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Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

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Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Dozen » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:32 pm

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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby buckeye319 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:00 pm

well, looks like its Mangini-Kokinis or Kokinis-Mangini, whatever you prefer. I don't really get why you'd hire your coach before the GM, esp. when you don't know sh*t about football like Jammies, but at least the Browns can't disappoint any more than they already have in the last decade.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Dozen » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:05 pm

Mangina and KOK............................Like we need any more help Jammies! :lmfao:
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby 4thQtrGlory » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:23 pm

Sounds like Jammies has such a raging boner over Mangini, that as long as kokinis shows up to the interview he'll get the gig.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Chris » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:40 pm

4thQtrGlory wrote:Sounds like Jammies has such a raging boner over Mangini, that as long as kokinis shows up to the interview he'll get the gig.


Seriously!

He is reportedly "obsessed" and "fascinated" with Mangini. Gimme a break. I told my dad the same thing and he asked if he blew Lerner, or something. I have to ask the same question.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:03 am

I don't know.

If - big if - you think Mangenius was a legit coach who got the shaft...

... is it that big of a leap to think Mangini:Kokinis::Mumbles:Pioli::Cowher:Colbert?
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby 4thQtrGlory » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:11 am

I think Mangini is a legit NFL coach who was crucified over the biggest cancer in the NFL (Favre). I am not pimping Mangini, or any other coaching candidate, but I really think Mangini was given a bad deal, and would fit in well here. I will support whatever GM/President/Coach our organization picks. I always have, I always will. Im sure the guys that Randy surrounds himself with know more about these guys then what we see on Sundays and hear on profootballtalk.com
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby consigliere » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:04 am

I am 100% on board with a Mangini coach hiring.

I'm just scared shitless of what we do at GM or even Prez if we fill that too. We need leadership on the field and in the front office.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby buckeye319 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:51 am

Question - if Mangini is hired and they hire his choice for GM, who will be making the personnel decisions (i.e., drafting and signing free agents)? Who has final say?

Mangini, correct?
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby scotty dawg » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:13 am

I'd like to say hi to all here first off,and happy new year.
personally,this browns fan would be pretty happy with a guy who a.)actually has head coaching experience (and only two games under .500 no less!) breaking a 38 year drought of sorts b.)has some brownie roots and might actually "get it" and yes,c.) hopefully has final say on draft picks (cough beenie wells,cough).
as for kokinis-it seems odd we may bring in the guy who replaced phil savage in rat land,but hey,we do irony quite well in northeast ohio...odder yet that the coach picks the GM.
who needs conventional wisdom!!!??? :clap:
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby pup » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:45 am

"The sign on the door reads clusterfuck"
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Crash Davis » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:32 am

Pup wrote:"The sign on the door reads clusterfuck"



Romeo was 2-0 against a more talented Jets team in the last three seasons. The scary part about that is it looks like better coaching won those two games, yikes!
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby onlyindreams » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:44 am

I don't think those Jets teams were more talented. The first year in Cleveland both teams were pretty poor, even though the Jets finished 10-6, that was mostly beating up on bad teams. Last year we were facing Kellen Clemens at QB and still needed Jamal's TD run at the end to finish them off.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby OrangeElf » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:55 am

onlyindreams wrote:I don't think those Jets teams were more talented. The first year in Cleveland both teams were pretty poor, even though the Jets finished 10-6, that was mostly beating up on bad teams. Last year we were facing Kellen Clemens at QB and still needed Jamal's TD run at the end to finish them off.



Are you saying the Browns who finished 4-12 that year were actually a better team than the 10-6 Jets? WOW!
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby onlyindreams » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:10 am

OrangeElf wrote:
onlyindreams wrote:I don't think those Jets teams were more talented. The first year in Cleveland both teams were pretty poor, even though the Jets finished 10-6, that was mostly beating up on bad teams. Last year we were facing Kellen Clemens at QB and still needed Jamal's TD run at the end to finish them off.



Are you saying the Browns who finished 4-12 that year were actually a better team than the 10-6 Jets? WOW!


I'm saying we were fairly close and the Browns had the home field advantage which probably made the difference. Record doesn't tell you how much talent a team has. The next year we were 10-6 and they were 4-12. This is how the NFL goes for all but the elite teams...there are so many variables that can propell you or crush your season. I think the 4-12 Browns from this year were probably just as talented as the 10-6 Browns from last year, maybe even a little more talented. We had injuries, Braylon and DA dropped off a cliff, then our QB's went down and it all steamrolled into a horrible year. Also there is the any given Sunday factor. Romeo's Browns crushed the Giants this year.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Crash Davis » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:21 am

onlyindreams wrote:
OrangeElf wrote:
onlyindreams wrote:I don't think those Jets teams were more talented. The first year in Cleveland both teams were pretty poor, even though the Jets finished 10-6, that was mostly beating up on bad teams. Last year we were facing Kellen Clemens at QB and still needed Jamal's TD run at the end to finish them off.



Are you saying the Browns who finished 4-12 that year were actually a better team than the 10-6 Jets? WOW!


I'm saying we were fairly close and the Browns had the home field advantage which probably made the difference. Record doesn't tell you how much talent a team has. The next year we were 10-6 and they were 4-12. This is how the NFL goes for all but the elite teams...there are so many variables that can propell you or crush your season. I think the 4-12 Browns from this year were probably just as talented as the 10-6 Browns from last year, maybe even a little more talented. We had injuries, Braylon and DA dropped off a cliff, then our QB's went down and it all steamrolled into a horrible year. Also there is the any given Sunday factor. Romeo's Browns crushed the Giants this year.



In 2006 the Jets were a much better team at rushing the ball than throwing yet they threw the ball more than they ran in that game against Browns who were dead last at stopping the run and as a result they did not score an offensive touchdown. Your telling me coaching had nothing to do with that?

I also remember Mangini going for field goals in the '07 game more than once when he needed touchdowns.

Both games were close and came down to a few crucial calls yet I question the game planning and decision making of Mangini in those games.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby ProgRocker » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:08 pm

Crash Davis wrote:In 2006 the Jets were a much better team at rushing the ball than throwing it threw the ball more than they ran in that game against Browns who were dead last at stopping the run and as a result they did not score an offensive touchdown. Your telling me coaching had nothing to do with that?

I also remember Mangini going for field goals in the '07 game more than once when he needed touchdowns.

Both games were close and came down to a few crucial calls yet I question the game planning and decision making of Mangini in those games.


The answer to your question is, you're wrong about those games (see my response on the other thread).

Now, to offer an olive branch, I AM concerned about the lack of personnel experience this Kokonis guy seems to (not) have. I haven't seen enough of Mangini to know if he does have such knowledge since I don't know if he was the guy who made the call on a lot of the free agents and drafts the Jets have had (though I DO know he didn't want Favre, so he has that going for him), and Lerner is living dangerously with that lack of experience.

It seems to me that Lerner's ideal is a Pioli/Mangini combo, but that there are still hard feelings vis a vis Spygate (at least according to Peter King this morning) that will prevent that from happening. There's also the implication that Pioli will blow up everything this year and start over while Mangini will try to work what is on the Browns' roster to make it better, and that is also a huge chance the franchise will take.

Because one thing that Crennel specifically did that has really put the Browns in another precarious situation is not just that he didn't develop the midlevel players that he had (and didn't even try, apparently as a result of being angry at Savage's choices), but that he clearly took the talent that was here (Braylon, Thomas, DA) and made those players worse, through lack of discipline, accountability, and letting egos run rampant. Is it true that Bell and Rucker can't play? We don't know, and that's horrific. Do those players actually have any talent? If my read on the Pioli v. Mangini argument is right, Pioli says no while Mangini says maybe. Ultimately, that as much as anything else seems to be driving the decision-making.

I would propose that Mangini/Kokonis may be worth a one-year flyer if Cowher and Shanahan will be available in 2010. If the Browns flounder again I can easily see Lerner pull out the checkbook one more time, and if they uptick it means Lerner knew a little more than any of us thought ... or the Browns got a little lucky. Either way, I'm still not sweating the decision all that much.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby jamesownsdet » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:11 pm

Kokonis? Is that greek? Don't anybody bend over around this cat!!!

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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Crash Davis » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:42 pm

ProgRocker wrote:
Crash Davis wrote:In 2006 the Jets were a much better team at rushing the ball than throwing it threw the ball more than they ran in that game against Browns who were dead last at stopping the run and as a result they did not score an offensive touchdown. Your telling me coaching had nothing to do with that?

I also remember Mangini going for field goals in the '07 game more than once when he needed touchdowns.

Both games were close and came down to a few crucial calls yet I question the game planning and decision making of Mangini in those games.


The answer to your question is, you're wrong about those games (see my response on the other thread).

Now, to offer an olive branch, I AM concerned about the lack of personnel experience this Kokonis guy seems to (not) have. I haven't seen enough of Mangini to know if he does have such knowledge since I don't know if he was the guy who made the call on a lot of the free agents and drafts the Jets have had (though I DO know he didn't want Favre, so he has that going for him), and Lerner is living dangerously with that lack of experience.

It seems to me that Lerner's ideal is a Pioli/Mangini combo, but that there are still hard feelings vis a vis Spygate (at least according to Peter King this morning) that will prevent that from happening. There's also the implication that Pioli will blow up everything this year and start over while Mangini will try to work what is on the Browns' roster to make it better, and that is also a huge chance the franchise will take.

Because one thing that Crennel specifically did that has really put the Browns in another precarious situation is not just that he didn't develop the midlevel players that he had (and didn't even try, apparently as a result of being angry at Savage's choices), but that he clearly took the talent that was here (Braylon, Thomas, DA) and made those players worse, through lack of discipline, accountability, and letting egos run rampant. Is it true that Bell and Rucker can't play? We don't know, and that's horrific. Do those players actually have any talent? If my read on the Pioli v. Mangini argument is right, Pioli says no while Mangini says maybe. Ultimately, that as much as anything else seems to be driving the decision-making.

I would propose that Mangini/Kokonis may be worth a one-year flyer if Cowher and Shanahan will be available in 2010. If the Browns flounder again I can easily see Lerner pull out the checkbook one more time, and if they uptick it means Lerner knew a little more than any of us thought ... or the Browns got a little lucky. Either way, I'm still not sweating the decision all that much.


Okay so the Browns were not dead last in rushing in '06 they were 29th still horrible and still doesn't change the fact that the Jets throwing the ball more than rushing in that game was a result of the game plan put in by the coaches. I am sure Mangini got a chance to see the game plan before the '06 game so he's ultimately responsible for that as is Romeo for some of his kicking field goals when he needs touchdowns i.e. like Mangini did in '07 against us which leads me to think he's no different than RAC on gameday. I do agree that he'd kick this team in the butt more but if his coaching on game day isn't much improved from RAC then they won't win many more games.

Kokinis does concern me as with the coaches I also think we are getting more of the same with the GM should Lerner hire him. Kokinis is a former scout who was promoted to pro personnel director in 2003 by none other than Phil Savage. Kokinis was not promoted after Savage left and has stayed on in his role as pro personnel director.

I don't think either of these guys are change we can believe in.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby danwismar » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:59 pm

The point has been made here previously (I forget by whom) but it bears repeating;

Can you believe we are going to hire a Belichick disciple as coach and an inexperienced Ravens personnel man as GM?

Is this the definition of insanity?
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby OrangeElf » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:09 pm

wiz1001 wrote:The point has been made here previously (I forget by whom) but it bears repeating;

Can you believe we are going to hire a Belichick disciple as coach and an inexperienced Ravens personnel man as GM?

Is this the definition of insanity?


I am sure by many on here all I did was remind everyone what the definition of insanity is. Apparently Lerner is either a mad scientist or doesn't know the meaning of the word.

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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Yinzer Hater » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:12 pm

Great job Lerner. We now have one front runner candidate for each position. One is not on anyone's interview list for open coaching spots, and the other is not on anyone's radar when it comes to executive positions
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Ziner » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:15 pm

Yinzer Hater wrote:Great job Lerner. We now have one front runner candidate for each position. One is not on anyone's interview list for open coaching spots, and the other is not on anyone's radar when it comes to executive positions


In fairness how many people cleaned house like we did and are looking for a GM? Denver is, Detroit looks like they just promoted from within (hey at least Randy isnt the Ford's), KC who we are fight with for Pioli, and who else needs a GM?

Thus, there are not hot young prospects for GM positions and the only teams looking for one by my count is Denver, KC and us.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby hornet84 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:18 pm

buckeye 319:

I don't really get why you'd hire your coach before the GM


It worked the last time :lmfao:
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Tree » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:29 pm

From PFT

Latest News and Rumors
RAVENS BLOCK KOKINIS INTERVIEW
Posted by Mike Florio on January 5, 2009, 12:59 p.m.
Contrary to reports that Ravens director of pro personnel George Kokinis would interview for the G.M. job with the Browns, the Cleveland Plain Dealer reports that the Ravens have blocked the move, at least for now.

Under a new rule adopted by the NFL in October 2008, a team that is still participating in the postseason may grant permission for a non-high-level employee to be interviewed for a high-level position such as G.M.

However, the team currrently employing the candidate is not required to grant such permission.

Then there’s the question of whether the Ravens can prevent the move altogether. Although Kokinis might be the “General Manager” of the Browns, he must be offered the job of “General Manager” as defined by the league’s Anti-Tampering Policy, or the Ravens can block the move if he’s still under contract with the Ravens.

So, in other words, the G.M. job in Cleveland must give Kokinis: ”(1) the authority over all personnel decisions related to the signing of free agents, the selection of players in the College Draft, trades, terminations, and related decisions, and (2) the responsibility for coordinating other football activities with the Head Coach.”

So, in other words, if former Jets coach Eric Mangini is trying to create a Belichick/Pioli vibe in Cleveland, with Mangini having final say over the roster and the draft and Kokinis being the right-hand man running the personnel side of the business, it apparently can’t — and won’t – happen, since the Ravens seem to be poised to prevent it.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:14 pm

ProgRocker wrote: I would propose that Mangini/Kokonis may be worth a one-year flyer if Cowher and Shanahan will be available in 2010. If the Browns flounder again I can easily see Lerner pull out the checkbook one more time, and if they uptick it means Lerner knew a little more than any of us thought ... or the Browns got a little lucky. Either way, I'm still not sweating the decision all that much.


Now I understand why you are scolding some of us to chill and not worry. It's because we can have a do-over after only one year. That makes a lot of sense.

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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Crash Davis » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:35 pm

Yinzer Hater wrote:Great job Lerner. We now have one front runner candidate for each position. One is not on anyone's interview list for open coaching spots, and the other is not on anyone's radar when it comes to executive positions


This is because Randy Lerner is from the Art Modell ownership tree.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Ziner » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:28 am

So say Mangina and Opa get the jobs and take over the Browns, who the hell is qualified to scout for the draft? Opa only worked with FA's from what I can tell here

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/S ... kinis.aspx

Mangina didnt make the picks in NY but who knows if he knows the first thing about it

at least he drafted Gholston :hide:
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby consigliere » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:39 am

According to Rizzo on FOX8, the Ravens have denied the Browns permission to interview Kokinis. They cite reasons that they do not want any distractions.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby CP » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:47 am

Consigliere wrote:According to Rizzo on FOX8, the Ravens have denied the Browns permission to interview Kokinis. They cite reasons that they do not want any distractions.


I think Rizzo dumbed it down. Other reports have the denial more in the vein of a restriction, that the Ravens have set Sunday as the day to interview Kokinis and only for a position where he is the #1 football guy.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby jb » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:53 am

Ziner wrote:So say Mangina and Opa get the jobs and take over the Browns, who the hell is qualified to scout for the draft? Opa only worked with FA's from what I can tell here

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/S ... kinis.aspx

Mangina didnt make the picks in NY but who knows if he knows the first thing about it

at least he drafted Gholston :hide:


I deduce form what I read / hear they really like the people and structure Opie set up and left behind, Z. They want continuity w/ different, more-cohesive leadership becasu ethe kids couldn't get along and Opie alientaed his boss (dumb) . Other than that, I'm passing aloing that which is inappropriate to cross-post.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:54 pm

OK, here goes;

The goal is to get the organization straightened out once and for all.

A point many are missing here is not when arguing about the possible Mangini hire is the fact you can't C-A-N-N-O-T have a head coach bring in his own GM. It's ass-backwards. It upsets your checks and balances.

Head coaches, especially in this day and age are about the most paranoid guys on the planet. If you allow Mangini to bring in his hand picked guy you eliminate a key facet, which is the GM/Head Coach battles that go on in every good organization that allow for players that can help the team in the long run see the field instead of a veteran who the head coach sees as possibly being able to save his ass today. Coaches are concerned with their shelf life. A good GM cares about the team and it's structure.

Accorsi and Schottenheimer had many closed door sessions, many resulting in good decisions for the team.

Pioli/Ferentz is so far superior to Kokinis/Mangini for this very reason. And I'm not thrilled with Ferentz and I like some things about Mangini. But even for you guys that hate Ferentz, look past "Kirk Ferentz as head coach" and understand how horrible doing things backwards is.

You guys worrying about who is handling the draft, because Kok is unqualified. Well, you're right about one thing, Kok is unqualified, but worrying about the draft, well, with this structure, and the above mentioned problems it creates, why worry about the draft when it's effects are going to be both controlled and stunted by the same guy anyway.

Now, it's relatively easy to see what's going on. Crennell and Savage barely spoke at the end, because Savage's repeated requests to play Hall and some others fell on deaf ears, well, because someone was trying to save his job, in the current moment. Two years from now wasn't going to help him. So, now you've got Lerner wanting to have some cohesiveness between these two positions, which is fine, but you can't achieve this in the backwards fashion they are heading in, and help the future of the organization.

Bottom line, they need someone strong at the top. There is some question around the league as to Lerner's interest/long term commitment to ownership. This is a huge problem that isn't getting much run. You are trying to get an elite guy in here, to this obvious mess, and he's supposed to make a long term commitment not only to the mess, but not knowing for sure about the ownership of the team?

Kokinis will be an easy hire because he's going to think it's the happiest of Birthdays and the Merriest of Christmases all rolled into one if the Browns throw a few million dollars at him as a PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL GM.

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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:08 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:OK, here goes;

The goal is to get the organization straightened out once and for all.

A point many are missing here is not when arguing about the possible Mangini hire is the fact you can't C-A-N-N-O-T have a head coach bring in his own GM. It's ass-backwards. It upsets your checks and balances.

Head coaches, especially in this day and age are about the most paranoid guys on the planet. If you allow Mangini to bring in his hand picked guy you eliminate a key facet, which is the GM/Head Coach battles that go on in every good organization that allow for players that can help the team in the long run see the field instead of a veteran who the head coach sees as possibly being able to save his ass today. Coaches are concerned with their shelf life. A good GM cares about the team and it's structure.

Accorsi and Schottenheimer had many closed door sessions, many resulting in good decisions for the team.

Pioli/Ferentz is so far superior to Kokinis/Mangini for this very reason. And I'm not thrilled with Ferentz and I like some things about Mangini. But even for you guys that hate Ferentz, look past "Kirk Ferentz as head coach" and understand how horrible doing things backwards is.

You guys worrying about who is handling the draft, because Kok is unqualified. Well, you're right about one thing, Kok is unqualified, but worrying about the draft, well, with this structure, and the above mentioned problems it creates, why worry about the draft when it's effects are going to be both controlled and stunted by the same guy anyway.

Now, it's relatively easy to see what's going on. Crennell and Savage barely spoke at the end, because Savage's repeated requests to play Hall and some others fell on deaf ears, well, because someone was trying to save his job, in the current moment. Two years from now wasn't going to help him. So, now you've got Lerner wanting to have some cohesiveness between these two positions, which is fine, but you can't achieve this in the backwards fashion they are heading in, and help the future of the organization.

Bottom line, they need someone strong at the top. There is some question around the league as to Lerner's interest/long term commitment to ownership. This is a huge problem that isn't getting much run. You are trying to get an elite guy in here, to this obvious mess, and he's supposed to make a long term commitment not only to the mess, but not knowing for sure about the ownership of the team?

Kokinis will be an easy hire because he's going to think it's the happiest of Birthdays and the Merriest of Christmases all rolled into one if the Browns throw a few million dollars at him as a PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL GM.

CHRIST ON A PONY.


Can I get an Hell Yeah? Spot on. Yes we need to wait and see what happens. Yes we need to try and not over react. But who really feels confident about the direction this franchise is heading? No bullshit, I guarentee there are posters on this board that could do a better job of putting together an FO and staff than Randy Lerner.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Earle » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:03 am

buckeye319 wrote:Question - if Mangini is hired and they hire his choice for GM, who will be making the personnel decisions (i.e., drafting and signing free agents)? Who has final say?

Mangini, correct?



well then just maybe the HC would have a GM who would draft the players the coach says he needs instead of playing God like Savgina did.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby noles1 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:20 am

Lead Pipe wrote:OK, here goes;

The goal is to get the organization straightened out once and for all.

A point many are missing here is not when arguing about the possible Mangini hire is the fact you can't C-A-N-N-O-T have a head coach bring in his own GM. It's ass-backwards. It upsets your checks and balances.

Head coaches, especially in this day and age are about the most paranoid guys on the planet. If you allow Mangini to bring in his hand picked guy you eliminate a key facet, which is the GM/Head Coach battles that go on in every good organization that allow for players that can help the team in the long run see the field instead of a veteran who the head coach sees as possibly being able to save his ass today. Coaches are concerned with their shelf life. A good GM cares about the team and it's structure.

Accorsi and Schottenheimer had many closed door sessions, many resulting in good decisions for the team.

Pioli/Ferentz is so far superior to Kokinis/Mangini for this very reason. And I'm not thrilled with Ferentz and I like some things about Mangini. But even for you guys that hate Ferentz, look past "Kirk Ferentz as head coach" and understand how horrible doing things backwards is.

You guys worrying about who is handling the draft, because Kok is unqualified. Well, you're right about one thing, Kok is unqualified, but worrying about the draft, well, with this structure, and the above mentioned problems it creates, why worry about the draft when it's effects are going to be both controlled and stunted by the same guy anyway.

Now, it's relatively easy to see what's going on. Crennell and Savage barely spoke at the end, because Savage's repeated requests to play Hall and some others fell on deaf ears, well, because someone was trying to save his job, in the current moment. Two years from now wasn't going to help him. So, now you've got Lerner wanting to have some cohesiveness between these two positions, which is fine, but you can't achieve this in the backwards fashion they are heading in, and help the future of the organization.

Bottom line, they need someone strong at the top. There is some question around the league as to Lerner's interest/long term commitment to ownership. This is a huge problem that isn't getting much run. You are trying to get an elite guy in here, to this obvious mess, and he's supposed to make a long term commitment not only to the mess, but not knowing for sure about the ownership of the team?

Kokinis will be an easy hire because he's going to think it's the happiest of Birthdays and the Merriest of Christmases all rolled into one if the Browns throw a few million dollars at him as a PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL GM.

CHRIST ON A PONY.


100% agreement.

Look I'm not fawning over Ferentz as an NFL coach but I will damn sure like the idea of him and Pioli over Mangini and his hand-picked GM (what gives Mangini the leverage to even ask for a GM???) any-fuckin-day.

This whole situation is an utter mess and we got our slap-dick, soccer-lovin owner to blame.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Earle » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:23 am

Maybe some are scared that Mangina will pass over Curry another Wimbley clone.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:54 pm

Here's my main issue with the Mangini/Kok team...the guys are good friends. Good friends tend to agree on a lot of stuff. So if one of them decides Gerrard Warren (or his 2009 equivilant) is the right pick in the draft, there is no one to talk them out of it and actually select LaDanian Tomlinson.

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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Jennifer » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:29 am

George Kokinis is very interested in being the Browns' next general manager, and the Ravens director of pro personnel has been waiting for a chance to build a franchise with someone such as Eric Mangini, a coach he respects. From talking to people in Baltimore who know Kokinis, they said he shares the same basic core values and approach to building a team as Mangini. But Kokinis will never leave his spot as the top assistant to GM Ozzie Newsome unless he is sure he will have the power to be a real general manager, not just one who signs off on any decision Mangini wants to make.


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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:53 am

Lead Pipe wrote:A point many are missing here is not when arguing about the possible Mangini hire is the fact you can't C-A-N-N-O-T have a head coach bring in his own GM. It's ass-backwards. It upsets your checks and balances.

Edify me if I'm wrong, but who brought in Pioli and the rest of the Patriots staff: Mumbles, Kraft, or was it mutual? Same thing in Pittsburgh: Was Colbert a Rooney hire, a Cowher hire, or a shared decision? What about Parcells in his New England, New York, and Dallas stops?
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Guest » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:19 am

You guys all such whiny bitches.

Lerner is in the best of situations. He got his boy Mangini.

If Mangini succeeds:

A wise corporate decision.

If Mangini fails:

You fire his ass and bring in a re-invigorated Cowher or Shanahan. Or maybe a Jeff Fisher if he gets fired.

This season is nothing but a test run. Mangini can win his claim, or he can get replaced.

With the options available, not sure what all y'all is bitchin' about.

Good luck, Eric. But if you fail, we will ditch you quicker than we ditched Charlie Frye.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Jennifer » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:42 am

By naming Eric Mangini as head coach, Browns owner Randy Lerner has backed himself into a corner in regards to finding a new general manager.

The assumption was that the job was earmarked for George Kokinis, Baltimore pro personnel director, as a result of the very first interview with Mangini. Kokinis and Mangini have been good friends since the days in 1994 that they shared a room in Cleveland while serving as gofers for Bill Belichick.

But now that Mangini has been hired and D-day is here for Kokinis -- he's supposed to be interviewed today -- there is a feeling gaining steam that Kokinis may develop a case of cold feet and stay with the Ravens.

Then what?


. . .if Lerner were to apply the same credentials to the GM job as he did in picking Mangini as coach, there is one candidate who would stand out.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.s ... is_sa.html

Grossi is absolutely right that there is one standout if the same criteria are used. Not only has Lerner not interviewed him but not a single poster on this board, as far as I know, has raised this person's name as a potential hire.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:40 am

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
Lead Pipe wrote:A point many are missing here is not when arguing about the possible Mangini hire is the fact you can't C-A-N-N-O-T have a head coach bring in his own GM. It's ass-backwards. It upsets your checks and balances.

Edify me if I'm wrong, but who brought in Pioli and the rest of the Patriots staff: Mumbles, Kraft, or was it mutual? Same thing in Pittsburgh: Was Colbert a Rooney hire, a Cowher hire, or a shared decision? What about Parcells in his New England, New York, and Dallas stops?


Look, it's all about understanding how it works. A GM who is subserviant to the coach does not work the majority of the time. Kokinis, who is nowhere close to getting a GM job but here, is going to go with whatever Mangini wishes, and I don't think you need the details on why this is a huge problem. THERE NEEDS TO BE A KNOWLEDGABLE VOICE TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE TEAM AND ORGANIZATION, NOT SOMEONE WHO FEELS THE NEED TO WIN TODAY TO SAVE HIS JOB.

Years ago, when the immortal Kevin Turner, the "saavy veteran" was playing linebacker on 3rd downs instead of Chip Banks, the change was made due to a front office to reminded them of what they had invested in a young talent and "implored" the HC to get him on the field. There are thousands of similiar examples like this since in the NFL, and if you're shutting this aspect out you lose way too much. Especially for an organization is a mess.

Impossible. No. But Madre, you might feel comfortable allowing Eric Mangini to make every move, play the players when he deems they should, with no regard to the future, only the now. With a hand picked GM you are ALWAYS in the now. In a league like this, it's a poor way to go. So, Eric Mangini might be the greatest, and we'll be OK. I wouldn't be comfortable with God as coach, with his own GM.

What is more LIKELY to happen is Mangini is a pretty good coach, who screws himself over by trying to do everything, and having no voice that will tell him otherwise.

But Madre, as usual, and unfortunately, we'll get to see. Pay attention to the moves between these two the next couple years, then get back to me.

P.S. I like Mangini as a coach.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby BDFD » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:59 am

Jennifer wrote:
. . .if Lerner were to apply the same credentials to the GM job as he did in picking Mangini as coach, there is one candidate who would stand out.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.s ... is_sa.html

Grossi is absolutely right that there is one standout if the same criteria are used. Not only has Lerner not interviewed him but not a single poster on this board, as far as I know, has raised this person's name as a potential hire.


:bunny: - Sorry, Jen. I've always wanted to post a pancake bunny. That was more directed at Grossi though. They must be pumping something into the ventilation system at the PD because Terry Pluto has said a few asinine things as of late as well.

IIRC he was just fired a couple of weeks ago for already sucking as the Browns' general manager.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Jennifer » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:07 pm

BDFD wrote:
Jennifer wrote:
. . .if Lerner were to apply the same credentials to the GM job as he did in picking Mangini as coach, there is one candidate who would stand out.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.s ... is_sa.html

Grossi is absolutely right that there is one standout if the same criteria are used. Not only has Lerner not interviewed him but not a single poster on this board, as far as I know, has raised this person's name as a potential hire.


:bunny: - Sorry, Jen. I've always wanted to post a pancake bunny. That was more directed at Grossi though. They must be pumping something into the ventilation system at the PD because Terry Pluto has said a few asinine things as of late as well.

IIRC he was just fired a couple of weeks ago for already sucking as the Browns' general manager.
Actually I thought what Grossi was saying was pretty clever. He wasn't advocating the use of such criteria indeed I think he was being ironic and half mocking Lerner for using them to hire a coach.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby pup » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:27 pm

Actually, what Grossi is saying is he is missing the boat about why Phil was fired.

Phil wasn't fired for the team he has built. He was fired for being a prick to RAC. For e-mailing a fan F$#% you. For covering the Winslow saga up.

Which explains why Randy is OK with going with Phil Jr. The personnel skills were not the major problem. The personal skills were.

I even believe that would Phil accept taking on a boss, to handle all the shit he was bad at, he would still be in town.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Jennifer » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:02 pm

Pup wrote:Actually, what Grossi is saying is he is missing the boat about why Phil was fired.

Phil wasn't fired for the team he has built. He was fired for being a prick to RAC. For e-mailing a fan F$#% you. For covering the Winslow saga up.

Which explains why Randy is OK with going with Phil Jr. The personnel skills were not the major problem. The personal skills were.

I even believe that would Phil accept taking on a boss, to handle all the shit he was bad at, he would still be in town.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Guest » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:21 pm

Pup wrote:Actually, what Grossi is saying is he is missing the boat about why Phil was fired.

Phil wasn't fired for the team he has built. He was fired for being a prick to RAC. For e-mailing a fan F$#% you. For covering the Winslow saga up.

Which explains why Randy is OK with going with Phil Jr. The personnel skills were not the major problem. The personal skills were.

I even believe that would Phil accept taking on a boss, to handle all the shit he was bad at, he would still be in town.


Agree. Although a good flogging was in order for the Ngata/Wimbley fiasco.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:24 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:Kokinis, who is nowhere close to getting a GM job but here, is going to go with whatever Mangini wishes, and I don't think you need the details on why this is a huge problem.

Wait. Kokinis (or another GM to be named later) answers to Mangini? Really? Everything I'm reading says that Lerner wants his GM and coach to be able to work well together. He hasn't said that he wants the GM to be the coach's water boy.

This goes back to my original question: Look at Cowher 'n Colbert and Pioli 'n Mumbles. These aren't top-down or down-up organizations, from where I'm sitting they look like partnerships. I don't think it was any coincidence that those were the first two guys that Lerner talked to - or that he got skittish when Pioli demanded all the power.

You're right in that the coach has the win first mentality, but that's why Lerner's going to a guy like Kokinis or Sundquist upstairs. They're not the scouting whiz, I imagine that's McCreight's job to lose at this point. Instead, they're guy at the top who goes 'Whoa there,' the Savage without the attitude.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby ramllov » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:03 pm

I guess the interview is happening now as we write about it.

I believe the interview is happening in New York, but I hope it is being conducted in Cleveland. If Kokinis is the guy, I want him to see as much of the Cleveland operation as possible to help him make his decision.

I doubt if he is an automatic, its your job, but if he interviews well he will be the guy.

I can only say, it is Lerner's money, his team and after six years of experiencing what he has experienced, he has a pretty good idea of what he wants.

Lerner was interview by a variety of radio stations. His comment was both the GM and HC will be reporting to him directly. He found the error of the HC reporting through the GM with the Crennel/Savage duo. It caused too many problems. Lerner is past the idea of having problems internally.

A bit of a joke, younger brother's comment on the signing of Mangini prior to signing a GM.

You would have to know my brother to appreciate the comment, but I will add it for the humor value.

It goes something to the success of the father who made the money and the weakness of the son who inherited the money. The wording of the original quote was better since I found myself laughing.

It was obvious that my brother did not like the hiring.

I have to admit, I did like the hire. I wanted Cowher, than I hoped they would consider Marty S. However, I understand the steps that Lerner has taken. It might not be following the book, but, I can understand what he is doing.

This is going to be fun to watch.
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Re: Browns to interview Ravens' Kokinis for GM

Unread postby mattvan1 » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:53 pm

ramllov wrote:
I can only say, it is Lerner's money, his team and after six years of experiencing what he has experienced, he has a pretty good idea of what he wants.

Lerner was interview by a variety of radio stations. His comment was both the GM and HC will be reporting to him directly.


Yes, he has an idea of what he wants. Doen't make it correct, but it's his team he's entitled to do what he wants.

As far as both the GM and HC reporting directly to him, as opposed to an experienced President of Football Operations, is a red flag for me. A huge, 100 yard by 52 yard red flag, that screams dysfunction.
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