Text Size

No Holds Barred

Should the LLWS really get this much coverage?

Need to get something off your chest? Have a topic that doesn't fit one of the other forums? Rant away in here. Mature audiences only, not for the easily offended.

Moderators: peeker643, swerb, Ziner

Should the LLWS really get this much coverage?

Unread postby SteelersStillSuck » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:55 pm

Not questioning that something like the American Final and the World Final shouldn't be televised, but isn't it just getting a bit ridicolous? I personally think that some of the High School Football matchups that happen year and year out should be televised, if 12 year old little leaguers get this much attention. I think matchups like McKinley-Massilon, The Holy War or some of the rivalries over in Texas would be pretty cool to see on National Television. Now mind you I'm not dissing on Little League, I think its very important to develop character and the like, but ESPN using them to put on SportsCenter and things like that is getting a bit ridiculous.
Swerb wrote:Tough to win when you have the worst head coach in the league and a QB that stares into his fridge every morning for a half hour cause the orange juice says "concentrate" on it.


Woody Hayes wrote:Without winners, there wouldn't even be any god damned civilization."
User avatar
SteelersStillSuck
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:31 pm

Unread postby WarAdmiral » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:07 pm

I agree, and I get sick to my stomach everytime I see one of these 12 year olds throwing breaking balls. I would like to know how many over the years have played D1, or professional baseball as pitchers?
User avatar
WarAdmiral
 
Posts: 603
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Mantua, oh

Unread postby SteelersStillSuck » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:35 pm

WarAdmiral wrote:I agree, and I get sick to my stomach everytime I see one of these 12 year olds throwing breaking balls. I would like to know how many over the years have played D1, or professional baseball as pitchers?




Chris Drury - NHL Player (1989 World Series Champion, 2001 Stanley Cup Champion)/ Trumbull, CT - 1989 LLWS MVP, 1998 Hobey Baker Award Winner, 1999 Calder Memorial Trophy Winner

# Jason Bay - MLB Player (1990 World Series) /Trail, British Columbia

# Dwight Gooden - Former MLB Player (1979 World Series, 1986 MLB World Series Champion) / Tampa, Florida

# Jason Varitek - MLB Player (1984 World Series, 1994 NCAA CWS, 2004 & 2007 MLB World Series Champion) / Altamonte Springs, Florida

# Gary Sheffield - MLB Player (1980 World Series, 1997 MLB World Series Champion) / Tampa, Florida 1992 MLB Batting Champ, 7-Time NL All-Star, 2-Time AL All-Star, 5-Time Silver Slugger

# Brian Sipe - Former NFL quarterback and 1980 NFL MVP (1961 World Series) / El Cajon, California


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Lea ... rld_Series

Again..I think that tne finals would be worth showing..but like the southeast qualifier or something is really stupid to show.
Swerb wrote:Tough to win when you have the worst head coach in the league and a QB that stares into his fridge every morning for a half hour cause the orange juice says "concentrate" on it.


Woody Hayes wrote:Without winners, there wouldn't even be any god damned civilization."
User avatar
SteelersStillSuck
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:31 pm

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:41 pm

Yes. I love watching the LLWS. It's the way the game is supposed to be played. People loving the game, playing for the fun of winning, and to be remembered not for the money or for the gaudy offensive stats, but for being a champion. It's a pure game, barely interrupted by overzealous parents.

No offense to either of you two, but I mostly think that people who hate the LLWS are jealous of those kids. They're getting to partake in the experience of a lifetime. Williamsport has been synonymous with the LLWS for so long and going there is such a thrill for these kids.

ESPN has always taken a human interest angle to their sports, especially in the last 15 years or so. It's very easy for people to identify themselves with these kids and maybe even revert back to their childhood. People can't relate to multi-million dollar athletes pissing and moaning that they don't make enough. But the joy of kids- now that makes for good TV. It's a feel good story in a money-hungry industry. Why shouldn't ESPN milk it for that?

I watched last night's Lake Charles, LA v. Richmond, TX game and thoroughly enjoyed it. I've watched many of the games over the last few years. To watch those kids for Richmond blow a lead in the 6th and the 7th to eventually lose on a walk-off wild pitch, it's riveting TV, even if it is just kids.

I guess I just understand the human perspective. You deal with everything going on around you. Jobs, relationships, politics, etc., and then you watch these kids. You envy them. They're playing a game, on the biggest stage of its kind.

I don't watch every game religiously, but it makes for good TV and I'm glad that it gets the press that it does.
A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe
User avatar
skatingtripods
Sloth Duncan
 
Posts: 14346
Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 12:27 pm
Location: Cleveland
Favorite Player: Mike Aviles
Least Favorite Player: Every Detroit Tiger

Unread postby CarolinaTribe » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:24 pm

Skating Tripods wrote:They're getting to partake in the experience of a lifetime. Williamsport has been synonymous with the LLWS for so long and going there is such a thrill for these kids.


I agree. These kids will remember this forever. Why not give 12 year olds a chance to be on ESPN? They don't take it for granted.
User avatar
CarolinaTribe
 
Posts: 614
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:16 pm

Unread postby dmiles » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:53 am

My son has played travel ball with several kids who made it all the way to the western regional finals last year before losing in the deciding game for Williamsport. (Solana Beach). So I've gotten to know 6 or 7 of the parents, and everyone of them confess that it was the greatest time they could ever possibly imagine. The kids generally lost their first game at every new tournament (we have a many levels in SoCal) and had to fight through the losers's bracket to win. Here you must win districts, then sectionals, then sub-divisional, then division, and finally sub-state, which is basically LA area against SD area. The LL pitch count rules makes that kind of thing even harder but it is a lot of games. I made the trip twice to watch them in San Bernadino, the last game of course being televised and it was quite a spectacle.

As far as 12 year olds throwing breaking balls, the bigger danger to their arms is overuse. Heck some of these kids are damn near as big as they'll ever be and are only dominant right now due to early growth spurts. This might be the only time the kids get to dominate so why not let them?

I enjoy watching the games.
User avatar
dmiles
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:36 am
Location: San Diego, CA

Unread postby General » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:47 am

I love those games. It allows me to transport back to my "Glory Days" when a much thinner and less jaded fella was out there runnin around for a shot to be like Greg Nettles and play MLB. Of course it all washed away in a Cat 5 torrent of Stroh's beer and the creeping reality that "no, I can't hit that damn curveball, and you better go to college because you need to work with your head and not your back....blah, blah, blah". My remote always goes to the table when I run across a LL game. :-) :smile: :)
Browns are an irrelevant and comical organization
User avatar
General
 
Posts: 1848
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:35 pm
Location: Pensacola
Favorite Player: Paul Warfield
Least Favorite Player: 537 Idiots in DC

Unread postby pup » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:16 am

As far as 12 year olds throwing breaking balls, the bigger danger to their arms is overuse.


dmiles - You know this game too well to actually believe this. And I hope it is not a thought you provide to the youngsters in your area.

The only time overuse becomes an issue is if it is wrapped around throwing curveballs/sliders. Their muscles, ligaments and tendons are not fully developed, causing quicker and easier inflammation, causing more problems.

I have never seen, heard, read or caught wind of a 12 year old having arm issues and not had this exchange:

Me: "you throwing curveballs?"
him: No
Me: you sure?
him: well, only 1 or 2 a game.

First. What is the point of oneor two a game. After that, WTF are these coaches thinking. It gets back to the bat debate we had on hear a while back. MOST are not coaching for the kids. To develop skills and fundamentals. They are coaching because they fell short and now are going to make it to the show with one of their 12 year olds.
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Unread postby WarAdmiral » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:02 am

I have seen a youngster "break" the growth plate in his elbow. It is something, akin to Thiesman on Monday night football. Not the visual, but the unbearable pain the young boy was in, made me very sick to my stomach.

I have seen it in Hotstove baseball with 9 and 10 year olds. Picture in the record courier last week showed the starting pitcher for the state champion finishing of a slider.

If these teams want to have a chance, they have to throw the breaking ball. A cutter and fastball won't get it done against the elite level batters.

I do think these boys will be throwing breaking balls, regardless of television. It just bothers me, when I see it, thats all.
User avatar
WarAdmiral
 
Posts: 603
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Mantua, oh

Unread postby General » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:08 am

Blame whoever you want, but there is an age-old drive to be a grown up. So be it snappin off curves at 11, having sex at 13, drinkin' or smokin in the adolescent years or maybe just using a few choice swear words, it will continue. People want to win or be the best so they are always looking for that edge. Not sayin' it is right, but I don't think it has anything to do with TV coverage.
Browns are an irrelevant and comical organization
User avatar
General
 
Posts: 1848
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:35 pm
Location: Pensacola
Favorite Player: Paul Warfield
Least Favorite Player: 537 Idiots in DC

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:38 pm

Let them throw curveballs, but teach them how. Make sure to use a stretch cord routine and throw long toss before each bullpen session and ice and stretch every day during the season. These kids are only 2 years away from high school ball (yes, it is a big 2 years), but they need to learn to throw breaking pitches for strikes. Overuse is a bigger issue then curveballs. The coach should be calling the pitches anyway, so obviously use the curve sparingly, especially early in the season.

I love the LLWS. The coverage is great, and it beats the hell out of the olympics.
This natural coozy comes free with every Miller Time
Image
User avatar
Erie Warrior
Goose Slayer
 
Posts: 6430
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:50 pm
Location: Hampton, VA
Favorite Player: 1995 Indians
Least Favorite Player: Global Warming

Unread postby WarAdmiral » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:56 pm

I am trying to figure out, how the Ohio boy hit a home run like that on a half swing. I'm glad he did, but damn they must be rolling their bats.
User avatar
WarAdmiral
 
Posts: 603
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Mantua, oh

Unread postby dmiles » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:16 am

Pup I am merely parroting what Dr. Andrews has stated. If you google Andrews overuse curve you can find the references.

What he's saying is that year round travel ball and playing multiple games per day are what's killing arms moreso than curve balls.

Having said that I don't teach the curve, though my son throws a football curve. I am thinking of nipping that in the bud too for fear they make more of a slider release.

I don't have all the answers, though I am starting lean towards the way of Lincecum's dad, and the Japanese think, which is to say our kids might not be throwing enough.

I recall playing hot stove and pitching a complete 8 inning game 10, and we threw all day throughout the summer. I had hardcore taped up whiffle ball games, and I used to go out and pitch a rubber ball up against our "pump house" for hours on end. Never a lick of arm trouble. Starting throwing the slurve at 14. By the time I was HS age I was busy doing other things and not throwing as much so my fastball suffered.
User avatar
dmiles
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:36 am
Location: San Diego, CA

Unread postby pup » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:25 am

dmiles wrote:Pup I am merely parroting what Dr. Andrews has stated. If you google Andrews overuse curve you can find the references.

What he's saying is that year round travel ball and playing multiple games per day are what's killing arms moreso than curve balls.

Having said that I don't teach the curve, though my son throws a football curve. I am thinking of nipping that in the bud too for fear they make more of a slider release.

I don't have all the answers, though I am starting lean towards the way of Lincecum's dad, and the Japanese think, which is to say our kids might not be throwing enough.

I recall playing hot stove and pitching a complete 8 inning game 10, and we threw all day throughout the summer. I had hardcore taped up whiffle ball games, and I used to go out and pitch a rubber ball up against our "pump house" for hours on end. Never a lick of arm trouble. Starting throwing the slurve at 14. By the time I was HS age I was busy doing other things and not throwing as much so my fastball suffered.


I will be honest, this is the first I have ever heard of Andrews thinking the overuse is the problem. Frankly, I find it hard to believe. Obviously, he is a higher authority. It just makes no sense to this commoner brain.

I use to throw. A lot. Everyday as a matter of fact. Long toss. Running bases. Wiffle ball. Throw into that net the ball bounced back.

And it turned into a pretty solid power arm. And I never got tired. I was rarely sore the day after a start. Until 3 things:

1. And I place this as the biggest reason for my arm injury. My college pitching coach wasn't the best. And he believed in only one philosophy. "Down angle". So the day I got there, after my first bullpen session, I was told "we do not do drop and drive here". Completely revamped my mechanics over my freshman year.

2. The next two are both functions of that. The first being I spent soo much timing on "forms and mechanics" I barely threw. Working in front of mirrors and such. To top it off, when the adjustment didn't go smoothly, he decided I needed to be a submarine closer, lol.

3. After limited work as a frosh, I talked to the HC and raised the possibility of not coming back as a soph because of this. He greenlighted me coming home and going back to the drop and drive style. I did and quickly returned to form. Unfortuately, when I got back for fall ball, they had one other request. Drop my curveball and learn the "football slider". My arm angle took a beating all fall.

I started the year as the #1 for the third ranked D1 Juco in the country. In my 4th start, I threw the football slider and lights went out. Instantly lost feeling in my forearm.

I guess what I am saying is. The best thing, IMO, for an arm is to throw a lot, get clean solid mechanics early and don't make any drastic changes after you get them down. As with most athletics, muscle memory is the strong key. Your muscles do not like change. Maybe if you are working with a top of the line type pitching coach, he would know the correct approach to tweaking something being out of line. But complete overhauls are never a good thing.

I don't like the football curve/slider, but I may be bias since that was the pitch that effectively ended any shot at a career. It just tends to lead to dropping your arm angle and causing issues with the rest of your pitches.

Only a couple of cents worth, and it is only from a washed up never was, but it is what it is.
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:44 am

The arm slot for that pitch is tough. It's something I wouldn't teach a teenager, but that should be used if the natural arm action allows for it. A 12-6 curve can be taught, and isn't as tough on the arm. As long as the kids are taught to set the pitch at the top, keep the elbow high, and release with the knuckles facing the batter, they should be fine. I do believe conditioning is the most important thing. I have them start throwing at the end of Janurary for a March season opener.
This natural coozy comes free with every Miller Time
Image
User avatar
Erie Warrior
Goose Slayer
 
Posts: 6430
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:50 pm
Location: Hampton, VA
Favorite Player: 1995 Indians
Least Favorite Player: Global Warming

Unread postby pup » Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:21 am

I will continue to disagree.

A 12 year old's muscles, tendons and ligaments are not fully developed. They should be throwing nothing that involves a different arm angle, hand position, or release point. Stretching will do very little to inhibit these type of injuries. Not stretching will make them worse, but stretching will not prevent them.

You want a kid to have a shot at doing something after the age of 18, their youth should be spent learning location and changing speeds. Nothing else. A high school pitcher that can throw a good changeup without changing arm slot, speed is a 100 times better asset than a good with a filthy hook. And he is better prepared for the next level.

A kid with a great curveball and has to learn a changeup will struggle. Once you have the 2 and 4 seam fastball down with locations to all 4 quadrants, slide them into mixing in the changeup to both sides. I promise. That kid will win more games in high school than the Johnny Curveball.
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:39 am

Locating and changing speeds is king. Even for the pros, ask Paul Byrd. And I'm not suggesting 30 hooks a game, just that the fundamentals of the pitch should be taught around the 12 year mark. Even if it's just in the bullpen during practice, I think they should get a feel for the pitch. I also think it helps break the mind set that every pitch has to be thrown as hard as they can throw. More technique and less force can be a deadly combination. I respect your point of view, sir, and it should be taken into consideration for any coach.
This natural coozy comes free with every Miller Time
Image
User avatar
Erie Warrior
Goose Slayer
 
Posts: 6430
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:50 pm
Location: Hampton, VA
Favorite Player: 1995 Indians
Least Favorite Player: Global Warming

Unread postby pup » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:32 pm

(handshake)
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Unread postby dmiles » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:23 am

I agree pup more throwing not less. I think Andrews study alluded more to too many games in terms of overuse. Say a kid plays 4 games Saturday, two sunday at some big travel ball tournament. Sure maybe he only pitched 5-6 innings, but what was he doing the rest of the games? SS, Catcher, etc. Overuse as in too many games I think was the gist. However they want kids to rest too much. Taking a month or 2-3 weeks off of throwing is probably plenty. Do it once or twice a year for good healing.

Any story with Lincecum's dad is worth a read. I haven't been able to teach my kids the change because I never threw it. I relied on that silly slurve, which was really useless against a good hitter.

Many ways to grip a change but I haven't practiced them enough to be comfortable teaching it. I do tell the kids to throw a change sometimes when playing catch and practice using the exact same arm action as with the heater, but getting them to find the right grip is a challenge.
User avatar
dmiles
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:36 am
Location: San Diego, CA

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:04 am

Young kids with small hands, have them hold the change like a 4 seamer, but add a finger. The extra finger adds friction and slows the ball. Arm action is the same as a 4-seamer. Or same 3 finger placement, but hold the ball with the tips of the fingers. That will keep them from choking the ball without changing arm slot.

Big hands- circle change. Squeeze the circle for more down action.
This natural coozy comes free with every Miller Time
Image
User avatar
Erie Warrior
Goose Slayer
 
Posts: 6430
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:50 pm
Location: Hampton, VA
Favorite Player: 1995 Indians
Least Favorite Player: Global Warming


Return to No Holds Barred

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest