Hey JB: Bob Stoops is Kurt Schottenheimer in Big Games

[peeker643]

I won't even sully Marty's good name by associating him with Ofer Five Stoops.

[jb]

Again, you are just tweaking yourself by missing the point, Peeks. The compasrison isn't the outcomes, it is about the strategic game prep and game management and tactical game night decisions. But nuance isn't what I'd expect from a country music fan.

To some degree I think Stoops went conservative, but not nearly as much as tSV. Much like tSV in 2007, his team was more exposed than anything else. I mean, the mental side of being ready to play was a complete joke as their heads were so big they couldn't fit through the tunnel and that's on tSV, and the D scheme was horrific, but they were housed so handily it was impossible to say the game was coached & played tight. In 08 and 09 , tSV's butt was so tight it was water safe down to 2 miles below surface. He taught the PhD level course in the RAC school of confusing settling for FG's with actual offensive production.

In fact, if you can't watch how an aggressive offensive mind like Meyer uses Tebow and crew and what he / they CAN do well, compared to how tSV tucks in his tail and repeatedly gets big game tight sphincter syndrome w/ Pryor (though the injury excuse holds water with me) and company , then I can't help you and frankly, you have devoed into just making Soul Dawg Tim Couch posts to me. We can have some laughs, no hard feelings, but I can't take you seriously. You knee jerk and spew that insode the I 270 beltway mentality dogma that winning Big 10 games means anything anymore and don't think critically. Jumpin' Jesus, even Bud Sahw understood it in his column yesterday, and he's an EEG flatliner. Just as tSV doesn't seem to understand that this level is different from D 1 AA / FCS , you won't even entertain real discussion.

I will say that it is as most of us said with the Big 12 this season. They are simply not that athletically talented. All 3 of their offesnses were gimmicky, precison schemes that were very well coached, but certainly when they actually had to play some defenses they were exposed as such. It is all Mouse Davis at Houston to me. It be be intertesring as an exercize to calc out the point differential betweem TT, OU and UT's RS averegare and combined bowl game points scored.

Do they play the real championship this Saturday when Utah meets USC in Vegas?

[peeker643]

Again, you are just tweaking yourself by missing the point, Peeks. The compasrison isn't the outcomes, it is about the strategic game prep and game management and tactical game night decisions. But nuance isn't what I'd expect from a country music fan.

To some degree I think Stoops went conservative, but not nearly as much as tSV. Much like tSV in 2007, his team was more exposed than anything else. I mean, the mental side of being ready to play was a complete joke as their heads were so big they couldn't fit through the tunnel and that's on tSV, and the D scheme was horrific, but they were housed so handily it was impossible to say the game was coached & played tight. In 08 and 09 , tSV's butt was so tight it was water safe down to 2 miles below surface. He taught the PhD level course in the RAC school of confusing settling for FG's with actual offensive production.

In fact, if you can't watch how an aggressive offensive mind like Meyer uses Tebow and crew and what he / they CAN do well, compared to how tSV tucks in his tail and repeatedly gets big game tight sphincter syndrome w/ Pryor (though the injury excuse holds water with me) and company , then I can't help you and frankly, you have devoed into just making Soul Dawg Tim Couch posts to me. We can have some laughs, no hard feelings, but I can't take you seriously. You knee jerk and spew that insode the I 270 beltway mentality dogma that winning Big 10 games means anything anymore and don't think critically. Jumpin' Jesus, even Bud Sahw understood it in his column yesterday, and he's an EEG flatliner. Just as tSV doesn't seem to understand that this level is different from D 1 AA / FCS , you won't even entertain real discussion.

I will say that it is as most of us said with the Big 12 this season. They are simply not that athletically talented. All 3 of their offesnses were gimmicky, precison schemes that were very well coached, but certainly when they actually had to play some defenses they were exposed as such. It is all Mouse Davis at Houston to me. It be be intertesring as an exercize to calc out the point differential betweem TT, OU and UT's RS averegare and combined bowl game points scored.

Do they play the real championship this Saturday when Utah meets USC in Vegas?

You still haven't told me, despite my asking nicely , who you suggest as Tressel's replacement since he's clearly incapable of winning more than 1 of 3 NCGs he gets too.

We agree on a lot of what you said above, i.e the need to develop and and build an offense based on the skills and talents of the players you recruit.

This isn't beltway spew, it's a larger picture than what you're painting. You're confusing me and Big10 games with NCG games. I take no pride in the Buckeyes winning against the mediocre Big10 teams (other than one admittedly). But you come down to an age old argument about whether you want a guy who can and has recruited and coached kids to reach the penultimate college football game (and win one) versus bringing in someone else to do ...... what?

You used the Marty analogy. I understand what you're saying, I really do. But you discount completely the fact that they built a team that would get to the important games and they did it repeatedly. There's a ton of value in what they did, do and how they did it. IMO you're overlooking every bit of that and you're not offering any solutions, much less viable ones. To say that these guys simply need to change how they go about doing things is a bit nebulous. Tell me about how/who.

We all recognize the problems much as we do with the economy, government, foreign policy issues and hip hop industry stars being unable to avoid bullets, drugs and 14 yr old girls. But what's your answer? I understand Tressel is tighter than a frog's ass JB. And that it clearly affects the team. But what do you do about and how keeping in mind that he does have a great deal of value to the program.

Who do you want leading Carmen Ohio and should the administration mandate that the guys standing next to him be someone other than the guys currently there?

[jb]

Again, you are just tweaking yourself by missing the point, Peeks. The compasrison isn't the outcomes, it is about the strategic game prep and game management and tactical game night decisions. But nuance isn't what I'd expect from a country music fan.

To some degree I think Stoops went conservative, but not nearly as much as tSV. Much like tSV in 2007, his team was more exposed than anything else. I mean, the mental side of being ready to play was a complete joke as their heads were so big they couldn't fit through the tunnel and that's on tSV, and the D scheme was horrific, but they were housed so handily it was impossible to say the game was coached & played tight. In 08 and 09 , tSV's butt was so tight it was water safe down to 2 miles below surface. He taught the PhD level course in the RAC school of confusing settling for FG's with actual offensive production.

In fact, if you can't watch how an aggressive offensive mind like Meyer uses Tebow and crew and what he / they CAN do well, compared to how tSV tucks in his tail and repeatedly gets big game tight sphincter syndrome w/ Pryor (though the injury excuse holds water with me) and company , then I can't help you and frankly, you have devoed into just making Soul Dawg Tim Couch posts to me. We can have some laughs, no hard feelings, but I can't take you seriously. You knee jerk and spew that insode the I 270 beltway mentality dogma that winning Big 10 games means anything anymore and don't think critically. Jumpin' Jesus, even Bud Sahw understood it in his column yesterday, and he's an EEG flatliner. Just as tSV doesn't seem to understand that this level is different from D 1 AA / FCS , you won't even entertain real discussion.

I will say that it is as most of us said with the Big 12 this season. They are simply not that athletically talented. All 3 of their offesnses were gimmicky, precison schemes that were very well coached, but certainly when they actually had to play some defenses they were exposed as such. It is all Mouse Davis at Houston to me. It be be intertesring as an exercize to calc out the point differential betweem TT, OU and UT's RS averegare and combined bowl game points scored.

Do they play the real championship this Saturday when Utah meets USC in Vegas?

You still haven't told me, despite my asking nicely , who you suggest as Tressel's replacement since he's clearly incapable of winning more than 1 of 3 NCGs he gets too.

We agree on a lot of what you said above, i.e the need to develop and and build an offense based on the skills and talents of the players you recruit.

This isn't beltway spew, it's a larger picture than what you're painting. You're confusing me and Big10 games with NCG games. I take no pride in the Buckeyes winning against the mediocre Big10 teams (other than one admittedly). But you come down to an age old argument about whether you want a guy who can and has recruited and coached kids to reach the penultimate college football game (and win one) versus bringing in someone else to do ...... what?

You used the Marty analogy. I understand what you're saying, I really do. But you discount completely the fact that they built a team that would get to the important games and they did it repeatedly. There's a ton of value in what they did, do and how they did it. IMO you're overlooking every bit of that and you're not offering any solutions, much less viable ones. To say that these guys simply need to change how they go about doing things is a bit nebulous. Tell me about how/who.

We all recognize the problems much as we do with the economy, government, foreign policy issues and hip hop industry stars being unable to avoid bullets, drugs and 14 yr old girls. But what's your answer? I understand Tressel is tighter than a frog's ass JB. And that it clearly affects the team. But what do you do about and how keeping in mind that he does have a great deal of value to the program.

Who do you want leading Carmen Ohio and should the administration mandate that the guys standing next to him be someone other than the guys currently there?

That's not the point, although I knew I could prod you can to the land of the living.

t OSU is a legacy program. They can have their pick of men. Then can do at least as well as some D 1AA / FCS guy stuck in 1985 X's and O's. They will always have talent if they have a recruiter as good as Coop or t SV . Low bar to get over.

You want to play this hypathetical game of throwing names, unable to substantiate what is and isn't possible?

How about that Ohio kid from Ashtablua ?

[peeker643]

That's not the point, although I knew I could prod you can to the land of the living.

t OSU is a legacy program. They can have their pick of men. Then can do at least as well as some D 1AA / FCS guy stuck in 1985 X's and O's. They will always have talent if they have a recruiter as good as Coop or t SV . Low bar to get over.

You want to play this hypathetical game of throwing names, unable to substantiate what is and isn't possible?

How about that Ohio kid from Ashtablua ?

JB- It's been a legacy program for a long time. And they have had their pick of men who had only to jump over a low bar. And they hired Cooper.

If you want to make a change and you can go get me Urban Meyer then get it done. But there are quite a few legacy programs out there and there is one urban Meyer. You guarantee me Meyer and we're good to go. You hire someone who is the 'next' Meyer and get rid of a guy who's won one NCG and played in three straight BCS games (2 of them NCG) and we have big, BIG problems.

Bottom line, I'm good with what we have in Columbus. Not in any way because of the Big10 wins (except the obvious).There were people here yesterday who would have traded Tressel for Stoops. They will not be appearing in this thread today. There's always the demand for something different and something better when the truth is it may just not be out there.

Your lady may love every single thing about you except your music slant (and rightly so). If she can't get past Lil Wayne blaring from the speakers maybe she leaves looking for a guy with all of your obvious charms and attributes but who digs Merle. Maybe that guy's out there. But she'll probably go through a lot of rotten relationships looking for him before she finds him. If she ever does.

[jb]

Bottom line, I'm good with what we have in Columbus.

Yep. You sure are. And that's the crux.

Back to our corner men until the next round, buddie.

Gawd I hate Lil Wayne the way you must Keith Urban. I don't even consider him real hip-hop. He's a pop star. I wish Nas would kick him in the nuts.

[peeker643]

Bottom line, I'm good with what we have in Columbus.

Yep. You sure are. And that's the crux.

Back to our corner men until the next round, buddie.

Gawd I hate Lil Wayne the way you must Keith Urban. I don't even consider him real hip-hop. He's a pop star. I wish Nas would kick him in the nuts.

I'm weird that way. I'll take the Cadillac in front of me as opposed to what might be behind door #1.

[Lubber]

Bottom line, I'm good with what we have in Columbus.

Yep. You sure are. And that's the crux.

So you are not good with what we have in Columbus. ? PLEASE tell us whom you would choose. Urban would be the only other guy right now I would take in a heartbeat. Stoops? - no Way, 0-5 cant beat WV or Boise.... Saban? - Cant beat Utah, and can't stay with one program....... Les Miles? - Nope..... Pete Carroll?...... Maybe.. but he loses to shit teams each year...

Bottom line, Jimmy T wins. Sorry that he is not all hip and in with the new spread offensive ways and going for it all the time on 4th down. However, look what happened to OU last night when Stoopy went for it on 4th and goal. Huge turning point in my opinion.

So, until you can reveal your replacement for Jimmy T., please stop posting your nonsense. You ever think that one of the reasons he beats Michigan each year on the field, is because each year he beats them in recruitment. No longer are Ohio boys (Des Howard, Elvis, Woodson, Koselar., etc) going to the Big House.

[jb]

So you are not good with what we have in Columbus.

No, this is John Cooper all over again.

Inside 270 fan keeps telling me how good I have it, and I keep seeing what is essentially bad coaching.

Bottom line, Jimmy T wins.

Les Steckle could "win" at tOSU.

Sorry that he is not all hip and in with the new spread offensive ways and going for it all the time on 4th down.

He's not all that "hip" on execution & smart football, either, as far as I can see. But as you say, he's not hip on offensive scheme that's evolved since 1985.

So, until you can reveal your replacement for Jimmy T., please stop posting your nonsense.

Not the point at all. Don't post angry.

You ever think that one of the reasons he beats Michigan each year on the field, is because each year he beats them in recruitment.

Grunge. A budget surplus. SUV's. Michigan being the measure of anything.

All things that are from the 1990's that are now irrelevant.

What about 11 cavemen beng able to beat Michigan doesn't Inside I270 fan understand?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

No, this is John Cooper all over again.

Inside 270 fan keeps telling me how good I have it, and I keep seeing what is essentially bad coaching.

John Cooper? How many times did he beat Michigan? How many NTs, or even NT games did he get us to?

I will agree Tress needs to modernize his Offense and bring in a solid D Cordinator. Blitzing in the last 20 seconds of game when an underneath route can kill you is ludacris.

[jb]

No, this is John Cooper all over again.

Inside 270 fan keeps telling me how good I have it, and I keep seeing what is essentially bad coaching.

John Cooper? How many times did he beat Michigan? How many NTs, or even NT games did he get us to?

I will agree Tress needs to modernize his Offense and bring in a solid D Cordinator. Blitzing in the last 20 seconds of game when an underneath route can kill you is ludacris.

Grunge. A budget surplus. SUV's. Michigan being the measure of anything.

All things that are from the 1990's that are now irrelevant.

What about 11 cavemen beng able to beat Michigan doesn't Inside I270 fan understand?

tSV runs the O in reality. He'll hire an OC when you can pry it from his cold dead hands.

He'll neve fire his Ytown buddy Heacock, either.

And because he's been made a demi-god immune to criticism, he won't need to.

[FUDU]

I'll agree that there is little satisfaction in beating michigan teams today as opposed to the 90's or early 2000's, in the sense that we are not beating a good team (but it is still a big deal in that it is our arch rival).

But cmon JB, JT is ALL about execution, execution won him the NC against the second most talented team of the decade.

[jb]

I'll agree that there is little satisfaction in beating michigan teams today as opposed to the 90's or early 2000's, in the sense that we are not beating a good team (but it is still a big deal in that it is our arch rival).

But cmon JB, JT is ALL about execution, execution won him the NC against the second most talented team of the decade.

I gnow peeps think I am being difficult to be difficult and just be a big throbbing member, but is there any sort of statute of limitations to 2002?

4th and 1 vs Purdue

Phantom call

Magahee's knee changing momentum.

Luck

Now the D under D'Antonio played out their minds that night, but tOSU 's O has always been backwards ass except for Troy & Ginn & Gonzo's SR year until they had to play a top flight opponant. The team has played dumb ball as of late. There were reports of locker room discipline breakdowns vs LSU at half-time.

tSV is a fantastic recruiter. I don't undervalue that. Really. But tell me he's a decent game day coach and has an X's and O's mind worth anything at all. Really folks? Really?

But all I get is foot stomping of YEAH WELL WHO ELSE DO YOU WANT ?!?!?!

Well, shit homies, who else can we say is on a level talent plane to get an equal look?

WTF do you think a Mike Leach could do with t OSU's talent and a great D coodinator, for example. Pinkel. Mangini. None of us know. What's the point?

I believe that JT is a top shelf recruiter and articulates a program as well as anybody. He's amazing.

But if you think he's gotten the most out of his talent in the past 2 - 3 seasons , his staff develops it fully, and does a good coaching job as de facto OC at game management , yer all nuts. You refuse to believe your objective eyes. They can do better.

Oh, and CDT, OU lost the game on that int fluke before half time and Percy Harvin and Tebow making plays and Meyer's O keeping OU's D on it's heels. Game management tactical decisions meant nada.

[FUDU]

I think it is hilarious you call it luck in one instance but laugh at other explanations for losses since.

2003 Fiesta Bowl was all about making the play when you needed to, OSU did that, and did much of the season prior, but it was luck? Yet LSU wasn't lucky that the Buckeyes had a holding penalty on 2nd and goal already up 7-0 7 minutes into the game? USC wasn't lucky the Buckeyes had a TD called back (which would have made it 10-7 OSU in the first half) due to a penalty? I mean cmon luck.

No consistency in your logic there.

I do agree JT hasn't been consistent in taking advantage of his players abilities, but that is a year by year and game by game thing in which execution to his game plan is important. Maybe just maybe the talent he gets isn't as good as he thinks come time to play the season?

Maybe Florida was lucky Ginn got hurt by his own team?

Luck is just the lamest of the lame excuses though.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I think it is hilarious you call it luck in one instance but laugh at other explanations for losses since.

It's because its such a lazy argument. It's so easy to sum up a guy with "He was lucky".

As Peek said I'm gonna take my chances with The Vest. Winning 80% of your games and being a year in year out contender means something to me.

I wanted to see OSU win a NT at somepoint before I died. Tress Delivered.

JB i'm assuming if the Browns had won a SB in 2002 you wouldn't STILL be hanging on that?

It's laughable: When Tress wins he is "lucky". When he losses: He is a terrible coach.

OSU is the only team I root for to make it to the promised land.

[aoxo1]

You seem to be suffering from the same disease as every other college fan: the belief that your team should be winning a lot more championships than they are and that your coach sucks.

Shit. Even the most successful coaches of all time only win a few. Paterno has 2, Bowden has 2, Carrol has 1 (that AP BS doesn't count if they won't count Auburn the next year), Osborne has 3 (BS), Switzer has 3, Bo has 0, Hayes has only 1 unanimous, etc etc etc.

There are too many big time programs with similar resources to expect more than 1 championship every two decades. OSU, UM, PSU, Miami, FSU, UF, UGA, Tenn, Bama, LSU, UT, OU, Nebraska, USC, and ND are all on about an even field as far as resources (I'm guessing). Then throw in the other schools that are capable of rising up for a year or two, and there just aren't a lot of titles to go around.

[FUDU]

You seem to be suffering from the same disease as every other college fan: the belief that your team should be winning a lot more championships than they are and that your coach sucks.

Shit. Even the most successful coaches of all time only win a few. Paterno has 2, Bowden has 2, Carrol has 1 (that AP BS doesn't count if they won't count Auburn the next year), Osborne has 3 (BS), Switzer has 3, Bo has 0, Hayes has only 1 unanimous, etc etc etc.

There are too many big time programs with similar resources to expect more than 1 championship every two decades. OSU, UM, PSU, Miami, FSU, UF, UGA, Tenn, Bama, LSU, UT, OU, Nebraska, USC, and ND are all on about an even field as far as resources (I'm guessing). Then throw in the other schools that are capable of rising up for a year or two, and there just aren't a lot of titles to go around.

I agree and disagree aoxo. With the resources OSU has and a guy like JT at the helm I don't find it unreasonable to expect more than 1 NC every one or two decades. Thing is a lot more goes into it than that and I think that is where JB is missing on this.

Another POV on this years Buckeyes, after controlling a good portion of the game we where beating a team (Texas) until there were :15 seconds left in the game, a team that most felt deserved to be in the NCG.

[mattvan1]

Not really on topic, but this is a good dialogue so I'll throw it in here as opposed to starting a new thread.

Ran into a guy this weekend who played under Cooper '95-'98. He wasn't really banging on Tressel, but thought Cooper was the superior recruiter, something that I guess is pretty much agreed upon. I asked him why and his answer was interesting. Don't know if true or not, but he said that Cooper was born dirt poor and his childhood and army experience made it much easier to relate to underprivilided kids. He said that Tressel doesn't have that same ability, and while getting all a lot of 5 star kids, the depth of Coopers classes was amazing.

Also, he said when Tressel departs, and agreed that it will be on his own terms, Urban Meyer tales that tOSU position without question, if he is available. Said (again, I have no idea if accurate) that Meyer's contract allows him to leave UF for one other position, in Columbus.

[aoxo1]

Not really on topic, but this is a good dialogue so I'll throw it in here as opposed to starting a new thread.

Ran into a guy this weekend who played under Cooper '95-'98. He wasn't really banging on Tressel, but thought Cooper was the superior recruiter, something that I guess is pretty much agreed upon. I asked him why and his answer was interesting. Don't know if true or not, but he said that Cooper was born dirt poor and his childhood and army experience made it much easier to relate to underprivilided kids. He said that Tressel doesn't have that same ability, and while getting all a lot of 5 star kids, the depth of Coopers classes was amazing.

Also, he said when Tressel departs, and agreed that it will be on his own terms, Urban Meyer tales that tOSU position without question, if he is available. Said (again, I have no idea if accurate) that Meyer's contract allows him to leave UF for one other position, in Columbus.

Notre Dame, Ohio State, and Michigan are the three jobs he has said his wife has no veto power over and he can leave for any of them. He would have been at Notre Dame instead of Florida, except he didn't want to have to fly all over the country recruiting when his kids were still at home. Everything I've read says that ND is his ultimate dream job.

[mattvan1]

Not really on topic, but this is a good dialogue so I'll throw it in here as opposed to starting a new thread.

Ran into a guy this weekend who played under Cooper '95-'98. He wasn't really banging on Tressel, but thought Cooper was the superior recruiter, something that I guess is pretty much agreed upon. I asked him why and his answer was interesting. Don't know if true or not, but he said that Cooper was born dirt poor and his childhood and army experience made it much easier to relate to underprivilided kids. He said that Tressel doesn't have that same ability, and while getting all a lot of 5 star kids, the depth of Coopers classes was amazing.

Also, he said when Tressel departs, and agreed that it will be on his own terms, Urban Meyer tales that tOSU position without question, if he is available. Said (again, I have no idea if accurate) that Meyer's contract allows him to leave UF for one other position, in Columbus.

Notre Dame, Ohio State, and Michigan are the three jobs he has said his wife has no veto power over and he can leave for any of them. He would have been at Notre Dame instead of Florida, except he didn't want to have to fly all over the country recruiting when his kids were still at home. Everything I've read says that ND is his ultimate dream job.

Thanks for the correction.

[oberle]

Jumpin' Jesus, even Bud Sahw understood it in his column yesterday, and he's an EEG flatliner. Just as tSV doesn't seem to understand that this level is different from D 1 AA / FCS , you won't even entertain real discussion.

JB, I'd be careful using Bud Shaw to boslter my opinion about ANYTHING.

That all being said, I think Tressel's biggest problem is that when he has more than 2 weeks to prepare for a game, he thinks too much, and outsmarts himself.

I think tOSU would be better off in a playoff system, than one in which the opponent (who generally can use the extra prep time) has four weeks to prepare, and tSOu spends its time outthinking itself.

Of course, this still beats the crap out of Cooper's era; when tOSU had more talent than just about anybody, and couldn't get out of its own way.

Pointing out that Tressel is not the best coach ever, doesn't mean (I think) that you're out there lobbying to replace him.

[jb]

Here's what kills me about message boards, other than pretty much Mattvan, FUDU, and of course Larry Legend.

In two threads, I pretty much lay out that a ) t SV and t OSU play too tightly and conservative in big games, b ) the concept of "really big game" in the Big 10 is dead or dying in that it has national implications, so the maesure of beating a tram that loses to Appaalachian State Toledo and wins 3 games a year isn't the measure of much, and c ) when you look at t OSU's offense except for Smith's SR year, it plays archaic, and well they just don't see that well coached as far as player improvement and execution in the past two seasons.

In reply, I get Inside I 270 belway guys yelling "OH YEAH WELL WHO WOULD YOU WANT ?!?!" which hasn't a thing to do with the discussion (although it is rich that an aggressive program could shitcan a mediocre coach for Urban Meyer) and insisting that the only reason knowledagble fans criticize is a lack of national titles.

If you can loo at the Buckeyes thae past two seasons and say to yourelf, "damn, that is a really well coached ball club as far as X's and O's and player execution and preparation for big games", have at it. I think you're delusional if you can't see room for major improvement, particulalrly on offense.

Peace out.

[jb]

Jumpin' Jesus, even Bud Sahw understood it in his column yesterday, and he's an EEG flatliner. Just as tSV doesn't seem to understand that this level is different from D 1 AA / FCS , you won't even entertain real discussion.

JB, I'd be careful using Bud Shaw to boslter my opinion about ANYTHING.

That all being said, I think Tressel's biggest problem is that when he has more than 2 weeks to prepare for a game, he thinks too much, and outsmarts himself.

I think tOSU would be better off in a playoff system, than one in which the opponent (who generally can use the extra prep time) has four weeks to prepare, and tSOu spends its time outthinking itself.

Of course, this still beats the crap out of Cooper's era; when tOSU had more talent than just about anybody, and couldn't get out of its own way.

Pointing out that Tressel is not the best coach ever, doesn't mean (I think) that you're out there lobbying to replace him.

You may have a very good point.

Or conveserly it may be a matter of the other coaching staffs are that much better at preparation given long prep times?

He doesn't out smart himself.

He gets outsmarted.

[FUDU]

JB I have been thinking about this topic for a few days in my real real life and I can kind of see your point a bit more. Not that I am totally in line with it but I can at least appreciate it and understand it.

First off, yeah michigan smichigan, until they get good again we shouldn't make that big a deal about owning them, outside of being able to party it up with our pals on the day of the Big Game.

IMO I think the controversy is more applicable if it concerns arguing about JT being a better coach or a better recruiter. The talent he brings in just might not be as good as he or we all think? Maybe he recognized this as seasons go on, hence leading him to keep these guys on a leash a bit more?

I still say it comes down to a hand full of plays for these big games but when you are not making those plays year in and year out in those situations then I think it bears wondering why the hell you don't take more chances when they are there.

As a side note there is an article about 09 exceptions on ESPN, for the Buckeyes they expect TP to really blossom and carry the O, so much so they predict (as of right now) TP single handedly beats USC in Columbus, I find a bit funny for now.

[peeker643]

Here's what kills me about message boards, other than pretty much Mattvan, FUDU, and of course Larry Legend.

In two threads, I pretty much lay out that a ) t SV and t OSU play too tightly and conservative in big games, b ) the concept of "really big game" in the Big 10 is dead or dying in that it has national implications, so the maesure of beating a tram that loses to Appaalachian State Toledo and wins 3 games a year isn't the measure of much, and c ) when you look at t OSU's offense except for Smith's SR year, it plays archaic, and well they just don't see that well coached as far as player improvement and execution in the past two seasons.

In reply, I get Inside I 270 belway guys yelling "OH YEAH WELL WHO WOULD YOU WANT ?!?!" which hasn't a thing to do with the discussion (although it is rich that an aggressive program could shitcan a mediocre coach for Urban Meyer) and insisting that the only reason knowledagble fans criticize is a lack of national titles.
If you can loo at the Buckeyes thae past two seasons and say to yourelf, "damn, that is a really well coached ball club as far as X's and O's and player execution and preparation for big games", have at it. I think you're delusional if you can't see room for major improvement, particulalrly on offense.

Peace out.

Might that not be because you refuse to acknowledge that it's all relative? As the saying goes, you can wish in one hand and shit in the other and tell us which one fills up faster.

Simple questions here:

Are you unhappy that tOSU has played in 2 of the 3 last NCGs?
Are you unhappy that they won a NCG in the past 7 years?
Are you unhappy that they have played in 4 straight BCS games?
Are you acknowledging that in T Smith's senior season the offense was 'opened up' to fit his skills?
Do you believe that the tSV had any part of any of the above?

I understand your crush on Meyer. The guy is gold wherever he goes. But where are you going with the Tressel = Marty thing exactly? What's the end game JB? To point out that he needs to open things up? Okay, granted. No arguement. It's all true.

Now what? What's your plan? You've identified the 'problem' and I'm waiting to hear the rest.

[DarNoor]

a ) t SV and t OSU play too tightly and conservative in big games, b ) Peace out.

Me and a friend were talking about this before the Texas game. It does seem that JT gets more conservative in bigger games. I still love JT and what he has done for the program. But, i get frustrated wathing this offense. I sometimes wonder if Ohio State will get the best out of Pryor because of JT's conservative nature.

[hermanfontenot]

a ) t SV and t OSU play too tightly and conservative in big games, b ) Peace out.

Me and a friend were talking about this before the Texas game. It does seem that JT gets more conservative in bigger games.

No he doesn't. He's always conservative. Did you watch the Purdue game or the Ohio U game?

Really, the only big problem I had was with not going for it on 4th-and-2 when it was 3-0 and trying another 50-yard FG. I hated that call. The rest of the time our problem was strictly execution.

[jb]

Here's what kills me about message boards, other than pretty much Mattvan, FUDU, and of course Larry Legend.

In two threads, I pretty much lay out that a ) t SV and t OSU play too tightly and conservative in big games, b ) the concept of "really big game" in the Big 10 is dead or dying in that it has national implications, so the maesure of beating a tram that loses to Appaalachian State Toledo and wins 3 games a year isn't the measure of much, and c ) when you look at t OSU's offense except for Smith's SR year, it plays archaic, and well they just don't see that well coached as far as player improvement and execution in the past two seasons.

In reply, I get Inside I 270 belway guys yelling "OH YEAH WELL WHO WOULD YOU WANT ?!?!" which hasn't a thing to do with the discussion (although it is rich that an aggressive program could shitcan a mediocre coach for Urban Meyer) and insisting that the only reason knowledagble fans criticize is a lack of national titles.
If you can loo at the Buckeyes thae past two seasons and say to yourelf, "damn, that is a really well coached ball club as far as X's and O's and player execution and preparation for big games", have at it. I think you're delusional if you can't see room for major improvement, particulalrly on offense.

Peace out.

Might that not be because you refuse to acknowledge that it's all relative? As the saying goes, you can wish in one hand and shit in the other and tell us which one fills up faster.

Simple questions here:

Are you unhappy that tOSU has played in 2 of the 3 last NCGs?
Are you unhappy that they won a NCG in the past 7 years?
Are you unhappy that they have played in 4 straight BCS games?
Are you acknowledging that in T Smith's senior season the offense was 'opened up' to fit his skills?
Do you believe that the tSV had any part of any of the above?

I understand your crush on Meyer. The guy is gold wherever he goes. But where are you going with the Tressel = Marty thing exactly? What's the end game JB? To point out that he needs to open things up? Okay, granted. No arguement. It's all true.

Now what? What's your plan? You've identified the 'problem' and I'm waiting to hear the rest.

I am more into relativity than Ayn-steen; and maybe even Oberle. I don't do simple questions. Ain't got a simple mind.


No, not your agenda; mine. Start another thread on JT replacements if you wish. i suppose Meyer might prsent another option, but who am I?

Good coaching job or not?

Did Boone or Wells or Boekman or Laurinitas or Biske or Freeman or Checkwa or Hartline or Nichol or anyone else get any better for the experience or coaching, for example?

Is a 1985 I attack what works in 2008?

Do all the fun-duh-mentals work with all the errors?

You seriously think the jenk efforts that pass for getting outcoached so badly by Meyer and Myles and for Vishnu's sake Mack Cooper make for a decent big game coach?

Period.

That's what evaluates a good coaching job. A coaches' task; not results, for freak's sake.

There's always a dozen FCS / D1 AA coaches in the wings. Got one, you could get another from Northern Iowa.

God bless D'Antonio's D. Coop's recruits, and the Covict.

JT got to be a ramora looking intense.

Peace out yerseld, my brotha.

You still my ace.

Just konfused.

[peeker643]

Here's what kills me about message boards, other than pretty much Mattvan, FUDU, and of course Larry Legend.

In two threads, I pretty much lay out that a ) t SV and t OSU play too tightly and conservative in big games, b ) the concept of "really big game" in the Big 10 is dead or dying in that it has national implications, so the maesure of beating a tram that loses to Appaalachian State Toledo and wins 3 games a year isn't the measure of much, and c ) when you look at t OSU's offense except for Smith's SR year, it plays archaic, and well they just don't see that well coached as far as player improvement and execution in the past two seasons.

In reply, I get Inside I 270 belway guys yelling "OH YEAH WELL WHO WOULD YOU WANT ?!?!" which hasn't a thing to do with the discussion (although it is rich that an aggressive program could shitcan a mediocre coach for Urban Meyer) and insisting that the only reason knowledagble fans criticize is a lack of national titles.
If you can loo at the Buckeyes thae past two seasons and say to yourelf, "damn, that is a really well coached ball club as far as X's and O's and player execution and preparation for big games", have at it. I think you're delusional if you can't see room for major improvement, particulalrly on offense.

Peace out.

Might that not be because you refuse to acknowledge that it's all relative? As the saying goes, you can wish in one hand and shit in the other and tell us which one fills up faster.

Simple questions here:

Are you unhappy that tOSU has played in 2 of the 3 last NCGs?
Are you unhappy that they won a NCG in the past 7 years?
Are you unhappy that they have played in 4 straight BCS games?
Are you acknowledging that in T Smith's senior season the offense was 'opened up' to fit his skills?
Do you believe that the tSV had any part of any of the above?

I understand your crush on Meyer. The guy is gold wherever he goes. But where are you going with the Tressel = Marty thing exactly? What's the end game JB? To point out that he needs to open things up? Okay, granted. No arguement. It's all true.

Now what? What's your plan? You've identified the 'problem' and I'm waiting to hear the rest.

I am more into relativity than Ayn-steen; and maybe even Oberle. I don't do simple questions. Ain't got a simple mind.


No, not your agenda; mine. Start another thread on JT replacements if you wish. i suppose Meyer might prsent another option, but who am I?

Good coaching job or not?

Did Boone or Wells or Boekman or Laurinitas or Biske or Freeman or Checkwa or Hartline or Nichol or anyone else get any better for the experience or coaching, for example?

Is a 1985 I attack what works in 2008?

Do all the fun-duh-mentals work with all the errors?

You seriously think the jenk efforts that pass for getting outcoached so badly by Meyer and Myles and for Vishnu's sake Mack Cooper make for a decent big game coach?

Period.

That's what evaluates a good coaching job. A coaches' task; not results, for freak's sake.

There's always a dozen FCS / D1 AA coaches in the wings. Got one, you could get another from Northern Iowa.

God bless D'Antonio's D. Coop's recruits, and the Covict.

JT got to be a ramora looking intense.

Peace out yerseld, my brotha.

You still my ace.

Just konfused.

Actually I did start this thread sir. And as official thread starter I feel empowered to ask you those questions and receive a response.

I'll answer a few of yours though cuz I'm not a scared:

He didn't get out coached by Mack Brown. He got beat in a pretty even ballgame. With 30 seconds left the innovative and wide open Mack Brown had put up 17. Mack's stud did what studs do and that was that. No shame, no glory, no excuses.

And yeah, I think very one of those players is better today than the day they got there for a multitude of reasons. Maybe not to the point they were pumped by experts like us to be but you can't tell me those kids didn't reach their peaks either. Not til the next level. Seems to me guys like Bobby Carpenter, Troy Smith and Anthony Gonzalez peaked under Tress and in the NFL they haven't lived up to what they were at OSU. Schlegel too. Gholston. I can go on??

I am talking about results. Since 2003 gimme the teams that have played in 5 BCS games, won 2 of them and lifted the crystal trophy.

So yeah, body of work, good coaching job. I'll go out on the island even if you won't get on a boat.

Always, always, always about results JB. Don't bullshit a bullshitter. Or you wanna reach for the graduation percentages and producing productive citizens next if it ain't about results?

Goes without saying that I respect what you have to say. No question at all. You bring your version of the truth and personally I enjoy the way you do it. It makes for an entertaining thread and fr some fun. But I think in this case you're being short sighted and less than up front. It's a valid question man; you wanna grab someone else? Yes or no? Are you advocating running the vest out of Columbus then lemme hear ya say it.

[oberle]

Or conveserly it may be a matter of the other coaching staffs are that much better at preparation given long prep times?

He doesn't out smart himself.

He gets outsmarted.

I think he gets fixated by an idea, and kind of ignores 'outside' distractions.

When it works (D'Antonio's defense and just enough offense to score some points) you get a national championship.

When the player you devote the entire game plan to gets injured on the first play, you get blown out.

When the talent/experience factors are not in your favor, you start fast, and the more talented team figures out what you're doing and makes changes; and talent wins out.

When the talent level is about equal (as it was against Texas, IMHO) you get a close game. Funny thing about close games is that sometimes you lose.

I see your point about being 'outsmarted;' and maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but I think it's more a matter of what happens with really bright people. They get ideas, and assume (sometimes quite rightly) that they are they only people who could have thought of that. Because Tressel can't come up with a counter to what he's doing, he assumes that nobody can.

People who are not the sharpest tool in the shed (like me) assume that if they come up with an idea, then it's been done thousands of times. Just because I can't think of a counter to an offensive scheme doesn't mean nobody can; so I'm more prepared to try to make changes. (not saying that any changes I make would be worth a damn.)

The most alarming thing about tOSU's football team is their apparent inability to make adjustments at the half. It's okay when the other team doesn't make adjustments; but it kills you when they do.

Would I trade JT for Cooper? Not on your life.
Do I perceive some chinks in his armor? You betcha.

As an aside, I think that JT has been hurt by the 'raiding' of his staff which is part and parcel to a successful program. It seems to me that the quality of his ass't coaches has gone down since the 'glory year' of 2002.

But I think that the talent level remains about the same.

[hermanfontenot]

The most alarming thing about tOSU's football team is their apparent inability to make adjustments at the half.

The rest of your take makes a lot of sense. But this phrase... well, not to channel Jennifer, but... sigh.

I've heard this said at one time or another about every Cleveland/Ohio coach. Butch Davis couldn't "make adjustments at the half." RAC "couldn't make adjustments at the half." Mike Brown "couldn't make adjustments at the half." Now it's JT who "can't make adjustments at the half."

It's not a point of analysis anymore. It's a cliche. Coach X "can't make adjustments at the half." What adjustments? Doesn't matter. Whatever they are, he can't make 'em.

Look at the four "big games" Ohio State has lost in the last three seasons:

vs. Florida: Score was 34-14 at halftime. I don't think a lack of halftime adjustments were the problem.

vs. LSU: Score was 24-10 at halftime. Again, I doubt a lack of halftime adjustments were the problem.

vs. USC: Score was 21-3 at halftime. Ditto, ditto.

vs. Texas: Bucks were winning 6-3 at halftime. But they lost the game in the first half when they dominated but only had a three-point lead to show for it.

Three of these games were all but over by halftime. In all three, a disastrous second quarter was the hallmark. Not a "lack of halftime adjustments." I suppose you could point them out as a reason why Ohio State lost to Texas, but does anyone honestly think the Bucks should have held the Longhorns to three points? Or that Colt McCoy wasn't going to get going at some point? Or that something could have been done to counter the fact that OSU was starting a true freshman with a bum shoulder at quarterback?

Oberle, if it seems like I'm picking on you, I'm sorry. It's just I hear the phrase so often, and so seldom attached to any context. It just gets thrown out there.

[oberle]

Oberle, if it seems like I'm picking on you, I'm sorry. It's just I hear the phrase so often, and so seldom attached to any context. It just gets thrown out there.

What?? Picking on me? How dare you?

Seriously, I understand your reaction to the cliche. I shouldn't have said, 'at half-time'

What I meant was that what seems to work for tOSU's opponent in the 1st half invariably continues to work throughout the game. With Florida, it was tOSU being scared to death of the spee at the WR, they ignored the fact that the starting QB couldn't throw the ball that far accurately, so they left open all those passes that he could complete.

But, the score at the half doesn't always indicate the level of play of either or both teams.

I agree that tOSU lost the game in the 1st half last week; but I insist that those plays that were working for Texas at the beginning of the game continued to work throughout. Maybe not every time, but pretty consistently.

As for holding Texas to three points. No I expected them to hold Texas to single digits.

But then I'm an optimist.

[FUDU]

Herm in regards to your list a post or two above history could be written completely different if not for a total of 3 offensive plays for OSU.

LSU, JT's boys could have been up 14-0 with a minute or two left in the first quarter, not unreasonable to suggest it could have changed Les Miles approach the rest of the half or game?

USC, the Buckeyes could have scored a TD to make the score 10-7 OSU or keep it 14-10 at some point late in the first half, again changing things for that portion of the game.

My point here is as I've said above to JB, a few simple plays and JT could have one or even two wins in those big games, all with his same approach, changing the perception of the program and college football history as well.

[furls]

I tried to stay away from this but I just couldn't anymore. There are some interesting points on all sides, here are some things to consider:

1. Michigan sucks now, obvious statement, but if beating them every year does not make you feel good about life then you need to check your Ohio State fan club card at the door. If you ever consider playing scUM to be "not a big game" go back and rewatch highlights from the 90s. Remember when we all used to say, "I would settle for 1-10 as long as that one was vs. scUM?" I remember saying that when "master recruiter" and poor game coach John Cooper was running the show and guys like Charles Woodson and Desmond Howard were leaving Ohio and going to scUM. Maybe, just maybe, Michigan sucks now because they are not getting 5 of the 10 best players in the state every year anymore. Michigan needs to recruit outside Michigan to succeed, and while scUM does get national kids; scUM needs Ohio kids to be good. The rivalry has swung, Tressel is now getting just about every Ohio kid he wants, which is not only filling OSU's cupboards, but is also depleting Michigan's.

2. 2006 NCG (played in 2007). OSU was destroyed by Florida. Tressel was outcoached by Meyer, but even more alarming was how flat the OSU team came out. It was an embarassment, but for as much as the national media harped on OSU it sure didn't do as much damage as the alarmists would have you believe. Losing the game was disappointing for the fans, but it really has done very little to affect the recruiting. Following that game the Buckeyes went on the recruit the #4 class in the country in 2008 (the recruiting on the 07 class was already done and awaiting LOIs).

3. Who really thought that the Buckeyes were really supposed to go to the 2007 NC game? That team came out and did not execute, period. I was pissed after the game that Buckeyes didn't pursue the run, but in the end, the team came out and played like they weren't quite ready for the NC game (surprise surprise).

4. OK, Ill bite... who then? Tired of Jim Tressel? Fire him and then name his replacement. Who do you want? Fine Urban Meyer is a better coach, that is 1 guy out of 119 programs. Tressel is too conservative? Ok, water is wet. What is nice about Tressel is that he does not lose games he should win, can you say the same about Pete Carroll or Bob Stoopes or Les Miles or ..... It is boring sometimes, but as much as you hate losing to Texas, how would you like to drop a game to Stanford? He represents the program well and has caused Ohio State to become a true national power. As much as you guys are worrying about national perception, playing in all these title games sure isnt hurting recruiting. Even after two NC game losses Tressel's 09 class is the best he has brought in and probably the best to set foot on OSU's campus since 1967's. For those that care... it is #2 by Rivals right now.

5. I actually think this may have been Tressel's best coaching season yet. He fired his Captain starting QB and had one of the worst O-Lines I can remember at OSU. Seriously, they were not good. He adapted. He brought in a QB who could run for his life. This is not a great OSU team, it is a rebuilding year and guess what... next year is too. It is pretty nice when you are getting to a BCS game in a rebuilding year. You think his play calling was too conservative against Texas? Did you see what happened when Pryor threw the ball? Do you still wonder why we weren't chucking the ball down the field?

Seriously, this whole discussion is soooo Cleveland fan that it is not funny. Once upon a time beating Michigan and playing for Rose Bowls was enough. Now that we are at that standard and have failed to take the next step you guys are saying that the HC is a conservative choke artist. I am sorry, but if I have to "settle" for a Big Ten championship and a Michigan win every year well then so be it, that is enough for me. Tressel is the only winner in the state of Ohio and you guys are villifying him: Awesome. If I spent my whole life worrying about what everyone else had I would never be content in my own life, what a miserable existence that would be.

[mattvan1]

I tried to stay away from this but I just couldn't anymore. There are some interesting points on all sides, here are some things to consider:

Shit Mike I don't want to pick a fight but what the hell I'll respond to your very well thought out post

1. Michigan sucks now, obvious statement, but if beating them every year does not make you feel good about life then you need to check your Ohio State fan club card at the door. If you ever consider playing scUM to be "not a big game" go back and rewatch highlights from the 90s. Remember when we all used to say, "I would settle for 1-10 as long as that one was vs. scUM?" I remember saying that when "master recruiter" and poor game coach John Cooper was running the show and guys like Charles Woodson and Desmond Howard were leaving Ohio and going to scUM. Maybe, just maybe, Michigan sucks now because they are not getting 5 of the 10 best players in the state every year anymore. Michigan needs to recruit outside Michigan to succeed, and while scUM does get national kids; scUM needs Ohio kids to be good. The rivalry has swung, Tressel is now getting just about every Ohio kid he wants, which is not only filling OSU's cupboards, but is also depleting Michigan's.

Yes, I feel great when we beat Michigan. It is still THE GAME for us. On a national level it is still recognized as a great rivalry, but in the polls it is no different than Florida-Florida State. A once meaningful game that now only counts to the alumni, and not the national media. It is inconsequential outside of Ohio. BTW, is getting every good Ohio kid good enough?

2. 2006 NCG (played in 2007). OSU was destroyed by Florida. Tressel was outcoached by Meyer, but even more alarming was how flat the OSU team came out. It was an embarassment, but for as much as the national media harped on OSU it sure didn't do as much damage as the alarmists would have you believe. Losing the game was disappointing for the fans, but it really has done very little to affect the recruiting. Following that game the Buckeyes went on the recruit the #4 class in the country in 2008 (the recruiting on the 07 class was already done and awaiting LOIs).

Comming out flat is on JT and the staff. Also, I can no longer believe the class rankings. ND gets primo recruits every year as well. Does Weiss suck that badly? (well, maybe) I'll channel JB channeling Parcells - "All I can go by is what I see". And what I see every year is we are the best team in the nation except for those top 1-2 teams in the SEC, Big 12, PAC 10. We are always very good, but quite often not good enough.

3. Who really thought that the Buckeyes were really supposed to go to the 2007 NC game? That team came out and did not execute, period. I was pissed after the game that Buckeyes didn't pursue the run, but in the end, the team came out and played like they weren't quite ready for the NC game (surprise surprise).

Not many. But we were there. It's not that we lost, it's that his team melted down when things got tough.

4. OK, Ill bite... who then? Tired of Jim Tressel? Fire him and then name his replacement. Who do you want? Fine Urban Meyer is a better coach, that is 1 guy out of 119 programs. Tressel is too conservative? Ok, water is wet. What is nice about Tressel is that he does not lose games he should win, can you say the same about Pete Carroll or Bob Stoopes or Les Miles or ..... It is boring sometimes, but as much as you hate losing to Texas, how would you like to drop a game to Stanford? He represents the program well and has caused Ohio State to become a true national power. As much as you guys are worrying about national perception, playing in all these title games sure isnt hurting recruiting. Even after two NC game losses Tressel's 09 class is the best he has brought in and probably the best to set foot on OSU's campus since 1967's. For those that care... it is #2 by Rivals right now.

I don't think anyone wants to see JT leave. I, for one, just want him to get better. The O Concept is, at it's core, a HS Offense. Really, that has to be my biggest beef. It's just soooooo unimaginative and routine. All based on execution of a few basic plays. Guess what, Coach, you can win with that in the Big 10. Elsewhere, not so much. He IS uber-conservative. Chicken-egg question - is JT the way he is because those are the types of players he gets, or does he get only those players cause he is the way he is?

These opportunities don't come around very often, especially for a northern school. I hope JT can capitalize on another one in next couple of years.

5. I actually think this may have been Tressel's best coaching season yet. He fired his Captain starting QB and had one of the worst O-Lines I can remember at OSU. Seriously, they were not good. He adapted. He brought in a QB who could run for his life. This is not a great OSU team, it is a rebuilding year and guess what... next year is too. It is pretty nice when you are getting to a BCS game in a rebuilding year. You think his play calling was too conservative against Texas? Did you see what happened when Pryor threw the ball? Do you still wonder why we weren't chucking the ball down the field?

I think he played his game against Texas. It didn't work, as it has not worked in a lot of big games recently. The bottom line is that Texas was better. Play that game 10 times, OSU wins 3. But the margin is very slim.

Seriously, this whole discussion is soooo Cleveland fan that it is not funny. Once upon a time beating Michigan and playing for Rose Bowls was enough. Now that we are at that standard and have failed to take the next step you guys are saying that the HC is a conservative choke artist. I am sorry, but if I have to "settle" for a Big Ten championship and a Michigan win every year well then so be it, that is enough for me. Tressel is the only winner in the state of Ohio and you guys are villifying him: Awesome. If I spent my whole life worrying about what everyone else had I would never be content in my own life, what a miserable existence that would be.

I think "villifying" is a bit of a mis-representation. JT is a very good, very conservative coach who upholds the ideals of tOSU and is one helluva human being. He is not the Christ child, immune to criticism, however. He has had chances to grab the brass ring several times and thank goodness he has been successful once. That said, there are elements of his style that I wish he would change.

As far as being happy to win the Big 10 and go to the Rose Bowl, that was cool when the Big 10 was relevant and the Rose Bowl meant something. That is no longer the case on both accounts, but is probably best saved for another thread.

[e0y2e3]

Rack Matt.

And can I also say that Tressel should have a pitchfork shoved up his ass for last years title games? Failing is one thing, I never expected to win, letting the team melt down and fight amongst themselves is an entirely different story. If you are going to preach and live by discipline you better enforce it when the camera is on you.

[furls]

And what I see every year is we are the best team in the nation except for those top 1-2 teams in the SEC, Big 12, PAC 10. We are always very good, but quite often not good enough.

Even for the best teams in the country, the top 5 every year, winning a title is damn hard. I liken this a lot to living in the best condo building in NYC and being upset because you don't have the penthouse. Right now, the Buckeyes live in a pretty nice neighborhood, and sometimes you need to stop, take a deep breath, look around, and realize how good you have it.

As for rankings, they are what they are... a ballpark estimate of the strength of a recruiting class. You cannot differentiate who has had a better class this year LSU (#1) or OSU (#2), but what you can say is that a class that is #2 is a VERY strong class. As for ND's inexplicable ability to have highly ranked recruiting classes and produce nothing, well, have you seen their on field product and coaching? Weis is not a good coach or even play caller, he still doesn't understand that college ball is not the NFL. There is a reason NCAA teams do not typically stay within the confines of an NFL system; it is to capitalize on the mistakes that NCAA defenses make that NFL teams don't. NCAA players tend to overpursue, making them much more susceptible to misdirection. NCAA receivers typically run mediocre to poor (by NFL standard) routes, so if you are calling plays that call for precise timing (think Tom Brady) your receiver is probably not going to do it well enough for it to work. In short, there is a reason why NCAA coaches fail miserably in the NFL and NFL coaches don't do that well in college (there are of course exceptions), successful coaches at either level know how to capitalize on the mistakes of their competition.

It's not that we lost, it's that his team melted down when things got tough.

Melted down like a team with a first year starting quarterback (who already had happy feet). Melted down like a team full of sophomores and juniors, mostly first and second year starters on defense. Like I said, last year's team's excuse was that it was too young, a valid excuse. Unfortunately last year's team played well enough for all the starters to return to their positions with little competition, seriously could you bench Boeckman from day one after last year? Not really. Give Pryor all of the reps as #1 in fall practice, all the reps as #1 for the first three games, and who knows. He is just one example. Could you really start an unproven freshman, DeVier Posey at split end over a 3 year starter (Robo)? He was the better player, but I am not sure that you can start the year that way based on last year's result. Back to the original point, last year's team was just too young... key 15 yard penalties by Spitler (a sophomore) and Heyward (a true freshman) are unfortunately predictable. Two picks by a first year starting QB in a championship game... equally predictable.

Of course there was the lousy offensive line. It was bad last year (07) and terrible this year (08). That is 100% Tressel's fault. The Buckeyes only recruited 2 OL in 2005, 2 in 2006, and 1 in 2007. There are 10 OLmen required to make a thin two deep (which puts you one injury away from trouble). That means you need to average 2.5 per recruiting class with 100% success rate (yeah right!) in order to man a two deep. If you want a good two deep, you need to bring in 4 per class. Tressel seems to have learned this and in 2008 he landed 4 (3 amazing players in Brewster, Adams, and Shugarts) and currently has 6 (counting transfer Boren and Fragel moving to Tackle) in 2009 while chasing another in Marcus Hall. The line should be the absolute strength of this team in 2010. So while it is tempting to crucify Bollman for the OL play, and sure he bears some of the blame, the real blame falls on the guy allocating the 'ships.

It's just soooooo unimaginative and routine.

It is not so much that the offense is unimaginative and routine, most of them are. Frankly I would rather have a team perfectly execute the iso for 4 yards every play than running crazy ass reverses, flea flickers, and trick plays. In short, your playbook does not have to be deep, it has to be well executed (particularly at the LOS) and most importantly UNPREDICTABLE. That is the biggest problem. I can tell by formation and down & distance what the Buckeyes are going to run about 50-60% of the time with rudimentary game study and I am not an NCAA DC. I bet they can tell 70+% of the time, particularly as they break out all the statistics and stuff. That is the biggest problem, for the three years I have been screaming for some simple additions that would compliment the power I game that Bucks have been using, things like play action pass into 8 men fronts and counters. Nothing terribly imiginative, but things that will take advantage of the overpursuit of young players. The Bucks have the TE's to run PA into eight men fronts and create mismatches they don't do it. The use of an H-Back/FB to catch balls in the flat would be huge in spreading the field laterally, but if all you are going to do is run btwn the tackles you better be prepared to see the LBs cheating inside and the safeties cheating up and call plays that capitalize on that. (FWIW PA on 2&1 does not count as being unpredictable, as that is about as predictable as a run up the gut on the ensuing 3&1).

As for getting the best kids in OH, that is enough to win you the Big Ten. Getting the best kids in OH, PA, MI, IND, ILL, and cherry picking a couple of kids out of FL and TX... that is enough to win it all (see the classes of 2008 and 2009). Unfortunately, I see 09 as another "disappointing year" where the Bucks just win the B10 and just beat scUM as they rebuild. Right now the Bucks are paying for the 2006 and 2007 classes which appear to have underperformed. Stand by for a year of youth, conservative play calling as a result, and youthful mistakes.

[jb]

I've brought what I've had to bring, but being the Conrad Dobler of this domain, no way I sit back.

To me, Lee and Matt represent the non-I-270 outlook. While there is no one, and I mean no one, who knows more about Buckeye football here than Furls, I think this is all a matter of relative perspective.

The analogy about osu - um now being FSU - Miami is spot on. No one respects either program anymore nationally, and what you get from Buck Nutz are "lalala i can't hear them".

Here's the problem at the core.

It's just not that hard to win in conference at a legacy program, but it isn't a given either. UCLA, ND & Nebraska now know that, and bama, UT and OU have known that sting recently as well. So t SV must get love for that. But neither is what he's done like what say, Mangini or Pinkel did at their pgms last season.

That said, I think there has to be consesnus that the O must change; come out of the 1980's .

The question is will it change enough?

After 2002 and beating UM which is still the measure of all things inside I-270, tSV is much more than a man, and slightly less than a god. He's Herecles.

So what will insipre change? We all know that his BFF Bollman is accountable for the oL and JT really runs the offense. He's gonna fire himself and accept being chairman of the board? He's gonna demote his BFF ? I have my doubts.

But I did see Heacock play some press on Texas, so anything is possible. That's another guy who could be upgraded, but t SV will never do it.

So for the time being you can expect Big 10 contention if not hegemony, and being a national joke unable to win against the real top teams. Good enuff is good enuff. Ther's always the fun and pagentry of college athletics and interesting seasons that make tSV better than facing a Solich or kid Shula Era, so it isn't like t SV is a bum, either.

Temper expectations accordingly.

[hermanfontenot]

To me, Lee and Matt represent the non-I-270 outlook.

And anyone who disagrees with you is a shill.

Right?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Shit I live 25 minutes outside of the I-270 outerbelt. I guess that makes everything I said 100% right. Awesome

[furls]

Wow, well my inside 270 perspective must really be off kilter since I have lived in excess of 1,000 miles outside of 270 for the last 2 years. I know plenty about national perspective. How much time have you spent outside of the state of Ohio to draw your opinion?

I moved to the heart of SEC country right after the Florida pasting, and I was lucky enough to still be there after the 2007 loss. Were there some ignorant SEC shills that called into the talk radio? Sure. There were also plenty that called in to say getting to 2 NC games in a row was pretty impressive. I spent this entire season in New England, and again, there are some guys regurgitating talking points from Cowherd or PTI, but by and large this anti-OSU thing and "national disrespect" thing is more a product of the national media and guys like Cowherd who make extreme statements for the sake of contraversy.

If you wanna base your opinion of the Buckeyes on what these guys say, then fine. Remember these are the same guys that have given OU a pass for losing all their BCS games since Christ was a corporal or the same guys who spout the same crap about slow position players at OSU and of course the "SEC Speed." All that is crap, just like the picture they paint of the Big Ten. Call the B10 slow and antiquated is just the easy thing to do. Think about it, these are the same guys that say the Big Ten runs the ball too much, or that OSU would struggle with DickRod's spread because they don't see it much (remember PSU, NW, Purdue, Minnesota) all run have been running spread offenses for about 10 years. OSU has plenty of athletes and they will be on the field next year now that the log jam has been cleared.

[furls]

I have said a lot of stuff that is marginally on topic, so let me sum up my thoughts in one succint paragraph.

If you set your standards at a NC then you will be disappointed most of the time. Personally, all I really want from my teams is for them to put a good team together and compete. The Buckeyes and the Cavs are competing. If the Cavs go to the finals and lose in 6 games I will not slash my wrists. If the Cavs drop another 7 game series to the C's I will not get butthurt about it. As Cleveland fans, we know the stench of the cellar to well. I really don't need to smell the world championship roses as long as I can stand in the garden. I don't think Tressel walks on water, I have been very critical of him in the past, and he obviously has his faults. Here some pretty harsh testimony from the post FL game.

I cannot believe that I am grading the coaching on a Jim Tressel coached team out so poorly, but I really have no choice. Not only did the team come out sluggish (I refuse to blame the loss on a 51 day layoff), but the game plan obviously sucked. I have no idea why the Buckeyes started the game in prevent, but what is worse is that they never adjusted out of it. At no point did the Buckeyes ever make a serious attempt to run the ball (against constant nickel defense) which is mystifying particularly given their success at doing so on the first possession. I was expecting to see Troy Smith go with a run option if the Gators covered the Bucks well down the field, but that never happened. Frankly, the Buckeyes looked lost for the entire game and it was a direct reflection of the gameplan and the lack of adjustment.

[jb]

To me, Lee and Matt represent the non-I-270 outlook.

And anyone who disagrees with you is a shill.

Right?

I don't work personal. I don't go down that road, so move that shrimp boat on down the gulf. Not gonna devo into a flame war. If you think I Fergussed, not my intent.

Guys, you can take it personally, but there's nothing personal in it. And Furls, you can ride that iron tube from Murmansk to Minsk, but the "inside the beltway" thing refers to a perspective on the program.

It's all home, home on the range.

The last few years those teams could be coached much better in a variety of ways , just as w/ most of the Coop Era. The schedule and weak conference hides these issues until the rare exposures, which y'all dismiss. I'll even submit that the 2006 team was a sham to a degree.

Obviously, y'all disagree. That's what these boards are all about.



peace out.

[hermanfontenot]

Eh, maybe I'm just being a little defensive, JB. Which I'm wont to do from time to time.

I'm just struggling to see the usefulness of the "I-270" gloss in this conversation.

[peeker643]

Eh, maybe I'm just being a little defensive, JB. Which I'm wont to do from time to time.

I'm just struggling to see the usefulness of the "I-270" gloss in this conversation.

If you're seeing it as an attempt to be demeaning and a bit condescending then I think you're seeing it straight. Just a little bit but it's clearly there. No different than orange and brown colored glasses references, right? Correct me if wrong given my obvious inability to rationalize and think clearly but it appears to me it's intended to infer that those who think differently are not as objective as the enlightened and self actualized people. Regardless of how objectively you actually are looking at things.

No biggie. Gives us something to strive for.

[jb]

Eh, maybe I'm just being a little defensive, JB. Which I'm wont to do from time to time.

I'm just struggling to see the usefulness of the "I-270" gloss in this conversation.

If you're seeing it as an attempt to be demeaning and a bit condescending then I think you're seeing it straight.

Oh horse shit, Peeks.

You can't tell me my intent. I can't tell you or herm how to react. I know I am a huge smart ass and trouble maker, but I'm as much as a live and let live mofo as infests these parts.

But I can tell you what I meant. And that is as simple as reading the Dogpatch's takes on buckeye football and comparing them to say the Monolith's.

It is a difference in perspective. Guys like Lee, me and mattvan are Buckeye fans. But obviously Furls, CDT and maybe Herm bleed that S & G so they are completely immersed. It gives a difference in perspective. Not better, not worse, just different.

[hermanfontenot]

It is a difference in perspective. Guys like Lee, me and mattvan are Buckeye fans. But obviously Furls, CDT and maybe Herm bleed that S & G so they are completely immersed. It gives a difference in perspective. Not better, not worse, just different.

Yes and no. Now, I'll admit, I'm a believer in the Sports Guy's ten-year grace period following a championship. 2002 is going to keep my tummy full for a few years yet.

And at the same time I understand the frustration. With the playcalling. With the YSU cronies-and-family-friends-as-assistants thing. Just with the results in general. I'm not Kevin Bacon in Animal House screaming "All is well!"

I'm just not one to make blanket judgments, at least not in this case. I don't see Florida, LSU, USC and Texas as a monolith. They're different children with different fathers. Florida was a top-to-bottom catastrophe. Texas could have gone either way (and I would have liked to see the game play out with a healthy TP that had confidence in his ability to sustain contact.) LSU and USC were simply superior teams with superior personnel and the homefield advantage. The loss of poise and composure in three of these games was alarming, and that can be put on the head coach. But at some point the players have to take ownership of the team as well.

I'm ready to see what transpires with TP under center full-time, with this star-crossed group of seniors gone, and with whatever changes JT makes to the program. Not ready to consign JT to a certain category quite yet.

[peeker643]

Eh, maybe I'm just being a little defensive, JB. Which I'm wont to do from time to time.

I'm just struggling to see the usefulness of the "I-270" gloss in this conversation.

If you're seeing it as an attempt to be demeaning and a bit condescending then I think you're seeing it straight.

Oh horse shit, Peeks.

You can't tell me my intent. I can't tell you or herm how to react. I know I am a huge smart ass and trouble maker, but I'm as much as a live and let live mofo as infests these parts.

But I can tell you what I meant. And that is as simple as reading the Dogpatch's takes on buckeye football and comparing them to say the Monolith's.

It is a difference in perspective. Guys like Lee, me and mattvan are Buckeye fans. But obviously Furls, CDT and maybe Herm bleed that S & G so they are completely immersed. It gives a difference in perspective. Not better, not worse, just different.

But neither one right or wrong sir. And that's not how most of it reads. It's almost accusatory/derogatory. I ain't tellin ya your intent. I'm telling ya how it sounds to me.

You write too well for that if it ain't what you're going for IMO.

Little bit??

No pokin' at all?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

It's all good. I know i'm a OSU fanboy.... Too deep in the woods to see the trees right? I got ya..... OSU should only be evaluated by people outside of the center of the fanbase. I agree with some of JB's assment, other parts not so much. No worries this has been a good debate. Just takin' potshots at what I perceive to be a soft target. All in fun.

Cheers

[furls]

I'm just not one to make blanket judgments, at least not in this case. I don't see Florida, LSU, USC and Texas as a monolith. They're different children with different fathers. Florida was a top-to-bottom catastrophe. Texas could have gone either way (and I would have liked to see the game play out with a healthy TP that had confidence in his ability to sustain contact.) LSU and USC were simply superior teams with superior personnel and the homefield advantage. The loss of poise and composure in three of these games was alarming, and that can be put on the head coach. But at some point the players have to take ownership of the team as well.

I'm ready to see what transpires with TP under center full-time, with this star-crossed group of seniors gone, and with whatever changes JT makes to the program. Not ready to consign JT to a certain category quite yet.

Perfectly stated. The last time they drew blood the Dr.s, were a bit surprised to see the grey in there with the scarlet, but once I explained things they got it. Just do me a favor JB, don't ever let those guys in the media tell you how you should feel about your teams or how the nation as a whole feels. Remember, these are the same guys who said not one month ago that the Lebron alone could not carry his team past the C's. These guys didn't realize just how shaken up that roster was. These are the guys that said that the Wallace/Hughes&Gooden Trade last year was a bad deal for the Cavs because it put them in a worse cap spot, when it clearly did not. It would be one thing if they're analysis was off a bit from time to time, but I am actually beginning to find their "analysis" factually incorrect. FWIW, Cowherd said that the Hornets would beat the cavs at home last night; the fact that he was wrong is not surprising, guys get stuff wrong, nor is the fact that he picked against the Cavs. In general most of these guys don't pay enough attention to have an informed opinion about much of anything.