Text Size

Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

"Lebron outduels Pierce"

Talk Cavs hoops and other items from the NBA here.

Moderators: peeker643, swerb, pup, papacass

"Lebron outduels Pierce"

Unread postby HoodooMan » Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:56 pm

Could this be any less true?

That 4th quarter was as clear a picture as I've seen of the gap between the kind of player I'm hoping Lebron develops into and the kind of player Lebron still is. Paul Pierce wanted the ball, he was aggressive with it everytime he touched it, and he kicked LBJ's ass possession after possession. On the other hand, Lebron's passing the ball around and being the good teammate, except for the few times when he decided to hold onto the ball for 10+ seconds before jacking up a low percentage shot from the perimeter.

I'm still of the opinion that conclusions of this type shouldn't be drawn until you see how a player responds to the vastly increased level of competition in the NBA playoffs, but it's getting difficult to keep my mind open when I see Lebron take the wrong approach (IMO) to these situations time after time after time in the regular season.

Nice dunk, though. Real nice.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby swerb » Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:31 pm

LeBron got the win, and played with our outplayed Pierce IMO in every period but the 4th, including the two OT stanzas.

You also have to remember that Pierce is playing with alot less supporting talent than LeBron. Wally is still adapting to the system there, and they have no one else.

LeBron is just 21, and still has alot of work to do when it comes to finishing out games and defensive consistency. Pierce is a 6-7 year vet, that has no one around him, and knew he had essentially a week off after last nights game. He always tries to oneup LeBron, and was gunnin from the start. He played a fantastic game last night, offensively.

But in the end, LeBron lit him up for 44, 12, and 11 ... and fouled him out in 2 OT, and then finished them off the next time down court, with Pierce reduced to the pine.
User avatar
swerb
JoBu's bee-yotch
 
Posts: 17876
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:04 pm
Location: Twinsburg, OH
Favorite Player: Mango Hab
Least Favorite Player: Bob LaMonte

Unread postby furls » Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:10 pm

They both had pretty gaudy numbers and LeBron got the win, therefore, I would probably have to agree that there is some substance to that headline.

What is up with all the "LeBron hate"?

That dude is only 21 years old and in his 3rd NBA season. Hell, Jordan didn't lead the Bulls to their first title until he was 27 and in his 7th NBA season. Jesus, cut LBJ some slack.... I mean, he is pretty good and stuff.

Mike
User avatar
furls
Buckeye Insider
 
Posts: 6404
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Chic Harley
Least Favorite Player: Desmond Howard

Unread postby HoodooMan » Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:28 pm

Furls wrote:What is up with all the "LeBron hate"?

That dude is only 21 years old and in his 3rd NBA season. Hell, Jordan didn't lead the Bulls to their first title until he was 27 and in his 7th NBA season. Jesus, cut LBJ some slack.... I mean, he is pretty good and stuff.

Mike


He is pretty good and stuff.

But at this point in his career, how would you project his future? Closer to Vince Carter/Tracy McGrady or MJ? Although I hope I'm wrong, right now I think the former is much more likely than the latter. I'd even say Kobe at his advanced age (at least relative to Bron) has a better shot of ascending to a level of MJ-lite than LeBron does. Same for Dwayne Wade (did you see him close out Detroit last week?).

As immense of a talent as Bron is, and for all his supposed knowledge of basketball history etc, he has an....ummm....interesting approach to close games down the stretch. Getting a Vince Carter/Tracy McGrady is nice (and to be fair, he brings a little more to the table than these two, on the boards in particular), but when he was sold as The Chosen One, it's still a little disappointing. And it's going to get a lot more disappointing if we're watching a player like Dwayne Wade send Bron home in the playoffs every year for the next decade.

I still hope he can grow into that kind of player, but I sure wouldn't bet on it.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby yargs7 » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:17 pm

Expecting Lebron to be at the same level as Jordan, Kobe, or even Dwayne Wade at this point is ridiculous. The kid JUST turned 21. He lit up the world champs for 44 and then posts 42 and a triple double in his next game. What people tend to forget is that defense, just like offense, is a team effort too. The Cavs are trying to find some continuity and identity at both ends of the court. Once this team grows up a little and devevlops some chemistry, Lebron's game will get even better. Give him some time. Sheesh.
"You win with people"

-W.W. "Woody" Hayes
User avatar
yargs7
College Football Nut
 
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:05 am
Location: Austintown, OH

Unread postby HoodooMan » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:16 pm

yargs7 wrote:Expecting Lebron to be at the same level as Jordan, Kobe, or even Dwayne Wade at this point is ridiculous.


I'm not saying he should already be what Kobe is today or what MJ was in '92. I'm saying that what I've seen so far has me doubting he'll ever get there. There's a difference.

And why exactly is it "ridiculous" to expect Lebron to be at the same level as Dwayne Wade? I mean, do we have to wait for a player who's younger than Lebron to come into the league and excel before we can start to criticize LBJ? For how many years are Cleveland fans going to go with the "The kid just turned 2_ card"? And what are the odds that when all's said & done that "The Kid just turned 2_" echoes "Tim Couch is not the problem. Get him a supporting cast, and he'll be fine"?
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby steviedifranco » Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:15 am

Regarding that Pierce/James matchup, I was getting sick to my stomach because of all the crap the refs were calling. Pierce was slamming into defenders, possibly enough to call offensive fouls, but nowhere near a defensive foul, yet he kept getting to the line. He fouled out in 2OT, but he should have fouled out in the 4th quarter. When a guy plays at home like that, he gets the benefit of the calls and thats why he put up such good numbers and kept Boston close.

And whats this garbage about Wade being better than LeBron? Thats just crap. What do Kobe and Wade have in common? They both had Shaq when they were on good teams. Is that just by chance?

The one thing Wade does have that LeBron doesn't is a good defense around him. We can't stop teams on defense to save our life, but the Heat are very tough inside, even when they use their bench. If our defense gave up 5 fewer points per night, how many more games will we have won?

LeBron is the greatest thing to happen to Cleveland sports, and you doubters need to open your eyes. What kind of a player are you waiting for?
User avatar
steviedifranco
Site Admin
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:00 am

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:40 am

steviedifranco wrote:And whats this garbage about Wade being better than LeBron? Thats just crap. What do Kobe and Wade have in common? They both had Shaq when they were on good teams. Is that just by chance?


So if Z averaged 3 more pts and 2 more rebounds a game this year, Lebron would have Wade's killer instinct?

And yeah, Wade's better than Lebron right now. So's Kobe.

Lebron has a KG-like ability to do everything on the floor (except defend, but I expect that to improve), but for a perimeter player, without that killer instinct, it doesn't mean jack.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby consigliere » Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:52 am

I think it is definitely fair to pick on Lebron a little. When you are labelled as The Chosen One, you better be near perfect. Lebron has done a great job of improving his offensive skills, namely his shooting, the past two years. His defense is still lacking, and being a great defender is what will ultimately decide if he is up to MJs level....or if he really is another Vince Carter/McGrady type.

Right now, I think the best comparison of what I think Lebron will be is Dominique Wilkins.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby furls » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:00 am

I don't think there is a fair Lebron comparison. The Dominique comparison is sort of on the money, but at NO point in his career did "Nique" average more than 1/2 the number of assists that LBJ has. LBJ has averaged 6.6 Assists per game over his career and is averaging 7.0 this year. LBJ has similar rebounding numbers and has outscored "Nique" through his first three years 25.8 to 22.1.

LeBron is a serviceable defender right now and I think that is an aspect of his game that is improving, hell he ranks 9th right now in steals. Every year this guy gets better. He does not really seem to be getting much credit for that. This year he added that outside game.

For how many years are Cleveland fans going to go with the "The kid just turned 2_ card"? And what are the odds that when all's said & done that "The Kid just turned 2_" echoes "Tim Couch is not the problem. Get him a supporting cast, and he'll be fine"?


well, remember that about 14months ago he was a "1_". Seriously, I am not going to be sitting here saying the same stuff when he is 27 or something. The KID is 21 years old. When MJ was 21 he was averaging 19.2 points per game for UNC. Were you guys criticizing him then? I cannot think of a single out of high school kid that has made as much a difference as fast as he has. Hell, Kobe did not put up "Lebron-like" numbers until his 5th full season (a year that actually featured Shaq more than Kobe).

So if Z averaged 3 more pts and 2 more rebounds a game this year, Lebron would have Wade's killer instinct?


are you seriously trying to compare Z to shaq? I personally think that the most important advantage that D-Wade and Kobe have had over shaq is COACHING. Pat Riley/Stan Van Gundy and Phil Jackson vs. Mike Brown/Paul Silas? No contest. Give Lebron Phil Jackson and the triangle and watch him grow. Mike Brown might evolve into a good head coach, but right now I am unimpressed. The Cavs seem undisciplined and confused and there really does not seem to be any consistant scheme to what they do.

He was "blessed" with this heir apparent of the NBA title, and I don't think that he has done anything to cause me to think that he is not. He is a 21 year old kid who is LEADING a bunch of guys with 5-10 more years of experience. He is a phenomenal team player and I while I would like to see him take the decisive shot more readily; I would not change the team player aspect of his game. That is EXACTLY what makes him better than Dominique Wilkins was at any point in his career.
User avatar
furls
Buckeye Insider
 
Posts: 6404
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Chic Harley
Least Favorite Player: Desmond Howard

Unread postby yargs7 » Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:42 pm

The first thing we all need to realize is there is NEVER EVER going to be another Michael Jordan. Period. So I think all the comparisons to MJ need to end right here with Lebron.


Secondly, I think the kid has more than lived up to the hype. His knowledge if the game is far beyond his age and experience level. He is able to see the court extremely well, and he can score pretty much whenever he wants. His downfall is that he may be a little too unselfish, but my god, Kobe is a ballhog and he catches Hell for it.

IMO Lebron will win at least two championships before its said and done. Whether or not it is in Cleveland is really up to the Cavs front office to decide.
"You win with people"

-W.W. "Woody" Hayes
User avatar
yargs7
College Football Nut
 
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:05 am
Location: Austintown, OH

Unread postby consigliere » Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:23 pm

Yep, there will never be another Jordan. But, I think the "comparisons" are more to Jordan as a complete player and the killer instinct he had.

Kobe has it, Lebron doesn't. It remains to be seen if/when he'll get it.

Right now, I take Kobe over Lebron......but they are the top 2 guys in the game.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:30 pm

Furls wrote:I cannot think of a single out of high school kid that has made as much a difference as fast as he has.


I can. Amare Stoudemire.

And comparing Lebron & Amare's starts to KG & Kobe's, I wonder whether the only reason KG & Kobe didn't make as immediate of an impact was their need to develop physically.

are you seriously trying to compare Z to shaq?


Not really. Just pointing out that there isn't such a huge gap in production between the two to help make the point that Shaq's presence doesn't have much to do with what Wade's accomplishing in Miami.

How much of it can be attributed to coaching is more difficult to quantify, so I'm not really sure how to answer that point. Maybe if the Cavaliers would have done what they should have done and pursued Larry Brown both times he was available when they were hiring, Lebron would be a more disciplined player on both sides of the ball. However, because he's the all holy Chosen One, I have to wonder even with LB's clout whether ownership would have allowed him to go at Lebron as hard as he typically does with his players. Because as everyone in Cleveland knows, making Lebron angry is certain to bring on the apocalypse or something. I doubt, though, that Larry or anyone else could nuture a mindset that just doesn't appear to be there with this guy; the IT that MJ had, that Kobe seems to have to a lesser degree, and Wade seems to be showing more and more every day.

He is a phenomenal team player and I while I would like to see him take the decisive shot more readily; I would not change the team player aspect of his game. That is EXACTLY what makes him better than Dominique Wilkins was at any point in his career.


It's a difficult balance to strike, when to be selfless and when to be selfish. But I don't understand how anyone who grew up watching and idolizing Michael Jordan the way LBJ did doesn't have a better handle on this. The only way it makes sense to me is in thinking that he simply lacks the ultra-competitiveness found in many of the game's great players.

The Spurs have shown that you don't necessarily need that kind of player as the centerpiece of your team to win it all, but I'm not sure how relevant of a comparison it is when you're talking about an interior player vs. a perimeter player.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:36 pm

Consigliere wrote:Right now, I take Kobe over Lebron......but they are the top 2 guys in the game.


You wouldn't take Wade over Lebron right now?

All things considered, if I'm the Miami Heat, there isn't a single player in the league I'd trade Dwayne Wade straight up for right now. And after him, Kobe & Lebron are near the top, but so are KG and Amare and Duncan. I'm not quite sure where Lebron fits into that group. Probably ahead of Duncan because of age, but maybe behind the rest.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby furls » Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:35 pm

Please try to compare apples to apples

I can. Amare Stoudemire.


First of all, at best Amare's numbers are fairly comparable to Lebron's, a couple rebounds for a couple of assists.

Last I checked Amare had the reigning MVP of the NBA on his team to help him out a little, but I guess Eric Snow is pretty much the same as Steve Nash (sarcasm). I am pretty sure that the Suns would make the playoffs without Amare, oh wait, they are going to this year.

LeBron is in a unique situation. He is the only solid player on this team except maybe Drew Gooden. He is personally carrying this team into the playoffs, and yet there is something that he is not doing? Will he develop the "killer instinct" only time will tell. Whether or not he is the best player in the NBA or the next MJ is debatable, but what is not is that he is among the truly elite players in the NBA and he is in his 3rd year. Look at who you are comparing him to, McGrady, Carter, Kobe, Wade, and Garnett.... i wouldnt think any of those was an insult.
User avatar
furls
Buckeye Insider
 
Posts: 6404
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Chic Harley
Least Favorite Player: Desmond Howard

Unread postby jdrake10 » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:11 pm

I totally disagree with HoodooMan's original post. This game was one of the best I have seen from Lebron. He included everyone else early and took over in key situations. He got to the basket and either scored or got fouled on every key drive. He would not be denied. Even with some of the rest of the Cavs not playing their best games, he would not let the Cavs lose. Who does that remind you of?
Don't get me wrong, Pierce had a solid game obviously and he was in the zone much of the second half. But James had 2 key stops on defense that game. At the end of regulation the refs bailed out Pierce after excellent D by James. That call put the game into OT when it should not have been. But Lebron did not pout. He kept playing solid and made key shot, after key pass, after key shot thoroughout both OTs.
The only mistake Lebron made down the stretch is he missed one potentially big free throw in one of the OTs. It did not cost the Cavs fortunately. But the experience Lebron is gaining cannot be measured. He is learning from every mistake he makes and I would wager he will not miss the next big foul shot he has.
jdrake10
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:08 pm

Unread postby HoodooMan » Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:23 am

Furls wrote:Please try to compare apples to apples


I was responding to your point that, "I cannot think of a single out of high school kid that has made as much a difference as fast as he has." Amare came straight out of high school, and he's made a hell of a difference pretty fast. Yeah, they play different positions on different teams, but I don't think we're quite talking apples & oranges here.

Whether or not he is the best player in the NBA or the next MJ is debatable, but what is not is that he is among the truly elite players in the NBA and he is in his 3rd year. Look at who you are comparing him to, McGrady, Carter, Kobe, Wade, and Garnett.... i wouldnt think any of those was an insult.


And I'm not trying to insult him. There's little doubt in my mind that Lebron will be one of the Top 5 players or so in the league for years to come, but the difference between #1 and #2 or #3 and so on is significant. Clyde Drexler was an amazing player, clearly a Top 5 talent in his day, who simply couldn't out-amaze Isaiah & the Pistons or MJ & the Bulls and didn't get his ring until he left Portland and rode Hakeem's coattails.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby furls » Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:33 pm

Amare's stats:

YR TM G GS MIN FG FG% 3P 3P% FT FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
02-03 Pho 82 71 31.3 4.8-10.1 .472 0.0-0.1 .200 3.9-5.9 .661 0.8 1.1 2.3 3.3 3.0 5.7 8.7 1.0 13.5
03-04 Pho 55 53 36.8 7.5-15.7 .475 0.0-0.1 .200 5.6-7.9 .713 1.2 1.6 3.2 3.4 2.9 6.2 9.1 1.4 20.6
04-05 Pho 80 80 36.1 9.3-16.7 .559 0.0-0.2 .188 7.3-9.9 .733 1.0 1.6 2.4 3.5 2.7 6.2 8.9 1.6 26.0
G GS MIN FG FG% 3P 3P% FT FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
Totals 217 204 34.5 7.1-14.0 .511 0.0-0.1 .194 5.6-7.9 .708 0.9 1.4 2.6 3.4 2.9 6.0 8.9 1.3 19.9

I really only see one good year on there and that is the year that Steve Nash won the MVP, so I dont buy the argument that he has made as big an impact as LBJ. LBJ has taken a Cavs team that won 17 games in 02 to a team that will probably win 45-50 in 2005. The Cavs have not added any real talent (Hughes has been injured all year) so a huge portion of that 28-33 game swing has got to be attributed to LBJ. That is pretty damn significant and like I said, there is not another kid that has come in and made anywhere near that kind of difference right out of high school.

I think the Clyde Drexler comparison is fair in that he was a terrific player that was surrounded with mediocre talent. Clyde, like LBJ, was forced to carry the Blazers year after year. That just helps to illustrate my point that whether or not the Cavs win championships does not rely soley on the play of LBJ. Just as the play of Michael Jordan by himself was not enough to carry the Bulls nor was the play of Wilt Chamberlin alone enough to win championships. One player does not win a championship.

Jordan had a perenial all-star assistant and a solid supporting cast that was still able to win 55 games without him after he went to play baseball. Without the same type of support for LBJ the Cavs will come up short also.
User avatar
furls
Buckeye Insider
 
Posts: 6404
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Chic Harley
Least Favorite Player: Desmond Howard


Return to Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: gbot and 2 guests

Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: gbot and 2 guests