Text Size

No Holds Barred

NOW The Dems Have A Frontrunner!

Need to get something off your chest? Have a topic that doesn't fit one of the other forums? Rant away in here. Mature audiences only, not for the easily offended.

Moderators: peeker643, swerb, Ziner

NOW The Dems Have A Frontrunner!

Unread postby ProgRocker » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:05 am

Obama now has won eight states in a row, all by something like 60-35 margins, and in the process has started making serious inroads into Hillary's base -- he's getting more Hispanic votes, more blue-collar votes, more Catholic votes, more older votes, more white guy votes, over the last week, and even more women's votes (although that's the one part of the base Hillary is keeping).

Meanwhile, Hillary has canned two of her top campaign staffers, had to go begging for money to cover her own loan, and is hunkering down in Texas and Ohio in echoes of the doomed Rudy Giuliani campaign strategy ... only, she now has to not only win OH/TX (and probably PA) to get to Denver, but she'll have to win each of those states by 15-20 points just to make it possible for her to get those uber-delegates to all vote her way (which won't happen with margins like that).

All while trying to out-speak Obama, who did it again tonight in Madison, WI with a phenomenal speech that went from the LaFollette progressive tradition to going after "Bush-McCain" on the war and taxes.

Hillary is in trouble.
User avatar
ProgRocker
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Unread postby consigliere » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:25 am

Reminds me of the Redskins-Denver Super Bowl from 20 years ago. Everyone thought Denver (Hillary) was the clear front-runner going in to win.....then Denver (Hillary) got out to a quick 10-0 lead......then Obama comes storming back with a 35-0 second quarter and has sent Denver/Hillary reeling.

Maybe not a good analogy, but point is, I think Obama has the momentum going now and he is absolutely KILLING her in the actual vote tallies. 65-75% in every primary/caucus it seems, and winning 8 in a row.

And man, is this guy one helluva speaker and motivator. Of course, that is only half the battle as he has to back up his talk and do it too....but he blows Hillary away in this department. Everytime I hear Hillary speak I want to tear my eardrums out.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby swerb » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:27 am

Hillary is in trouble. I never thought Obama could beat her, but it looks like hes going to.

Obama winning the Hispanic vote in a couple of states is a major red flag to the Clintons. Hillary is churning through campaign managers, looks old and tired, and Obama looks young and fresh. Shes begging for debates, and her "Tested and ready" mantra is getting old.

Honestly, the thing that is helping Obama is these speeches he's giving each week after succesful nights. Dude can speak, and his speeches are leading the news every night. He has truly seized the momentum, and every "hope and change" speech he gives after winning a new state is a new nail in Hillary's coffin.

Its far from over though, and as a curious observer who won't vote for either of them, I can't wait to see how The Clinton Machine reacts to this between now and March 4 when OH, PA, and TX vote. Their backs are to the wall, and I can't wait to see how sleazy they get. Hillary is still polling higher in all three states and has plenty of time to turn this thing around.

Part of me is elated to see the Clintons losing. Part of me is terrified of McCain's chances against Obama.
"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

http://www.twitter.com/theclevelandfan
User avatar
swerb
JoBu's bee-yotch
 
Posts: 17880
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:04 pm
Location: Twinsburg, OH
Favorite Player: Mango Hab
Least Favorite Player: Bob LaMonte

Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:05 am

Obama doesn't really terrify me at this point because he's an empty shirt. He says nothing in his speeches, though they can sound good. I think his lack of experience and lack of any real plan plus his contradictions (he said he supported President Bush's Iraq policy in 2004 when he was running for the Senate after denouncing the Iraq war).

Thing is, all the Dem primaries and caucuses are proportional. Hillary will file suit if she has to to get Florida and Michigan back. She'll get a majority of the super delegates.

What if Hillary manages to pull this off in a brokered convention? If so, we get a replay of 1968 and the Democrat party falls apart. I think that's a very likely scenario at this point.
Mr. MacPhisto
Troll
 
Posts: 3925
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:39 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Favorite Player: LeBron James
Least Favorite Player: A.J. Pierzynski

Unread postby Steve Buffum » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:18 am

Mr. MacPhisto wrote:Obama doesn't really terrify me at this point because he's an empty shirt. He says nothing in his speeches, though they can sound good. I think his lack of experience and lack of any real plan plus his contradictions (he said he supported President Bush's Iraq policy in 2004 when he was running for the Senate after denouncing the Iraq war).


Well, Americans would certainly never fall for THAT.
User avatar
Steve Buffum
Prose Flayer
 
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:32 am
Location: Austin TX
Favorite Player: Withheld
Least Favorite Player: David Huff

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:27 am

We all just need to prepare for an unproven person who can do no wrong in the public eye to be president (this terrifies me).

Facts and platforms have not mattered in general elections for a long time and all of Obama's negatives (his huge number of present votes, his more liberal than Kucinich voting score, his propensity to spend, his propensity to tax, etc) does not matter. He's doing to Hillary what Bill did to Bush and he is about to do it to Mccain.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Unread postby ProgRocker » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:54 am

e0y2e3 wrote:We all just need to prepare for an unproven person who can do no wrong in the public eye to be president (this terrifies me).

Facts and platforms have not mattered in general elections for a long time and all of Obama's negatives (his huge number of present votes, his more liberal than Kucinich voting score, his propensity to spend, his propensity to tax, etc) does not matter. He's doing to Hillary what Bill did to Bush and he is about to do it to Mccain.


A couple of those arguments are canards ... voting "present" in Illinois is not the same as missing the vote or voting no, it's more of a delaying tactic meant to gather more support for something you want to see pass (although it's hard to explain) ... that "most liberal" crap came from NATIONAL REVIEW, which somehow saw Obama as something like #13 last year until, miraculously, he became the frontrunner for the nomination (in other words, it's totally manufactured) ... and there's absolutely, positively no way ANY Democrat can be accused of outrageous spending after seeing what a conservative Republican White House and conservative Republican Congress gave us from 2001-2007.

Those guys rewrote the books, and that's as much of a reason why Obama may be poised to clean up as anything Obama says: Republicans proved conservative government is an oxymoron (and that's what happens when people who hate government are given all the levers of power) and until they expunge that thinking from the party - not likely since they still control the grass roots - Obama may be to Democrats what Reagan was to Republicans: the start of a swing to the left.

About damn time, I say.
User avatar
ProgRocker
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Unread postby OSU7NCs » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:07 am

I'll be voting for Obama for President....

He couldn't be as bad of a Prez as GWB if he tried his damnedest....he's the worst we've ever had IMO and his daddy right behind him buttjamming him from the #2 worst ever slot

Now all we need is for Obama to announce his running mate as Michael Moore and he'll win in a landslide!!!

Who here watched "SICKO"?
If you didn't see it, WATCH IT!

We don't have national health care in America b/c politicians (mostly greedy republicans) take bribes from insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies to leave the broken system broken....all they care about is $$$, not finding cures, not saving lives....it's all about $$$, PERIOD...
Connecting via dial-up is kinda like the Internet version of being Amish, LMAO!

CLICK HERE: BUCKEYE NATION
Image
User avatar
OSU7NCs
Best Damn Bucks Fan
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:03 pm
Location: Findlay, Ohio

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:40 am

Michael Moore is a douche bag. Plain and simple.

Anyway, I like McCain's chances against Obama or Hillary. There is a lot that he can exploit with both of them. If it's Obama, he'll attack McCain about the war and the economy, which is fine, because Obama has made no promises of substance on the economy, except that he will raise taxes out of the wazzu.

See link for the figures: http://kudlowsmoneypolitics.blogspot.co ... idate.html

I will admit, Obama is a charming speaker, though he throws lofty rhetoric around without giving any real concrete positions. He certainly knows how to rally people, especially the young Dems of the party. Even still, I think McCain can hammer home Obama's little-to-no executive or Washington experience and the fact that he has no faith in the American people. He wants a complete overhaul of the system that will crumble consumerism and ridiculously tax the middle and upper classes. Also, Obama was the most liberal Senator in 2007 (more liberal than Socialist Dennis), something McCain can really drive home to moderates and independents.

On Hillary, I really don't know how much of a player she is anymore, though she will win Texas and may win Ohio. Her campaign is in shambles. Her deputy manager quit and she had to use her own money (wasn't a $5 million dollar donation to herself one that would succeed the limit?) to keep her campaign afloat. Because of the omnipresent hatred of her, she already has all of the independents stacked against her.

It may be a dirty tactic, but it is worth wondering how the countries in the Middle East that still oppress women would view a woman President. France got away from that predicament pretty rapidly. She also couldn't hide behind the "I never supported the war" position that Barack has to duck behind, though Barack wasn't even in office yet when the vote was cast.
A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe
User avatar
skatingtripods
Sloth Duncan
 
Posts: 14346
Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 12:27 pm
Location: Cleveland
Favorite Player: Mike Aviles
Least Favorite Player: Every Detroit Tiger

Unread postby Muddy » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:30 pm

Skating Tripods wrote:he will raise taxes out of the wazzu


Just like Clinton did, right? What I expect is that tax rates will go back to pre-Bush levels, and if health care reform passes they will go up a bit more, but they will be offset by much lower health insurance premiums. I can't think of too many people who wouldn't make that trade.

I'm more worried about spending and I think that Obama, who is less beholden to special interests than Hillary and McCain, will probably be our best bet to get us back to RESPONSIBLE spending, something that the borrow and spend righties have forgotten about over the past 7 years.
User avatar
Muddy
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:08 pm

Unread postby OSU7NCs » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:51 pm

Amen Muddy!

Obama is the right choice....after 8 years of GWB and Republican lies and BULLSHIT, even many Republicans I know plan to vote for Obama.....as I said previously, he can't do any worse....the Dems put up a woman and a black man b/c they knew if either could win, this would be the time.....

8 years of republicans fucking up the country will do that....Hell, Bin Laden could probably get elected as a Dem right now...that's how anti-republican people have become but despite that, Obama is an excellent candidate and very worthy of the office of the President IMO!
Connecting via dial-up is kinda like the Internet version of being Amish, LMAO!

CLICK HERE: BUCKEYE NATION
Image
User avatar
OSU7NCs
Best Damn Bucks Fan
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:03 pm
Location: Findlay, Ohio

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:22 pm

Muddy wrote:Just like Clinton did, right? What I expect is that tax rates will go back to pre-Bush levels, and if health care reform passes they will go up a bit more, but they will be offset by much lower health insurance premiums. I can't think of too many people who wouldn't make that trade.

I'm more worried about spending and I think that Obama, who is less beholden to special interests than Hillary and McCain, will probably be our best bet to get us back to RESPONSIBLE spending, something that the borrow and spend righties have forgotten about over the past 7 years.


What exactly is responsible spending? I'm getting the gist from your post that responsible spending is taxing the hell out of the American public in order to spend on social programs that help a very small percentage of the American public.

You think foreclosures are a problem now? Wait until those people who can't pay their mortgage have to pay higher property, income, and other taxes. Think of the housing crisis then.

Sure, taking money away from the consumer culture and lessening disposable income will lower inflation because there will be less money circulating, but it will also decrease production, limit research and development in important technological fields, such as medical techonologies, and further hurt the sales of American products.

So your responsible spending on social programs will increase unemployment, decrease the consumer culture's spending ability, and likely increase foreclosure.

It's really common sense economics. Any time taxes raise, there are going to be more difficulties for the middle class. Those are the economic infrastructure that keep the system afloat, and we want to punish them, and the upper classes, to spend on programs that will only better the lives of small percentages? That's responsible?


Health care reform needs to be done in one's own personal finances through high interest, non-taxable health care accounts, not government overhaul. At what point will people start to assume responsibility over their own finances? Surely, high taxes won't allow for that.

Once again, your idea of responsible spending eliminates the middle class by taking them down to the poor level and moving the poor to the middle. That's Communism, not responsible spending.
A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe
User avatar
skatingtripods
Sloth Duncan
 
Posts: 14346
Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 12:27 pm
Location: Cleveland
Favorite Player: Mike Aviles
Least Favorite Player: Every Detroit Tiger

Unread postby Muddy » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:45 pm

Friend, you're building a house of cards.

Not sure that a health care overhaul that ultimately reduces costs and gives people more bang for their health care buck is a social program that is only going to help a very small number of Americans, but I'm not surprised that you and Limbaugh would see it that way.

Do you know anything about HSA's? My company went with them, and for a healthy family of 3, I'm spending $4,000/year on health care. Even with that terrific pre-tax "bargain".

Why would I want to see a decline in the consumer culture? The middle class spends most of their income (actually I think they currently spend more than their income). I want to see them with more disposable income. A sane health care culture would provide that.

You want to see a definition of responsible spending? Here's one: Don't spend what you don't got. We're borrowing something like a billion a day from the Chinese. Doesn't that make you feel uneasy? It does me. Especially when one day they're going to stop financing our reckless spending spree. You want to talk about bad economic repercussions? Those would dwarf the housing crisis.

Don't spend more on the defense budget than the rest of the world combined does, especially when most of it doesn't help the troops, and a ton of it is pure pork.

Fix medicare before all the boomers retire and bankrupt America.

Revisit the caps on the social security tax. Right now, as a gen-x, I'm paying more into it than I'll ever get out of it. Why shouldn't everybody share that same pain.

Revisit the prescription drug plan that created a huge new entitlement without getting a better deal on prices.

I want a government that spends my money wisely. You may call that communism. I call it common sense.
User avatar
Muddy
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:08 pm

Unread postby ProgRocker » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:11 pm

Skating Tripods wrote:Michael Moore is a douche bag. Plain and simple.

Anyway, I like McCain's chances against Obama or Hillary. There is a lot that he can exploit with both of them. If it's Obama, he'll attack McCain about the war and the economy, which is fine, because Obama has made no promises of substance on the economy, except that he will raise taxes out of the wazzu.

See link for the figures: http://kudlowsmoneypolitics.blogspot.co ... idate.html

I will admit, Obama is a charming speaker, though he throws lofty rhetoric around without giving any real concrete positions. He certainly knows how to rally people, especially the young Dems of the party. Even still, I think McCain can hammer home Obama's little-to-no executive or Washington experience and the fact that he has no faith in the American people. He wants a complete overhaul of the system that will crumble consumerism and ridiculously tax the middle and upper classes. Also, Obama was the most liberal Senator in 2007 (more liberal than Socialist Dennis), something McCain can really drive home to moderates and independents.


If you watched the acceptance speeches last night you wouldn't have typed all of that.

Obama's stump speech is now peppered with policy items -- including health care, NAFTA, and the "Bush/McCain tax cuts" -- that show that he is starting to fill in gaps beyond his soaring rhetoric, which is also getting better and better (his use of examples like World War II veterans and civil rights activists and connecting them to his theme of hope was nothing short of brilliant).

McCain, in contrast, actually managed to surround himself with geezers like John Warner who are actually OLDER than McCain. And yeah, that stirring "hope is just rhetoric!" line couldn't have sounded less uplifting than if he was a neighbor demanding that the kids get out of his yard after they threw the football over the fence. (Finally, who was the brainiac who decided McCain should actually follow Obama? Fire whoever that was.)

If everything holds, you'll have the greatest age disparity in the history of Presidential elections (72 v. 46), and now we'd get to see all those pictures of McCain and Bush together with cakes and hugs ad infinitum.

Bad juju for your side. Really bad juju.
User avatar
ProgRocker
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:14 pm

I'm not disagreeing with you that the economy and a lot of things need to be fixed. But you said that you are supporting Obama. Obama doesn't want to fix things, he wants to create new things. Blind spending is not the answer to any of our problems.

I don't understand your problem with defense spending. We spend more than anyone else because we have the most to lose. You see what happened when we were victimized by the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The economic infrastructure of the country went downhill and 3500+ lives were lost in the blink of an eye. We also have to use some of our military budget to protect our interests and allies around the globe. Not to mention, we're fighting the drug cartels in Central and South America with that spending. Maybe not all of the funds are properly appropriated, but their intentions are right.

Don't forget that military spending includes things like funding the National Guard to respond to military disasters, as well as the Coast Guard for water rescue.

I think we agree for the most part on what needs to be fixed. I was pointing out that Obama's plans are complete overhaul, start-from-scratch projects while the solutions lie within the problems. Privatize social security, set up health care personal accounts. Generic prescription drugs for $4 at any Giant Eagle or Wal-Mart are plenty good enough in that regard. If they were free, the pharmaceutical companies wouldn't make any money and there would be no desire to find new drugs to aid in treatments.

Astronomical taxes aren't going to help the middle class have disposable income, sir.
A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe
User avatar
skatingtripods
Sloth Duncan
 
Posts: 14346
Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 12:27 pm
Location: Cleveland
Favorite Player: Mike Aviles
Least Favorite Player: Every Detroit Tiger

Unread postby ProgRocker » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:15 pm

Skating Tripods wrote:Health care reform needs to be done in one's own personal finances through high interest, non-taxable health care accounts, not government overhaul. At what point will people start to assume responsibility over their own finances? Surely, high taxes won't allow for that.

Once again, your idea of responsible spending eliminates the middle class by taking them down to the poor level and moving the poor to the middle. That's Communism, not responsible spending.


What you fail to take into account is that what you described has already happened -- and happened, proudly, under conservative Republican rule. The Middle Class already IS being eliminated, by your party's fiscal policies which you are still defending as if they were the bulwark against a non-existent "socialist" threat. You can't run on that anymore because the record the American people are living under is your party's record. And I'll repeat: when your political philosophy is anti-government and anti-helping the citizenry, you can't expect to then have that citizenry support your policies.

We've now seen the pendulum finish its swing from the bloated Democratic government that peaked in 1978 or so to a bloated Republican government that peaked around 2005. It's swinging back to the left, and you may not be able to duck as it comes back.
User avatar
ProgRocker
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Unread postby Steve Buffum » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:19 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:We all just need to prepare for an unproven person who can do no wrong in the public eye to be president (this terrifies me).


Again, this would be unprecedented in American history. I mean, if you start counting after 2000.
User avatar
Steve Buffum
Prose Flayer
 
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:32 am
Location: Austin TX
Favorite Player: Withheld
Least Favorite Player: David Huff

Unread postby swerb » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:22 pm

I will say this ... McCain is not a good public speaker. He looks old. His speech last night after his win looked too rehearsed, had no energy or emotion. He was reading right off cue cards. Feeling I kept getting was that he didn't even look at the speech before reading it off prepared script.

Then you had Obama, who is affable, personable, and is genuinely getting people excited. Cracking jokes about Republicans whispering in his ear that they're voting for them. Calling them the "Obamicans".

From strictly a presentation standpoint, McCain and Obama are on opposite ends of the spectrum. It's going to be a big hurdle for McCain to overcome.
"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

http://www.twitter.com/theclevelandfan
User avatar
swerb
JoBu's bee-yotch
 
Posts: 17880
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:04 pm
Location: Twinsburg, OH
Favorite Player: Mango Hab
Least Favorite Player: Bob LaMonte

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:55 pm

Who here watched "SICKO"?
If you didn't see it, WATCH IT!


I watched it, it is pathetic, and quite inaccurate but you mentioned Michel Moore so we all knew that.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13350
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:11 pm

FWIW honest question here, does anybody here know another person that is employed full time that does not have health care?


Does anybody know a person, working or not, that does not have health care?

I do not know of one person, over the age of 21 that does not have health care.

BTW who ever up thread made the comment they have an HSA for their family at $4000 a year needs to look around, that can be beat easily.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13350
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:26 pm

FUDU wrote:FWIW honest question here, does anybody here know another person that is employed full time that does not have health care?


Does anybody know a person, working or not, that does not have health care?

I do not know of one person, over the age of 21 that does not have health care.

BTW who ever up thread made the comment they have an HSA for their family at $4000 a year needs to look around, that can be beat easily.


I have a friend who worked for Ashland Oil for 6 years last year his mother gets diagnosed with Ovarian Cancer, He deiced to take a 6 month leave of absence they demoted him, cut his pay, and removed his health insurance while he has a 1 year old and a 4 year old child. I know its an isolated incident but its an example of how good people get fucked over everyday. Thank goodness his mother is making a full recovery. If universal healthcare helps save good people from pain and death then im all for it and if its costs more in taxes then so be it I will chip in my share.
"Our name is Legion, for we are many."
User avatar
Cerebral_DownTime
Go f#%k yourself
 
Posts: 14421
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:31 am
Location: Galloway Ohio
Favorite Player: Fenrir
Least Favorite Player: Walt Flannigan's dog

Unread postby HoodooMan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:52 pm

I do not know of one person, over the age of 21 that does not have health care.

You must not work with any independent contractors.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:59 pm

HoodooMan wrote:I do not know of one person, over the age of 21 that does not have health care.

You must not work with any independent contractors.


Are independent contractors unable to get health insurance on their own for some reason?
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13350
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:00 pm

FUDU wrote:FWIW honest question here, does anybody here know another person that is employed full time that does not have health care?

Does anybody know a person, working or not, that does not have health care?


I work full time and do not have health insurance. However, it is offered, is partially subsidized by my employer, I just don't participate. I'm still Superman at 25 so...

I need health insurance with a $5,000 deductible. Then I would just self insure myself to that point, and God forbid, anything catastrophic would then be covered past 5,000.

I guess that means I am one of the whatever number of people that these smarmy politicians continue to cite. Except my plight isn't because of some unfair system, rather my own choice.
Last edited by Orenthal on Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Orenthal
 
Posts: 4176
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: The Midd Heights
Favorite Player: Dan Gilbert
Least Favorite Player: Blacks, Gays, Poor

Unread postby HoodooMan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:04 pm

she now has to not only win OH/TX (and probably PA) to get to Denver, but she'll have to win each of those states by 15-20 points just to make it possible for her to get those uber-delegates to all vote her way (which won't happen with margins like that).

I heard on the radio today that Obama could win 60% of the remaining delegates and still not reach the number necessary to secure the nomination.

So it appears it will come down to the SD's, and IIRC 300 of the 800 have already "verbally committed" and, again IIRC, at a rate of 2 to 1 in favor of Hillary.

Perhaps, in a rare display of competence, the Democratic party will find a way to give the nomination to whichever candidate ends up with the most delegates before the SD's cast their votes (of course, there's still the problem of Florida & Michigan) and this won't have to get ugly. But unless Obama rolls through TX, OH, and PA with convincing victories, I'm pretty much counting on it getting ugly.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby HoodooMan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:11 pm

Are independent contractors unable to get health insurance on their own for some reason?

Well, we could play around with the word "unable" or I could just remind you that your question was:

FWIW honest question here, does anybody here know another person that is employed full time that does not have health care?

Does anybody know a person, working or not, that does not have health care?
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:11 pm

FUDU wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:I do not know of one person, over the age of 21 that does not have health care.

You must not work with any independent contractors.


Are independent contractors unable to get health insurance on their own for some reason?


More or less it is the nature of the business. Speaking for the construction industry, where I work, the environment is so cost sensitive that many employers do not offer any type of health coverage. This is mostly due to the face that no matter what your trade, the barriers to entry are nill, and any guy with a truck can be your competition.
User avatar
Orenthal
 
Posts: 4176
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: The Midd Heights
Favorite Player: Dan Gilbert
Least Favorite Player: Blacks, Gays, Poor

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:14 pm

Thanks Orenthal that was part of the point I was making.

Most able bodied people that do not have health insurance are in that spot by their own choice(s).

BTW as somebody who has had a catastrophic health insurance policy I feel most people make too many assumptions about those type policies, assumptions like they only cover catastrophes and that is not true at all.

They cover a lot of regular stuff IE that I had to deal with injured ankles and shoulders etc...
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13350
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:18 pm

HoodooMan wrote:Are independent contractors unable to get health insurance on their own for some reason?

Well, we could play around with the word "unable" or I could just remind you that your question was:

FWIW honest question here, does anybody here know another person that is employed full time that does not have health care?

Does anybody know a person, working or not, that does not have health care?


My point there was if you are an independent contractor than you are as able as any other fully employed person and therefor can find health insurance to fit your needs or not fit your needs, either way.

I will not doubt nor argue about people that cannot work that do not have health insurance, it is apples and oranges when talking about your average everyday guy like most of us that works and can just about have anything we want.

Overall my point is, and I am sure you figured this out, that all the talk of so many people not having health insurance is just talk and probably not true.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13350
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby HoodooMan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:21 pm

My point there was if you are an independent contractor than you are as able as any other fully employed person and therefor can find health insurance to fit your needs or not fit your needs, either way.

I honestly don't know how much it costs a young healthy person to get themselves health insurance on their own. My assumption is roughly "expensive." For IC's who don't make a lot of money, that's pretty much health insurance that does "not fit (their) needs."

For older healthy people, my rough estimate moves up to "really expensive." The people I know who fit in this group are doing so by choice (early retirement), but I don't know--if you're laid off, do you still get health insurance coverage through your ex-employer until you find another job?

For older, less than healthy people, my rough estimate passes right by "really, really expensive" to "you're pretty much F'd."

My point being, some of us don't feel that the availability of health insurance should be based on one's profitability to an insurance company.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:03 pm

if you're laid off, do you still get health insurance coverage through your ex-employer until you find another job?


Yes, limted though, to roughly 30-60 days most IIRC.

My point being, some of us don't feel that the availability of health insurance should be based on one's profitability to an insurance company.


Completely agree.

I just don't like nor agree with the notion that there are tons and tons of able bodied people with an income that cannot get health insurance and moderately affordable health insurance.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13350
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby HoodooMan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:15 pm

I just don't like nor agree with the notion that there are tons and tons of able bodied people with an income that cannot get health insurance and moderately affordable health insurance.

I don't believe that's really the case either, though the amount, for me, is greater than "nobody I know." It's just that some of those w/o have the kind of sad stories that politicians can use to draw attention to themselves and, as a last resort, the issue.

If I had my choice of a private industry for the govt to move in on, it would be energy. Those colluding MF'ing pricks take home record profits year after year, and in the process they gouge the fuck out of pretty much every last one of us.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby consigliere » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:15 am

Listening to Frantz right now on WTAM....good stuff playing a clip of Barack's "Obamicans" speech the other night......and then followed it up with "Can you smmmmmeeeeellllllll what Barack is cookin" signature closing from The Rock.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby htown_dawg » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:20 pm

FUDU wrote:
if you're laid off, do you still get health insurance coverage through your ex-employer until you find another job?


Yes, limted though, to roughly 30-60 days most IIRC.


It's not limited at all. If your company offers health insurance and you're laid off/terminated, you're eligible for COBRA coverage. The coverage can last up to 18 months as long as you're paying the premium and it's the same insurance you had when you were employed by your company. Here's the rub though: you're paying the full premium, meaning you pay your portion of the premium and the company's portion of the premium. Total monthly premium would likely be in the neighborhood of $1000.
htown_dawg
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:54 pm
Location: The Woodlands, TX

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:19 pm

It's not limited at all. If your company offers health insurance and you're laid off/terminated, you're eligible for COBRA coverage. The coverage can last up to 18 months as long as you're paying the premium and it's the same insurance you had when you were employed by your company. Here's the rub though: you're paying the full premium, meaning you pay your portion of the premium and the company's portion of the premium. Total monthly premium would likely be in the neighborhood of $1000.


I was referring to the coverage one has with their employer, when terminated/laid off they are covered by the employers plan for 30-60 days, after that they can get Cobra and they actually have to go out and apply for Cobra they just don't automatically get it.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13350
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby HoodooMan » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:22 pm

Listening to Frantz right now on WTAM

Why.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:12 pm

FUDU wrote:
It's not limited at all. If your company offers health insurance and you're laid off/terminated, you're eligible for COBRA coverage. The coverage can last up to 18 months as long as you're paying the premium and it's the same insurance you had when you were employed by your company. Here's the rub though: you're paying the full premium, meaning you pay your portion of the premium and the company's portion of the premium. Total monthly premium would likely be in the neighborhood of $1000.


I was referring to the coverage one has with their employer, when terminated/laid off they are covered by the employers plan for 30-60 days, after that they can get Cobra and they actually have to go out and apply for Cobra they just don't automatically get it.


DU, typically when someone is laid off, fired, or leaves a job they have coverage for the remainder of the month (because it will be or have been deducted from their pay check for that month) but as far as I know companies are not in the business of handing out free insurance.

I suppose there can be instances where coverage was prepaid due to first paychecks being paid after termination and that may push coverage farther, but that is it.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Unread postby consigliere » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:11 pm

HoodooMan wrote:Listening to Frantz right now on WTAM

Why.


It is that or WKNR......so I choose the lesser of two evils. :-) :smile: :)
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby mrburns » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:49 am

I'm putting this out there right now and anybody can hold me to it: if Obama hangs on and nabs the nomination, McCain will not be able to defeat him. It just won't happen. Too many Republicans don't even like McCain and many will sit at home in November, while Democrats will be enthused by Obama's message and come at in droves (particularly black and young voters). It probably won't even be close. The prevailing opinion is that Obama seems like he is a fresh candidate with new ideas who might actually be able to change things, while McCain and Hillary are just the old dogs and it's "their turn"; they've just risen to the top of their parties for this election cycle.

However, if Hillary wins, things will be really tight, and I could see it going either way. I've been saying for close to a year now that the only chance the Democrats have to lose is if Hillary is nominated. She's such a polarizing figure that many people won't vote the issues, they'll just vote on whether or not they like Hillary. And like I said above, Republicans hate the Clintons like Democrats hate George Bush (the latter is probably more justified).

Obama vs. McCain = No contest.

Clinton vs. McCain = Dogfight.
User avatar
mrburns
 
Posts: 915
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:55 pm
Location: Erie, PA
Favorite Player: Rusty Branyan
Least Favorite Player: Rapist QBs

Unread postby OSU7NCs » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:23 am

FUDU wrote:FWIW honest question here, does anybody here know another person that is employed full time that does not have health care?


Does anybody know a person, working or not, that does not have health care?

I do not know of one person, over the age of 21 that does not have health care.

BTW who ever up thread made the comment they have an HSA for their family at $4000 a year needs to look around, that can be beat easily.


I worked for my previous employer for 10 years and never had health care....I was 21 when I started there....10 years no health care.....take off your blinders dude!!!
Connecting via dial-up is kinda like the Internet version of being Amish, LMAO!

CLICK HERE: BUCKEYE NATION
Image
User avatar
OSU7NCs
Best Damn Bucks Fan
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:03 pm
Location: Findlay, Ohio

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:20 am

It is that or WKNR......so I choose the lesser of two evils.

Frantz would have a hard time being the lesser of two evils if all he was up against was 666 SATN Radio.

And how does it come down to 850 Sports Talk vs. Windbag Douche Talk anyway? Are you unable to get good reception on any other AM stations (1540? 1350?) or 90.3? They talk too.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Unread postby consigliere » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:32 am

HoodooMan wrote:It is that or WKNR......so I choose the lesser of two evils.

Frantz would have a hard time being the lesser of two evils if all he was up against was 666 SATN Radio.

And how does it come down to 850 Sports Talk vs. Windbag Douche Talk anyway? Are you unable to get good reception on any other AM stations (1540? 1350?) or 90.3? They talk too.


Yeah, the only two that come in well at the office are KNR and TAM, so my options are limited man.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:58 pm

I'm guessing you don't like Rizzo Consig, or is it just the hour that Frantz overlaps Mike & Mike. Frantz bothers the hell outta me sometimes. Seems like he enunciates "too hard" always making this annoying pre speaking mouth noise that I cannot describe.

Anyhow I luv Rizzo! Too bad they could not get him to do mornings so I did not have to listen to Mike vs. Mike.
User avatar
Orenthal
 
Posts: 4176
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: The Midd Heights
Favorite Player: Dan Gilbert
Least Favorite Player: Blacks, Gays, Poor

Unread postby ProgRocker » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:49 pm

FUDU wrote:FWIW honest question here, does anybody here know another person that is employed full time that does not have health care?


Does anybody know a person, working or not, that does not have health care?

I do not know of one person, over the age of 21 that does not have health care.

BTW who ever up thread made the comment they have an HSA for their family at $4000 a year needs to look around, that can be beat easily.


Really?

I know three people who work full-time IN THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY that don't have health care.

No B.S.
User avatar
ProgRocker
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Unread postby ProgRocker » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:52 pm

Consigliere wrote:Listening to Frantz right now on WTAM....good stuff playing a clip of Barack's "Obamicans" speech the other night......and then followed it up with "Can you smmmmmeeeeellllllll what Barack is cookin" signature closing from The Rock.


Last week I somehow tuned in Trivisonno, and for the first time ever he made me laugh with a faux McCain press conference where a McCain supporter interrupted every question with "IT DOESN'T MATTER! HE'S A WAR HERO!!!!!"

Which just goes to show every candidate has something to say to shut up questioners.

To say nothing of the privilege I felt knowing that I caught the one time Triv will be funny for the next 18 months.
User avatar
ProgRocker
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:56 pm

Really?

I know three people who work full-time IN THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY that don't have health care.

No B.S.


If anybody was going to come back and say they knew people that didn't have health insurance I would have felt very comfortable guessing you'd be the one to do so, and people that are actually HCP's to boot, impressive.

BTW do you keep your sickle and hammer in the house or in the garage?
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13350
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:20 pm

Yeah, the only two that come in well at the office are KNR and TAM, so my options are limited man.

The only AM station that comes in for me at work is WTAM, so I'll bet 90.3 comes in just fine. ;)

Seriously, even if you think you hate NPR, Diane Rehm's show from 10-12 AM (it's actually two separate one hour shows) is really worth giving a shot. She has great guests, she asks great questions, she even, for the most part, has great callers. IMO, her political opinions creep into the show very infrequently and she's very fair to everyone she has on. I highly recommend this show to even my most conservative friends.

Give her 2-3 days, and I'll bet you spend a lot more time listening to her than Rizzo or The Douche. I feel like I've adopted this woman as my grandmother two hours a day, five days a week.
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag


Return to No Holds Barred

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests