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If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

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If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Barons-Force » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:54 pm

Would we be a consistent playoff team by now? Or would we still suck because it's Cleveland and the fact that we wouldn't have the same type of talent he walked into with the Steelers? I know we can go back to any year from 99 on and ask a similar type question, but I think this year (04 draft) hits home more than the others.

And yeah yeah, I know they just brought in Garcia but even back then he was old, let's just play this should of could have game for shits and giggles.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby yogi » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:23 pm

He would've been killed in that motorcycle accident.

Since he wasnt't and is not a Brown, Fuck him.

End of thread.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Triple-S » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:06 pm

I think Ben is the product of a great ground game, a awesome beyound belief defense and the fact that the Steeler organization is pretty solid from top to bottom in getting him recievers and weapons to work with, he's able to look like a super star.

I don't mean to sound like a hater, but I think he's a tad bit overrated, the 22.1 point rating in the super bowl sort of proved that.

If he went to Cleveland in 2004, he would look below average and would have gotten killed with no offensive line. think Tim Couch pt. 2 but worse, and IMO, if Timmy did have a better offensive line and wasn't just thrown onto an expansion team, I think he would've been a better QB, Maybe even a Pro-Bowler or Playoff contending one.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:16 pm

Would we be a consistent playoff team by now? Or would we still suck because it's Cleveland and the fact that we wouldn't have the same type of talent he walked into with the Steelers? I know we can go back to any year from 99 on and ask a similar type question, but I think this year (04 draft) hits home more than the others.


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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:57 pm

Who cares.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby cutty » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:36 pm

Imagine if the Browns had taken Mcnabb in 99 and the Eagles took Couch! Odds are , Couch would still be playing and Mcnabb ould be sitting next to Akili Smith! The franchise is a joke.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby waz1313 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:14 pm

i cant believe we are even talking about ben on the browns, this is so bush league!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Barons-Force » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:16 pm

Bush league is the product that has been put on the field for ten seasons.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby hornet84 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:46 pm

alpalsucksunderwoodblows wrote:Bush league is the product that has been put on the field for ten seasons.


It is more like Pop Warner without the enthusiasm.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Lubber » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:53 pm

Triple-S wrote:I think Ben is the product of a great ground game, a awesome beyound belief defense and the fact that the Steeler organization is pretty solid from top to bottom in getting him recievers and weapons to work with, he's able to look like a super star.

I don't mean to sound like a hater, but I think he's a tad bit overrated, the 22.1 point rating in the super bowl sort of proved that.

If he went to Cleveland in 2004, he would look below average and would have gotten killed with no offensive line. think Tim Couch pt. 2 but worse, and IMO, if Timmy did have a better offensive line and wasn't just thrown onto an expansion team, I think he would've been a better QB, Maybe even a Pro-Bowler or Playoff contending one.


You are saying Ben is worse than Timmy? How come Couch never latched onto to another team if he was so good. if there ever was a guy that was overrated due the system, it was Couch at Kentucky.

That being said, Ben with the Browns probably does not equate to playoffs every year, but definitely better off than they are now. IMHO, the Browns have had more talent on their offense the last two years (definitely a better O-Line). Unfortunately, the Browns also have more prima donnas (read K2 and BE)......

Big Ben has several 4th Quarter comebacks to his credit, and those are usually not due to defense nor a running game.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby aoxo1 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:05 pm

lubber wrote:
Triple-S wrote:I think Ben is the product of a great ground game, a awesome beyound belief defense and the fact that the Steeler organization is pretty solid from top to bottom in getting him recievers and weapons to work with, he's able to look like a super star.

I don't mean to sound like a hater, but I think he's a tad bit overrated, the 22.1 point rating in the super bowl sort of proved that.

If he went to Cleveland in 2004, he would look below average and would have gotten killed with no offensive line. think Tim Couch pt. 2 but worse, and IMO, if Timmy did have a better offensive line and wasn't just thrown onto an expansion team, I think he would've been a better QB, Maybe even a Pro-Bowler or Playoff contending one.


You are saying Ben is worse than Timmy? How come Couch never latched onto to another team if he was so good. if there ever was a guy that was overrated due the system, it was Couch at Kentucky.

That being said, Ben with the Browns probably does not equate to playoffs every year, but definitely better off than they are now. IMHO, the Browns have had more talent on their offense the last two years (definitely a better O-Line). Unfortunately, the Browns also have more prima donnas (read K2 and BE)......

Big Ben has several 4th Quarter comebacks to his credit, and those are usually not due to defense nor a running game.


The reason is that Couch's body and arm were completely destroyed even before he left Cleveland.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:49 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
lubber wrote:
Triple-S wrote:I think Ben is the product of a great ground game, a awesome beyound belief defense and the fact that the Steeler organization is pretty solid from top to bottom in getting him recievers and weapons to work with, he's able to look like a super star.

I don't mean to sound like a hater, but I think he's a tad bit overrated, the 22.1 point rating in the super bowl sort of proved that.

If he went to Cleveland in 2004, he would look below average and would have gotten killed with no offensive line. think Tim Couch pt. 2 but worse, and IMO, if Timmy did have a better offensive line and wasn't just thrown onto an expansion team, I think he would've been a better QB, Maybe even a Pro-Bowler or Playoff contending one.


You are saying Ben is worse than Timmy? How come Couch never latched onto to another team if he was so good. if there ever was a guy that was overrated due the system, it was Couch at Kentucky.

That being said, Ben with the Browns probably does not equate to playoffs every year, but definitely better off than they are now. IMHO, the Browns have had more talent on their offense the last two years (definitely a better O-Line). Unfortunately, the Browns also have more prima donnas (read K2 and BE)......

Big Ben has several 4th Quarter comebacks to his credit, and those are usually not due to defense nor a running game.


The reason is that Couch's body and arm were completely destroyed even before he left Cleveland.


Couch was a product of Hal Mumme's playground offense, wasn't that swift, and most importantly, couldn't see the field.

I realize the team surrounding you has much to do with your success but....putting Tim Couch in Big Ben's league is beyond silly.

Look, I don't like the guy, I'm sick of the 9,000 sideline shots a game, but the guy makes plays, and more importantly, makes them when they count. He does mcuh more right at that position then wrong.

There have been guys thrust into similiar situations as Couch and gone on to play well in the league, and there are guys the have been put in excellent situations like Big Ben, and blown them.

I guess back to the point of the original post, the Tribe shoudn't have drafted Miller, and the Browns should have taken Big Ben in a slot no sane person woud've taken him. On to the Cavs thread, they'll be plenty of draft-second guesing ammo there.

It's 2009.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Spin » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:52 pm

Clevelanders would have never accepted him because he's a MAC quarterback. He would have led the league in sacks behind our semi-pro O lines, and shell shocked and broken, led out to pasture like countless qbs of the new Browns.

And everyone would say he sucked.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby jfiling » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:12 am

Spin wrote:Clevelanders would have never accepted him because he's a MAC quarterback. He would have led the league in sacks behind our semi-pro O lines, and shell shocked and broken, led out to pasture like countless qbs of the new Browns.

And everyone would say he sucked.

Is that some Charlie Frye inspired bitterness?

Anyway, here's how the Browns draft in 2004 should have went:

7: Jonathan Vilma
37: Bob Sanders
68: Chris Cooley
106: Nathan Vasher
141: Michael Turner
173: Andy Lee
208: Patrick Crayton

super bowl.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Toxicadam » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:47 am

Here's the first round picks for the Steelers:

2000: Wide receiver Plaxico Burress, No. 8 overall: Burress developed into a solid threat with the Steelers, but his character flaws ultimately led to the team allowing him to leave via free agency after the 2004 season. Despite that fact, he was still a pick that went into the team’s win column.

2001: Nose tackle Casey Hampton, No. 19 overall: Despite battling weight issues of late, Hampton is a four-time Pro Bowler and has been the anchor of the defensive line since arriving in the NFL.

2002: Guard Kendall Simmons, No. 30 overall: He has suffered some injury issues along the way, but has been a starter for every game he’s ever been healthy. The Steelers basically were able to plug him in and watch him develop into a solid player.

2003: Safety Troy Polamalu, No. 16 overall pick: One of the best safeties in the NFL and a consistent game-changing talent. His career looks to be on the road to the Hall of Fame.

2004: Quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, No. 11 overall: A franchise-making selection at a position that can often destroy teams. Roethlisberger is the youngest starting quarterback to win a Super Bowl, and is playing in his second Super Bowl in only his fifth year.

2005: Tight end Heath Miller, No. 30 overall: One of the league’s best young tight ends. He’s a complete player, too – a constant pass-catching threat and a major contributor in the running game.

2006: Santonio Holmes, No. 25 overall: While he hasn’t quite ascended to a Pro Bowl level, he’s arguably the Steelers best deep threat and helps keep defenses honest against the running game. He has game-changing abilities in the return game as well.

2007: Linebacker Lawrence Timmons, No. 15 overall: While he hasn’t cracked the starting lineup just yet, that has more to do with the players in front of him than it does with Timmons’ abilities. Yet he’s still turned into a major contributor (65 tackles and five sacks this season) and is expected to be one of Pittsburgh’s next great middle linebackers.

2008: Running back Rashard Mendenhall, No. 23 overall: Showed some flashes of brilliance early, but had his season cut short with an early injury. He’s expected to factor big into the running game next season.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Hydra Melee » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:23 am

So, Toxic, you also saw that article on Yahoo?

I hate these discussions. Almost any team can look back at any draft and imagine how things would be so much better if only they had chosen player x over y. Any team could win the Super Bowl every year if only they had foresight instead of hindsight.

"If we had drafted LT instead of Gerrard Warren, than we wouldn't have had to spend our next #1 on Will Green."

These discussions are just depressing.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Lubber » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:17 pm

Found this little nugget about a Pittsburgh reporter blasting the Steelers for picking Ike Taylor in the 4th round in 2003, and saying they paid too much for Troy P. Ike seems to have turned out OK

Even the best drafting team in NFL history cannot get away from idiots' opinions.

Their drafting is almost unreal when you come to think of it. Going back 20 years to 1989, they have only had 3 #1 choices who did not turn out to be starters for them or other teams for 3 or more years (Tim Worley '89, but they got Carnell Lake in round 2, Huey Richardson '91, Jamain Stephens '96)
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:10 pm

Big Ben's early success was due to circumstances, a perfect set of them for a young QB.

They had a lot of good things in place in which they could just ask him to do some simple things. Along the way he gained confidence and was able to do some things that he has natural skills for and his instincts were allowed to take over when need be.

As time goes on he has just evolved as the team has needed him to.

He isn't the best QB by any means, he has some interesting flaws, but he can be a great QB on any given drive and is better than any QB we have had in Cleveland since Bernie.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Guest » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:26 am

Right now, I'm wishing that Ben had been drafted by the Browns.

Because he'd be dead by now.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby dleising » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:29 am

Yeah it's possible we would have been better off. The bastard can't seem to get sacked, something the Brown's QB's can't seem to avoid. But I digress, and say at this point it is ridiculous to be talking about.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby jb » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:31 am

He' have died in that wreck.

That's us.

They're them.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:32 am

dleising wrote:Yeah it's possible we would have been better off. The bastard can't seem to get sacked, something the Brown's QB's can't seem to avoid. But I digress, and say at this point it is ridiculous to be talking about.


I will say this, the NFL needs to seriously evaluate roughing calls. When you have QBs who are monsters and impossible to take down like Ben and Tebow eventually you CANNOT handicap defensive players trying to sack them. If you slow down even a little bit coming at Ben as a defensive peep you are screwed, cripe half the time you are screwed even if you don't.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby jb » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:34 am

e0y2e3 wrote:
dleising wrote:Yeah it's possible we would have been better off. The bastard can't seem to get sacked, something the Brown's QB's can't seem to avoid. But I digress, and say at this point it is ridiculous to be talking about.


I will say this, the NFL needs to seriously evaluate roughing calls. When you have QBs who are monsters and impossible to take down like Ben and Tebow eventually you CANNOT handicap defensive players trying to sack them. If you slow down even a little bit coming at Ben as a defensive peep you are screwed, cripe half the time you are screwed even if you don't.


+ 1

They are bigger than the penalized DE's.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby reppination7 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:45 am

i like that he represents ohio, and i like tha MAC, my parents went to BGSU, so i like that someone from ohio can get some recognition, but other that that i really dont like the guy at all
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Bill the Butcher » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:55 am

I don't think drafting Ben would have changed much.

One QB change doesn't change the ugly complexion of our team over night. Ben would possibly be slightly better compared to the QBs we had in the past, but our team would probably look no different.

Again, stop "what if-ing." What's done is done. Worry about the present and the future. Yes, people... there is a future. That could be a great thing, a good thing, or a OMFG WTF thing.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Toxicadam » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:15 am

I made the analogy before, but we are the Kansas City Royals and the Steelers/Ravens are the Twins/Indians. They just have a culture and a management group that makes good moves overall.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:20 am

Toxicadam wrote:I made the analogy before, but we are the Kansas City Royals and the Steelers/Ravens are the Twins/Indians. They just have a culture and a management group that makes good moves overall.


Big Diff. is...Lerner has money to create a winner and in theory has the ability to compete with the Inbred...he just doesn't know how.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Toxicadam » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:26 am

Triple-S wrote:Big Diff. is...Lerner has money to create a winner and in theory has the ability to compete with the Inbred...he just doesn't know how.


That's why I used the Twins/Indians and KC. They all have about the same budgets, but the difference is the owners/management.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Spin » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:04 pm

Is that some Charlie Frye inspired bitterness?


If the shoe fits...

You know dammed well that was the biggest knock on him coming out of school before anyone saw one snap. It was the second biggest knock after he got pummeled into a walking corpse by this "team", like so many others before him.

Pretty ignorant sounding now, with three Super Bowl rings and the record for all time leader in completion %. Among active QB's from the conference.

It's not like being from a BCS school, like Oregon State, Miami, or Kentucky, guarantees they're top quality, right? What BCS school is Kurt Warner from?
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby c11058 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:06 pm

While we're on this topic, why did our knucklehead team of Butch and Garcia pass on Ed Reed in 2003 in favor of William Green?? Butch probably recruited Reed to Miami, he knew what kind of impact player he was.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Lubber » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:12 pm

c11058 wrote:While we're on this topic, why did our knucklehead team of Butch and Garcia pass on Ed Reed in 2003 in favor of William Green?? Butch probably recruited Reed to Miami, he knew what kind of impact player he was.


It was actually the 2002 draft, and Butch not only passed on Ed Reed, but also Clinton Portis (twice, although, once you picked Green, he was not going to get another RB in the 2nd round).
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby just another fool » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:17 pm

how many times could the browns have drafted tom brady in 2000? what's done is done.
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Re: If we took Big Ben #6 back in 2004...

Unread postby Lubber » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:19 pm

just another fool wrote:how many times could the browns have drafted tom brady in 2000? what's done is done.


I think the main point of the Butch Davis argument is that he recruited and coached Portis and Reed prior to coming to the Browns, so he knew first hand what kind of ballers they were.

Tom Brady is more of a diamond in the rough kind of pick.
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