Cleveland Indians & MLB

by **Noodle** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:05 pm

I was reading a report on Joe Torre's New book about his time with the Yankees and I guess he skewers a few of his players as well as the front office in NY. On the subject of Carl Pavano he is quoted in the book as saying:

Torre wasn't so much critical of the oft-injured Pavano as revealing of the clubhouse feeling about him, saying, "The players all hated him. It was no secret."

I hope those feelings don't follow him to Cleveland.

by **Chris** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:32 pm

Look, if you're expecting anything out of Pavano, let's get real. And the second he becomes a problem I *GUARANTEE* you they cut him loose like a hooked fish. I am surprised Shapiro even signed him in the first place.

by **WiscTribeFan** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:52 pm

Chris wrote:Look, if you're expecting anything out of Pavano, let's get real. And the second he becomes a problem I *GUARANTEE* you they cut him loose like a hooked fish. I am surprised Shapiro even signed him in the first place.

The only person who can lose with Pavano is Pavano. He's a couple of years removed from a fat contract that he failed to live up to. If, and it's a big IF, he can come back and have a solid year, maybe win 12-15 games (a huge stretch), then he's got the chance for another decent contract next year. It's on him right now if he wants to further his career. The question is, can he stay healthy.

I don't worry about Pavano being a clubhouse cancer, I worry about him simply sucking. We actually need him to step up and show a semblance of his former self...

by **Commodore Perry** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:34 pm

This makes me pull for Pavano even more.

If he is a 15+ win guy for us, not only will that be a huge boost for our staff, the Yankees and their horrible fans will be LIVID.

Yeah its a longshot, but it'd be sweet.

by **fundamentals** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:04 pm

Commodore Perry wrote:This makes me pull for Pavano even more.

If he is a 15+ win guy for us, not only will that be a huge boost for our staff, the Yankees and their horrible fans will be LIVID.

Yeah its a longshot, but it'd be sweet.

Pavano worked hard to get back late last season, IIRC. I think the guy still has some good days ahead. NY is tough on anybody and he became an easy target. The guy stands to make some money in incentives by throwing. If that doesn't motivate him, then not sure what would.

by **jordan kramer** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:57 pm

like 5 years ago i thought Pavano was gonna be the next big thing. he was a beast for the Marlins. i remember thinking man why can't the Tribe get a young pitcher like that then he went to the Yanks and fell off the face off the Earth. i will be happy if he can come back and regain any of that stuff he had in Florida

by **papacass** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:17 pm

jordan kramer wrote:like 5 years ago i thought Pavano was gonna be the next big thing. he was a beast for the Marlins.

He was? The best two seasons of his career -- the only two in which he pitched more than 200 innings -- were 12-13, 4.30 for the Marlins in '03 and 18-8, 3.00 for the Marlins in '04. Next-best season was 8-4, 3.06 in 97 innings for the Expos in 2000.

There is no season other than '04 in which Pavano qualifies as anything in the same galaxy as a "beast." And if he was a beast based on one 18-win season, Cliff Lee must be the love child of Godzilla and King Kong.

by **Inspector Butters** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:51 am

He's got a chance to prove himself here, and his 2009 season as an INDIAN is the only thing I care about. After all, in pro sports it doesn't matter what you did last year, last week, or even yesterday.

What have you done for me lately?

And if he shits the bed, well the team covered their asses with a 1 year incentive contract.

by **jameseboy** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:16 am

200 innings and 12 and 13 would be gold...18 and 8 would be get your post season tickets...Pavano will either be good or hurt no in between...hurt it does not matter and good would be extremely good for this rotation

by **TitoFrancona** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:21 pm

jameseboy wrote:200 innings and 12 and 13 would be gold...18 and 8 would be get your post season tickets...Pavano will either be good or hurt no in between...hurt it does not matter and good would be extremely good for this rotation

For a team shooting for the playoffs, you would hope your #3 pitcher doesn't have a losing record. Gold? Maybe in terms of innings, but if his overall record is below .500, this team is going to have a serious problem winning the division.

by **Steve Buffum** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:32 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
jameseboy wrote:200 innings and 12 and 13 would be gold...18 and 8 would be get your post season tickets...Pavano will either be good or hurt no in between...hurt it does not matter and good would be extremely good for this rotation

For a team shooting for the playoffs, you would hope your #3 pitcher doesn't have a losing record. Gold? Maybe in terms of innings, but if his overall record is below .500, this team is going to have a serious problem winning the division.

In 2007, Paul Byrd had the third-most wins on the Tribe staff with 15.

Tom Mastny (!) had the 4th-most with 7.

Jake Westbrook, the 4th-best starter in terms of wins, was 6-9.

If Pavano pitches 200 innings, I'll be completely flabbered. But if he wins 12 games, that'd be pretty great. (FWIW, I don't consider Pavano our #3 starter.) You're right, a #3 starter on a playoff team certainly should have a winning record. But top-heavy rotations can certainly succeed.

by **bryannyc** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:51 pm

Based on Torre's account and the reactions to it, the Yankee clubhouse was roiled by petty bickering and personality politics driven by their two star infielders. It sound like the kind of place where a reporter could elicit a backstabbing quote about anyone if he or she desired.

What strikes me about Pavano is his fragility and commitment to physical conditioning. Lets hope the latter overcomes the former. Given his history, a 200 inning season seems a bit farfetched, but I'm hoping merely that he can toe the slab with league average results until Jake gets back. Comparing Pavano to Colon over the first couple months of the season should provide for some good Monday morning quarterbacking.

Website · by **Jennifer** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:18 pm

Here is some amplification about Pavan, Torre and the Yankee Clubhouse.

http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/2 ... n-between/

In related news about Torre's book:

In the wake of the information in Joe Torre's yet-to-be-released book, the Yankees are considering a "non-disparagement" clause in future player and managerial contracts to prevent similar situations in the future.
The clause would ensure that future books are "positive in tone" and "do not breach the sanctity of our clubhouse," an unnamed Yankees official told Newsday in its Thursday editions.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... &fext=.jsp

by **MTF** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:40 am

Was there ever a player with more incentive to play well? He needs a contract, sure, and that's usually enough. On top of that is his need to show the world he can still pitch, something any guy would feel after the last couple of years he's had to live through. Mostly though, he wants to pitch well against the Yankees. He must absolutely hate the Yankees. He'll want to pitch like no guy has ever wanted to pitch before. Thanks Joe.

by **fundamentals** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:13 am

MTF wrote: On top of that is his need to show the world he can still pitch, something any guy would feel after the last couple of years he's had to live through. Mostly though, he wants to pitch well against the Yankees. He must absolutely hate the Yankees. He'll want to pitch like no guy has ever wanted to pitch before. Thanks Joe.

That was the reason people in NY hated him. HE DIDN'T PITCH. He was always hurt and actually lied about one of his injuries. He stole paychecks from that team, plain and simple. I think he will be successful with the Indians for one reason and one reason only, to get paid after the season with a bigger contract. How can you hate a team that basically paid you $40 million to pitch about 1/8 of the time you were with the franchise?

by **hornet84** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:15 am

No hard feelings Joe ? Has an active manager ever come out with a tell all book like this before ? If I were a player for Torre, I would be looking over my shoulder at all times. I used to respect the guy, but this is pretty Bush League of Ol Joe. I am sure he feels like he was mistreated by the Yankees, but you don't air your dirty laundry while you are still managing IMO.

by **fundamentals** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:00 pm

Looks like Mr. Torre has made more than a few people upset, including David Wells, who calls him a "punk" :lmfao:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/b ... index.html

by cb » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:29 pm

Although some Yankees players such as Jeter and catcher Jorge Posada have said that they'd prefer to read the book before commenting on its contents, former Yankees pitcher Carl Pavano condemned Torre's decision to divulge details of clubhouse matters.

"I am extremely disappointed that someone I had a lot of respect for would make these type of comments in his upcoming book," Pavano said in a statement released to 1050 ESPN New York's Andrew Marchand through Pavano's agent, Tom O'Connell. "I wish nothing but the best for Joe Torre and my former Yankee teammates, but with that said it does explain why I haven't received any Christmas cards from Joe the last few years."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3869467

by **TitoFrancona** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:51 pm

cb wrote:Although some Yankees players such as Jeter and catcher Jorge Posada have said that they'd prefer to read the book before commenting on its contents, former Yankees pitcher Carl Pavano condemned Torre's decision to divulge details of clubhouse matters.

"I am extremely disappointed that someone I had a lot of respect for would make these type of comments in his upcoming book," Pavano said in a statement released to 1050 ESPN New York's Andrew Marchand through Pavano's agent, Tom O'Connell. "I wish nothing but the best for Joe Torre and my former Yankee teammates, but with that said it does explain why I haven't received any Christmas cards from Joe the last few years."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3869467

Nah, that's not the reason. Has Pavano not noticed the price of stamps these days?

Website · by **Jennifer** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:53 am

"I really don’t think there’s anything in the book at all that’d I’d apologize for. I feel badly if people are taking it the wrong way. I’m not going to say I’m insensitive to it,” Torre said Friday night.

“I think that’s what makes me who I am, because I have sensitivity. But I think I was very sensitive in writing the book.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=A ... &type=lgns

by **Mr. X** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:38 am

Torre's an ass. And we'll see what Pavano is made of this year. I can't see money being a huge factor for this guys since he's already banked a big contract. Hopefully sticking it to the Bankees and their fans will be enough for the guy.

by **TitoFrancona** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:23 pm

Mr. X wrote:Torre's an ass. And we'll see what Pavano is made of this year. I can't see money being a huge factor for this guys since he's already banked a big contract. Hopefully sticking it to the Bankees and their fans will be enough for the guy.

I'm neither a fan of Torre, nor a hater. I just respected him as a guy who was a very good ML player and a pretty good (not great) manager. So I don't personally think of him as an ass. Most of his players seemed to like him.

But if you're basing your opinion of Joe Torre being an ass because of his book, I would assume that means you've read it and not forming that opinion based on a few excerpts as Torre said out of 500 pages.

For one thing, I don't know enough about Pavano to say he's not a total jerk and I certainly wouldn't assume he's a great guy now just because he now wears an Indians' uniform. The uniform doesn't make the man. I'll reserve judgement on Pavano.

by **AGoodPerson** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:12 pm

Joe Torre is one of the great ambassadors of the game. This is way much ado about nothing. If a person gets disheveled by Torre, he probably needs to be. As for Pavano, I thought he pretty much was exonerated by the book if anything.

I look for a great year from the Indians. And if they don't have a great year, I want heads.

Website · by **Jennifer** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:58 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
Mr. X wrote:Torre's an ass. And we'll see what Pavano is made of this year. I can't see money being a huge factor for this guys since he's already banked a big contract. Hopefully sticking it to the Bankees and their fans will be enough for the guy.

I'm neither a fan of Torre, nor a hater. I just respected him as a guy who was a very good ML player and a pretty good (not great) manager. So I don't personally think of him as an ass. Most of his players seemed to like him.

But if you're basing your opinion of Joe Torre being an ass because of his book, I would assume that means you've read it and not forming that opinion based on a few excerpts as Torre said out of 500 pages.

For one thing, I don't know enough about Pavano to say he's not a total jerk and I certainly wouldn't assume he's a great guy now just because he now wears an Indians' uniform. The uniform doesn't make the man. I'll reserve judgement on Pavano.

I haven't read the 477 pages of the book either. I have, however, read the first twent-four pages and the material on Pavano and thus far quite disappointed.

Structurally, the book is neither a memrior nor an autobiography but an authorized biography of the Yankee Years with the full cooperation of the subject -- it is written in the third person. What differentiates it from a true authorized biography is Torre's name is on it and he almost certainly had total control over what was actually said.

The third person narrative allows the book to say how wonderful Torre is. For example, with respect to his handling the media:

He was informative without compromising his team. He was refreshingly honest.

This is then followed by three paragraphs of quotes by Torre about how he handled the media.

The book's structure also allows quotes from others in order to provide objective support for whatever point is being established such as Tim Raines being quoted that supports what the "third person" narrator and Torre have to say about Pavano. I wonder how much effort was made to find someone to defend Pavano.

I had hoped when I first put in my request to the library for the book (long before the pre-publication "highlights" emerged in the media" that Torre's book might be another Three Nights in August LaRussa's book that develps into managerial decisionmaking. Thus far, I have read the account of the 1996 World Series that tells us very little about the Series decisionmaking itself itself other than a visit to Cone on the mound to decide whether to remove Cone with the decision revolving around whether Cone could convince Torre he could get the side out. What we do get is when it looked like the Yankees might be swept a fear of the Boss and the players "by a superior team" that Torre boldly asserted the Yankees would win four in row.

I could be wrong having read only a few pages but I suspect the book will be much more of the same with large doses about Torre's relationships with others and about games themselves this is what happened and then this, etc.

With regards to Pavano Torre said he was worried even before Pavano was signed that he worried about whether Pavano had what it took to succeed in New York and he didn't. What did Torre do to try to help Pavano? Not much. All the blame goes to Pavano and none to Torre. If the Pavano saga had occurred in Cleveland many would have blamed Wedge and looked at his explanation as a way of escaping blame.

When I first picked the book up I immediately looked for a picture I was sure would be in there -- a picture from the "midge" game. Sure enough it was there captioned:

The Yankee playoff run in 2007 ended in a cloud of bugs on a warm September night in Cleveland. Torre says the biggest mistake he ever made as Yankee manager was not pulling his team from the field.

BTW -- Chapter 15 is titled "Attack of the Midges."

by **fundamentals** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:30 pm

Torre's memory must be a bit clouded by the midges as he termed it the biggest mistake he made as Yankees' manager.

Love
Jeff Weaver

Bottom line is that this book is being used to make money and that's a shame because I never thought Torre "rolled like that".

by **Commodore Perry** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:59 pm

Hoynes had this to say about Pavano:

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... der_2.html

So Pavano was injured most of the time in NY, but it sounds like why they hated him is that when he did pitch he didn't seem to want to. He didn't like the pressure of pitching in NYC. Good luck CC...

This makes me optimistic about the Pavano signing. Shapiro has stressed that Pavano is physically healthy and capable of pitching. He's going to have motivation to prove himself, and he's out from under the NY microscope. Maybe we'll get that "bulldog" back on the mound. Sure he won't be an ace, but he could be a very productive 4th starter.

Website · by **Jennifer** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:21 pm

Commodore Perry wrote:Hoynes had this to say about Pavano:

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... der_2.html

So Pavano was injured most of the time in NY, but it sounds like why they hated him is that when he did pitch he didn't seem to want to. He didn't like the pressure of pitching in NYC. Good luck CC...

This makes me optimistic about the Pavano signing. Shapiro has stressed that Pavano is physically healthy and capable of pitching. He's going to have motivation to prove himself, and he's out from under the NY microscope. Maybe we'll get that "bulldog" back on the mound. Sure he won't be an ace, but he could be a very productive 4th starter.

I purposely did not read Hoynes because I was in the process of finishing up a review of the book so if he mentions this I apologize.

Eventually during Pavano's stay with the Yankees players started calling the 15 day DL "The Pavano."

by **leadpipe** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:05 am

Whether or not Pavano is the biggest A-hole on the block, we probably don't have the authority to definitively say, however, what's clear is the guy is an unlikeable sort.

If you are unlikeable and always on the DL, therefore not helping the team, guys just aren't going to have anything good to say about you.

If he's healthy and pitches well, I'm sure he'll get along with just about everyone in the Tribe clubhouse.

Of course you can't expect either, so you're left with hope.

by **RobStad** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:03 pm

Pavano has two big reasons to be motivated this season, money and redemption. If he's healthy, and right now at least it appears he is, he should do all right for the Indians this season.

It's starting to get late in Pavano's career. If he doesn't produce this year, it will only become harder to convince a franchise in 2010 that he'll be ok.

I think this is a good signing by the Tribe - limited risk, potential for a nice upside.

by **cozmeesah** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:05 pm

The Yankee playoff run in 2007 ended in a cloud of bugs on a warm September night in Cleveland. Torre says the biggest mistake he ever made as Yankee manager was not pulling his team from the field.

I love how they always make it sound like the bugs weren't out there around the Tribe guys also. THEY had to deal with them too and didn't flail and wave around like a bunch of wussies. And hell, the Yankees themselves made it worse by spraying the bug spray all over. They were dumbasses who couldn't handle a few bugs. Professional athletes are supposed to be able to block out anything and focus. The Tribe guys were able to, so it stands to reason that the Yankees should have been able to handle it too.

Should have taken his team off the field MY EYE. You're just pissed that the lowly Cleveland team and their pesky midges made Joba the Great look silly.

Website · by **Jennifer** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:00 pm

cozmeesah wrote:
The Yankee playoff run in 2007 ended in a cloud of bugs on a warm September night in Cleveland. Torre says the biggest mistake he ever made as Yankee manager was not pulling his team from the field.

I love how they always make it sound like the bugs weren't out there around the Tribe guys also. THEY had to deal with them too and didn't flail and wave around like a bunch of wussies. And hell, the Yankees themselves made it worse by spraying the bug spray all over. They were dumbasses who couldn't handle a few bugs. Professional athletes are supposed to be able to block out anything and focus. The Tribe guys were able to, so it stands to reason that the Yankees should have been able to handle it too.

Should have taken his team off the field MY EYE. You're just pissed that the lowly Cleveland team and their pesky midges made Joba the Great look silly.

Instead of responding directly just let me say that within the next day or so a review of The Yankee Years will be appearing on a TCF Front Page on a computer near you. I believe the midges might have come-up in the review. :angel:

by **tribefan333** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:57 pm

cozmeesah wrote:
The Yankee playoff run in 2007 ended in a cloud of bugs on a warm September night in Cleveland. Torre says the biggest mistake he ever made as Yankee manager was not pulling his team from the field.

I love how they always make it sound like the bugs weren't out there around the Tribe guys also. THEY had to deal with them too and didn't flail and wave around like a bunch of wussies. And hell, the Yankees themselves made it worse by spraying the bug spray all over. They were dumbasses who couldn't handle a few bugs. Professional athletes are supposed to be able to block out anything and focus. The Tribe guys were able to, so it stands to reason that the Yankees should have been able to handle it too.

Should have taken his team off the field MY EYE. You're just pissed that the lowly Cleveland team and their pesky midges made Joba the Great look silly.

Ditto. That night was the night I became a fan of Carmona.

Yes, he probably should have pulled his team off the field - the Indians should have too. But the way they act and speak as if the Midges came and disappeared with the changing of innings is still, to this day, an absolute joke. One that I love, however.

+

=

Website · by **Jennifer** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:14 pm

tribefan333 wrote:Yes, he probably should have pulled his team off the field - the Indians should have too. But the way they act and speak as if the Midges came and disappeared with the changing of innings is still, to this day, an absolute joke. One that I love, however.

When you say "they" I'm not sure who you are talking about because it can't be Torre/Verducci. I rather suspect from what you said that you'll love what they said about Carmona and the Tribe in the book when they discuss "the perfect swarm."

by **tribefan333** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:17 pm

The "they" was simply directed towards several Yankee players, personnel and fans. Not necessarily the two you mentioned - I veered off onto my own trail for a second.

Sorry to dissolve your "gotcha!" moment, Katie. :cheers:

Website · by **Jennifer** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:28 pm

tribefan333 wrote:The "they" was simply directed towards several Yankee players, personnel and fans. Not necessarily the two you mentioned - I veered off onto my own trail for a second.

Sorry to dissolve your "gotcha!" moment, Katie.

In other words, the two were not "necessarily" excluded either. :heehee:

by **martyinnewyork** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:50 pm

Being at the midge game is one of the highlights of my sports-related life. Maybe even #1...

by **peeker643** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:28 am

martyinnewyork wrote:Being at the midge game is one of the highlights of my sports-related life. Maybe even #1...

Oddly enough, we were standing at the rail on the left field wall that night and were never bothered by a single bug.

Website · by **Jennifer** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:49 am

Peeker643 wrote:
martyinnewyork wrote:Being at the midge game is one of the highlights of my sports-related life. Maybe even #1...

Oddly enough, we were standing at the rail on the left field wall that night and were never bothered by a single bug.

Guess the bugs are smarter than they look. :woot:

by **fundamentals** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:37 am

Peeker643 wrote:
martyinnewyork wrote:Being at the midge game is one of the highlights of my sports-related life. Maybe even #1...

Oddly enough, we were standing at the rail on the left field wall that night and were never bothered by a single bug.

Were you wearing your camo pants again? :hide:

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