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Army Deserters

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Army Deserters

Unread postby jfiling » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:27 am

I'm against the war completely, but I have no respects for pieces of crap that sign up for the military, looking forward to all the benefits that service provides, and then run with their tails between their legs to Canada as soon as they are about to be deployed. I don't even believe in the death penalty, but I believe what these cowards are traitors, and the Constitution proscribes the death penalty for treason.
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Re: Army Deserters

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:32 am

jfiling wrote:I'm against the war completely, but I have no respects for pieces of crap that sign up for the military, looking forward to all the benefits that service provides, and then run with their tails between their legs to Canada as soon as they are about to be deployed. I don't even believe in the death penalty, but I believe what these cowards are traitors, and the Constitution proscribes the death penalty for treason.


so people who are army deserters are worse than people who shoot cops in the head 4 times?
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Unread postby swerb » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:36 am

We get it jfiling. You hate all cops, soldiers, and anyone else in positions of authority.

We don't need weekly updates on your anger. Start a blog.
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Unread postby Bill the Butcher » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:44 am

I'll have to slightly agree with jfiling here.

These people who sign up for the benefits, for something to do, or just for the label... and then flee. Sad. But I DO NOT believe they should be executed. Nobody deserves to be executed. Yea, I said it. Nobody. They will be dealt with by our creator (of everything, not just human beings).
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Unread postby jfiling » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:45 am

Rich,

Huh? There's a story on Drudge about how Canada is extraditing some coward who didn't want to deploy to Iraq. Not sure how you are carrying that to me hating all cops, soldiers, and whatever. Sorry I express opinions that aren't the same as the rest of the sheep around here, but your comment here is completely off base. But hey, it's your playground, and I shouldn't piss in the sand.
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Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:50 am

I hear a Phish reunion may be on tap for next summer. That's gotta take your mind off the daily grind and the minute-by-minute deterioration of personal freedoms and rights.

Follow the band across the country, smokin and living off mother nature. Impress some young, funky smelling idealist chicks. Treat yourself man.
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Unread postby swerb » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:54 am

jfiling wrote:Rich,

Huh? There's a story on Drudge about how Canada is extraditing some coward who didn't want to deploy to Iraq. Not sure how you are carrying that to me hating all cops, soldiers, and whatever. Sorry I express opinions that aren't the same as the rest of the sheep around here, but your comment here is completely off base. But hey, it's your playground, and I shouldn't piss in the sand.

It's just a new post every week with something derrgogatory about cops or soldiers. It's getting old.

As far as this most recent post, who would like someone that signs up for the military, looking forward to all the benefits that service provides, and then run with their tails between their legs to Canada as soon as they are about to be deployed?

I got no problem with opposing viewpoints. And no problem with you discussing the story on Drudge. But link it and discuss it if that's what you want to do. Not make some sweeping statement that it's impossible to disagree with that casts a negative light on the 99.9% of soldiers out there that do not fall in this camp.
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Unread postby jfiling » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:25 am

Sorry, Rich. I should have linked the article which probably would have put this more in context.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N15312247.htm

And Peeker, I'm not sure when left-wing hippies starting hating military deserters. You'll have to enlighten me on that.
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Unread postby Bayou Tribe » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:28 am

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Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:35 am

jfiling wrote:Sorry, Rich. I should have linked the article which probably would have put this more in context.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N15312247.htm

And Peeker, I'm not sure when left-wing hippies starting hating military deserters. You'll have to enlighten me on that.


Not sure where I said that. But if the weed is good enough and the guy providing it is compelling enough, they'll hate anyone in a uniform, awol or active. :lol:
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Unread postby Ziner » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:36 am

jfiling wrote: Sorry I express opinions that aren't the same as the rest of the sheep around here...


Did you ever consider the fact that we arent sheep because we do disagree on many things and perhaps your comments are so off base that it is something we can all agree on.

I believe it is is posts like this "Can we admit that some soldiers are just sick f***ers" that drive people nuts. What is the goal? to make us hate soldiers? I dont. I wont. You put yourself in that situation across the world, with out your family, in a new lifestyle and see how you act. Maybe you could get off your pedestal and realize that you judge the people who shouldnt be judged but give the benefit of the doubt to assholes like the guy who shoots the cop. Get it?
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Unread postby Bill the Butcher » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:50 am

How did the guy who shot the cop in the head 4 times get into this "conversation"?
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Unread postby Bayou Tribe » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:53 am

I believe it is is posts like this "Can we admit that some soldiers are just sick f***ers" that drive people nuts. What is the goal? to make us hate soldiers?


That's not even my main argument with this (which is awesome because it means I'm not a huge sheep like you, Ziner. yes! :lol: ). My thing is, if you are all for our troops (regardless of your feelings of the war, than post a good heartwarming story. Post something positive, there's a million great stories out there.
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Re: Army Deserters

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:05 pm

jfiling wrote:I'm against the war completely, but I have no respects for pieces of crap that sign up for the military, looking forward to all the benefits that service provides, and then run with their tails between their legs to Canada as soon as they are about to be deployed. I don't even believe in the death penalty, but I believe what these cowards are traitors, and the Constitution proscribes the death penalty for treason.


So deserting the military is grounds for capital punishment by you, but serial killers, child rapists, cop killers, and those who attempt or succeed in blowing up buildings can get away with life in prison with food, shelter, and daily exercise?

While I can understand, to an extent, your point about deserters, especially being someone who has always been in favor of the War on Terror, I can't figure out your strong position on this.
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Unread postby jfiling » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:32 pm

Look, I'm really sorry right now for even starting this thread. Honestly, I thought that I would find agreement that punishing military deserters would find support. This wasn't meant to be an attack on all troops, but I guess since I have a bit of a reputation it's going to be seen that way. I really don't see one post on this thread that attacks what I originally said, but I do see a lot that attack me. I agree that I don't understand how the guy who shot the cop got into this thread, bur that's my rep coming back to haunt me. As I've said in the past, and I'll find the links if I have to, I do really feel for the soldiers on the lines doing their jobs and facing death. Military deserters, not so much. I also think that soldier who threw the grenades into the tents near the start of the war, killing at least one soldier, deserved the death penalty. Those acts are treason, and the Constitution is clear on that matter. It's the only crime the Constitution strictly states deserves death. Anyway, I've probably rambled on enough to get a few other personal attacks. Sorry.
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Unread postby FUDU » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:56 pm

jfiling, you have made it known you are completely against this war, that's fine, hard to see a reason to disagree.

So by that logic of you disliking this war (and I assume most wars if not all) I gather you would not volunteer to fight in this war, if you actually could? Which is fine IMO, my point is not to judge you on this (that is your choice that you have a right to), but my point is what if this deserter decided he was against the war and no longer wanted to be a part of it? Once you sign that dotted line there is nothing you can do to change your situation, except take off, right?

So while you wish for others to respect your views on this war, and IMO others do respect your opinion on it, then if my example is the case with this guy why couldn't you respect his decision? It is still his right to decide that.

I imagine this will bring forth an Ali discussion, but it was not my intention.
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Unread postby jfiling » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:05 pm

FUDU wrote:jfiling, you have made it known you are completely against this war, that's fine, hard to see a reason to disagree.

So by that logic of you disliking this war (and I assume most wars if not all) I gather you would not volunteer to fight in this war, if you actually could? Which is fine IMO, my point is not to judge you on this (that is your choice that you have a right to), but my point is what if this deserter decided he was against the war and no longer wanted to be a part of it? Once you sign that dotted line there is nothing you can do to change your situation, except take off, right?

So while you wish for others to respect your views on this war, and IMO others do respect your opinion on it, then if my example is the case with this guy why couldn't you respect his decision? It is still his right to decide that.

I imagine this will bring forth an Ali discussion, but it was not my intention.


Actually, I did try to join the National Guard after the war began. Turns out they don't let people like me in. My son, who is about to turn 16, wants to join the military when he graduates high school. I am 100% behind that. The problem is, and I know because I was in the Army briefly in the 90s, is that you swear an oath when you enlist. I fully believe that when you take that oath, and pledge to follow all lawful orders of the Commander-in-Chief, that you must uphold it.

Also, while I haven't exactly been shy about my feelings about the war in Iraq, I do understand and respect that people who are both rational and intelligent feel that what we are doing there is good. If anyone wants to debate the merits of the war I'm game, but it usually degenerates into personal attacks and accusations of not supporting the troops. I think we should be doing more in Afghanistan, where currently and sadly more troops are dying than are in Iraq.
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Unread postby FUDU » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:17 pm

jfiling wrote:
FUDU wrote:jfiling, you have made it known you are completely against this war, that's fine, hard to see a reason to disagree.

So by that logic of you disliking this war (and I assume most wars if not all) I gather you would not volunteer to fight in this war, if you actually could? Which is fine IMO, my point is not to judge you on this (that is your choice that you have a right to), but my point is what if this deserter decided he was against the war and no longer wanted to be a part of it? Once you sign that dotted line there is nothing you can do to change your situation, except take off, right?

So while you wish for others to respect your views on this war, and IMO others do respect your opinion on it, then if my example is the case with this guy why couldn't you respect his decision? It is still his right to decide that.

I imagine this will bring forth an Ali discussion, but it was not my intention.


Actually, I did try to join the National Guard after the war began. Turns out they don't let people like me in. My son, who is about to turn 16, wants to join the military when he graduates high school. I am 100% behind that. The problem is, and I know because I was in the Army briefly in the 90s, is that you swear an oath when you enlist. I fully believe that when you take that oath, and pledge to follow all lawful orders of the Commander-in-Chief, that you must uphold it.

Also, while I haven't exactly been shy about my feelings about the war in Iraq, I do understand and respect that people who are both rational and intelligent feel that what we are doing there is good. If anyone wants to debate the merits of the war I'm game, but it usually degenerates into personal attacks and accusations of not supporting the troops. I think we should be doing more in Afghanistan, where currently and sadly more troops are dying than are in Iraq.


I can respect that opinion.

I don't have children, not married, but if I had a child right now and if by chance a draft was reinstated, and my child was not in agreement with going to this war, I am 95% positive I would help them do whatever it took to avoid it. That is how against this war, and these types of wars I am, and I am extremely patriotic. However if my child was OK with the war and was drafted or choose to volunteer I would support them. I am just not buying into the notion that we are defending our rights and freedoms with this war in Iraq.
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Unread postby jfiling » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:23 pm

FUDU wrote:I can respect that opinion.

I don't have children, not married, but if I had a child right now and if by chance a draft was reinstated, and my child was not in agreement with going to this war, I am 95% positive I would help them do whatever it took to avoid it. That is how against this war, and these types of wars I am, and I am extremely patriotic. However if my child was OK with the war and was drafted or choose to volunteer I would support them. I am just not buying into the notion that we are defending our rights and freedoms with this war in Iraq.


Don't get me wrong, if my son was of age and the draft was reinstated he would be on the next plane to Canada or Australia, unless he wanted to be drafted. Ideally he would either enlist or leave the country; I just see no point in being half-assed about it. I agree with everything you said, just wanted to clarify that point.
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Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:02 pm

jfiling wrote:
FUDU wrote:jfiling, you have made it known you are completely against this war, that's fine, hard to see a reason to disagree.

So by that logic of you disliking this war (and I assume most wars if not all) I gather you would not volunteer to fight in this war, if you actually could? Which is fine IMO, my point is not to judge you on this (that is your choice that you have a right to), but my point is what if this deserter decided he was against the war and no longer wanted to be a part of it? Once you sign that dotted line there is nothing you can do to change your situation, except take off, right?

So while you wish for others to respect your views on this war, and IMO others do respect your opinion on it, then if my example is the case with this guy why couldn't you respect his decision? It is still his right to decide that.

I imagine this will bring forth an Ali discussion, but it was not my intention.


Actually, I did try to join the National Guard after the war began. Turns out they don't let people like me in.


Can you explain to me, if you're willing, what exactly that means? Not being a dick or being coy, but what kept you out?
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Unread postby jfiling » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:22 pm

Peeker643 wrote:Can you explain to me, if you're willing, what exactly that means? Not being a dick or being coy, but what kept you out?


I don't mind at all, I put it out there, and you asked. I have a domestic violence conviction in my past. I could try to justify it, but the fact is I pled guilty, and when I disclosed that to the recruiter he responded that according to Ohio state law that disqualified me from serving in the National Guard.

Interestingly, the thing that has fixed the cause of it, which is medication, also disqualifies me from military service, because they don't allow people taking anti-depressants to serve. I agree with that wholeheartedly, because you don't want someone to go off their meds and do something crazy.

I'm not ashamed of who I am, although I wish I could change things in my past. I can't, and I do sleep pretty good at night knowing that I've made amends for mistakes in my past. I guess knowing this might make one look at my posts as the work of a madman, but hey, that's life.
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Unread postby jfiling » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:35 pm

By the way, you thought I was going to say that I was gay, didn't you ;)
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Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:39 pm

jfiling wrote:By the way, you thought I was going to say that I was gay, didn't you ;)


No. I thought you were just too old. :eek :shock: 8) :cool: 8-)
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Unread postby jfiling » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:44 pm

Peeker643 wrote:
jfiling wrote:By the way, you thought I was going to say that I was gay, didn't you ;)


No. I thought you were just too old. :eek :shock: 8) :cool: 8-)


Nah, I'm only now just above the upper age level. I'm 36.
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Unread postby buckeye319 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:24 pm

I find it difficult to judge a man for not wanting to go over to some shithole and potentially give up his life or leave behind his family. I certainly understand the government's policies created for desertion as you can't have an effective military if anyone can go AWOL when they see fit, but I personally won't be one to condemn a soldier for wanting out.
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Unread postby WarAdmiral » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:50 pm

buckeye319 wrote:I find it difficult to judge a man for not wanting to go over to some shithole and potentially give up his life or leave behind his family. I certainly understand the government's policies created for desertion as you can't have an effective military if anyone can go AWOL when they see fit, but I personally won't be one to condemn a soldier for wanting out.


Ill go along with this. I guess the main thing to learn from this, is today's Canada, isn't the Canada it used to be.

I wonder how Cuba would react to boats of deserters washing upon her shores
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Unread postby jfiling » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:00 pm

buckeye319 wrote:I find it difficult to judge a man for not wanting to go over to some shithole and potentially give up his life or leave behind his family. I certainly understand the government's policies created for desertion as you can't have an effective military if anyone can go AWOL when they see fit, but I personally won't be one to condemn a soldier for wanting out.


That's a very fair stance to take. The only problem I see is that we have a 100% volunteer military, and people who want to reap the benefits without fulfilling their oath bother me. Yes, I was being a bit hyperbolic in calling for his death, but knowing what that oath is and knowing that this guy signed on to take advantage of free education, boarding, insurance, and salary only to turn tail when it was time to fulfill his duty sickens me. He should have went for conscientious objector status, or refused the order like a man, or pretended to be gay. Those would be, in descending order, more honorable than fleeing the country.
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Unread postby jfiling » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:02 pm

I even found a story that can cause me to have sympathy to some deserters. This guy had moral justification, plus he had been injured in Iraq. His description of some military tactics should give some people pause.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/oregonianext ... e_hil.html
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Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:16 am

buckeye319 wrote:I find it difficult to judge a man for not wanting to go over to some shithole and potentially give up his life or leave behind his family. I certainly understand the government's policies created for desertion as you can't have an effective military if anyone can go AWOL when they see fit, but I personally won't be one to condemn a soldier for wanting out.


Then don't sign up for the military. When you sign that contract, you are making the agreement that you will fight battles for this country on any land for whatever reasons the leaders deem necessary.

You can't sign up provisionally. You sign up for the whole thing.

As someone who knows he couldn't hack it in the military, I do the smart thing. I don't sign up.

I have one former roommate in the Marines and two family acquaintances on the way out on Monday. I have talked with all of them and they fully understand what is at risk and what the job entails, whether its of their choosing or not.
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Unread postby Bill the Butcher » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:22 am

I'll only join the military if I can do two of the following:

1) Be a sniper.

2) Be a fighter pilot.

That's it.
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