Text Size

Cleveland Browns & The NFL

Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Talk Browns football and discuss the NFL here.

Moderators: peeker643, jb, swerb, pup

Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby gotribe31 » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:01 am

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft09/ ... id=3843992


Scale is 1-5, 1 being the best. I know not everyone has ESPN insider, so enjoy. They seem pretty high on him. I still want Curry, for the record.

Production: He appeared in 12 games recording 37 tackles including 4.5 for loss in 2005. Maualuga started 22 of the 26 games he appeared in recording a total of 157 tackles including 15.5 for losses in 2006 and 2007. In 2008 he played in 12 games, recording a total of 79 tackles including 2.5 for loss and intercepting two passes, including one he retuned for a touchdown against Ohio State in the season opener.
GRADE: 2

Ht./Wt./Speed: Displays an above-average combination of speed and size.
GRADE: 2

Durability: Durability is not a substantial concern at this point. He sustained a hip pointer that led to him seeing limited time against Notre Dame in 2007 and missed the 2008 Oregon game with a knee injury, but nothing that has anyone too worried.
GRADE: 2

Character: There have been off-the-field issues for Maualuga while at USC. He's dealt with them, but it's something scouts will check into.
GRADE: 4

PRACTICE NOTES
Monday (1/19/09): Monday's lighter session in shells was not the ideal setting for Maualuga, who shows good speed for his size, but is obviously not the most fluid athlete. His footwork looked great during position-specific drills but he appeared stiff in the hips when trying to match-up in man coverage. Maualuga was overaggressive at times. He overran the ball on one play during inside-run period and got caught out of a position on a misdirection run during team period. On the flipside, he displayed above-average closing burst and did a nice job of stepping up into the hole. All-in-all it was a solid all-around showing from one of the premier defensive talents in Mobile this week. Maualuga should shine when the intensity level is ratcheted up a couple of notches during full-pad practices the next two days.

Tuesday (1/20/09): Maualuga remains a man among boys at the Senior Bowl. His aggression, power and head-snapping take-on ability are very apparent, even under these circumstances where there is not an abundance of hitting. He is obviously at his best coming downhill and can be a freight train in that capacity, but he isn't as powerful or agile when moving in reverse. Being flanked by two exceptional outside linebackers at USC, Maualuga's ability to rush the passer off the edge was not always apparent but it stood out today. He obviously has the size to compete at the line of scrimmage and he displays a heavy bull rush to push the pocket. In addition, he showed a quick first step and the ability to blow past the blocker. It is far too early to consider him as a 3-4 outside linebacker prospect and he needs much more time to hone his pass rush, but it's something coaches and scouts can file away as yet another positive trait to consider in his overall evaluation.

Wednesday (1/21/09): There were only two negatives that we noticed today. The first is his lack of discipline at times. As previously noted, he will occasionally guess (rather than read his key and diagnose) and attack the line of scrimmage hoping to blow the play up before it has time to develop. The second is his limitations in coverage. Maualuga lost a step at one point and got tripped up on another occasion -- both times when working in man-coverage versus a running back out of the backfield, which is not a strength of his to begin with. Otherwise, it was a fine all-around performance from Maualuga on Wednesday. Maualuga was flying around the field and made plays from sideline-to-sideline versus the run. He displayed explosive power when filling gaps and outstanding closing burst in pursuit of ball carriers. Maualuga also continued to display his ability as a pass rusher on a couple occasions during Wednesday's practice. First, Maualuga absolutely embarrassed Clemson RB James Davis during one-on-one blitz pickup drills with the running backs. Maualuga used his speed to force Davis off-balance and then used a power move to throw Davis to the ground. Later on during pass-rush drills versus the offensive line, Maualuga used his straight-line speed and body control to quickly bend the edge versus Tennessee OT Ramon Foster.

Thursday (1/22/09): With the team practicing in helmets and shorts and contact at a minimum, today's session was not the ideal setting for this physical thumper. Still, he took advantage of the opportunity to showcase his overall range as well as his ability to hold up in zone coverage during the team portion of practice. On one play, Maualuga closed on a hitch route thrown to the opposite hash and the 254-pounder stuck out like a sore thumb because he was clearly moving at higher speed than everyone else on defense. He also looked right at home roaming the middle during seven-on-seven drills. Maualuga showed above-average awareness during the coverage drills, picking up short crossing routes and reacting quickly to any throws to the running back. All-in-all, Maualuga followed an underwhelming though certainly not disastrous, start to the week with two impressive practices.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves
-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts.
-----Lars
User avatar
gotribe31
 
Posts: 2494
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:38 pm
Location: Fairfax, VA
Favorite Player: Francisco Lindor
Least Favorite Player: Michigan

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby jb » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:10 am

Gotribe31 wrote:http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft09/insider/news/story?id=3843992


Scale is 1-5, 1 being the best. I know not everyone has ESPN insider, so enjoy. They seem pretty high on him. I still want Curry, for the record.

Production: He appeared in 12 games recording 37 tackles including 4.5 for loss in 2005. Maualuga started 22 of the 26 games he appeared in recording a total of 157 tackles including 15.5 for losses in 2006 and 2007. In 2008 he played in 12 games, recording a total of 79 tackles including 2.5 for loss and intercepting two passes, including one he retuned for a touchdown against Ohio State in the season opener.
GRADE: 2

Ht./Wt./Speed: Displays an above-average combination of speed and size.
GRADE: 2

Durability: Durability is not a substantial concern at this point. He sustained a hip pointer that led to him seeing limited time against Notre Dame in 2007 and missed the 2008 Oregon game with a knee injury, but nothing that has anyone too worried.
GRADE: 2

Character: There have been off-the-field issues for Maualuga while at USC. He's dealt with them, but it's something scouts will check into.
GRADE: 4

PRACTICE NOTES
Monday (1/19/09): Monday's lighter session in shells was not the ideal setting for Maualuga, who shows good speed for his size, but is obviously not the most fluid athlete. His footwork looked great during position-specific drills but he appeared stiff in the hips when trying to match-up in man coverage. Maualuga was overaggressive at times. He overran the ball on one play during inside-run period and got caught out of a position on a misdirection run during team period. On the flipside, he displayed above-average closing burst and did a nice job of stepping up into the hole. All-in-all it was a solid all-around showing from one of the premier defensive talents in Mobile this week. Maualuga should shine when the intensity level is ratcheted up a couple of notches during full-pad practices the next two days.

Tuesday (1/20/09): Maualuga remains a man among boys at the Senior Bowl. His aggression, power and head-snapping take-on ability are very apparent, even under these circumstances where there is not an abundance of hitting. He is obviously at his best coming downhill and can be a freight train in that capacity, but he isn't as powerful or agile when moving in reverse. Being flanked by two exceptional outside linebackers at USC, Maualuga's ability to rush the passer off the edge was not always apparent but it stood out today. He obviously has the size to compete at the line of scrimmage and he displays a heavy bull rush to push the pocket. In addition, he showed a quick first step and the ability to blow past the blocker. It is far too early to consider him as a 3-4 outside linebacker prospect and he needs much more time to hone his pass rush, but it's something coaches and scouts can file away as yet another positive trait to consider in his overall evaluation.

Wednesday (1/21/09): There were only two negatives that we noticed today. The first is his lack of discipline at times. As previously noted, he will occasionally guess (rather than read his key and diagnose) and attack the line of scrimmage hoping to blow the play up before it has time to develop. The second is his limitations in coverage. Maualuga lost a step at one point and got tripped up on another occasion -- both times when working in man-coverage versus a running back out of the backfield, which is not a strength of his to begin with. Otherwise, it was a fine all-around performance from Maualuga on Wednesday. Maualuga was flying around the field and made plays from sideline-to-sideline versus the run. He displayed explosive power when filling gaps and outstanding closing burst in pursuit of ball carriers. Maualuga also continued to display his ability as a pass rusher on a couple occasions during Wednesday's practice. First, Maualuga absolutely embarrassed Clemson RB James Davis during one-on-one blitz pickup drills with the running backs. Maualuga used his speed to force Davis off-balance and then used a power move to throw Davis to the ground. Later on during pass-rush drills versus the offensive line, Maualuga used his straight-line speed and body control to quickly bend the edge versus Tennessee OT Ramon Foster.

Thursday (1/22/09): With the team practicing in helmets and shorts and contact at a minimum, today's session was not the ideal setting for this physical thumper. Still, he took advantage of the opportunity to showcase his overall range as well as his ability to hold up in zone coverage during the team portion of practice. On one play, Maualuga closed on a hitch route thrown to the opposite hash and the 254-pounder stuck out like a sore thumb because he was clearly moving at higher speed than everyone else on defense. He also looked right at home roaming the middle during seven-on-seven drills. Maualuga showed above-average awareness during the coverage drills, picking up short crossing routes and reacting quickly to any throws to the running back. All-in-all, Maualuga followed an underwhelming though certainly not disastrous, start to the week with two impressive practices.


This report screams FOOTBALL PLAYER and not "athlete". That will allow him to be knitpicked to death.

This, of course, means he'll fall like a stone and we'll pass and he'll end up in Pittsburgh making our lives miserable for the next decade.

D'Quell can stay at home and claen up the mess, but if this isn't 100% what this D needs, I do not know what it:


His aggression, power and head-snapping take-on ability are very apparent, even under these circumstances where there is not an abundance of hitting. He is obviously at his best coming downhill and can be a freight train in that capacity, but he isn't as powerful or agile when moving in reverse. Being flanked by two exceptional outside linebackers at USC, Maualuga's ability to rush the passer off the edge was not always apparent but it stood out today. He obviously has the size to compete at the line of scrimmage and he displays a heavy bull rush to push the pocket. In addition, he showed a quick first step and the ability to blow past the blocker.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:11 am

I want him, I want him bad! (not in that way). I want a nasty bad ass MLB who isnt afraid and will try to rip peoples heads off ala the Murderer in Baltimore. I dont care if Kiper says he should go 20. He is a football player, take him at 5
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby bw » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:19 am

Watched him a tiny bit on NFL Network at the Senior Bowl practices.

Not impressed.


If the Browns burn a #5 on a LBer, I will lose what little bit is left of my mind.
User avatar
bw
 
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:14 am

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby gotribe31 » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:35 am

I knew JB would love that :)

If not an LB, who do you want to see picked?
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves
-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts.
-----Lars
User avatar
gotribe31
 
Posts: 2494
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:38 pm
Location: Fairfax, VA
Favorite Player: Francisco Lindor
Least Favorite Player: Michigan

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:42 am

bw wrote:Watched him a tiny bit on NFL Network at the Senior Bowl practices.

Not impressed.


If the Browns burn a #5 on a LBer, I will lose what little bit is left of my mind.


Tiny but huh? Hard to be impressed with football players after a tiny bit.

Let's take a skill guy at #5. That has worked out well.
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:47 am

bw wrote:Watched him a tiny bit on NFL Network at the Senior Bowl practices.

Not impressed.


If the Browns burn a #5 on a LBer, I will lose what little bit is left of my mind.


Not to pile on, but seriously? You watched Senior Bowl practices and decided you didnt want to take him? Lets look at how he actually plays the game instead of playing Todd McAssclown. Our pick at 5 needs to show up every game with a bad attitude and know how to play, not be a workout warrior at the Senior Bowl or combine.
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby travisfitzwater » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:52 am

"I’m not sure what had gotten into Rey Maualuga before today, but he sure came out firing. He ran, ripped, and out muscled, all running backs and tight ends in blitz drills. He was aggressive and really got to the dummy quarterback in a hurry. This once again flashed his serious potential as a blitzer with the way he dipped his shoulder and did a variety of other great moves to beat his man. In team drills, Rey looked much improved as well. Very aggressive and didn’t make many mistakes on the day. His teammate Brian Cushing has looked like the best linebacker in coverage this week, making smooth drops into his zones. Maryland linebacker Moise Fokou did a good job with form tacking in one-on-one drills. He stood out a little today overall. Darry Beckwith was absolutely buried by tight ends in blitz drills today. He was either engulfed or stonewalled or driven down the line of scrimmage out of the “play.” Ashlee Palmer caught my attention a couple times as well making plays in team drills."

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2009/sen ... south.html

Footballs Future has some nice analysis of all the players at their site, http://www.FootballsFuture.com/. I liked their analysis of Rey-Rey for Wednesday, but it wasn't as good for Rey on Tuesday at the Senior Bowl:

"The linebacking crew for the South team was headed by three USC linebackers. Of the three, Clay Matthews had the best day. He looked quick off the edge and displayed some nice pass rush moves to beat tight ends in a blitzing drill. After starting off with a great blitz, setting up an inside alley to the quarterback, Rey Maualuga’s day went downhill. He seemed always a step behind in pass coverage and was a fairly easy pickup as a blitzer on several occasions. Brian Cushing was somewhat forgettable, but made several nice plays in the team portion of practice. He was one of few all day to look comfortable dropping back into coverage."

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2009/sen ... south.html

Matthews is really sticking out, see above.
Travis Fitzwater
User avatar
travisfitzwater
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:38 am
Location: Holts Summit, MO
Favorite Player: LeBron
Least Favorite Player: Donte Stallworthless

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:58 am

BW who would you rather have. Rey Rey who showed all year he was a football player or someone like this:

PETTINE HINTS THAT GHOLSTON WAS A REACH
Posted by Mike Florio on January 23, 2009, 6:47 a.m. EST

In his introductory press conference as the defensive coordinator of the Jets, Mike Pettine addressed linebacker Vernon Gholston.

And Pettine, the former Ravens linebackers coach, confirmed the beliefs of many regarding the player who was the sixth overall pick in the draft, and who probably shouldn’t have been.

“I thought that he was a tremendous athlete if you just look at what he did at the Combine, but being in shorts is one thing,” Pettine said in comments circulated by the team. “How it carries out on the field is another. We liked him. Some of the issues [were a] lack of consistency in some of his play.

“He would flash brilliance for two or three snaps and then, for awhile in the game, he would disappear,” Pettine said. “That’s one thing that we had in our notes. If he became a Raven, he was going to have to work on being more consistent. From a physical standpoint, he has all the tools. I’m looking forward to meeting Vernon and finding out what makes him tick, what he does well, get him going and get him some confidence and move on from there.”

Gholston made only 13 total tackles in 15 games, and at one point late in the season he was a healthy scratch.

He had no sacks, no interceptions, no passes defended, no forced fumbles, and no fumbles recovered.
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Lubber » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:01 pm

No thank you..

There were only two negatives that we noticed today. The first is his lack of discipline at times. As previously noted, he will occasionally guess (rather than read his key and diagnose) and attack the line of scrimmage hoping to blow the play up before it has time to develop. The second is his limitations in coverage.

Those are two huge aspects of life in the NFL. Not worthy of the #5 overall pick in my opinion. 10-15? yes. If Crabtree is still there, you get him. This tells BE that he better get his act together or bye-bye. And could you imagine if he shapes up? BE and Crabtree? Nice weapons.

Too bad Taylor Mays is staying is school because he would be my #5 pick for the Brownies. He could of done to the Browns D what Troy P did to the Steelers D
User avatar
Lubber
 
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:42 am
Favorite Player: London Fletcher
Least Favorite Player: LeBron James

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby DrPoove » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:02 pm

A crazy, high-motor ILB to anchor a 3-4 defense.

Why would we want someone like that.

Not like we have James Farrior or Ray lewis in our our division...

:roll :roll:
"What is understood need not be discussed."
-Loren Adams
User avatar
DrPoove
Special Guest Referee
 
Posts: 2279
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Lakewood, OH
Favorite Player: Cleveland
Least Favorite Player: The Inbred

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby DrPoove » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:03 pm

lubber wrote: If Crabtree is still there, you get him. This tells BE that he better get his act together or bye-bye. And could you imagine if he shapes up? BE and Crabtree? Nice weapons.

Shaking my head with my face in my hand...
"What is understood need not be discussed."
-Loren Adams
User avatar
DrPoove
Special Guest Referee
 
Posts: 2279
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Lakewood, OH
Favorite Player: Cleveland
Least Favorite Player: The Inbred

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby bw » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:06 pm

Gotribe31 wrote:I knew JB would love that :)

If not an LB, who do you want to see picked?



If you look at the Stoolers LBers, you'll find FA's, undrafted D-Players of the year, low (4th round) picks and trades that are starting. Woodley was a 2nd out of that school up North and Timmons was 15 overall out of Free Shoes U who hasn't cracked the starting line-up yet -- After two years.


IOW, not a seriously heavy investment in LBers. In fact, you'll find that the Stoolers don't even value them all that much. If they have one that gets an attitude and/or wants more money, they send him packing. Joey Porter? Yeah, they really miss him. And there was another one who was really well-known that the Stoolers let go. People jumped all over them but the Stoolers never missed a beat.


Now, I value a good LBer. If we had our D-Line all set, if we had our O-Line ready to rock and roll, if we had Corners that could back-peddle as fast they could run forwards, if we....... Get the point?


If you look at the LBers that were drafted really high in the recent past, they aren't doing all that much for their teams because -- Usually because the team that drafted them had/has a really $hitty D-Line. Urlacher was tearing up the League when he had a good DL in front of him. Stabbinkillaman had two pretty bad years with the Rats. Know why? He had a bad D-Line in front of him when those two fat-boys left. Goose and (?)Washington(?). And when the Rats went to a 3-4, which allowed O-Linemen into the D backfield, Ray-Ray got mutiliated by them. He was non-factor. They changed back to modified 4-3 pretty fast.

If we can shore up the D-Line through Free Agency, then maybe we can consider a LBer. But really good D-Linemen just don't hit the market that often. And when they do, you have to mortgage the stadium and your first-born to pay them. And unless their name begins with "Reggie" and ends with "White" they're seldom worth the price.


LBers? All over the place. Dozens of them in FA. Even more in the draft. Quality D-Linemen? Forget it. Quality corners? Unless they're headed for a criminal indictment, no way. Really, seriously high quality O-Linemen? Are U kidding me? Did you see what the Vikes paid for Hutchinson? A Guard? Highway robbery.

I don't dislike LBers. I love 'em, in fact. It's just that there are priorities we have that need to be filled. And if our team had a really good O and D-Line, the odds are good we wouldn't be drafting where we're drafting anyway.


I'm confusing myself.
User avatar
bw
 
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:14 am

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Triple-S » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:08 pm

You know damn well, that if we don't end up drafting he'll fall to shittsburgh and we'll have to hear how great he is for the next decade or so by their fans.

I'm not saying that's a reason for drafting him, just wanted to throw that out there.

In a division with the Steelers and Rats, we cannot win with the "Greatest show on Turf" we need some form of a defense and a strong ground game, both of which we havn't had since the mid 80's.

I've liked what I've seen out of him, and I don't trust drafting another ACC kid in Curry. For those wondering where some of those test results are based off of, they're for OLBs not MLB, which is most likely the position he played. We've been needing that position for a long time (even before I was born.), and I'm not saying the defense will be fixed over night by the choice of this draftpick, but this would certainly be a step in the right direction. If the Browns want, they can trade down, if not, they better damn well take this guy,

I don't want Malcolm Jenkins (Dude is a beast and if we had a better LBing corp. would take him in a heartbeat), Chris Wells (Like the kid, but, this year is LOADED at running back, we could wait until the next round and still get a good one.). Anybody calling for them needs take off the Scarlet and Grey tinted glasses and look rather at whether a guy can ball or not, and what our needs are. Hell, I'm adovcatiing taking LeSean McCoy in the 2nd round, and the dude grew up in Inbred country.
Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.


Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
User avatar
Triple-S
All-time leader in moral victories
 
Posts: 6379
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:26 pm
Location: Kent-Green, Ohio
Favorite Player: Yuengling
Least Favorite Player: Nati Light.

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby bw » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:11 pm

DrPoove wrote:
lubber wrote: If Crabtree is still there, you get him. This tells BE that he better get his act together or bye-bye. And could you imagine if he shapes up? BE and Crabtree? Nice weapons.

Shaking my head with my face in my hand...



Yeah. We might end up like some team named the Cardinals. Don't they have two VERY good WR's? And a QB whose best years were some time ago?

Just think how much trouble it would be to plan an entire weekend around watching the Browns in the Soupie Bowl?

Instead, let's draft another LBer and make excuses for the next decade. ;-) ;) :wink:
User avatar
bw
 
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:14 am

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:12 pm

I would be ok with a OT being drafted and slide him in at RT, but that certainly is alot of money for a RT. Regardless, I wouldnt be upset about that. If you want the D Line to be shored up you are going to be able to do FA or later rounds, I have yet to hear of a DL prospect worth taking in the top 15. So at 5 you will have a choice of OT (many) LB (Curry, Orakpo, Rey Rey), Malcolm Jenkins, QB, Crabtree or perhaps Moreno or Wells... what position or person excites you. Andre Smith? Crabtree? Jenkins (dear God no)? those are the other prospects at 5 who are not LB's
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Lubber » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:41 pm

DrPoove wrote:A crazy, high-motor ILB to anchor a 3-4 defense.

Why would we want someone like that.

Not like we have James Farrior or Ray lewis in our our division...

:roll :roll:


One big difference, Farrior and Lewis are very disciplined players and have been since college. It may seem to you like they are running around with their heads cut off. Next time you watch a Baltimore game, focus on Ray the entire game. Dude knows football schemes/blocking better then almost anyone I have seen in a while.

Rey-Rey has lots of talent.. no question. he is just not worthy of my pick at #5. anywhere below #15, for sure. but at #5 I think it is a risk given his lack of discipline. Unless he gets that part fixed, I think Little Animal will be a better fit in the NFL, at least a more stable fit for most teams. He knows football.
User avatar
Lubber
 
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:42 am
Favorite Player: London Fletcher
Least Favorite Player: LeBron James

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:55 pm

lubber wrote:
DrPoove wrote:A crazy, high-motor ILB to anchor a 3-4 defense.

Why would we want someone like that.

Not like we have James Farrior or Ray lewis in our our division...

:roll :roll:


One big difference, Farrior and Lewis are very disciplined players and have been since college. It may seem to you like they are running around with their heads cut off. Next time you watch a Baltimore game, focus on Ray the entire game. Dude knows football schemes/blocking better then almost anyone I have seen in a while.

Rey-Rey has lots of talent.. no question. he is just not worthy of my pick at #5. anywhere below #15, for sure. but at #5 I think it is a risk given his lack of discipline. Unless he gets that part fixed, I think Little Animal will be a better fit in the NFL, at least a more stable fit for most teams. He knows football.



I have been trying to find scouting reports on Farrior and Lewis with no luck. Anyone have any luck post them please. How can you determine that Rey is worthy of pick 15 and not 5. Either he can play or not. Like someone said before, he is a football player, just like Lewis and Farrior, they aren't the fastest or strongest but they get the job done with an attitude.
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby bw » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:07 pm

DrPoove wrote:A crazy, high-motor ILB to anchor a 3-4 defense.

Why would we want someone like that.

Not like we have James Farrior or Ray lewis in our our division...

:roll :roll:


Doc, LBers don't anchor a Defense. Never have, never will. They get the Press coverage because of what Sportwriters and the Fans SEE. And what we all SEE is the LBer cleaning up the disruption that the DL CAUSED.


The DL disrupts the play and the LBer cleans it up. When the DL breaks into the O-Backfield on pass-plays it opens holes for the LBers to go in and slap the QB around. When the O-Line blocking on a run-play gets disrupted by the D-Line, the LBer is there to clean it up.


Not always, of course. Sometimes great athletes like LBers make individual plays that are just simply outstanding. But without a GOOD DL in front of them, even the best LBers are in seriously big trouble.

Which is why we're seeing more and more Defensive Holding calls on D-Linemen. It used to hardly ever happen. But D-Linemen KNOW that if an O-Lineman gets past them and into the D-Backfield he can be like a shark in a school of fish.
User avatar
bw
 
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:14 am

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby DrPoove » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:14 pm

bw wrote:Doc, LBers don't anchor a Defense. Never have, never will. They get the Press coverage because of what Sportwriters and the Fans SEE. And what we all SEE is the LBer cleaning up the disruption that the DL CAUSED.

Sorry bro. Must disagree. I played in a 3-4 in college. You need the LBs to make plays. The line does eat up the blockers but you need impact LBs to make the plays.
"What is understood need not be discussed."
-Loren Adams
User avatar
DrPoove
Special Guest Referee
 
Posts: 2279
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Lakewood, OH
Favorite Player: Cleveland
Least Favorite Player: The Inbred

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Lubber » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:15 pm

Ziner wrote:
lubber wrote:
DrPoove wrote:A crazy, high-motor ILB to anchor a 3-4 defense.

Why would we want someone like that.

Not like we have James Farrior or Ray lewis in our our division...

:roll :roll:


One big difference, Farrior and Lewis are very disciplined players and have been since college. It may seem to you like they are running around with their heads cut off. Next time you watch a Baltimore game, focus on Ray the entire game. Dude knows football schemes/blocking better then almost anyone I have seen in a while.

Rey-Rey has lots of talent.. no question. he is just not worthy of my pick at #5. anywhere below #15, for sure. but at #5 I think it is a risk given his lack of discipline. Unless he gets that part fixed, I think Little Animal will be a better fit in the NFL, at least a more stable fit for most teams. He knows football.



I have been trying to find scouting reports on Farrior and Lewis with no luck. Anyone have any luck post them please. How can you determine that Rey is worthy of pick 15 and not 5. Either he can play or not. Like someone said before, he is a football player, just like Lewis and Farrior, they aren't the fastest or strongest but they get the job done with an attitude.


They get the job done because they play disciplined defense. They do not have to be the biggest or strongest if they understand blocking schemes and play solid fundy defense. Playing solo and guessing will not get it done.

How I can determine 5 versus 15?
Rey-Rey is that good of an athlete that he will be taken in the first round and in the upper half. In my opinion, I would not take him as high as 5 because I want disciplined players on defense. Your philosophy may be different, but in my lifetime of playing and coaching, the best defenses I have played on, watched, and coached, have always been the most disciplined, not the best athletes. Of course that makes me biased towards those types of players. Does that mean Rey-Rey stinks? By no means. It is just different styles and philosophies.
User avatar
Lubber
 
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:42 am
Favorite Player: London Fletcher
Least Favorite Player: LeBron James

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:17 pm

bw>

IOW, not a seriously heavy investment in LBers. In fact, you'll find that the Stoolers don't even value them all that much. If they have one that gets an attitude and/or wants more money, they send him packing. Joey Porter? Yeah, they really miss him. And there was another one who was really well-known that the Stoolers let go. People jumped all over them but the Stoolers never missed a beat.

SD:

bw just shut up .

The inbred don't even pursue free agents but they went after Farrior in a trade.

and the reason you can't use one of them mutha's after they run em thru their system is because the Steroids have burned em out when they decide to dump em.

But to make the case they aren't the key component to their defense and are unimportant is just plain asinine lunacy.

bw

Now, I value a good LBer. If we had our D-Line all set, if we had our O-Line ready to rock and roll, if we had Corners that could back-peddle as fast they could run forwards, if we....... Get the point?

SD:

we have not one lber who can blow up the POA meet a back in the whole who isn't the size of Metcalf and blow him up , destroy interference and turn outside sweeps inside rush the passer and put a QB in the hospital when we get there or do any one of a hundred effective things you glean from real linebacker play.

We got Bitch impersonators who couldn't tackle a cheerleader and make the stop on the other side of the line of scrimmage.

We need 5 linebackers three starters beside Dquell and two more for depth.

Hall or Wimbley may be salvageable assetts But neither would start for NE the inbred SD or the Dulphins for that matter if practice started tomorrow.

Our linebacker coach should be jailed for grand larceny

bw >

If you look at the LBers that were drafted really high in the recent past, they aren't doing all that much for their teams because -- Usually because the team that drafted them had/has a really $hitty D-Line. Urlacher was tearing up the League when he had a good DL in front of him. Stabbinkillaman had two pretty bad years with the Rats. Know why? He had a bad D-Line in front of him when those two fat-boys left. Goose and (?)Washington(?). And when the Rats went to a 3-4, which allowed O-Linemen into the D backfield, Ray-Ray got mutiliated by them. He was non-factor. They changed back to modified 4-3 pretty fast.

If we can shore up the D-Line through Free Agency, then maybe we can consider a LBer. But really good D-Linemen just don't hit the market that often. And when they do, you have to mortgage the stadium and your first-born to pay them. And unless their name begins with "Reggie" and ends with "White" they're seldom worth the price.


LBers? All over the place. Dozens of them in FA. Even more in the draft. Quality D-Linemen? Forget it. Quality corners? Unless they're headed for a criminal indictment, no way. Really, seriously high quality O-Linemen? Are U kidding me? Did you see what the Vikes paid for Hutchinson? A Guard? Highway robbery.

I don't dislike LBers. I love 'em, in fact. It's just that there are priorities we have that need to be filled. And if our team had a really good O and D-Line, the odds are good we wouldn't be drafting where we're drafting anyway.


I'm confusing myself.

SD:

No your not , your just stoopidly hating on a position due to your own ignorance of their value.

Take Woodley and Harrison and Farrior and insert ,
Andra Wimbley and Hall , and even with troy Polly Fuck nut , their sitting home on the couch alongside us.

Taylor Mays is the only player in this draft who could have possibly been considered above addressing this position , Malcolm Jenkins a distant second.

The only thing better than Grabbing Rey is moving back up late in the first and adding Mathews to go with him.

Or moving down one spot or two and still getting Rey and our third rounder lost by Phil to add another linebacker .


SoulDawg
SoulDawg74
 
Posts: 3103
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:36 pm

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Guest » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:18 pm

lubber wrote:If Crabtree is still there, you get him. This tells BE that he better get his act together or bye-bye.


That oughtta scare him.
Guest
 

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby OrangeElf » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:18 pm

lubber wrote:
Ziner wrote:
lubber wrote:
DrPoove wrote:A crazy, high-motor ILB to anchor a 3-4 defense.

Why would we want someone like that.

Not like we have James Farrior or Ray lewis in our our division...

:roll :roll:


One big difference, Farrior and Lewis are very disciplined players and have been since college. It may seem to you like they are running around with their heads cut off. Next time you watch a Baltimore game, focus on Ray the entire game. Dude knows football schemes/blocking better then almost anyone I have seen in a while.

Rey-Rey has lots of talent.. no question. he is just not worthy of my pick at #5. anywhere below #15, for sure. but at #5 I think it is a risk given his lack of discipline. Unless he gets that part fixed, I think Little Animal will be a better fit in the NFL, at least a more stable fit for most teams. He knows football.



I have been trying to find scouting reports on Farrior and Lewis with no luck. Anyone have any luck post them please. How can you determine that Rey is worthy of pick 15 and not 5. Either he can play or not. Like someone said before, he is a football player, just like Lewis and Farrior, they aren't the fastest or strongest but they get the job done with an attitude.


They get the job done because they play disciplined defense. They do not have to be the biggest or strongest if they understand blocking schemes and play solid fundy defense. Playing solo and guessing will not get it done.

How I can determine 5 versus 15?
Rey-Rey is that good of an athlete that he will be taken in the first round and in the upper half. In my opinion, I would not take him as high as 5 because I want disciplined players on defense. Your philosophy may be different, but in my lifetime of playing and coaching, the best defenses I have played on, watched, and coached, have always been the most disciplined, not the best athletes. Of course that makes me biased towards those types of players. Does that mean Rey-Rey stinks? By no means. It is just different styles and philosophies.


They need to trade down anyway especially if Crabtree is still on the board at #5 and Curry is gone.
"On the Brown and Orange bandwagon since 1972 and never gettin' off"
User avatar
OrangeElf
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:09 pm
Location: Burnsville, MN
Favorite Player: Gene Hickerson
Least Favorite Player: Any in Black~n~Gold

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:20 pm

DrPoove wrote:
bw wrote:Doc, LBers don't anchor a Defense. Never have, never will. They get the Press coverage because of what Sportwriters and the Fans SEE. And what we all SEE is the LBer cleaning up the disruption that the DL CAUSED.

Sorry bro. Must disagree. I played in a 3-4 in college. You need the LBs to make plays. The line does eat up the blockers but you need impact LBs to make the plays.


Agree with Poove, What else are we going to do to improve our DL? Shaun Rogers, Corey Williams, Robaire Smith, Shaun Smith (if he sticks around) have to be able to get it done. Bottom line, how much more are we expected to pay? Who are we going to upgrade? Who goes? Williams and Rogers are here regardless because of their contracts. Our LB's need a serious upgrade. Do you think Kam Wimbley is not James Harrison because he doesnt have an equivilent DL or because Kam Wimbley doesnt have the talent James Harrison does. To me he doesnt have the talent, and he may be our best LB, if not the 2nd best.
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Crash Davis » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:26 pm

Ziner wrote:
DrPoove wrote:
bw wrote:Doc, LBers don't anchor a Defense. Never have, never will. They get the Press coverage because of what Sportwriters and the Fans SEE. And what we all SEE is the LBer cleaning up the disruption that the DL CAUSED.

Sorry bro. Must disagree. I played in a 3-4 in college. You need the LBs to make plays. The line does eat up the blockers but you need impact LBs to make the plays.


Agree with Poove, What else are we going to do to improve our DL? Shaun Rogers, Corey Williams, Robaire Smith, Shaun Smith (if he sticks around) have to be able to get it done. Bottom line, how much more are we expected to pay? Who are we going to upgrade? Who goes? Williams and Rogers are here regardless because of their contracts. Our LB's need a serious upgrade. Do you think Kam Wimbley is not James Harrison because he doesnt have an equivilent DL or because Kam Wimbley doesnt have the talent James Harrison does. To me he doesnt have the talent, and he may be our best LB, if not the 2nd best.



We have so much money invested in the d-line and if healthy we have the bodies to do more than a adequate job of keeping the opposing O-line off the LB's. We need LB's that can actually make plays and not just five yards down the field. They must be aggressive, physical attacking LB'ers, not the ones that this team has been putting out there the last three or four years.
"PREDICTION: R.I.P. Chief Wahoo"
User avatar
Crash Davis
 
Posts: 1856
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:54 pm
Favorite Player: Lawrence Vickers
Least Favorite Player: SteelerDramaQueenQB

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby bw » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:08 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:bw>

IOW, not a seriously heavy investment in LBers. In fact, you'll find that the Stoolers don't even value them all that much. If they have one that gets an attitude and/or wants more money, they send him packing. Joey Porter? Yeah, they really miss him. And there was another one who was really well-known that the Stoolers let go. People jumped all over them but the Stoolers never missed a beat.

SD:

bw just shut up .

The inbred don't even pursue free agents but they went after Farrior in a trade.

and the reason you can't use one of them mutha's after they run em thru their system is because the Steroids have burned em out when they decide to dump em.

But to make the case they aren't the key component to their defense and are unimportant is just plain asinine lunacy.

bw

Now, I value a good LBer. If we had our D-Line all set, if we had our O-Line ready to rock and roll, if we had Corners that could back-peddle as fast they could run forwards, if we....... Get the point?

SD:

we have not one lber who can blow up the POA meet a back in the whole who isn't the size of Metcalf and blow him up , destroy interference and turn outside sweeps inside rush the passer and put a QB in the hospital when we get there or do any one of a hundred effective things you glean from real linebacker play.

We got Bitch impersonators who couldn't tackle a cheerleader and make the stop on the other side of the line of scrimmage.

We need 5 linebackers three starters beside Dquell and two more for depth.

Hall or Wimbley may be salvageable assetts But neither would start for NE the inbred SD or the Dulphins for that matter if practice started tomorrow.

Our linebacker coach should be jailed for grand larceny

bw >

If you look at the LBers that were drafted really high in the recent past, they aren't doing all that much for their teams because -- Usually because the team that drafted them had/has a really $hitty D-Line. Urlacher was tearing up the League when he had a good DL in front of him. Stabbinkillaman had two pretty bad years with the Rats. Know why? He had a bad D-Line in front of him when those two fat-boys left. Goose and (?)Washington(?). And when the Rats went to a 3-4, which allowed O-Linemen into the D backfield, Ray-Ray got mutiliated by them. He was non-factor. They changed back to modified 4-3 pretty fast.

If we can shore up the D-Line through Free Agency, then maybe we can consider a LBer. But really good D-Linemen just don't hit the market that often. And when they do, you have to mortgage the stadium and your first-born to pay them. And unless their name begins with "Reggie" and ends with "White" they're seldom worth the price.


LBers? All over the place. Dozens of them in FA. Even more in the draft. Quality D-Linemen? Forget it. Quality corners? Unless they're headed for a criminal indictment, no way. Really, seriously high quality O-Linemen? Are U kidding me? Did you see what the Vikes paid for Hutchinson? A Guard? Highway robbery.

I don't dislike LBers. I love 'em, in fact. It's just that there are priorities we have that need to be filled. And if our team had a really good O and D-Line, the odds are good we wouldn't be drafting where we're drafting anyway.


I'm confusing myself.

SD:

No your not , your just stoopidly hating on a position due to your own ignorance of their value.

Take Woodley and Harrison and Farrior and insert ,
Andra Wimbley and Hall , and even with troy Polly Fuck nut , their sitting home on the couch alongside us.

Taylor Mays is the only player in this draft who could have possibly been considered above addressing this position , Malcolm Jenkins a distant second.

The only thing better than Grabbing Rey is moving back up late in the first and adding Mathews to go with him.

Or moving down one spot or two and still getting Rey and our third rounder lost by Phil to add another linebacker .


SoulDawg


Curious. Hmmmm. The New England Patriots are coached by a man who believes in the 3-4 as much, or more, than any other Head Coach. In fact, Belichick was one of the very first to install the 3-4. At the Gints.

He probably knows a little about the 3-4. And you know what? All three of his starting D-Linemen were first round picks. Two of them were way high.

Their LBers?? Vrabel, a third round cast-off of the Stoolers. Bruschi? Third round. Adalius Thomas? A FA pickup who was drafted in the 6th round by the Rats. Jared Mayo was a 1st round pick but the jury is still SERIOUSLY out on him. He's been something of a disappointment do far.

Weren't Vrabel and Bruschi 'undersized' D-Linemen in College? Why...... Yes. I beleive they were. Point being, I don't hate LBers. I just don't think you spend high picks on them because there are just so many good ones out there. In fact, that is the theory BEHIND the 3-4. DE's like Deacon Jones and Reggie White are just too rare and too expensive. The theory is, you can take a LBer later in the Draft and use him in a 3-4 that has almost the same impact as a VERY expensive 4-3.

That's the WHOLE point of the 3-4. I mean, if we're going to use high (VERY high) 1st round picks on LBers, then what's the point? Just go for a 4-3 DE and draft the players you need for it.


The greatest defenses that ever played were 4-3's. The Bucs a few years ago, the '85 Bears and '01 Rats. And while the Stoolers are good on defense, they couldn't carry any one those defense's jock straps.

The whole idea behind the 3-4 is to not spend heavy bread on the front seven. Use the money for the Corners and for the Offense.
User avatar
bw
 
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:14 am

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:15 pm

bw wrote:
The whole idea behind the 3-4 is to not spend heavy bread on the front seven. Use the money for the Corners and for the Offense.


Dude what are you smoking. You just went through BB's 3-4 and stated they have 4 first round picks and 1 huge FA pick up (regardless of round the guy is good and expensive). So 5 of the 7 are getting PAID. How does that free up money for Corners and offense in BB's system? The offensive linemen of late draft picks? The QB or RB of late draft picks? Oh you must mean spend money and draft corners, oh like Asante Samuel they wouldnt pay? Get out of here with this bullshit.
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:19 pm

bw wrote: The theory is, you can take a LBer later in the Draft and use him in a 3-4 that has almost the same impact as a VERY expensive 4-3.


If that was the theory why didnt BB take Leodis McKelvin, Dominique Rodgers Cromartie, or one of the many other OT's taken after Mayo at 10
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby bw » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:34 pm

Ziner wrote:
bw wrote:
The whole idea behind the 3-4 is to not spend heavy bread on the front seven. Use the money for the Corners and for the Offense.


Dude what are you smoking. You just went through BB's 3-4 and stated they have 4 first round picks and 1 huge FA pick up (regardless of round the guy is good and expensive). So 5 of the 7 are getting PAID. How does that free up money for Corners and offense in BB's system? The offensive linemen of late draft picks? The QB or RB of late draft picks? Oh you must mean spend money and draft corners, oh like Asante Samuel they wouldnt pay? Get out of here with this bullshit.


Because of the proliferation of the 3-4 Defense, the DE is not the cost it used to be on average in the NFL. But if you run a 4-3, the DE is THE most expensive position on the Defense. Followed by Corner, then LBer, then Safety.

If you run a 3-4 then Corner is the most expensive position. The DEs in the 3-4 are paid more like DTs than they are like the Mario Williams's and Julius Peppers of the NFL.

A QB taken at the #5 overall pick is going to be paid a LOT more than a Safety or an RB. When they take these guys in the 1st round, they're not paid like other first rounders. They're not payed like the elite DE's of the world. And the players and their agents know it.
User avatar
bw
 
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:14 am

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby jb » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:35 pm

Hiko wrote:
lubber wrote:If Crabtree is still there, you get him. This tells BE that he better get his act together or bye-bye.


That oughtta scare him.



I am your fanclub.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby jb » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:38 pm

bw wrote:Watched him a tiny bit on NFL Network at the Senior Bowl practices.

Not impressed.




Who was the 2005 Senior Bowl MVP?

Thank you for playing.

Parting gifts at the door.

You draft based on November, not winter and spring.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby jb » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:40 pm

lubber wrote:No thank you..

There were only two negatives that we noticed today. The first is his lack of discipline at times. As previously noted, he will occasionally guess (rather than read his key and diagnose) and attack the line of scrimmage hoping to blow the play up before it has time to develop. The second is his limitations in coverage.

Those are two huge aspects of life in the NFL. Not worthy of the #5 overall pick in my opinion. 10-15? yes. If Crabtree is still there, you get him. This tells BE that he better get his act together or bye-bye. And could you imagine if he shapes up? BE and Crabtree? Nice weapons.




Matt Millen is no longer in the NFL. Thank God. He's certainly not in C-town.

Gap discipline can be learned via good coaching and being coachable - if necesarry.

KO hitting ability and game changing impact playmaking is innate.

Yous either gots it, or yous ain't.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby jb » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:43 pm

bw wrote:
Gotribe31 wrote:I knew JB would love that :)

If not an LB, who do you want to see picked?



If you look at the Stoolers LBers, you'll find FA's, undrafted D-Players of the year, low (4th round) picks and trades that are starting. Woodley was a 2nd out of that school up North and Timmons was 15 overall out of Free Shoes U who hasn't cracked the starting line-up yet -- After two years.


...


I'm confusing myself.



Yes. You are.

Timmons will replace Farrior, a high priced UFA, once he moves on.

Only 2 of 4 players taken in day one equlas minimal investiment.

Like Jimmy used to say, "beam me up, Scottie".
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:46 pm

bw wrote:
Because of the proliferation of the 3-4 Defense, the DE is not the cost it used to be on average in the NFL. But if you run a 4-3, the DE is THE most expensive position on the Defense. Followed by Corner, then LBer, then Safety.


Oh really, thanks for information I already know and is irrelevant, you are saying not to invest a 1st round pick on a front 7 guy and then use a team who has 4 of their front 7 as first rounders as your example.

bw wrote:If you run a 3-4 then Corner is the most expensive position.


Name the Patriots really expensive corners, how about the Steelers? Ravens? You want us to take Malcolm Jenkins? Thats great, he will be used a ton when teams average 200 ypg rushing on us.

bw wrote: The DEs in the 3-4 are paid more like DTs than they are like the Mario Williams's and Julius Peppers of the NFL.


Once again thanks, I dont know what I would do with out your wealth of knowledge concerning the NFL


bw wrote:A QB taken at the #5 overall pick is going to be paid a LOT more than a Safety or an RB. When they take these guys in the 1st round, they're not paid like other first rounders. They're not payed like the elite DE's of the world. And the players and their agents know it.


Once again thanks, I appreciate you telling me things that any casual fan knows, however you didnt make a point. You say not to use a 1st round pick on a front 7 guy?

The use of the 3-4 has nothing to do with the salary cap and the amount the guys who play it get paid. It has to do with disguising a rusher. Thats it. I am sure you know that. Drafting LBs who can Blitz, play the run and pass is what we you need to draft, I dont care what round. The guys we have playing LB arent cutting it right now, No DL are reasonable to take with the 5th pick.

Does all this come down to you wanting Malcolm Jenkins? Are you just a Buckeye homer or what? I dont get it. You make no sense in your arguments.
Last edited by Ziner on Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:47 pm

JB I agree with you 100% on all of the above, I am just not going to bother to quote it all.
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby bw » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:21 pm

JB wrote:
bw wrote:
Gotribe31 wrote:I knew JB would love that :)

If not an LB, who do you want to see picked?



If you look at the Stoolers LBers, you'll find FA's, undrafted D-Players of the year, low (4th round) picks and trades that are starting. Woodley was a 2nd out of that school up North and Timmons was 15 overall out of Free Shoes U who hasn't cracked the starting line-up yet -- After two years.


...


I'm confusing myself.



Yes. You are.

Timmons will replace Farrior, a high priced UFA, once he moves on.

Only 2 of 4 players taken in day one equlas minimal investiment.

Like Jimmy used to say, "beam me up, Scottie".



My whole, entire point on this subject is that it is supposed to be cheaper to run a 3-4 than it is a 4-3. IOW, you can take quality LBers and D-Linemen later in the draft and still field a good defense. It's the whole, entire, complete point of the 3-4. Period. It's the reason it was invented. It was invented because teams were spending way more money than they wanted to in keeping VERY expensive DE's on the roster. Not only are they expensive, they are rare. As in -- Very hard to find. And when you do find them, you end up spending so much money on them that the rest of the defense suffers.


With the rules changes of today giving advantages to Offenses, teams are spending quite a bit more of their salary cap on the Offense because -- They have to. That limits the amount of money they can spend on the Defense. And with that burden comes the necessity of limiting your expenditures on the Defense.


I am not saying we should draft a glorifed DT to play as a DE in a 3-4. I don't think we should at #5. That lofty draft position is limited to top flight QB's, Corners, 4-3 DE's and OLT's IMHO. And sometimes, rarely, a slam-dunk WR, if there is such a thing.


I think we're in a tough position. Real tough. It might be tough to trade down because there's not a 'premier' player that's going to fall that far. If there even is one this year. We already have a good OLT so taking another one is not going to happen. I don't think Crabtree will be there.

I'd like a straight answer from those of you who know -- Is Jenkins worthy of a #5 overall? Forget what YOU want, is he worthy of it?

P.S. What you want? And what I want? I don't think the Browsn FO really cares all that much.
User avatar
bw
 
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:14 am

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby DrPoove » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:26 pm

JB wrote:Who was the 2005 Senior Bowl MVP?


Chaz Frye.
"What is understood need not be discussed."
-Loren Adams
User avatar
DrPoove
Special Guest Referee
 
Posts: 2279
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Lakewood, OH
Favorite Player: Cleveland
Least Favorite Player: The Inbred

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby BadBecks » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:27 pm

JB wrote:
bw wrote:
Gotribe31 wrote:I knew JB would love that :)

If not an LB, who do you want to see picked?



If you look at the Stoolers LBers, you'll find FA's, undrafted D-Players of the year, low (4th round) picks and trades that are starting. Woodley was a 2nd out of that school up North and Timmons was 15 overall out of Free Shoes U who hasn't cracked the starting line-up yet -- After two years.


...


I'm confusing myself.



Yes. You are.

Timmons will replace Farrior, a high priced UFA, once he moves on.

Only 2 of 4 players taken in day one equlas minimal investiment.

Like Jimmy used to say, "beam me up, Scottie".


Also, the Steelers have such a great system in place (along with talent) that they can afford to draft and develop their LB's and then promote from within once their players are ready to bolt for the big bucks (i.e. Lloyd, Brown, Greene, Kirkland, Holmes, etc.). IMO, it's in intregal component to maintaining success in what I consider the new "modern" NFL era that...the free agency era that started in the early to mid 90's.

It's similar to what Bill does in NE with both his coaching staff and players. They only know the New England/Pittsburgh way for the most part.

I would give my left nut and my vintage sports card collection to see the Browns build and develop something similar here.
"Don't Hassle Me...I'm a Local" - Bob Wiley (shirt)
User avatar
BadBecks
Kid Cleveland
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:15 pm
Location: Chippewa Lake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Eric Turner
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:30 pm

Their LBers?? Vrabel, a third round cast-off of the Stoolers. Bruschi? Third round. Adalius Thomas? A FA pickup who was drafted in the 6th round by the Rats. Jared Mayo was a 1st round pick but the jury is still SERIOUSLY out on him. He's been something of a disappointment do far.


Not to pile on (OK maybe) but.... what are you smoking?

You're telling me the jury's still out on a guy that started every game for a perennial championship contender and only won the NFL Defensive Rookie of the year award in a near-unanimous vote? Is that what you're saying? :lmfao:

I'm sure you wouldn't take him though, he's an LB. You'd probably rather have Ellis Hobbs than Mayo.
Fuck the Browns...
User avatar
rebelwithoutaclue
 
Posts: 3639
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 11:43 am
Location: Under them Skies of Blue
Favorite Player: Kyrie Irving
Least Favorite Player: Mike Lombardi

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:35 pm

Mel Kiper has Rey falling all the way to the late teens. FWIW. If we can trade down and still get him, I think we must. FTR Kiper has us taking Curry at #5. That would be ok with me.

Question: Who the hell is scouting for us at the Senior Bowl?
"Our name is Legion, for we are many."
User avatar
Cerebral_DownTime
Go f#%k yourself
 
Posts: 14422
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:31 am
Location: Galloway Ohio
Favorite Player: Fenrir
Least Favorite Player: Walt Flannigan's dog

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby gotribe31 » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:39 pm

LB's are the playmakers in a 3-4 defense. A 3-4 cannot be a dominant defense with 4 JAG's playing LB. More than anything, you need a guy in the middle can fly around from sideline to sideline and deliver a hit when he gets there. Both Rey-Rey and Curry fit the bill. I honestly cannot see how anyone can look at the 2009 Cleveland Browns and suggest drafting Michael Crabtree.

I like Malcom Jenkins and think he will be an outstanding cover corner who can also support the run. That being said, LB is a FAR higher priority for this team.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves
-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts.
-----Lars
User avatar
gotribe31
 
Posts: 2494
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:38 pm
Location: Fairfax, VA
Favorite Player: Francisco Lindor
Least Favorite Player: Michigan

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby jordan kramer » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:48 pm

i watched Maualuga a lot the last 2 years and he is the best LB in this draft and will be a perennial pro bowler for years to come. i don't care if scouts say Curry is better, i'll take Rey everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. and Rey's teammate Brian Cushing will be a great pro too
"i've been gettin G-ed up since i came out the hospital as a baby. i didn't wear pampers, i wore some slacks and some gators on the way home."
"in order for us to grow u gotta know, in order to love the brotherman, u gotta know the otherman. because one fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish. knick knack paddy wack, give the dog a bone." - Delonte West

"i'm going to pull your endocrine system out of your body" - Gary Busey
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Who cares about this crap?

WE GOT A MUTHA FUCKIN EARTHQUAKE MACHINE!
User avatar
jordan kramer
 
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:24 pm
Location: "the brooklyn of youngstown"
Favorite Player: brown eyed girls
Least Favorite Player: my girlfriend

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby bw » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:50 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
Their LBers?? Vrabel, a third round cast-off of the Stoolers. Bruschi? Third round. Adalius Thomas? A FA pickup who was drafted in the 6th round by the Rats. Jared Mayo was a 1st round pick but the jury is still SERIOUSLY out on him. He's been something of a disappointment do far.


Not to pile on (OK maybe) but.... what are you smoking?

You're telling me the jury's still out on a guy that started every game for a perennial championship contender and only won the NFL Defensive Rookie of the year award in a near-unanimous vote? Is that what you're saying? :lmfao:

I'm sure you wouldn't take him though, he's an LB. You'd probably rather have Ellis Hobbs than Mayo.


Yeah, that's what I'm telling you. The defensive crop of rookies this year was beyond paltry. It was almost non-existant. IOW, a joke.

And you're using Mayo, quite possibly the most overrated player taken in last year's draft, a Rookie Defensive POY with no sacks (0) voted over a Rook LBer in Cinci (who is all but unknown) to bolster your position?


Great. Just great. The last LBer we got was really good too, huh? How we making out with him? Boy, we sure snookered The Rats by tricking them into taking Ngata instead, Huh? And I don't even want to think about Cousineau. You remember that one? No? Didn't think so.


That draft pick we gave Buffalo for him? They used it on some guy named Jim Kelly. Ever heard of him? A big nobody, huh?

Do you think maybe, just maybe, there's a reason why LBers don't go that high anymore? How many have been drafted #1 overall in the last thirty years or so? Besides Cousineau -- A grand total of one (1). And he worked out real well, too. Aundray Bruce. Heard of him? There's a reason why.


You guys are not getting my point. If we want to draft a LBer in the first, I'm not going to get all upset about it. I just think it's stoopid to take one in the top five when we have serious needs at other positions. If we were drafting at 20 or 25, I'd have no bitch at all. But at #5 ???
User avatar
bw
 
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:14 am

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby jordan kramer » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:50 pm

and triple-s, your signature officially gave me a boner
"i've been gettin G-ed up since i came out the hospital as a baby. i didn't wear pampers, i wore some slacks and some gators on the way home."
"in order for us to grow u gotta know, in order to love the brotherman, u gotta know the otherman. because one fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish. knick knack paddy wack, give the dog a bone." - Delonte West

"i'm going to pull your endocrine system out of your body" - Gary Busey
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Who cares about this crap?

WE GOT A MUTHA FUCKIN EARTHQUAKE MACHINE!
User avatar
jordan kramer
 
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:24 pm
Location: "the brooklyn of youngstown"
Favorite Player: brown eyed girls
Least Favorite Player: my girlfriend

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby gotribe31 » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:55 pm

bw wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
Their LBers?? Vrabel, a third round cast-off of the Stoolers. Bruschi? Third round. Adalius Thomas? A FA pickup who was drafted in the 6th round by the Rats. Jared Mayo was a 1st round pick but the jury is still SERIOUSLY out on him. He's been something of a disappointment do far.


Not to pile on (OK maybe) but.... what are you smoking?

You're telling me the jury's still out on a guy that started every game for a perennial championship contender and only won the NFL Defensive Rookie of the year award in a near-unanimous vote? Is that what you're saying? :lmfao:

I'm sure you wouldn't take him though, he's an LB. You'd probably rather have Ellis Hobbs than Mayo.


Yeah, that's what I'm telling you. The defensive crop of rookies this year was beyond paltry. It was almost non-existant. IOW, a joke.

And you're using Mayo, quite possibly the most overrated player taken in last year's draft, a Rookie Defensive POY with no sacks (0) voted over a Rook LBer in Cinci (who is all but unknown) to bolster your position?


Great. Just great. The last LBer we got was really good too, huh? How we making out with him? Boy, we sure snookered The Rats by tricking them into taking Ngata instead, Huh? And I don't even want to think about Cousineau. You remember that one? No? Didn't think so.


That draft pick we gave Buffalo for him? They used it on some guy named Jim Kelly. Ever heard of him? A big nobody, huh?

Do you think maybe, just maybe, there's a reason why LBers don't go that high anymore? How many have been drafted #1 overall in the last thirty years or so? Besides Cousineau -- A grand total of one (1). And he worked out real well, too. Aundray Bruce. Heard of him? There's a reason why.


You guys are not getting my point. If we want to draft a LBer in the first, I'm not going to get all upset about it. I just think it's stoopid to take one in the top five when we have serious needs at other positions. If we were drafting at 20 or 25, I'd have no bitch at all. But at #5 ???


Reaching back to Couisenau, are we?

No need at any position on this team is as serious as that of LB. Not even close.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves
-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts.
-----Lars
User avatar
gotribe31
 
Posts: 2494
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:38 pm
Location: Fairfax, VA
Favorite Player: Francisco Lindor
Least Favorite Player: Michigan

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:10 pm

Alright BW, you are arguing that we shouldnt take a LB in the top 5. I say why the hell not. Lets look at the past 6 drafts and see who the first LB was taken and how they have done. While only one is in the top 5, my point is I dont give a shit because I want a football player. I dont consider it a reach if the player turns out well. Now first LB off the board since 2003

2003 - Terrell Suggs - 3-4 Team #9 pick
2004 - Vilma - I believe they were 4-3 at the time - 12
2005 - Ware 3-4, 11 and Merriman 3-4 12
2006 - Hawk 4-3 switching to a 3-4, 5 and Sims 4-3 at 9
2007 - Willis 3-4 at 11
2008 Gholston 3-4 6, Rivers 4-3 9, Mayo 3-4 10

So there have been 9 LB's taken in the top 12 in 6 drafts. ONE has been a bust, all the other if not pro-bowlers are very solid players. 6 of those 9 were drafted by 3-4 teams so there goes your theory about not having to draft them high.

Listen, we need a good football player who can impact our defense from day one. That guy is Curry or Maulauga, not Crabtree or Jenkins. I dont see the Pats or Steelers caring if they reach for a player, why because that guy more times out of not turns out to be a stud. Forget Kiper, forget McAss, forget what LB's should be paid, forget your ridiculous theory that 3-4 defenses were designed to be cheap. Draft a freaking LB
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:14 pm

I think we should move KWII to WR and find a new TE


.....but if we don't sign any FA's or take 2 LBs in the first 3-4 rounds I'm going to shoot a freaking TV
Hope is a moment now long past
The Shadow of Death is the one I cast
Koo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus
User avatar
Fire Marshall Bill
 
Posts: 2691
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:00 pm
Favorite Player: Killer Bean
Least Favorite Player: Charcoal&Piss

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby BadBecks » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:19 pm

bw wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
Their LBers?? Vrabel, a third round cast-off of the Stoolers. Bruschi? Third round. Adalius Thomas? A FA pickup who was drafted in the 6th round by the Rats. Jared Mayo was a 1st round pick but the jury is still SERIOUSLY out on him. He's been something of a disappointment do far.


Not to pile on (OK maybe) but.... what are you smoking?

You're telling me the jury's still out on a guy that started every game for a perennial championship contender and only won the NFL Defensive Rookie of the year award in a near-unanimous vote? Is that what you're saying? :lmfao:

I'm sure you wouldn't take him though, he's an LB. You'd probably rather have Ellis Hobbs than Mayo.


Yeah, that's what I'm telling you. The defensive crop of rookies this year was beyond paltry. It was almost non-existant. IOW, a joke.

And you're using Mayo, quite possibly the most overrated player taken in last year's draft, a Rookie Defensive POY with no sacks (0) voted over a Rook LBer in Cinci (who is all but unknown) to bolster your position?


Great. Just great. The last LBer we got was really good too, huh? How we making out with him? Boy, we sure snookered The Rats by tricking them into taking Ngata instead, Huh? And I don't even want to think about Cousineau. You remember that one? No? Didn't think so.


That draft pick we gave Buffalo for him? They used it on some guy named Jim Kelly. Ever heard of him? A big nobody, huh?

Do you think maybe, just maybe, there's a reason why LBers don't go that high anymore? How many have been drafted #1 overall in the last thirty years or so? Besides Cousineau -- A grand total of one (1). And he worked out real well, too. Aundray Bruce. Heard of him? There's a reason why.


You guys are not getting my point. If we want to draft a LBer in the first, I'm not going to get all upset about it. I just think it's stoopid to take one in the top five when we have serious needs at other positions. If we were drafting at 20 or 25, I'd have no bitch at all. But at #5 ???


So you think Mayo is overrated just because he didn't have a sack in NE's defense? The guy led the team in tackles (by a wide margin-like 45 or so) and likely part of the reason he didn't have a sack was due to his responsibilities in the NE defense. Remember, after Thomas came from Baltimore, he hasn't been the sack-master he was with the Ravens due to his place in the new system. Just remember, sacks don't tell the whole story about how good a LB is...especially in a 3-4 defense.

Tom Cousineau went to St. Ed's as well. Someone told me he was gay.
"Don't Hassle Me...I'm a Local" - Bob Wiley (shirt)
User avatar
BadBecks
Kid Cleveland
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:15 pm
Location: Chippewa Lake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Eric Turner
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: Rey-Rey's SR Bowl scouting report

Unread postby noles1 » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:38 pm

BadBecks wrote:Tom Cousineau went to St. Ed's as well. Someone told me he was gay.


My buddy told me a hilarious story about him and Leon Bibb... If it wasn't true it was damn funny at least.
Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle
User avatar
noles1
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:32 pm
Location: Clarion, PA
Favorite Player: Jason Kipnis
Least Favorite Player: Mark May's Parents

Next

Return to Cleveland Browns & The NFL

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ybot and 2 guests

cron

Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: ybot and 2 guests