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Stoudemire to the Cavs?

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Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Prosecutor » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:39 pm

Erik Cassano had this comment on Amare Stoudemire in his recent "Firing the Wally Bullet" column:

Amare Stoudemire, Phoenix Suns

2008-09: 21.2 PPG, 8.1 RPG

Upside: Stoudemire is a flat-out lethal scorer with an array of moves to free himself for shots. As a big man, he doesn't really have a traditional low-post game, but when you can fill the bucket the way Stoudemire does, who cares? If an opposing defense has to decide whether to guard LeBron or Stoudemire, someone is getting dunked on, early and often.

Downside: If Ferry and Brown are the staunch disciples of Gregg Popovich defensive basketball that we think they are, Stoudemire could be a poor match for the Cavs. He has never developed himself as a defender, and when he tries to dig in his heels, he usually ends up committing fouls. Some of that might be due to spending a good portion of his young career playing for offensive guru Mike D'Antoni. Brown could reform Stoudemire into a good defender, but it might take some time.

A more pressing issue is the fact that Stoudemire wants to be the focus of the offense in Phoenix. That sentiment probably won't disappear if he gets traded, even to LeBron's team. As with Vince Carter, Stoudemire's touches are going to have to come at the expense of other players, which could create tension. Stoudemire is a top-1o player in the NBA, but he really can't influence a game without the ball in his hands.

But this might all be a moot point. There have been media rumblings that the Suns might be on the verge of blowing up their roster and rebuilding, but it seems far-fetched to think they'd part with Stoudemire on such short notice, unless GM Steve Kerr was bowled over by a trade proposal.
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Well, those "media rumblings" are now more than just rumblings. ESPN had a piece on tonight where they reported the Suns are open to trading Stoudemire "if the price is right."

Questions:

How much better does AS make the Cavs? Does his value as a scorer offset his reported disinterest inplaying defense? Is he a good fit? Is he willing to blend his talent into the rest of the team by playing better defense and taking fewer shots?

What would it take to get him? Would Wally's expiring contract be enough to get one of the NBA's 10 best players? Would we have to throw in somebody like Varajao or Sasha?

Answers:

I don't know how much better he makes the Cavs and whether he would disrupt the chemistry they have now, but seeing AS in the starting lineup in place of Ben Wallace would make me very happy. Any team attempting to double LeBron would pay dearly when he hits Amare cutting to the hole. I don't see how any team stops an offense consisting of Mo, West, LeBron, AS, and Z. That's five guys who can fill it up. You've got outside shooting, penetrators, size, quickness, and sick offensive rebounding if anybody misses. They may not need to play any D.

What would it take to get him? I'm thinking Wally of course, followed by Hickson and Sasha. We're getting a power forward which makes Hickson expendable, and he's a good fit for a team looking to start over with youth. We also have four guards in Mo, West, Boobie, and Sasha, so I'm thinking Sasha since he's played well as a starter while Boobie has struggled this year.

I have no idea how to make the salaries work out, but I'm thinking Wally, Hickson, and Sasha would be a fair trade strictly from a player standpoint. Wally's expiring contract would allow them to sign a major talent next season to go along with Hickson and Sasha.

Anybody have an idea of how to make this work, assuming the Cavs want to do it?
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby CharacterIV » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:45 pm

Stoudemire here is a championship. No lie. Stoudemire here leads to the rest of the league filing Tampering charges against us n' Phoenix. It also will never happen. We don't have the artillery to pull such a deal. Phoenix will want at least 1 young, promising (but established) player in addition to cap relief and draft picks, and Hickson just isn't that guy and our draft picks will likely stink this year and next.

Chemistry, schmemistry. Stoudemire here is a championship just because our guys will be that much bigger, stronger and faster than everybody else. That's the thing with chemistry: when everything is equal, it wins you the game. But when your two best guys are just that much bigger, stronger and faster than the other team's, chemistry doesn't add up to a lot.

Mike Brown could get Amar'e to play some D. Ben Wallace could, too. If he was comfortable tutoring the guy who took his job. LeBron would feed him the ball all day and night. So would Mo. I think everybody would be too damn excited about the raw talent on the team to let petty bickering about this or that get in the way of a raucous romp through the playoffs.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:45 pm

AS is 10 times the player Ben Wallace is, however Ben serves a very distinct purpose on this team and with his role being very defined he can show up everyday knowing his role and fulfill it with no problems. Ben doesn't need the ball to be effective and impact this team as stated already by you AS does. So that IMO is the key part of all this. We would have to dissect the finer points of the impact of AS without the ball b/c he isn't going to get it like he does or did in Phoenix so therefore his impact will not be as significant as it was there (at least on offense).

So what is more important to the success of this team a solid individual and team defender that you can count on fulfilling his role or the possibility of an offensive player like AS and the hope that he can fulfill some sort of role that he gets fitted with?
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby jordan kramer » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:45 pm

this is stupid it ain't gonna happen. we would have to give up a whole lot and why would we do that? we have the best record in the National Basketball Association, i wanna just get healthy and not really mess with what we have now. unless they want to give us Amare for Lorenzen Wright im not answering their phone calls. we are 39-9 i don't think we should be doin anything to mess with this
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:51 pm

No, i don't want him here! He's mad at the new Defensive coach in Phoenix why would we put him under Mike Brown???? Won't work
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:53 pm

Has it been three months since Al Harrington was traded? Or maybe they can get David Lee and the trainwreck otherwise known as Eddy Curry.

If you want Amare to come here, you'll have to find someway to keep him, Ben, and Andy happy.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby CharacterIV » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:02 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Has it been three months since Al Harrington was traded? Or maybe they can get David Lee and the trainwreck otherwise known as Eddy Curry.

If you want Amare to come here, you'll have to find someway to keep him, Ben, and Andy happy.


I'm inclined to think Andy would have to be packaged in the deal to get Amar'e. He'd be an add-on paired with a junk contract Phoenix doesn't want on their roster. He's the closest thing we have to a young, established, "but still might have room to grow" player that we have not named LeBron or Mo. Or Boobie, but then again, as it has been pointed out, Boobie is LeBron's lil' buddy, and just about as untouchable in a trade sense as the King himself. Then again, Phoenix already has their Andy-clone in the younger Lopez bro, so they might not be interested in him. Delonte's proven he's got room to grow, but only as an undersized, gutsy SG rather than a PG who can run the team. Doesn't seem like he'd be great trade material. The Suns will want a player in the Millsap or Kevin Martin line: young, but showing that he can be an NBA front-liner and on an affordable contract. Like Al Jefferson was in the KG deal. The kind of guy GM's hate to trade, but do for a superstar. Hickson's still too unproven to fit that category.

To continue the comparison to the KG trade, Steve Kerr would have to have fonder memories of his time as a player in Cleveland than McHale did of his time in Boston, and I just don't think that's the case.

Edit: Actually, Phoenix doesn't have a junk contract on their roster, unless you count Shaq because he's making 21 million. The only other guys they have above 2 mil are J-Rich, Nash and Barbosa. Not exactly trade-filler material.
Last edited by CharacterIV on Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby reppination7 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:07 pm

once we get amare, lets trade him for bosh lol
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:12 pm

CharacterIV wrote:I'm inclined to think Andy would have to be packaged in the deal to get Amar'e. He'd be an add-on paired with a junk contract Phoenix doesn't want on their roster.


Andy's not going anywhere, not when he's the only legitimate backup to Z we have on the roster. And the only thing left close to a junk salary on Phoenix's roster is Leandro Barbosa. I don't think him and Amare go for Andy, Wally, and filler.

The more I read, the more I don't think it'll be Amare. Ben's a legitimate enforcer and team leader, Z isn't going anywhere, and Andy and JJ are excellent backups and heirs apparent. No room there. Maybe Joe Smiff if you really want that veteran going into the postseason.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:21 pm

I still don't want him, but Brian Windhorst reported if he came Cheep they might trade for him. And remember wally will get a buyout and be back in a month...


The bulls will probably end up getting Stoudemire though...
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:45 pm

This is my list of big man in order of who's more valuable to this team, If we can pull a wally straight up trade without giving up JJ, (JJ only for Bosh though).

1) Bosh
2) Lee
2) Camby
3) Amare
4) Miller
6) Wilcox
5) Chandler
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Prosecutor » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:13 pm

The reason I didn't include Andy in the deal is his contract is up at the end of the year and Phoenix might lose him. I didn't include draft picks because we'll be drafting very low the next few years if all goes as planned.

It would be Hickson, Sasha, and whoever they can sign with the $13 million next year in exchange for Stoudemire. The question is - Who can they sign with the $13 million?

Also, if we lose Andy after this season we'll need a replacement. If we deal for Stoudemire - there's your replacement.

The other question is whether the Suns will get a better offer than Hickson, Sasha, and Wally's expiring contract. If not, the question is whether they do the deal or just try to build around Stoudemire. But ESPN made it sound like they really want to move him as long as they don't get ripped off.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:23 pm

drewd wrote:This is my list of big man in order of who's more valuable to this team, If we can pull a wally straight up trade without giving up JJ, (JJ only for Bosh though).

1) Bosh
2) Lee
2) Camby
3) Amare
4) Miller
6) Wilcox
5) Chandler


Realistically how could we trade for Lee, are the Knicks dumb enough to give us one of their best players to strengthen our team thus increasing the odds of LBJ staying? They arent that naive are they? Or are we that confident :bag:
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:24 pm

Prosecutor wrote:The reason I didn't include Andy in the deal is his contract is up at the end of the year and Phoenix might lose him. I didn't include draft picks because we'll be drafting very low the next few years if all goes as planned.

It would be Hickson, Sasha, and whoever they can sign with the $13 million next year in exchange for Stoudemire. The question is - Who can they sign with the $13 million?

Also, if we lose Andy after this season we'll need a replacement. If we deal for Stoudemire - there's your replacement.

The other question is whether the Suns will get a better offer than Hickson, Sasha, and Wally's expiring contract. If not, the question is whether they do the deal or just try to build around Stoudemire. But ESPN made it sound like they really want to move him as long as they don't get ripped off.


If we give up JJ forget it, only way we give JJ up is for Bosh...
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:58 am

Lee is a possibility mainly because the Knicks do not really wish to re-sign him due to cap room down the line. The problem is that they might want Hickson in any deal.

If Lee were available for an ending deal and a future first rounder then I'd be interested. Maybe even two future first rounders since they'd have to be nonconsecutive - 2010 and 2012?

Wilcox is likely attainable if we take Nick Collison of their hands. Wouldn't mind adding Wilkins for the bench if I do that too.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Chris » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:21 am

If anyone cares, Chris Broussard reports Chris Bosh wants to play wherever LBJ is playing.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Triple-S » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:40 am

Chris wrote:If anyone cares, Chris Broussard reports Chris Bosh wants to play wherever LBJ is playing.


Link?
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby ProgRocker » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:26 am

If it's a choice between Bosh and Amare I'd want Bosh because he looks hungry and doesn't have the lingering question around his knee that Amare does.

Someone up this string glibly mentioned trading for Amare in order to get Bosh ... but why might that be glib? If Bosh won't stay in Toronto, Amare wants a place where he'd be The Man (not Cleveland but Toronto), and Ferry would only pull the trigger on a trade that would be a blockbuster and not screw the Cavs out of their position in 2010 (and potentially improve their position in 2010), maybe a three-way deal with the Cavs as the fulcrum might not be that crazy.

Hell, who thought Larry Hughes or Ben Wallace even could be traded at this time last year?
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:32 pm

Some VC speculation


The Nets are listening to offers for Vince Carter and his remaining $33 million contract, according to the Newark Star-Ledger.
The Nets have reportedly talked to San Antonio, Cleveland, Chicago and Toronto. Everything is preliminary and speculative at this point, so don't get your hopes up.


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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Chris » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:30 pm

Triple-S wrote:
Chris wrote:If anyone cares, Chris Broussard reports Chris Bosh wants to play wherever LBJ is playing.


Link?


I can't. It was on ESPN First Take friday morning.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby buckeye319 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:44 pm

Chris wrote:
Triple-S wrote:
Chris wrote:If anyone cares, Chris Broussard reports Chris Bosh wants to play wherever LBJ is playing.


Link?


I can't. It was on ESPN First Take friday morning.


This has been the rumor basically ever since the Olympics. W&G said he's talk to good sources that say the two have talked seriously about playing together. I don't know how reliable W&G is, but everyone seems to think he's legit. I trust Broussard as well. Bosh is a pretty smart dude, he knows how many titles he could win with James.

BTW, I bet Amare goes to Miami, it makes too much sense.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Chris » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:45 pm

buckeye319 wrote:
Chris wrote:
Triple-S wrote:
Chris wrote:If anyone cares, Chris Broussard reports Chris Bosh wants to play wherever LBJ is playing.


Link?


I can't. It was on ESPN First Take friday morning.


This has been the rumor basically ever since the Olympics. W&G said he's talk to good sources that say the two have talked seriously about playing together. I don't know how reliable W&G is, but everyone seems to think he's legit. I trust Broussard as well. Bosh is a pretty smart dude, he knows how many titles he could win with James.

BTW, I bet Amare goes to Miami, it makes too much sense.


Agreed. And believe me, W&G is legit. He has been proven right countless times.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:37 pm

buckeye319 wrote:
This has been the rumor basically ever since the Olympics. W&G said he's talk to good sources that say the two have talked seriously about playing together. I don't know how reliable W&G is, but everyone seems to think he's legit. I trust Broussard as well. Bosh is a pretty smart dude, he knows how many titles he could win with James.

BTW, I bet Amare goes to Miami, it makes too much sense.


Wine & Gold is as reliable as a board poster gets. He's more reliable than most of the paid "NBA insiders" for the major sports outlets.

Toronto is sitting near the bottom of the Eastern Conference. If Bosh puts up a stink maybe they consider trading him. An ending deal would be attractive in that case because they could then turnaround and go after Carlos Boozer or someone else this offseason. Maybe they'd be interested in us helping them clear up that Jermaine O'Neal deal a bit early too.

And doing so would increase their chances in the lottery.

How's about our 2009 and 2011 first rounders, Wally World, Ben Wallace, and Hickson for Chris Bosh and Jermaine O'Neal. That'd clear up $25 million or so, give them a potential PF for the future, and two first rounders.

If that deal is available for Bosh would you do it?
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby buckeye319 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:45 pm

Mr. MacPhisto wrote:
buckeye319 wrote:
This has been the rumor basically ever since the Olympics. W&G said he's talk to good sources that say the two have talked seriously about playing together. I don't know how reliable W&G is, but everyone seems to think he's legit. I trust Broussard as well. Bosh is a pretty smart dude, he knows how many titles he could win with James.

BTW, I bet Amare goes to Miami, it makes too much sense.


Wine & Gold is as reliable as a board poster gets. He's more reliable than most of the paid "NBA insiders" for the major sports outlets.

Toronto is sitting near the bottom of the Eastern Conference. If Bosh puts up a stink maybe they consider trading him. An ending deal would be attractive in that case because they could then turnaround and go after Carlos Boozer or someone else this offseason. Maybe they'd be interested in us helping them clear up that Jermaine O'Neal deal a bit early too.

And doing so would increase their chances in the lottery.

How's about our 2009 and 2011 first rounders, Wally World, Ben Wallace, and Hickson for Chris Bosh and Jermaine O'Neal. That'd clear up $25 million or so, give them a potential PF for the future, and two first rounders.

If that deal is available for Bosh would you do it?


I guess I'd probably pull the trigger on something like that, simply because it would unite Bosh and LeBron and it seems like thats something both of them would really like. It would almost guarantee LeBron stays in Cleveland.

On the other hand, you have to love the way this team is playing right now. Messing with the chemistry of your team when you're one of three or four teams who can legitimately win the title is really dangerous IMO. And I'm not a cap expert, but having LeBron, Bosh, JO, Z, Mo, etc can't be good.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:59 pm

buckeye319 wrote:I guess I'd probably pull the trigger on something like that, simply because it would unite Bosh and LeBron and it seems like thats something both of them would really like. It would almost guarantee LeBron stays in Cleveland.

On the other hand, you have to love the way this team is playing right now. Messing with the chemistry of your team when you're one of three or four teams who can legitimately win the title is really dangerous IMO. And I'm not a cap expert, but having LeBron, Bosh, JO, Z, Mo, etc can't be good.


O'Neal comes off the cap after next season. Trading for him now would just reduce the obligation for the Raptors. Hickson is very cheap. Wally would allow them to eliminate Bosh's salary. O'Neal is making $9M more than Wallace next season.

That'd give the Raptors cap room.

Or the Cavs could try to pull off a three way that would land Stoudemire in Toronto, Bosh in Cleveland, and a package of picks and ending salaries for Phoenix.

I'd prefer to find a way to keep Hickson, give up the cap relief, and give up the first rounders. I could live without two first rounders if Bosh is the return and Bosh could be adamant about going to Cleveland. If Toronto thinks he'd be willing to sign below market to play here ($12M or so) after next season then why not get something for him? It's not uncommon in the NBA to see guys sign for less to play for a ring. For Bosh he could sign a three year deal and Cleveland could max him out after three seasons before he even hits 30.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Chris » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:07 pm

Chemistry, schemistry, as someone else stated. If you can get a guy of Bosh's caliber in here you do it. Amare, I'm not so sure about simply because he is alreayd known to whine and moan when he has to do something other than score.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby daddywags » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:53 pm

I'd do whatever to get Bosh but I don't see a viable deal between those two teams. Toronto's going to need to get something more than cap relief and draft picks for Bosh for it to make sense. I could be wrong, but I don't think JJ Hickson bridges the gap. A three way that lands Amare in Toronto and Bosh in Cleveland makes more sense for Toronto but the same situation presents itself for Phoenix - to give up Amare they'll need to get back a package with at least one proven guy they can build around. Look at it this way: If Toronto makes Bosh available and Miami offers a package built around Beasley how do we counter that?
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:24 pm

daddywags wrote:I'd do whatever to get Bosh but I don't see a viable deal between those two teams. Toronto's going to need to get something more than cap relief and draft picks for Bosh for it to make sense. I could be wrong, but I don't think JJ Hickson bridges the gap. A three way that lands Amare in Toronto and Bosh in Cleveland makes more sense for Toronto but the same situation presents itself for Phoenix - to give up Amare they'll need to get back a package with at least one proven guy they can build around. Look at it this way: If Toronto makes Bosh available and Miami offers a package built around Beasley how do we counter that?


We can't counter that unless Bosh is adamant about going to Cleveland. Would Miami trade Beasley for a year and a half rental and the hope that maybe Bosh will be satisfied with Wade instead of LeBron?

The rumors now suggest that Phoenix is willing to part with Amare for cap relief and a package of draft picks or some young players. Losing Stoudemire will likely give Phoenix a higher draft pick and will also clear room under the cap.

Phoenix is also rumored to want to move Shaq and his salary. The Wally & Ben deal to Phoenix would clear up $21M for next year, allowing Phoenix to bid on players after this season. Remember that Kobe can opt out and many think he will. Not sure he'll go anywhere, but teams might want to take a shot. Boozer is likely to be available. Others are out there in a year where everyone is waiting for the LeBron sweepstakes. Some teams might be able to get a lot of bang for their buck this offseason, especially with a bad economy.

I don't think it very likely, though I'm sure Ferry will explore all options if he hears Toronto is willing to listen to offers on Bosh. Getting Bosh and LeBron to Cleveland effectively screws over the rest of the NBA though.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby daddywags » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:12 pm

Yep. I think adding Bosh, as unlikely as it is, has to be at the very top of Danny's wish (maybe dream) list. Never say never, I suppose; I'll keep my fingers crossed.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:08 pm

i heard ESPN Insider had this trade proposal posted...

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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Chris » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:50 pm

I gotta say, do people really think we're landing Amare Stoudemire? It's all Cavs fans seem to be talking about. I listen to call in radio shows and talk shows on TV and it's just guy after guy calling in with Amare Stoudemire trade ideas and how awesome it'd be. It's just a pipe dream. It will never happen, as much as we all wish it would (and on top of that, do we really want the guy?)
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby CharacterIV » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:03 pm

Chris wrote:I gotta say, do people really think we're landing Amare Stoudemire? It's all Cavs fans seem to be talking about. I listen to call in radio shows and talk shows on TV and it's just guy after guy calling in with Amare Stoudemire trade ideas and how awesome it'd be. It's just a pipe dream. It will never happen, as much as we all wish it would (and on top of that, do we really want the guy?)


Y'know, I went bananas upthread about the idea of Amar'e in Cleveland. It's just because he's such a freakish athlete, even with the microfracture surgery in his past. I had ruled out the idea of Wally's contract fetching a guy like him a long time ago, so with the talk of Phoenix dynamiting the roster, I went overboard. It doesn't seem like Amar'e would mesh with this team, and when this team has been at their best is when they have played as a team. LeBron vs. 5 has led us to losses and a few lucky, narrow wins. Moving the ball and all 5 guys on the floor making a 48 minute commitment to defense is what earned us 20+ point smashings of whatever hapless opponent wandered into the Q. It might just be too big of a shakeup to bring in a stat-hungry, defensively uninterested guy like Stoudemire, even if he is a freak. "LeBron and 4 guys waiting for a bus" = Cavs losses. "LeBron and Amar'e quarreling over the ball and 3 guys waiting for a bus" wouldn't be much better.

Although I cannot deny the thought of LeBron penetrating with Amar'e cutting to the hoop in synchrony would be awesome. How do you stop that without a foul? Only chance is if the pass goes awry.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:04 pm

Amare wants to be the #1 option on a team, he has stated as much.

Amare doesn't play defense.

This is getting brought up now in reaction to the LA game, in which we got abused defensively by their bigs. Amare wouldn't seem to fix that.

Of course, we also struggled to score for long stretches and got nothing in the paint. Amare would fix that.

I was going to post something about Suns players falling off the face of the Earth after leaving Phoenix and then point out Bell, Diaw, Richardson, and Marion as examples. But honestly, the first three have similar #s to what they put up in Zona and Marion was just getting old and you can see the decline even before he left. Now, even if my point was actually true it wouldn't necessarily apply to Amare, as he is a stud and not a kind of marginal starter like the others.

Honestly, even if we could bring in Amare I don't know. He is a rental, they aren't keeping him. They are giving up JJ to get him. I am not convinced he will fit in. But he is a finisher around the rim that we just don't have. I am not convinced we need more offense, but I have become increasingly concerned over the course of the last month that this is a team that relies on jump shots way too much. Who, besides LeBron, gets to the hoop? Z barely shows any post moves anymore. I've been riding the Ben Wallace-can't-dunk train for years. Andy gets some pick and roll buckets, but nothing consistent.

I have not seen enough out of JJ to know how good he can be, nor am I qualified to judge it. But I keep reading in chats on ESPN with Thorpe that he could be REALLY good. By 2010, I could envision him being the #2 guy and Mo being the #3. In fact, that is kind of what this team needs to happen barring a swap of Wally or Ben next year for that guy.

I am still riding the "don't let Wally's contract expire for nothing" express, as I view it as only 1 of 2 decent opportunities to improve the team in the near and mid term (this includes 2010 offseason; we aren't signing Bosh as a FA IMO). But do I give up JJ + Wally for Amare? Should be a no brainer, except for that whole defense thing. I have no doubt LeBron can get him enough looks to keep him happy; the only other guy that has to get shots is Mo. Delonte, Z, Gibson, Andy, and Ben don't need a bunch of looks. So... yeah, the defense thing. And they could always flip him next year if convinced he won't resign due to wanting to be the guy.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby StewieG » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:29 pm

aoxo1 wrote:Amare wants to be the #1 option on a team, he has stated as much.

Amare doesn't play defense.

This is getting brought up now in reaction to the LA game, in which we got abused defensively by their bigs. Amare wouldn't seem to fix that.

Of course, we also struggled to score for long stretches and got nothing in the paint. Amare would fix that.

I was going to post something about Suns players falling off the face of the Earth after leaving Phoenix and then point out Bell, Diaw, Richardson, and Marion as examples. But honestly, the first three have similar #s to what they put up in Zona and Marion was just getting old and you can see the decline even before he left. Now, even if my point was actually true it wouldn't necessarily apply to Amare, as he is a stud and not a kind of marginal starter like the others.

Honestly, even if we could bring in Amare I don't know. He is a rental, they aren't keeping him. They are giving up JJ to get him. I am not convinced he will fit in. But he is a finisher around the rim that we just don't have. I am not convinced we need more offense, but I have become increasingly concerned over the course of the last month that this is a team that relies on jump shots way too much. Who, besides LeBron, gets to the hoop? Z barely shows any post moves anymore. I've been riding the Ben Wallace-can't-dunk train for years. Andy gets some pick and roll buckets, but nothing consistent.

I have not seen enough out of JJ to know how good he can be, nor am I qualified to judge it. But I keep reading in chats on ESPN with Thorpe that he could be REALLY good. By 2010, I could envision him being the #2 guy and Mo being the #3. In fact, that is kind of what this team needs to happen barring a swap of Wally or Ben next year for that guy.

I am still riding the "don't let Wally's contract expire for nothing" express, as I view it as only 1 of 2 decent opportunities to improve the team in the near and mid term (this includes 2010 offseason; we aren't signing Bosh as a FA IMO). But do I give up JJ + Wally for Amare? Should be a no brainer, except for that whole defense thing. I have no doubt LeBron can get him enough looks to keep him happy; the only other guy that has to get shots is Mo. Delonte, Z, Gibson, Andy, and Ben don't need a bunch of looks. So... yeah, the defense thing. And they could always flip him next year if convinced he won't resign due to wanting to be the guy.


Excellent post.

On JJ...He can be very, very good. Nobody knows yet if he will be, but he's got the tools and the talent. It's all about work ethic at this point.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:29 pm

BAD KARMA IN VALLEY OF THE SUNS
Peter Vecsey 1:44am February 13, 2009 (New York Post)

PHOENIX - Before launching today's Scuds. I wish to apologize, sincerely, for anything embarrassing or illegal Selena Roberts may dig up from the past, and for anything I may get caught doing this weekend double-dating with Charles Barkley.

I read Abe Lincoln turned 200 yesterday. So, in other words, he was around when baseball was clean and the Knicks did more for their fans than just entertain them.

It's a shame the team had to shut down for the All-Star break when it's finishing games (six consecutive losses, allowing nearly 121 points per) like the Bushes closed out presidencies.

Timing is everything,

But let's table the Knicks for a few days. After all, there figures to be one or two more opportunities after the break to give Donnie Walsh, Mike D'Antoni, a vigilant clipboard brigade and a pack of players who can win it for both sides if they play long enough, constructive deep tissue massages.

Besides, today being Friday the 13th offers too much of an open net . . . even for me.

With the 58th All-Star Game being held in this city - the third one I'm covering here since switching full-time assignments from the ABA to the NBA in 1974 - there's a certain sense of symmetry. Probably because this is the last time this season the Valley of the Sun is going to be in the consciousness of the caring populace and its national TV tributaries.

What in the name of Bayard Forrest has happened to this once-proud franchise? Since Steve Nash re-enlisted for the 2004-05 season, the Stylistics have been among the league elite, competing for conference championships and enthralling the masses with flash and dash.

Dubious radical surgery over the last 12 months (and a week; Feb. 6, 2007) in addition to the dreadful business practice of selling and surrendering draft picks in order to unload salary and thus avoid the luxury tax, has ruined the mix, suctioned the good karma from every nook and cranny and transformed the Suns into just another group grope . . . with more divisive alteration on tap.

Entering league recess, the Shadows are 28-23; eight games off last season's pace when, rather than try to fix what was broken, the decision makers - Robert Sarver, Steve Kerr, D'Antoni, VP David Griffin and Nash - imploded the infrastructure. In a critically condemned transplant (well, by at least one anonymous columnist, anyway), vital organ Shawn Marion was replaced by Shaquille O'Neal.

When that extreme mutation was rejected by the leftover parts - failing to get past the Spurs in the first round - D'Antoni was first into the lifeboat. When Boris Diaw and Raja Bell fought fitting into Terry Porter's red-light offensive system, they were exchanged for Jason Richardson . . . and then the Shadows had no semblance of a lock-down defensive player.

Next, in all likelihood, as Sarver seeks financial relief, Amare Stoudemire will be traded before Thursday's deadline . . . for a voluptuous expiring contract, no doubt, and a promising youngster or two.

It says here, the Cavaliers, Lakers and Heat are the lone teams who should seriously consider obtaining Stoudemire's sub-standard services. Sunday's All-Star start is a gift from an adoring, oblivious public. He'd have no problem deferring to LeBron James, Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade because their areas of expertise don't conflict with his, and they're genuine franchise players . . . whereas he pretends to be.


Last I looked, Stoudemire hasn't exactly proved capable of carrying an affluent team to ultimate glory.

Judging by what the Cavs have to offer - as mentioned, expiring contracts and talented youngbloods - and Kerr's connection and affection for Danny Ferry - I'm guessing it'll be Kevin McHale-Danny Ainge revisited . . . unless L.A. makes Lamar Odom available.

Meanwhile, according to a Phoenix source, Porter will be replaced by Kerr, who recently completed a crash correspondence coaching course taught by McHale and Tony DiLeo.

Makes sense to me. I don't know if it's the philosophy or the Philistines, but it ain't working. Having last missed the playoffs since D'Antoni succeeded Frank Johnson 21 games into the '03-'04 season, the Shadows (with or without Stoudemire) are very much in danger of achieving lottery discredit.

"They're on the outside looking in," John McCain said, "Just like me strolling along Pennsylvania Avenue."

Ninth in the West, a game behind Utah, and already having lost 10 home games - one fewer than last season - who knows, it just might be time for Kerr to see what he can extract from the overhauled assembly.

Never a team with much depth, Phoenix has aged . . . and not gracefully. At 17.3 points and 8.9 rebounds, Shaq is either the team's first, second, third or fourth option, depending on O'Neal's demands and how much Stoudemire sulks. Nash offers sporadic brilliance: Sunday at Detroit, 21 assists, two turnovers; the previous three games were a combined 26 and 13.

Sadly, I'm fast running out of excuses to visit the Marriott Camelback Inn. Thankfully, I still have Turf Paradise's Cotton Fitzsimmons Mile to look forward to next Jaunary.

This just in from column contributor Frank Drucker: Named All-Star weekend's social director, Barkley is writing, directing and starring in a new play . . . A Street Corner Named Desire.


http://www.nypost.com/seven/02132009/sp ... tm?&page=2
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby StewieG » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:35 pm

The article is interesting, but Pete Vescey was Screamin' A, before it was cool to make shit up with absolutely no journalistic integrity. So it's possible he's reporting truth, I just don't believe a thing that comes out of his mouth.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:38 pm

ill believe it when I see it.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby papacass » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:07 pm

StewieG wrote:The article is interesting, but Pete Vescey was Screamin' A, before it was cool to make shit up with absolutely no journalistic integrity. So it's possible he's reporting truth, I just don't believe a thing that comes out of his mouth.


That's exactly what I was thinking. Peter Vecsey is Algonquin for "make shit up."

I just can't bring myself to trust any columnist in the New York media crucible. The competition for readers is so fierce, a great many of them will write just about anything to make waves and get noticed. It's an extremely-annoying byproduct of media oversaturation.

There aren't nearly enough angles for every sportswriter in New York to come up with something fresh for each story. So they either regurgitate the same pre-processed tripe or they make shit up. Or, in some cases, a golden egg falls from the sky and A-Rod admits to using steroids.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:20 pm

the owner of the Suns is in deep financial trouble with real estate and guess what the owner of the cavs does???? real estate!!!! Smell something fishy???? (plus it won't be against nba rules)

So a Wally, JJ, and 2 first rounders (+ some restate help from Gilbert) will do it for Amare...

I heard he's down a quarter of a billion in real estate
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby CharacterIV » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:34 pm

drewd wrote:the owner of the Suns is in deep financial trouble with real estate and guess what the owner of the cavs does???? real estate!!!! Smell something fishy???? (plus it won't be against nba rules)

So a Wally, JJ, and 2 first rounders (+ some restate help from Gilbert) will do it for Amare...

I heard he's down a quarter of a billion in real estate


Yeah, but this "outside the rules" financial thinking is one of the reasons I am afraid to losing LeBron to NYC. The move makes little basketball sense or financial sense in the value of a contract, but New York still has the big money movers and shakers, certainly when compared to Cleveland. A little "help" in various areas (I'm not talking about the mythic Nike bonus clause that we all know has expired, but stuff more under-the-table) from NYC's glitterati (many of whom I bet have luxury boxes for the Knicks) and LeBron could reap a huge net windfall in repositioning.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Chris » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:46 pm

Sorry, way too excited to read and see if anyone posted this, but some ESPN guy (Ric Boucher or something?) is apparently saying we are the front runners for this trade, and Wine and Gold made this post on RCF:

Just returned from lunch, and when I got back to my hotel room, I have had my cell charging while I was out, I got three calls from JJ and his agent. Apparently, they are getting wind of some things, and are calling to see if I've heard anything regarding him, and potential moves being discussed.

Obviously, being on the road, I'm out of the loop to an extent, but, obviously somethings been whirling around in the NBA circles regarding JJ ...

Really a tough situation for him to go through so early on in his 1st season, he's apparently very anxious over all that must be going on right now, as far as the rumor mill.

Did something break on ESPN as far as speculation ?

I can't go into too much detail as to who else called, but a close relative who also has a job in the NBA but not with the Cavs, called and has heard we're one of the top destinations for Amare, in that he's signaled that he would sign longterm with us if the opportunity presented itself.

Which leaves me mystified to say the least ... I didn't see this one on my radar at all ... I've just never really taken any of those rumors seriously at all. Didn't see us with the assets, or much desire due to certain issues that I'll go into if need be ...

But, obviously for a team that's been saying they are content to stay put, we certainly have a GM that is working alot of tradelines with multiple teams at the moment.

I feel like maybe I should change my travel itinerary, and instead of heading back to Cleveland, make a quick jaunt out to Phoenix ...lol.

/SBM
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:47 pm

CharacterIV wrote:
drewd wrote:the owner of the Suns is in deep financial trouble with real estate and guess what the owner of the cavs does???? real estate!!!! Smell something fishy???? (plus it won't be against nba rules)

So a Wally, JJ, and 2 first rounders (+ some restate help from Gilbert) will do it for Amare...

I heard he's down a quarter of a billion in real estate


Yeah, but this "outside the rules" financial thinking is one of the reasons I am afraid to losing LeBron to NYC. The move makes little basketball sense or financial sense in the value of a contract, but New York still has the big money movers and shakers, certainly when compared to Cleveland. A little "help" in various areas (I'm not talking about the mythic Nike bonus clause that we all know has expired, but stuff more under-the-table) from NYC's glitterati (many of whom I bet have luxury boxes for the Knicks) and LeBron could reap a huge net windfall in repositioning.


The why ny front office is, LBJ wont go there. He knows defense wins championships...
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby CharacterIV » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:54 pm

drewd wrote:
CharacterIV wrote:
drewd wrote:the owner of the Suns is in deep financial trouble with real estate and guess what the owner of the cavs does???? real estate!!!! Smell something fishy???? (plus it won't be against nba rules)

So a Wally, JJ, and 2 first rounders (+ some restate help from Gilbert) will do it for Amare...

I heard he's down a quarter of a billion in real estate


Yeah, but this "outside the rules" financial thinking is one of the reasons I am afraid to losing LeBron to NYC. The move makes little basketball sense or financial sense in the value of a contract, but New York still has the big money movers and shakers, certainly when compared to Cleveland. A little "help" in various areas (I'm not talking about the mythic Nike bonus clause that we all know has expired, but stuff more under-the-table) from NYC's glitterati (many of whom I bet have luxury boxes for the Knicks) and LeBron could reap a huge net windfall in repositioning.


The why ny front office is, LBJ wont go there. He knows defense wins championships...


Oh yeah, I agree, drewd. Just compare the coaches: Brown's San Antonio D pedigree vs. D'Antoni, Master of getting clubbed in the playoffs by teams that play D like San Antonio. Cavs have the better roster, the sidekick already in place (and possibly still developing; with all the love for how Mo's doing now, he's probably not reached the peak of his game) and guys like Z and Boobie, who LeBron has accepted as extended family. And the Bird Rights. Don't forget them.

Only the shadowy menace of NYC back-room deals still frightens me...
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby waborat » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:56 pm

What I'd like to see before next Thursday night:

1) A nice romantic Valentine's dinner with my wife

2) The stimulus bill fail again

3) Boobie selecting a new uniform number
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby StewieG » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:08 pm

Chris wrote:Sorry, way too excited to read and see if anyone posted this, but some ESPN guy (Ric Boucher or something?) is apparently saying we are the front runners for this trade, and Wine and Gold made this post on RCF:

Just returned from lunch, and when I got back to my hotel room, I have had my cell charging while I was out, I got three calls from JJ and his agent. Apparently, they are getting wind of some things, and are calling to see if I've heard anything regarding him, and potential moves being discussed.

Obviously, being on the road, I'm out of the loop to an extent, but, obviously somethings been whirling around in the NBA circles regarding JJ ...

Really a tough situation for him to go through so early on in his 1st season, he's apparently very anxious over all that must be going on right now, as far as the rumor mill.

Did something break on ESPN as far as speculation ?

I can't go into too much detail as to who else called, but a close relative who also has a job in the NBA but not with the Cavs, called and has heard we're one of the top destinations for Amare, in that he's signaled that he would sign longterm with us if the opportunity presented itself.

Which leaves me mystified to say the least ... I didn't see this one on my radar at all ... I've just never really taken any of those rumors seriously at all. Didn't see us with the assets, or much desire due to certain issues that I'll go into if need be ...

But, obviously for a team that's been saying they are content to stay put, we certainly have a GM that is working alot of tradelines with multiple teams at the moment.

I feel like maybe I should change my travel itinerary, and instead of heading back to Cleveland, make a quick jaunt out to Phoenix ...lol.

/SBM


As an update, W&G also has since posted that he's talked to people from the team, and here's where we're at in terms of negotiations:

We have had a LOT of exploratory talks with various teams, not just the Suns.

We've had talks about players on the Suns not named Shaq or Amare.

We have, in fact, had trade discussions with the Suns about Amare.

Apparently Bill's source was legit (not that we ever had reason to doubt him), as Amare has made it clear that he would like to join the Cavs, and would be open to an extension.

JJ's apparently very nervous about being traded. He's taking advice and not watching TV or surfing the internet, and is having someone monitor his calls.

From all of this, nothing is imminent. But the possibility just went from us speculating, to actual interest expressed from us and Amare, and presumably the Suns as well.

Ideally, if Wally is part of the deal, then the Suns buy him out and he comes back here in 30 days (the Antonio McDyess special).

This is the kind of buzz I saw last year the night before the trade deadline, when Windhorst (and later W&G) both let everyone in on the fact that the Cavs had some sort of big deal being worked on (the one that brought Smith, Wallace, West, and Wally here). Who knows if this will get done, but it does look like more of a possibility now than it ever did before. Truthfully, I never even thought we'd be in on the negotiations. And now here we are, the likely frontrunners...
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:13 pm

waborat wrote:What I'd like to see before next Thursday night:

1) A nice romantic Valentine's dinner with my wife

2) The stimulus bill fail again

3) Boobie selecting a new uniform number


boobie might get a hole new uniform, he's probably up there with JJ...
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby StewieG » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:20 pm

drewd wrote:
waborat wrote:What I'd like to see before next Thursday night:

1) A nice romantic Valentine's dinner with my wife

2) The stimulus bill fail again

3) Boobie selecting a new uniform number


boobie might get a hole new uniform, he's probably up there with JJ...


I don't think Boobie gets moved...
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby CharacterIV » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:20 pm

drewd wrote:
waborat wrote:What I'd like to see before next Thursday night:

1) A nice romantic Valentine's dinner with my wife

2) The stimulus bill fail again

3) Boobie selecting a new uniform number


boobie might get a hole new uniform, he's probably up there with JJ...


I'm inclined to disagree. As it has been so eloquently put, he's the Jimmy Olson to LeBron's Superman. And Mo is Robin. Even though that doesn't make sense. I love comparisons of basketball players to DC Comics characters.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby StewieG » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:42 pm

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3905040

If Paxson leaves the Bulls, does that make it more likely, or less likely that we're the team that gets Stoudamire?
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:44 pm

StewieG wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3905040

If Paxson leaves the Bulls, does that make it more likely, or less likely that we're the team that gets Stoudamire?


we'll know after the game tomorrow,
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