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Tribe TV Deal....not looking good

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Tribe TV Deal....not looking good

Unread postby consigliere » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:28 pm

In addition to the comments by DiBiasio from the Indians article posted today on this site, here is some more info:

http://www.indeonline.com/left.php?ID=5 ... Category=1

Tribe fans face TV blackout

Friday, February 17, 2006

By JOE SHAHEEN
Joe.Shaheen@...


Cleveland Indians fans in Massillon and much of Western Stark County
are on the verge of getting blacked out for the 2006 season.

The Indians have taken their games off of Fox Sports Ohio and have
formed an in-house concern – Fastball Sports Productions – to
distribute the games to individual cable companies and satellite dish
carriers.

The only cable operator to sign on so far is Time Warner, which
provides service to much of central and eastern Stark County.

The 32,000 customers serviced by Massillon Cable are not included in
that deal. To date no satellite dish companies, such as DirecTV and
Dish Network, have signed on either.

Massillon Cable President Bob Gessner says the Indians want Massillon
Cable to provide them with a channel on basic cable for approximately
130 games this season, plus pre- and post-game shows and the
occasional special programming. Some 20 Indians games will be carried
on WKYC TV-3 with several others being shown on national television,
via ESPN or Fox.

The price the Indians want to charge Massillon Cable, Gessner says,
is double what was being charged by Fox Sports Ohio which carried the
vast majority of Indians games since the late 1990s. What's more,
Gessner noted, is fewer games are being offered this year compared to
last season.

"We're trying to stick up for our customers," Gessner said. "The
Indians are offering very little programming for an enormous cost.

"The Indians are demanding a full-time channel for more money and
plan to fill less than 10 percent of the time with programming."

Massillon Cable countered the Indians initial proposal by offering
them a channel outside the basic cable package, which would be an
optional package for Massillon Cable customers at an additional price.

"We have offered to give the Indians 100 percent of the revenue from
a separate Indians package," Gessner said. "They can set the price
and keep all the money. So far, they have refused."

Time is getting short. Spring training games begin early next month
and the regular season opener is April 2.

Massillon Cable's basic service package – which includes 77 channels –
costs customers $42.30 per month. Massillon Cable announced a rate
freeze for 2006 several months ago and Gessner says he is committed
to holding the line on its charges.

"We know people in this community love the Indians," Gessner
said. "We're looking to strike a reasonable balance."

Time Warner, on the verge of acquiring Adelphia Cable which serves
many Cleveland suburbs, will soon have close to one million cable
customers in northeast Ohio. It will offer the Indians games as part
of its basic cable package.

The rub, Gessner says, is Time Warner's deal with the Indians is
different from the one the team presented to Massillon Cable and
other smaller cable operators such as Cox Cable, Wide Open West,
Armstrong Utilities and others throughout the northern half of the
state.

"I'm 99 percent sure we're not getting the same deal as Time Warner,"
Gessner said. "(Time Warner) wouldn't have done this type of deal if
there wasn't an additional benefit for them."

The implication is the Indians have secured what is by far the area's
largest cable operator, putting the smaller ones under the pressure
of the market place to somehow make the games available to their
customers despite what they consider to be an exorbitant price tag.

Since the terms of the contract the Indians are offering Massillon
Cable and others mandates the games be part of a basic cable package,
the company cannot recover the additional cost of the games by
putting them on a premium channel that carries an additional charge.
A cable company's only recourse would be to raise its rates for basic
cable, Gessner said, in essence charging all customers for something
that benefits only those who want to watch the Tribe on television.

From 1992-97, the majority of Indians games were carried on
SportsChannel – a predecessor of Fox Sports Net – and Massillon Cable
made the games available to its customers at an extra charge of about
$5 per month.

The Indians referred all questions to Jim Liberatore, president of
Fastball Sports Productions. He did not return a telephone call to
his office late Thursday afternoon.
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Unread postby furls » Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:14 pm

WOW that sucks donkey balls!

I didnt realize that the tribe would not be on fox sports this year. I live in columbus and FSN was my link to the Indians. I am pretty sure that Time Warner will not be offering the tribe down here so I guess I'll go back to sort of following the indians. I can't whole heartedly follow a team on the radio and as a small market team we can't count on any real coverage from ESPN even if they are awesome. :(

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Unread postby Lebowski » Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:28 pm

What a clusterfuck...

This is a PR nightmare, especially after the Coco trade, which was unpopular with the average fan.

Reminds me of old days, when Browns games would get blacked-out.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:06 am

So, what is everyone's status right now regarding seeing the Tribe by the first STO broadcast on April 4th (less then 4 weeks from now)?

I have Adelphia up in NE Ohio in the Lake County area, and still not a peep on the new Indians channel. I know Time Warner is supposed to take over.....but geeze, when? Are there plans to have Adelphia broadcast the games until Time Warner takes over?

Seeing how the first ST broadcast is this Sunday, and I will miss it, I am starting to get a little pissed.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:54 am

STO finally with some info on the site, and they have a way to see if your provider has an agreement:

http://www.sportstimeohio.com/index.jsp

Click on your provider and it will say one of a number of things:

1. We have an agreement tune into channel _ _ _.
2. We don't have an agreement but expect one soon.
3. We don't have an agreement, call them at _ _ _- _ _ _ _.
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Unread postby pup » Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:22 pm

I have Comcast and the above link tells me they are "working with Comcast". So I did some channel searching and I have channel 73, SPTOH with no programming until tomorrow's tribe game. Looks like Comcast is set up to me, so I would search channels for whichever cable you have to find out for sure.
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Unread postby swerb » Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:03 am

Tribe comes out swingin this morning. Full page color ad opposite Roger Brown on page 3 of the PD Sports Page.

They list all the Indians games on this week, their web address, and a nice big note at the bottom reminding you to "Call your local cable provider and ASK FOR IT!!!!"
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Unread postby pup » Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:48 pm

Just got off the phone with comcast. They do not have the channel as of today and they do not know if they will be getting it or not. They are currently in negotiations for the channel.

This is bullshit. The Indians have me completely pissed off right now! It appears to me that they are asking the cable companies to overpay for the rights to this channel. To get this done, they are asking for the fans to call the cable companies and complain about not getting the channel. This channel will be putting more money into Larry "Cheap Ass" Dolan's pockets. Yet, he has not shown the fans that he will reinvest that money into the team. I think we would be better off calling the Indians and asking them to lower their asking price for the channel so we can all watch them instead of calling the cable companies.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:15 am

Pup wrote:Just got off the phone with comcast. They do not have the channel as of today and they do not know if they will be getting it or not. They are currently in negotiations for the channel.


According to a radio report, Comcast and Adelphia are setup....but the games may not air until the season opener. Just as an FYI, I was perusing some other boards and apparantly some Comcast subscribers DID get to see the game on Channel 73 yesterday. Not sure why it was hit and miss for some.....location?

This is bullshit. The Indians have me completely pissed off right now! It appears to me that they are asking the cable companies to overpay for the rights to this channel. To get this done, they are asking for the fans to call the cable companies and complain about not getting the channel. This channel will be putting more money into Larry "Cheap Ass" Dolan's pockets. Yet, he has not shown the fans that he will reinvest that money into the team. I think we would be better off calling the Indians and asking them to lower their asking price for the channel so we can all watch them instead of calling the cable companies.


I believe what the Indians are doing, from what I have read, is not out of line. The Red Sox and Yankees did the same thing, which is why their networks are so successful.

Anyway, the Indians need to hold their ground. They can't have this TV deal go capute, because if it does, then we could be in some trouble I would guess financially. I am not too upset to miss the ST games (would have loved to have seen them), but as long as I am not interrupted with my regular season games, I am fine. If I miss several games to start the season I'll join you on your witchhunt.

This channel will be putting more money into Larry "Cheap Ass" Dolan's pockets. Yet, he has not shown the fans that he will reinvest that money into the team.


I guess signing Peralta to a locked in long-term deal doesn't count, nor the looming Sizemore and Lee signings. Or, the Paul Byrd signing from this offseason. We weren't offering multi-year, multi-million deals prior to April last year. Prior to the CC, Victor and Hafner signings in April 05, the last multi-year and multi-million deal was Lawton, Wickman, Sabathia and Gutierrez in Nov/Dec 01.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:19 pm

Just an FYI, per an email with Liberatore shared on the Moohead radio show:

http://www.mooheadradio.com/archives/wednesday.mp3

Adelphia, Comcast, and Buckeye ARE DONE DEALS. Also, Cox will join that list very soon.

DirecTV and Dish are hanging back to see what is happening first.....and the only cable outlet that is passing on the new Indians station at this time is Columbus Insight.

Moohead reads the email right at the start of the show (after the 5 minute song intro).
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Unread postby pup » Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:29 pm

Consig. - It is great that they are resigning their core guys, but until I see Dolan pay to bring someone in that will be a difference maker, I am not impressed. Again, they just seem to always come in 2nd when it comes to acquring players, and I think that is part of the plan. They have become very good at offering just enough to be able to tell the fans they tried, but not bringing anyone in.

The only reason they sign Peralta, Lee, Sizemore, and Victor to these deals is they don't have the choice. They will all be priced under what they would get from arbritration when it comes time. And once you get close enough to arbritation, there is no reason for the player to sign long term ,so you get it done now. We all know that very few, if any, of these guys will be here past their current deals, which is sad.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:32 pm

Adelphia officially signs today. Press release will be released tonight or tomorrow.

The STO site says the deal is signed:

SportsTime Ohio is available to a majority of cable subscribers in the Cleveland area. Those subscribers include all Time Warner Cable customers along with Adelphia, Buckeye CableSystem, BTC Multimedia, Doylestown Cable TV, City of Wadsworth, RTEC Communications and TSC Communications.


Channel number is coming soon. Game tonight may be on, but according to Liberatore the next one will definitely be aired.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:01 pm

Pup wrote:Consig. - It is great that they are resigning their core guys, but until I see Dolan pay to bring someone in that will be a difference maker, I am not impressed.


You act as if there is a precedent for this. In reality, when have we ever brought in a difference maker...even in the 90s? Alomar was the closest and really only thing, yet he came on the cheap and turned down better deals elsewhere to play here with a winner and his brother.

We will NEVER sign a difference maker in FA. They are going to be complimentary pieces, of the Eddie Murray and Ellis Burks ilk.

Again, they just seem to always come in 2nd when it comes to acquring players, and I think that is part of the plan. They have become very good at offering just enough to be able to tell the fans they tried, but not bringing anyone in.


I've heard this argument many times, and it is total BS. Sorry, but you are giving the Indians WAY too much credit for being that smart to know the exact amount to make a player teeter your offer with another team and for us to come in 2nd. Bottom line, we were in the final running for Thome and Ramirez, and lost out. We had guys like Nomar and Hoffman debating all day going back and forth on their decisions......this argument just doesn't fly with me. Not at all.

The only reason they sign Peralta, Lee, Sizemore, and Victor to these deals is they don't have the choice. They will all be priced under what they would get from arbritration when it comes time.


They do have a choice. They can hold out for arbitration. If Peralta and company continue to get better, they could command tons more in arby. But, players take the security and the owners take the risk they won't get hurt. I mean, the Indians have been lucky with these types of deals in the past, but a lot of these types of deals for other teams go the other way too. Jaret Wright was one that didn't workout for us when we signed him longterm to avoid arby.

And once you get close enough to arbritation, there is no reason for the player to sign long term ,so you get it done now. We all know that very few, if any, of these guys will be here past their current deals, which is sad.


Sabathia's long-term deal expired last year......the Indians had an option on him for this year. They got him to resign and extend even though his prior long-term contract he signed to avoid arby was about to expire. I don't think a 3 year $25M extension is anything to ignore.

We'll see with the others, it is not likely we keep all of them when they become FAs in 5-6 years. That's a long time from now so I ain't sweating it. But, a high majority will leave, just as they have in the past.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:06 pm

He just aired Jim Leberatore's voice mail. here is the channel lineup:

Cleveland area: Channel 17
Ashtabula area: Channel 30
Lorain area: Channel 23
Macedonia area: Channel 97
Port Clinton area: Channel 17

Liberatore says they are working dilligently to get the game on tonight, 80% sure it will be.

Also, Comcast is next up and almost done.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:43 pm

Consigliere wrote:I've heard this argument many times, and it is total BS. Sorry, but you are giving the Indians WAY too much credit for being that smart to know the exact amount to make a player teeter your offer with another team and for us to come in 2nd. Bottom line, we were in the final running for Thome and Ramirez, and lost out. We had guys like Nomar and Hoffman debating all day going back and forth on their decisions......this argument just doesn't fly with me. Not at all.



How is that too much credit? You don't think they have at least a pretty good idea of what other teams are going to offer, or have already offered? Would we be better with Nomar and Hoffman than Perez and Wickman? Absolutely. So pony up a couple more dollars and get it done. I am not looking for them to be in Carlos Beltran type signings. I consider Nomar and Hoffman in the Eddie Murray/Ellis Burks category.

They do have a choice. They can hold out for arbitration. If Peralta and company continue to get better, they could command tons more in arby. But, players take the security and the owners take the risk they won't get hurt.


That is what I mean by they don't have a choice. If they wait for arbritation, the Tribe will get killed. For the player it is a no brainer. Their real $$$ contracts will come in 5/6 years, but instead of making "chump change" they get paid pretty good and have to wait for the big contract an extra couple seasons.

We'll see with the others, it is not likely we keep all of them when they become FAs in 5-6 years. That's a long time from now so I ain't sweating it. But, a high majority will leave, just as they have in the past


Which is why you cannot pass on any oppurtunity to improve every off-season. They have a 5 year window for arguments sake. I am counting last year, since that is the first of the long term deals. 4 left. Did they get better this year? Debatable. Let's say they are even. Even is not good enough to win the ring. Now we are down to 3 years. When will they do something? Are the kids we have yet to see good enough to fill in gaps we currently have? Possibly. Hopefully. If not, will anything get done to improve this team? Doubtfully. They get the benefit of the doubt right now because of the job Shapiro has done loading this organization with talent, but with the talent on hand, they should have taken the chance to bring in some veteran talent to support what is here.

You are talking to one of the few people on this board who would take a World Series ring over a Super Bowl and that is why I am critical of the ownership.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:20 pm

Liberatore was just on More Sports and Les Levine. STO is now on in all Adelphia markets. I checked, and yep, I have STO and the game is on channel 17 tonight (they are showing highlights from 2005 right now).

Of note, Liberatore mentioned the Time Warner-Adelphia-Comcast merger may not happen until at least August.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:00 am

Pup wrote:How is that too much credit? You don't think they have at least a pretty good idea of what other teams are going to offer, or have already offered? Would we be better with Nomar and Hoffman than Perez and Wickman? Absolutely. So pony up a couple more dollars and get it done. I am not looking for them to be in Carlos Beltran type signings. I consider Nomar and Hoffman in the Eddie Murray/Ellis Burks category.


I had a hard on for Hoffman and wanted him bad. We were offering like $2-3M more a year and an extra year....how much more should we have offered? This thing came down to the wire with him, and he was torn both ways.....we didn't offer "just" enough to make it look appear we were trying to sign him. :roll:

:D

Which is why you cannot pass on any oppurtunity to improve every off-season. They have a 5 year window for arguments sake.


I don't look at it as a 5-year window. I look at it as a 3-year window with the current players as in 3 years Sabathia and Hafner are the first that will be eligible for FA. But, the whole point of the org rebuild a few years back was not to have a "window", but to have a continual flow of talent and stagger it so as players ripen and eventually fall of the tree and go elsewhere, new players take their place.

It should no longer be looked at as a window, but a revolving door. At least we hope. :D

They get the benefit of the doubt right now because of the job Shapiro has done loading this organization with talent, but with the talent on hand, they should have taken the chance to bring in some veteran talent to support what is here.


They tried when they went out and attempted to get Hoffman and Nomar. But, this past offseason the FA was very thin.....and for what was available, it was way over-priced and not much better than what we already had.

Shapiro was recently quoted on the subject when asked about adding a player this year midseason:

"We are in a very good position budgetarily. Without a doubt, there remains flexibility within our budget to add a player at some point. We offered some players very large contracts this winter to the magnitude that we didn't the past few years. Obviously, we didn't get them. As a result we just didn't try and go spend that money later on players who weren't there."

"The flexibility is there. We've had ongoing trade conversations about acquiring players that have bigger salaries than what we've had and we will continue to have those conversations, hopefully, about adding those players through July. Short of a contract in the $15 million or $20 million range, I don't see there being a player we look at acquiring where the salary is going to be a prohibitive issue. I think the issue is always going to be which players we may have to give up rather than the money. We definitely have a higher payroll than we had budgeted a year ago and we still have some room to move. That's a position we haven't been in for quite some time."

You are talking to one of the few people on this board who would take a World Series ring over a Super Bowl and that is why I am critical of the ownership.


I'm with you. Of the three teams in this city, I would cherish a World Series victory 100 times more than a Super Bowl win and 1000 more times than an NBA CHamionship. I'd love either, but baseball is my true love. The others are just girlfriend's I have on the side to please me until baseball returns every April. :D
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Unread postby pup » Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:21 am

but to have a continual flow of talent and stagger it so as players ripen and eventually fall of the tree and go elsewhere, new players take their place.

It should no longer be looked at as a window, but a revolving door. At least we hope


That is great. I am all for that plan, except for 2 things:

First, you still need to add pieces through FA to compliment those kids. Some of those pieces are going to require you go above and beyond "what we are comfortable with" to get them. Nomar I could go wither way on, we could get the same or better production from Perez that we would with Nomar at a cheaper price. But there is no reason to not go 4 million "extra" to get Hoffman.

Second, we have done this before. This plan, where we build with youth, then add pieces through trades makes it very hard to maintain adding youth to the roster. You have to give them up to acquire players through trades. When you trade these guys, you have closed the pipeline that provides the revolving door.
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Unread postby rigs » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:29 pm

agree 10000%. In our market, you have to overpay for a free agent, not overpay in a trade.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:12 pm

RIGS wrote:agree 10000%. In our market, you have to overpay for a free agent, not overpay in a trade.
Ball dropped...

I'm sorry, I missed something: when we offered to overpay Hoffman and he said, "No, I will take less to stay in San Diego with my family," who dropped which ball?
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Unread postby pup » Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:31 pm

We don't know what amount it would have taken to get Hoffman, but I am sure there was a number. If we couldn't get to that number then so be it. It is just getting a little old to come in 2nd for the free agents we are going after.

What I am more concerned with is if we end up trading all the kids we have in our farm system. Would 4 mil more to Hoffman save 2 guys on the farm in July?
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:30 pm

RIGS wrote:agree 10000%. In our market, you have to overpay for a free agent, not overpay in a trade.
Ball dropped...


Um, no.

You have it completely backwards.

In the Yankees market, THEY can overpay to get the FAs they want. We can't. All it takes is one horrible signing to set us back.....meanwhile, they can cover the mistake.

In our market, we need to use our farm system to not only provide our A1 talent, but also use that farm system as capital from time to time to overpay for someone that fills a need in a trade.

And Pup, come on man. Hoffman signed a 2 year $13.5M deal with the Padres....we offered 3 years $24M. Roughly $10M more in gauranteed money. So we should have offered 3 years $28M....royughly double the gauranteed money that he got? Yes, there probably was a point where money trumped his hometown, but that point was clearly at the point Shapiro should get his head examined for sheer stupidity.

And Swerb and Buff know I had a hard on for Hoffman....but I think the lengths they went to try and sign him were actually well and above where I wanted them to go.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:32 am

We don't know what amount it would have taken to get Hoffman, but I am sure there was a number. If we couldn't get to that number then so be it.


I did not say they should keep going, I said if we couldn't get to his number then so be it.

I think you are missing Rigs' point. We cannot go crazy and sign the top tier of free agents. What they can do though is overpay for the middle of the road players that are needed to fill in gaps. These middle of the road guys are what will make or break each season. Ronnie Belliard is a great example. He was not a huge signing, but they saw something they liked, went out and got him, and now he is an integral part of this team.

Bottom line is this team again has holes. The biggest being first base, where a guy like Scott Hatteberg, who signes a cheap one year deal with the Reds would be much better than Ben Brousard. Next would be right field, where Rondell White would have been a huge upgrade over Casey Blake. White signes a one year deal with the Twins instead.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:08 am

Pup wrote:Bottom line is this team again has holes.

Yes, I am with you here.
Pup wrote:The biggest being first base, where a guy like Scott Hatteberg, who signes a cheap one year deal with the Reds would be much better than Ben Brousard. Next would be right field, where Rondell White would have been a huge upgrade over Casey Blake. White signes a one year deal with the Twins instead.

Okay, see, here is where we part company. Scott Hatteberg has slugged under .400 (.400!) two of the past three seasons.

2003: .253/.342/.383
2004: .284/.367/.420
2005: .256/.334/.343

That's a pretty crummy middle infielder. Except Hatteberg is a 1B/DH! Good Lord, that stinks! And we're not talking small sample sizes here: 619, 635, 521 PA those three years. His PECOTA projection is .258/.336/.359: Broussard's is .261/.330/.460. Hm ... yes, I'll take the ONE HUNDRED POINTS of slugging, please. You might argue with the accuracy or value of PECOTA, but it's indisputable that Broussard has outperformed Hatteberg each of the last three seasons, and paired with Perez as a platoon, that's a much, much, MUCH better player than Scott Hatteberg. Very bad example.

Rondell White's mean projection: .292 .338 .463
Casey Blake's mean projection: .254 .322 .432

White is a better hitter than Blake. I can't argue that. He would have been a nice little signing as a supramarginal upgrade over Blake. But not a REAL upgrade over Blake, and hasn't played anything like a full season since the tree in my front yard was an acorn. I understand the suggestion, but can't get worked up about it not occurring, either.

I don't know how else to put this: I can't find many players that were available to sign that would have signed for what I considered a "reasonable overpayment." To explain this term, Hoffman would have been a reasonable overpayment at the offer we made: Millwood would not have been at the offer he signed in Texas (in my opinion). Burnett, no. Ryan, no. It was a weak FA crop, and although (again, IMO) Shapiro didn't handle it flawlessly, I don't think he handled it poorly, either. I guess that's what it comes down to: you name the players you would have targeted and the offers you would have made, and I will reconsider. Hatteberg and White, IMO, would not substantially upgrade this team. (FWIW, Hoffman and/or Giles would have)
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:37 am

Pup wrote:
I think you are missing Rigs' point. We cannot go crazy and sign the top tier of free agents. What they can do though is overpay for the middle of the road players that are needed to fill in gaps. These middle of the road guys are what will make or break each season. Ronnie Belliard is a great example. He was not a huge signing, but they saw something they liked, went out and got him, and now he is an integral part of this team.


Why would you overpay for average talent? In other words, let's go out and overpay for Joe Randa or Jacque Jones. No thanks.

And Belliard is a poor example. We signed him as a FA to a one year $1.1M deal. That is a value signing, exactly what this team has done in the past going all the way back to the 90s....and what it must continue to do going forward.

The history of FA signings for the Indians during the Dolan AND Jacob's campaign shows that the FAs we sign generally are value guys, guys we get at a discounted rate. Whether it be the player coming off a down season, a recent injury history, getting up there in age, or the hometown discount, we've always been a team that signed FAs to compliment the stars we grew in-house, and usually those FAs were signed at a bargain price.

The biggest being first base, where a guy like Scott Hatteberg, who signes a cheap one year deal with the Reds would be much better than Ben Brousard.


I understand your hatred for Broussard.....but I just don't understand how anyone can consider Scott Fing Hatteburg as a better option. I have bald patches on my head from pulling out my hair watching Broussard struggle....but if we had Hatteberg I'd be bald.

Right now, I think the combo of Broussard and Perez in a 1B platoon may actually provide above average performance at 1B over 162 games. Their combined numbers should bring in 25 HRs and around 100 RBIs. I'll take it as a stop gap.

We agree on RF. But, this is something that likely isn't going to be addressed until mid-season.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:26 pm

Scott Hatteberg is a much better player. There is more to the game of baseball than batting averages and slugging percentages. Hatteberg will move runners up. He has 1/2 as many stirkeouts in the last 3 years in roughly 300 more at bats. That is huge. Hatteberg has more walks than strikeouts in the last 3 years. Brousard has struck out 268 times versus drawing 116 walks! How many times was Brousard up in an RBI situation and he struck out swinging at a ball out of the zone? Those are huge runs when you consider the Tribe's record in one run games. Here are some numbers:

Men in scoring position:
Hatteberg .313 BA
Brousard .224 BA

Man on 3rd, <2 outs:
Hatteberg .280
Brousard .174

Men in scoring position, 2 outs:
Hatteberg .289
Brousard .250
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:55 pm

Pup wrote:Scott Hatteberg is a much better player.

No. He's a poor hitter. There's simply no way to spin that.

Player X: .246 .306 .346
Scott Hatteberg: .256/.334/.343

Hey, Hatteberg is a bit better at walking, but not quite as powerful ... as MAICER IZTURIS! For Pete's sake, that's not hitting, it's poking.
Pup wrote:Here are some numbers:

Men in scoring position:
Hatteberg .313 BA
Brousard .224 BA

Man on 3rd, <2 outs:
Hatteberg .280
Brousard .174

Men in scoring position, 2 outs:
Hatteberg .289
Brousard .250

Now this is interesting. Those are nice numbers! I guess the fact that he hit like .220 with men not in scoring position is okay with you, but hey, the fact is, these numbers show Hatteberg to have been a much better situational hitter than Broussard in 2005. (ESPN won't format its "splits" for me, and I can't find these numbers elsewhere: are they consistent over time?)

I wonder, though: is a hit from Hatteberg as productive as a hit from Broussard?

RBI Opportunity Success Rate (from BP):

2003: Hatteberg .1332, Broussard .1455
2004: Hatteberg .1551, Broussard .1958
2005: Hatteberg .1481, Broussard .1494

I'd say, "No."

FWIW, I'd rather have Ben in the field than Scott as well.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:54 pm

Yes those numbers are pretty close to 3 year averages for each guy.

We are stuck with an offensive liability at first base until Darko is ready or V-Mart is moved there (sorry Tony :lol: ).

I really wish we were not even having this discussion right now because I don't want Scott Hatteberg either, but I do think he is an upgrade over Brousard. Hatteberg's numbers are better when he plays 1B than his overall numbers. His time at DH over the last couple of years has been awful.

I don't think Brousard's power is enough of a positive to offset his terrible plate discipline. Strikeouts kill innings. Walks prolong innings. Strikeouts build the confidence of opposing pitchers. Walks put pitchers into panic mode and get you into bullpens earlier.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:00 pm

Pup wrote:Yes those numbers are pretty close to 3 year averages for each guy.

Cool, thanks.
Pup wrote:I don't think Brousard's power is enough of a positive to offset his terrible plate discipline. Strikeouts kill innings. Walks prolong innings. Strikeouts build the confidence of opposing pitchers. Walks put pitchers into panic mode and get you into bullpens earlier.

I like that, that's well put. And I'm certainly a plate discipline disciple (hence my fascination with Craig Wilson and Brian Giles and such), so I agree that Broussard's power alone won't make him Good. I'll reserve judgement on the platoon, though, since Broussard really does hit righties better than lefties.

Even with the holes, we were right at the top of the AL in runs scored, though. I'm more concerned about preventing them this season. (The Twins don't score, and the ChiSox aren't so good at it, either.)

Nice discussion, BTW.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:00 pm

FWIW, I'd rather have Ben in the field than Scott as well.




They both have around the same fielding percentage. I would think Brousard probably has slightly better range and may be better at "picking em" out of the dirt. However, I don't think defense for these two really factors into the equation. Neither will win a gold glove, but neither will kill you.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:08 pm

Never really commented on it at the time you posted this originaly, but I agree with Craig Wilson. I think that is why a team like the Pirates continue to struggle. They get infatuated with a name (Daryl Ward) and lose sight on what it takes to win (Craig Wilson)

Nice discussion, BTW.


Thanks. Ditto!
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Unread postby swerb » Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:36 am

Direct TV inked ... they will have todays game on.
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Unread postby TatDawg » Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:52 pm

Five games into the season and I now can't watch STO with paying extra for the channel. WTF? Time for me to dump DirecTV. I am just fed up. The whole STO thing is just bullshit.

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Unread postby Beanpot » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:01 pm

TatDawg wrote:Five games into the season and I now can't watch STO with paying extra for the channel. WTF? Time for me to dump DirecTV. I am just fed up. The whole STO thing is just bullshit.


Just out of curiosity, how much extra are we talking about? Is the general consensus that this STO thing is a clusterfrag?
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Unread postby swerb » Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:56 pm

TatDawg wrote:Five games into the season and I now can't watch STO with paying extra for the channel. WTF? Time for me to dump DirecTV. I am just fed up. The whole STO thing is just bullshit.

TatDawg


Tat, didn't DirectTV cut the deal with STO?

They trying to shake you down for the $159 for the MLB package?
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Unread postby TatDawg » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:43 pm

Just out of curiosity, how much extra are we talking about? Is the general consensus that this STO thing is a clusterfrag?



Tat, didn't DirectTV cut the deal with STO?

They trying to shake you down for the $159 for the MLB package?



Yes that was just what they were doing. Why should I have to buy the MLB package when I can drive to the Jake in about 15 min. on a good day?

I went off on them on Sat. and again yesterday. The woman I talked to yesterday said they were only offering STO as part of the base package to people living closer to Cleveland. WTF?!? I told her if I lived any closer to Cleveland, I would be watching the friggin game out of my window. They finally fixed the problem. We will see if it works again on Tues. for the Seattle game. I'm not counting on it. I miss FSO. What a nightmare.

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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:07 pm

Roger Brown chimes in....

http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plainde ... xml&coll=2

DirecTV snafu irks Indians fans
Monday, April 10, 2006
Roger Brown
Plain Dealer Columnist

DirecTV was the last major out let to agree to carry Sports Time Ohio, the Indians' regional network, and the satellite TV provider is doing a poor job convincing folks it actually wants to carry STO.

SportsTime Ohio President Jim Liberatore said both STO and DirecTV were swamped this past weekend with calls from numerous area DirecTV subscribers, angry because they could not see the Indians-Twins telecasts on Saturday and Sunday.

Adding fuel to the anger of viewers: They received no warning from DirecTV that they would miss the scheduled games, just days after seeing two other Indians games aired by SportsTime Ohio.

"I know we got hundreds of calls and I understand DirecTV got 2,000 or more," Liberatore said Sunday. He said DirecTV "is having some significant activation issues" as it tries to add STO to the programming list of every subscriber who should receive the network.

"It hasn't been able to figure out what to do," Liberatore said of DirecTV. "This is clearly a DirecTV problem, but that makes it our problem, too. We're doing our best to get DirecTV to straighten everything out."

DirecTV officials couldn't be reached for comment Sunday. DirecTV has several-hundred-thousand subscribers in Northern Ohio.

And how ridiculous has the DirecTV mess become? One subscriber has received every Indians telecast so far, while a relative - a fellow subscriber living three blocks away and in the same zip code - couldn't see the games.
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