.

All teams turn over 10 to 15 players every year. When you have a new GM and HC, your turnover could be more.

The Browns are trying to get additional cap money and additional draft choices. Some are trying to say, they are trying to repeat the Miami plan of 2008. Again, it is a wait and see.

I'll give you a few thoughts on the defense. They sign two free agents, one starter and another good veteran backup. They draft the best available LB in the draft with their fifth pick. Curry, Orakpo or E. Brown. They pick up a DE, say C. J. Mosley or Igor .......... from SD. They either resign Sean Jones or sign James Sanders, NE, S. or another guy. They sign a veteran CB free agent to compete with Brandon McDonald. The winner starts the loser is the nickel cornerback. The defense is not great, but better, with better depth.

Is this a rebuild or just an improved defense? There could be nine starters returning, with one free agent and one rookie addition starting. Now the depth will be greatly improved. There was no depth last year, with any experience in the necessary positions.

[DrPoove]

Torn on this.

Browns are obviously a worse team today without K2. But if they do get a 2 and a 5 for him by "selling high" isn't that the right thing to do? Isn't that what a lot of us bitched about what Savage did not do last year with the DA non-deal? So if they did the right thing by selling high, got max value and don't botch the picks is that better than keeping K2? Dunno, only time will tell.

Personally, I wasn't expecting much, record wise, from the Browns this season. Maybe is it because after three turd sandwiches I want to see a winner before I believe in Take #4. Would K2 have helped in 2009? Yes. Would him being here put us over the top? IMHO, no.

DA is gonna be gone so that doesn't affect "reboot status" but if they part ways with Rogers and some other veterans who otherwise would stick around like Shaffer or Tucker (Stallworth does not count) then to me that would trigger a reboot.

If they only trade or cut those who are expected; DA, Davis, Stallworth (please); then I wouldn't consider than a reboot. But I still don't expect much in 2009.

If that makes sense to anyone.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I'd agree, this trade is an admission of rebuilding. They must see Rucker as the future of the TE spot. I'd like to see what he has for a whole season, Heiden can help school him. How many facelifts can one team have before you can't recognize it anymore?

Pay attention.

Word was Randy Jams hired Manginius because he said he could take this team and win, and Pioli told him he needed to rebuild.

First move Manpastyfatface does is trade the best player on the team.

Says what about Lucky Sperm Kid?

Touche.........And Manpastyfatface is pretty fucking funny to this drunk mofo.

[el67ko]

K2 is one of my favorites but I don't mind the trade at all. It would be hard for anyone to argue with a strait face that any player on a horrific 4-12 team is the "best player", or indispensible. We saw Kellen's ceiling in 07. He is a good player. But we need many good players to even get back to competitive. Many many good players who don't have their bodies held together with glue and bubblegum. So I say stockpile the draft picks Mankok and lets see what you got in April. Keep the faith boys

[hermanfontenot]

First move Manpastyfatface does is trade the best player on the team.

1.) K2 wasn't the best player on the team by a long shot. Fourth-best. Maybe.

2.) If a tight end with one knee who can't block the writers on this site is your best player, it says more about the quality of the team than about the quality of the player.

[tired]

It's more about depth then it is rebuilding. Browns are fine at tight end without Winslow.

[pup]

It's more about depth then it is rebuilding. Browns are fine at tight end without Winslow.

[onlyindreams]

This is about selling high on a player that, while still good, is a shell of his former self athletically and probably has a shorter shelf life than normal. He is not worth signing an exorbitant long term contract. Winslow had 1 year where he was a great threat downfield, he spent the rest of his career being injured, or just solid as a pass catcher. He's not a gamebreaker- in the almost 3 seasons he managed to stay healthy, he only went above 10 yards per catch once- 13.5 in 2007. He had 3, 5 and 3 TD catches in those seasons. I'd rather get the much needed draft picks and plug in a TE that can block and chip in 400-500 yards. We have plenty of money to spend and now 3 of the first 50 picks, so we should be able to get some good weapons for the O and upgrade the D.

[waborat]

What does the friggin Winslow deal mean?????

It means that our anemic offense can continue on their streak of 24 qtrs of non-endzone bullshit

[ProgRocker]

What it means is that too many people on this board are cheap-arse McManamons -- bitter and angry and prepared to criticize absolutely everything the Browns do.

Even when it's something they had been clamoring to do themselves. Christ, even McManamon believes this was the right move.

Will it work? It all depends on whether ManKok can draft or not. We kinda know what Mangini will do (reaction: meh) but don't know what Kokinis brings to the party. We'll find out. But you can't criticize the Browns for NOT making moves to get draft choices and then, when they actually get draft choices, turn around and criticize them for actually making the same moves.

I think when KW ripped Lerner the writing was on the wall, and the fact they got a top 50 pick for him makes me very happy. I also think DA or Brady will go and that there's a fair chance Rogers could go if they can get a 1st for him (which I'd do in a second).

If Rogers and/or Braylon go, all it signals to me is that ManKok will put their eggs in building through the draft, AND more importantly, I think it means we'll actually see rookies play -- something Fat Romeo would never do, and something that has as much to do with the Browns' current state as the turmoil and the attitudes. It means ManKok is saying they think they can develop players and win that way, that they can create a system the best teams in our division have, and that is what will eventually make the Browns contenders. In other words, they won't roll the dice on a one-season run like Savage did and they won't depend on a player's resume to win like Butch did.

And, as long as they win, woot.

[Nicastro13]

There are obviously going to be reactions all over the board with this one, one He was a marquee guy for a team of nonames- high draft pick, pro bowler, one of the faces of the team. Others who see his injury history and are looking to the future.

Me I'm not sure, put him on my list with Speilman, Brown, Wilson as Jerseys I've bought for the New Brownies that will now collect dust in the closet. But what I do like is the fact that noone is safe, the new regime is doing what they feel is necessary to improve our club, if more heads roll so be it. We are going to build through the draft, and lower tier free agents. I guess I've been through enough where I can say lets see how the next few moves fall, more trades, releases, FA signings and the draft before we consider this a Reboot, restart, rebuild, re-whatever. It may make us a better team. I think we can all save alot of angst by sitting back and watching the whole show, before deciding how its going to finish by only watching the first act.

I mean it can't get much worse, rebuild or not we were 4 and freakin 12 last year.

[jameseboy]

As the old saying goes we can finish last with him or without him. Didnt exactly tear up the league with any of these guys.

I wonder what Vince Lombardi woulda done with any Winslow or Edwards or with the stuff coming from Rogers? Oh yeah first boat outa town.

Lets just hope these new guys can judge talent, I think the attitude adjustment is under way.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

1.) K2 wasn't the best player on the team by a long shot. Fourth-best. Maybe.

I have him behind Thomas, Steinbach, Rogers, Edwards, and maybe Cribbs. At least those guys have an excellent shot at staying healthy. Maybe Quinn as well if he's legit and last year's finger ouchie was a gork.

[OSU819903]

Stick to the Association. You got mkad game there.

Heiden's back is shit and Rucker is a savege Day Two pick. Mayb as well be a slum dog millionaire contestent.

Kokinis traded away someone's binky.

One Pro Bowl and two healthy seasons in five years in brown and orange. The best offer on the table was a second and a next-year fifth. I love the kid's talent and attitude, but we all knew this day was coming after Evel Knievel Day at the Corporate College and even more so when he hit the inactive list last year and the offense improved. We missed the chance to sell high on DA, I think its a fairly good sign they recognized and sold high here.

And WTF is with Heiden's back? Dude blew out his *CLs, I haven't caught anything about a back injury.

Kokinis didn't trade anyone.

By the way, to the cat who doesn't believe trading K2 and possible Rogers and BE signals a rebuild, I would ask what team in the now gets rid of their best players.

They have very little talent. A portion of the best talent is fractured.

If they DON'T rebuild, they are nuts.



I think I am the cat you're referring too that doesn't KNOW if it is a complete rebuild just b/c you trade 4 players. IMO nobody on this team is worthy of being untouchable (save JT perhaps.) Only 1 of the 4 that I questioned had a good year last year. So to say they are OUR best players really isn't saying much. Aside from Rogers you cannot honestly say that it would be hard to replace the PRODUCTION that K2, DA or BE brought to the field last year.

[pup]

Stick to the Association. You got mkad game there.

Heiden's back is shit and Rucker is a savege Day Two pick. Mayb as well be a slum dog millionaire contestent.

Kokinis traded away someone's binky.

One Pro Bowl and two healthy seasons in five years in brown and orange. The best offer on the table was a second and a next-year fifth. I love the kid's talent and attitude, but we all knew this day was coming after Evel Knievel Day at the Corporate College and even more so when he hit the inactive list last year and the offense improved. We missed the chance to sell high on DA, I think its a fairly good sign they recognized and sold high here.

And WTF is with Heiden's back? Dude blew out his *CLs, I haven't caught anything about a back injury.

Kokinis didn't trade anyone.

By the way, to the cat who doesn't believe trading K2 and possible Rogers and BE signals a rebuild, I would ask what team in the now gets rid of their best players.

They have very little talent. A portion of the best talent is fractured.

If they DON'T rebuild, they are nuts.



I think I am the cat you're referring too that doesn't KNOW if it is a complete rebuild just b/c you trade 4 players. IMO nobody on this team is worthy of being untouchable (save JT perhaps.) Only 1 of the 4 that I questioned had a good year last year. So to say they are OUR best players really isn't saying much. Aside from Rogers you cannot honestly say that it would be hard to replace the PRODUCTION that K2, DA or BE brought to the field last year.

Please notice. When the Browns were good (2007) those non-untouchables were Pro Bowlers. When they had bad years, the Browns stunk. So I think they are pretty important. When the goal is to be good.

[OSU819903]

Stick to the Association. You got mkad game there.

Heiden's back is shit and Rucker is a savege Day Two pick. Mayb as well be a slum dog millionaire contestent.

Kokinis traded away someone's binky.

One Pro Bowl and two healthy seasons in five years in brown and orange. The best offer on the table was a second and a next-year fifth. I love the kid's talent and attitude, but we all knew this day was coming after Evel Knievel Day at the Corporate College and even more so when he hit the inactive list last year and the offense improved. We missed the chance to sell high on DA, I think its a fairly good sign they recognized and sold high here.

And WTF is with Heiden's back? Dude blew out his *CLs, I haven't caught anything about a back injury.

Kokinis didn't trade anyone.

By the way, to the cat who doesn't believe trading K2 and possible Rogers and BE signals a rebuild, I would ask what team in the now gets rid of their best players.

They have very little talent. A portion of the best talent is fractured.

If they DON'T rebuild, they are nuts.



I think I am the cat you're referring too that doesn't KNOW if it is a complete rebuild just b/c you trade 4 players. IMO nobody on this team is worthy of being untouchable (save JT perhaps.) Only 1 of the 4 that I questioned had a good year last year. So to say they are OUR best players really isn't saying much. Aside from Rogers you cannot honestly say that it would be hard to replace the PRODUCTION that K2, DA or BE brought to the field last year.

Please notice. When the Browns were good (2007) those non-untouchables were Pro Bowlers. When they had bad years, the Browns stunk. So I think they are pretty important. When the goal is to be good.

The question becomes when are the going to be good again (realistically) and how are they going to get all of the pieces parts to get better? BE is most likely gone after this year anyway (I don't think he'll resign here), either DA or BQ is going to have to become the leader this year (pick ONE and trade the other) and if Rogers can be made happy then no, you don't trade him. But if you get the feeling that Big Baby is going to be your NT, then yea you trade him to.

[danwismar]

As a season ticketholder since they came back, and barely hanging on to those tickets, I am not sure how I feel about yet another reboot. On one hand I can see where it is needed, but on the other I find it extremely disappointing we are letting our top players go (even if some are problem childs, talent outweighs everything to me). It would be one thing if we had immediate options to replace the guys, or there was no way they were coming back because they were FA bound and wanted to jet....man, with my season ticket deadline coming up on April 1st this doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

This new regime has a lot to prove, at least to me. They get no mulligans and free passes or benefit of the doubt anymore. That may be unfair, but after three failed previous regimes, I have grown small on patience.

Well said, Tony. (and the guy from Sec. 171 too)

I like the trade (because Winslow is going to have an abbreviated career, and because we need picks) but...

"small on patience" says it all for me too (STH since '88). One of the reasons we can't get warm and fuzzy is because we have no confidence the draft choices will be used competently. The guys in Sec 129 joke each Christmas about getting the capital "L" tattooed on our foreheads in the offseason....which always feels appropriate about the time you're writing the check.

I get a pre-recorded taped voicemail at my house from Coach Mangini, about a week before the annual ticket invoice hit my mailbox. Never did listen to it, so fed up am I by years of this kind of meaningless, symbolic bullshit accompanied by gross incompetence on the field. We're all from Missouri now.

[Chris]

To me, Winslow is the first domino.

I expect Edwards, Rogers and DA all to be either traded or released now. This is a clear signal to me that we are in rebuild mode.

As a season ticketholder since they came back, and barely hanging on to those tickets, I am not sure how I feel about yet another reboot. On one hand I can see where it is needed, but on the other I find it extremely disappointing we are letting our top players go (even if some are problem childs, talent outweighs everything to me). It would be one thing if we had immediate options to replace the guys, or there was no way they were coming back because they were FA bound and wanted to jet....man, with my season ticket deadline coming up on April 1st this doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

This new regime has a lot to prove, at least to me. They get no mulligans and free passes or benefit of the doubt anymore. That may be unfair, but after three failed previous regimes, I have grown small on patience.

DA is almost surely gone, but Rogers isn't going anywhere (I doubt) and Edwards will probably be around too.