Text Size

No Holds Barred

City of Cleveland: "Shit, we're outta money!"

Need to get something off your chest? Have a topic that doesn't fit one of the other forums? Rant away in here. Mature audiences only, not for the easily offended.

Moderators: peeker643, swerb, Ziner

City of Cleveland: "Shit, we're outta money!"

Unread postby swerb » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:48 pm

http://blog.cleveland.com/plaindealer/2 ... o_mor.html

Two questions. One, how does this come to a head just now? And does anyone have confidence in Frank Jackson to fix this right?

Jackson's plan is basically to take about 75 million in loans that developers have with the city, and allow them to repay the entire outstanding principal balances at reduced interest rates.

The city will get their hands on tens of millions of dollars immediately, but lose millions over the long haul by taking the loans off the books at reduced payments.

Critical time for the city. They are in desperate need of some revitalization projects downtown, and the waterfront ... it's downright embarrassing how underdeveloped it is.
User avatar
swerb
JoBu's bee-yotch
 
Posts: 17919
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:04 pm
Location: Twinsburg, OH
Favorite Player: Mango Hab
Least Favorite Player: Bob LaMonte

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:58 pm

Casino. Gambling.
A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe
User avatar
skatingtripods
Sloth Duncan
 
Posts: 14350
Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 12:27 pm
Location: Cleveland
Favorite Player: Mike Aviles
Least Favorite Player: Every Detroit Tiger

Unread postby swerb » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:14 pm

Skating Tripods wrote:Casino. Gambling.

It's past the point of ridiculous with the casino thing. The amount of gambling dollars this state and region bleeds away is mind-boggling. Not to mention what a casino would do for downtown and in helping to help lure convention dollars.
User avatar
swerb
JoBu's bee-yotch
 
Posts: 17919
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:04 pm
Location: Twinsburg, OH
Favorite Player: Mango Hab
Least Favorite Player: Bob LaMonte

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:18 pm

Swerb wrote:
Skating Tripods wrote:Casino. Gambling.

It's past the point of ridiculous with the casino thing. The amount of gambling dollars this state and region bleeds away is mind-boggling. Not to mention what a casino would do for downtown and in helping to help lure convention dollars.

Absolutely. I've done a few research papers on this for assorted classes.

It's sick. In 2005 alone, we lost $925 million to out-of-state casinos. I could give plenty of other mind-blowing numbers.

I love this new plan from www.myohionow.com . Sure it's only one casino, but it's a start. The amount of jobs, the possible attractions we could get here, and of course the revenue far outweighs any negative.
A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe
User avatar
skatingtripods
Sloth Duncan
 
Posts: 14350
Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 12:27 pm
Location: Cleveland
Favorite Player: Mike Aviles
Least Favorite Player: Every Detroit Tiger

Unread postby htown_dawg » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:23 pm

Wait 'til Atlanta runs out of water and start selling Lake Erie.
htown_dawg
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:54 pm
Location: The Woodlands, TX

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:53 pm

Chicago's waterfront has The Navy Pier, million dollard properties and the like.

Cleveland's waterfront has guys fishing for sheephead.

The City of Cleveland is like the Cavs. Pretty much mismanaged wire to wire. To expect them to make prudent decisions now is a reach.

By the way, the schools, the fact that nobody who makes money in Cleveland lives there....it's NOT coming back.

Headz for ze hillz.
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6626
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:11 pm

This city is at the point of critical mass of the point of no return.

Seriously, we are five years away from not being able to reverse this.

Sounds crazy but it almost feels like the Browns or Tribe need to win it all soon to save the city.

If this city didn't have its hospital network it would be completely dead already.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13357
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby Spin » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:58 pm

Funding schools through property tax is completely unfair, and that's the root of the problem. No decent education, no bringing in decent jobs, no middle class people want to move in, no future.

And it will never change because people in Cleveland don't vote. People in Hudson and Hunting Valley do, and they don't want all schools to be equal. They want their money going to THEIR schools.

We can pat ourselves on the back all we want about the stadiums and the arenas that the city built, while ALL of the money they make goes in the owner's pockets. I want to start a business. Think the government will build me a fancy building? Rent free?
User avatar
Spin
 
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:16 am
Location: the burbs of Akron
Favorite Player: Jack N. Coke
Least Favorite Player: 72 hour work weeks

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:49 pm

Casino Gambling has been an ecconomic boone for every state that has it IE: West Virgina I mean the whole state doesnt have complete set of teeth combined and yet they bank millions of dollars on gambling. Its due to the pressure put on politicians by religious kooks that we dont have casinos that would finance schools, roads, and other improvements to infrastructure.

Anyone fishing for Sheephead should be sent to a metal health expert they are the Kevin Federline of fish......
"Our name is Legion, for we are many."
User avatar
Cerebral_DownTime
Go f#%k yourself
 
Posts: 14422
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:31 am
Location: Galloway Ohio
Favorite Player: Fenrir
Least Favorite Player: Walt Flannigan's dog

Unread postby MadDawgJimmyMac » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:07 pm

Cleveland's going broke?

Maybe they can convince that guy running for pres with the hot wife to come home and straighten out all these local problems. After all, he has a ton of experience in that regard. :twisted:

PS: I'de love to see a casino bill pass but it needs to be statewide versus specific to a local area. I say that realizing the bible belt to the south will forever hold this state back.
User avatar
MadDawgJimmyMac
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:02 pm

Unread postby BernieBrown » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:37 am

Its not just Cleveland its the whole state of Ohio. We seem to be stuck in a time warp of some sort that leaves us 20 years behind. I mean fricken West Virgina caught on and legalized gambling for god sake.

Ohio as a whole needs to let go of the 1950's values, and realize that things change, and in order to survive you gotta adapt. The saddest day of my life will be when I have to move away because Ohio has become a wasteland.
User avatar
BernieBrown
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:20 am

Unread postby Spin » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:49 am

Funny thing is, where does it say gambling is even a sin?
User avatar
Spin
 
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:16 am
Location: the burbs of Akron
Favorite Player: Jack N. Coke
Least Favorite Player: 72 hour work weeks

Unread postby BernieBrown » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:38 am

The Bible says to be a good steward of your money, so most Christians take that as do not gamble or spend you money on things that are unnecessary.

Also a lot of the folks who vote against casinos vote that way because they see the average customer as a drunk dead beat who is gambling away his welfare check. They also see the casinos as a place that harbors crime, and shady dealings.
User avatar
BernieBrown
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:20 am

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:10 am

Ahhh Christianity the oldest, richest, and least productive orginization in human history. If gambling helps Cleveland and Columbus rebound then by all means gamble away becuase I dont see those steel jobs coming back from China.
"Our name is Legion, for we are many."
User avatar
Cerebral_DownTime
Go f#%k yourself
 
Posts: 14422
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:31 am
Location: Galloway Ohio
Favorite Player: Fenrir
Least Favorite Player: Walt Flannigan's dog

Not to rub it in

Unread postby PitbullTerrier » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:28 am

Erie, PA (my home town) finally opened a casino, and all you see on weekends are car license plates from New York, Ohio, West Virginia, and sometimes Maryland coming to town to take part in throwin money into this shithole.

And, it's working. Erie is building a new runway for bigger commercial planes, the downtown renaissance is blowing up huge, and our roads are getting fixed.

Not for anything, but casino's are a HUGE source of income for a city/state. I wish Erie would sanction Lake Boat gambling. That would bring in more money than all the taxes and parking tickets combined.

Sorry about Ohio, but maybe they'll follow in Erie's steps and do what will bring the city back and right again. Cleveland is truly one of my favorite cities to visit and see.

Chin up, gang. Just start voting these people out of office who won't support revitalizing the city.

PBT

PS. It's amazing how many things are ruined or put off in the name of Christianity. I am no longer a practicing Catholic and would never give my hard earned money to the church. Those fuckers always want a say in politics, so it's easy: pay taxes and you can have a say. The Catholic Church makes more money than the mafia and doesn't pay a dime or contribute to the community at all. Fuck em. If I ran for office, I would go after churches.

Here's a staggering stat from Erie: 60% of the land owned in Erie are from churches and NONE of them are taxed. And then the city used to cry (before the casino) about going broke. Sick. Didn't God tell people I'll help those who help themselves? Well city leaders, make the church pay taxes and help out.
User avatar
PitbullTerrier
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:04 pm

Unread postby Spin » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:55 am

I'll play Devil's Advocate here. Bad choice of words in this case.

I'm a protestant, and I see a LOT of good that the church does for the community. I can't comment on how much the Catholic church does for the community (I haven't seen much) or how hypocritical they are (gambling is a sin, except on church bingo night). Or how they seem to be intertwined with the mafia over the decades.

What I can say is that most of the protestant churches I have been involved in have served the community, pour more money and food and clothing into the needy families than the govt, and basically do what they are "suppose" to do.

Just like any other organization, you're going to have ones who become corrupt. They're not immune to losing the direction and becoming human led.

There are politicians who play the Christian card on issues to get our votes. But we see right through the ones who aren't sincere.

Debate all you want, throw ignorant four letter words to try to look "adult" (I'm not referring to anyone who's posted in this thread) YOU are not going to change my beliefs. It'll take a higher power than that. LOL
User avatar
Spin
 
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:16 am
Location: the burbs of Akron
Favorite Player: Jack N. Coke
Least Favorite Player: 72 hour work weeks

Unread postby BernieBrown » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:44 pm

If you want a religious argument spin you had better start a new thread, those things tend to take on a life of their own. If you want one though I'm always willing to argue religion.
User avatar
BernieBrown
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:20 am

What's up, Sweet and Sour?

Unread postby PitbullTerrier » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:21 pm

Bernie,

I wasn't trying to make this religious, but it chaps my ass when places try to get Gambling and the Catholic Church calls it a sin while they're raking in all the money and not paying tax one.

I know this isn't endemic of all Churches, but Catholic churches have become a big conglomerate and sham. I feel like I was used.

PBT
User avatar
PitbullTerrier
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:04 pm

Unread postby BernieBrown » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:37 pm

Well if you want to hit the purely financial points then yeah I agree. For a catholic voter to vote down gambling just so a casino wont take business form their bingo night is pretty weak.

However I dont think the Catholics are the problem, I think most of the resistance is comming from Protestants with a stick up their colective ass.
User avatar
BernieBrown
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:20 am

Unread postby Spin » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:41 pm

I'm really not interested in debating religeon, politics, or crate motors (on auto racing forums). I don't think you can lump all Christian churches in with a few bad apples.

And I don't believe that they are the reason Cleveland is broke. Bad management, corruption, de-industrialization, people more worried about saving the Indians than saving the schools, bussing, crime. Those are reasons.

Misguided or hypocritical religeous people may be blocking gambling but they're not the downfall of the rust belt. We're on the same page as far as gambling goes, we can have horse racing and lottery and bingo. But gambling is bad...
User avatar
Spin
 
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:16 am
Location: the burbs of Akron
Favorite Player: Jack N. Coke
Least Favorite Player: 72 hour work weeks

Here's what you should ask yourself, Spin

Unread postby PitbullTerrier » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:52 pm

Spin, brother, you know WHY the church considers Gambling bad?

A: because you aren't giving the church their cut and blowing it on slots. The church needs your money so that their pederast priests can drive around in Cadillacs and take trips to far away places like Burma and the Republic of Ghizikstan to help cure the lepers by relieving them of that heavy money they have.

I have seen it first hand: Casino's bring in a ton of money, and if the city has the balls to oppose the church, you too can benefit from that multi-Billion dollar industry.

Is some of it crooked? Sure, but no more crooked than Organized Religion has become.

PBT
User avatar
PitbullTerrier
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:04 pm

Unread postby Spin » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:07 pm

You're looking at a few corrupt churches and labelling all of them. That's like me saying that all Indians fans get drunk and run across the field naked.

But if that's how shallow you want to be, go for it. Just find someone else to debate with.
User avatar
Spin
 
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:16 am
Location: the burbs of Akron
Favorite Player: Jack N. Coke
Least Favorite Player: 72 hour work weeks

Fucking A

Unread postby PitbullTerrier » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:17 pm

What is with all of you assholes on this board being uptight? Seems like you take this shit personally. And personally speaking, if you do, I'm onto something.

Fuck off or debate, I don't care, really.

"That's like me saying that all Indians fans get drunk and run across the field naked"

So what if they do or don't? Most of the country already thinks Browns fans are bottle throwing drunks, and I could give two shits less whether they label me or not. Knowing the truth is enough.

Lighten up. Christ Swerb, some of these kids are fucking wound up tight.

PBT
User avatar
PitbullTerrier
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:04 pm

Unread postby Spin » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:33 pm

I'm not uptight, I'll debate all day and all night.

But I'm just not going to waste my time trying to discuss something objectively with someone who cannot look past their preconceived notions. What's the point? You already know everything anyhow, in your own mind.
User avatar
Spin
 
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:16 am
Location: the burbs of Akron
Favorite Player: Jack N. Coke
Least Favorite Player: 72 hour work weeks

Pft

Unread postby PitbullTerrier » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:12 pm

Preconceived notions?

Are you fucking serious?

I am a Sicilian Italian, Catholic, and I am about to tell you, sonny, that you're fucking waging a losing debate if you think that Catholicism isn't crooked.

I have no doubts that in your world that it fucking rocks, so I'll let you have that pussy shit to make you feel warm at night. But please quit pretending like what I am saying is based on a notion.

It's fact. I would link you to the thousands of articles out there to illustrate my point, but that's not how I roll. I educate, you do the work to find out if you're being spoon-fed shit or not. Either way, you're not debating, you're getting in a snit because you either are too young to know better, or so shielded from the world that you don't care.

Blow.

PBT
User avatar
PitbullTerrier
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:04 pm

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:16 pm

The one thing I know about religion is people have been dying over it for a couple thoudand years.

Pitbull, as someone alluded to earlier, Ohio has a HUGE problem in that bible belt. Voting them out of office isn't happening in my lifetime. There hasn't been a gambling issue that has been EVEN CLOSE to passing in this state.

Until the city just does something politically underhanded like break the state charter and make it a municipality decision, there will be no casinos here.

My opinion, if one is going to ruin their life gambling it's going to happen whether the casinos are thier or not. All the bleeding heart politicians are taking their horse race cut and the religious zealots are taking their bingo shares. All at a much worse vig than a casino offers at their worst games for the player.
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6626
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Unread postby Spin » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:58 pm

Watch the terminology there. I said not every CHRISTIAN is crooked. There are three branches to Christianity, Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox.

I'm a Christian but I'm not Catholic. i don't want to be Catholic. And I'm an Italian. I don't want to do all that stuff Catholics do, the chants, the up and down all morning, praying to Mary, or the Pope, or whoever, I can't find none of that in the Bible anyhow. We go in, bullshit awhile, learn a few things, and we're done. Off to play softball or basketball or something.

I don't have a priest. My pastor is married and drives a minivan. He doesn't jet to other countries. He doesn't need to be a pedofile, he has a woman at home. And we don't have to go through him for anything either. We have direct access. We don't even have a denomination, we don't agree with all the baggage of the Baptists or Methodist or any of the other sects. Just give it to me straight. no pagentry. No gimicks. No traditions I have to follow. Just the Word.

And there are crooks in Protestant churches too, I can take you to some local churches. That doesn't mean they're all bad. Not all NFL quarterbacks kill fighting dogs that lose. Open your eyes.

I'm not young, and I'm certainly not shielded from the world. I see the world at it's worst at work. I'm not a Christian because I'm weak or I need anyone's help. Simply, nobody has proven that there is no God, because nobody knows of everything in the universe. Even Darwin was a believer. And after much research, Christianity is the only religion that makes sense.

There you have it. You wanna debate any of that, go ahead. I'll be back.

You wanna blame God or Rex Humbard or me or Ricky Bobby for all of Cleveland's problems, that aint gonna fix anything. You guys need someone to get their head out of the sand, look at the city, and look at themselves. You need politicians who aren't trying to get a free ticket to Washington and pay attention to the mess they represent. I'm with you on the casino deal, you're preaching to the choir.
Last edited by Spin on Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Spin
 
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:16 am
Location: the burbs of Akron
Favorite Player: Jack N. Coke
Least Favorite Player: 72 hour work weeks

Unread postby Spin » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:07 pm

I don't just whine and complain about the way things are. I offer solutions.

You want gambling in Cleveland? Put the casino on a boat and shove it out in the lake. Other places get away with it. If the legal eagles get too uptight, steam into Canadien waters and let the games begin. If you don't port in Canada, you don't need the passports and all that AFAIK.

The city still gets the taxes and the touri$t$ and all that. Dock it off E 9th and the Rock Hall and all that crap will get more touri$t$. Instead of busloads of people going to Erie or Detroit, they'll be rolling into Cleveland.

Everyone wins.
User avatar
Spin
 
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:16 am
Location: the burbs of Akron
Favorite Player: Jack N. Coke
Least Favorite Player: 72 hour work weeks

Unread postby Joens » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:16 pm

thats how we do gambling down hear in florida. we put um on like a day cruse to gamble ur way to hell.
Cremincus- Something completely and utterly unbelievable. Published in the B-list 2006
User avatar
Joens
BQ has no MySpace
 
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:44 pm
Location: West Palm Beach, FL

Unread postby MadDawgJimmyMac » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:14 pm

One thing that I believe has not been mentioned is the impact of the Ohio Lottery. State officials would hate to see all that $$$$ going to education undercut by casino gambling.
User avatar
MadDawgJimmyMac
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:02 pm

Unread postby swerb » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:20 pm

MadDawgJimmyMac wrote:One thing that I believe has not been mentioned is the impact of the Ohio Lottery. State officials would hate to see all that $$$$ going to education undercut by casino gambling.

That's the other huge issue. The state has full control over all that lottery money. Casino gaming would produce more total education dollars, even with the impact it would have on the lottery. But the state wouldn't be able to control it as much.

Religious nuts. A lottery system that acts as a tax on the poor and yields hundreds of millions of dollars the state can spend as they choose. Strickland on record against it. Horrific leadership in Cleveland.

I'm not holding my breath.
User avatar
swerb
JoBu's bee-yotch
 
Posts: 17919
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:04 pm
Location: Twinsburg, OH
Favorite Player: Mango Hab
Least Favorite Player: Bob LaMonte

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:25 am

Swerb wrote:
MadDawgJimmyMac wrote:One thing that I believe has not been mentioned is the impact of the Ohio Lottery. State officials would hate to see all that $$$$ going to education undercut by casino gambling.

That's the other huge issue. The state has full control over all that lottery money. Casino gaming would produce more total education dollars, even with the impact it would have on the lottery. But the state wouldn't be able to control it as much.

Religious nuts. A lottery system that acts as a tax on the poor and yields hundreds of millions of dollars the state can spend as they choose. Strickland on record against it. Horrific leadership in Cleveland.

I'm not holding my breath.


Yes, forgot to mention it along with horse racing and bingo. Again, it's great when the politicians come out with the old "gambling could destroy people's lives" take, as they watch that Ohio Lottery REALLY ruin people.

What's sadder, going to a gas station on a Friday in a econimically challenged part of town and seeing paychecks being used in the lottery line that stretches out the door, or

Someone in a casino?
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6626
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Unread postby swerb » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:39 am

Pick 4. $10,000 to 1 odds. Pays 6,000-1.

40% vigorish.

You're better off flipping a coin and betting sports games.

Tax on the poor. Tax on the stupid. I could not agree more Lead. They paint the casinos as home wreckers, harbringers of crime and prostitution.

Yet the line out the fucking door on Friday afternoon at the 7/11 on Kinsman ... they got no problem with that.
"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

http://www.twitter.com/theclevelandfan
User avatar
swerb
JoBu's bee-yotch
 
Posts: 17919
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:04 pm
Location: Twinsburg, OH
Favorite Player: Mango Hab
Least Favorite Player: Bob LaMonte

Unread postby General » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:41 pm

I wish there were more harbingers of prostitution. :twisted:
Browns are an irrelevant and comical organization
User avatar
General
 
Posts: 1853
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:35 pm
Location: Pensacola
Favorite Player: Paul Warfield
Least Favorite Player: 537 Idiots in DC

Unread postby ProgRocker » Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:33 am

First, who the Hell IS Frank Jackson?

Second, I knew the city was screwed this past election when I saw a list of potential candidates and one of them was ... I kid you not ... the CURRENT MAYOR of EUCLID?!?!? How did THAT happen?!

Third, f casino gambling. It's a stupid idea to rebuild a city through that kind of vice.

No, it seems the only hope for Cleveland is to somehow try to rebuild the manufacturing base. Take advantage of the fact that Case and Cleveland State still churn out world-class engineers and use that. Maybe start putting all the eggs in alternative energy technologies and environmental science projects? The world consensus, whether you believe it or not (and frankly I think if you believe otherwise you also believe the world is flat), is that global warming is real and money will be flowing to try to alleviate those problems. Cleveland is as good a place as any to research and build wind turbines, alternative materials to wood and plastic, whatever -- the city is teetering, and that seems at least as good an idea as casino gambling.

That's the best idea I got.
User avatar
ProgRocker
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:41 am

ProgRocker wrote:First, who the Hell IS Frank Jackson?

Second, I knew the city was screwed this past election when I saw a list of potential candidates and one of them was ... I kid you not ... the CURRENT MAYOR of EUCLID?!?!? How did THAT happen?!

Third, f casino gambling. It's a stupid idea to rebuild a city through that kind of vice.

No, it seems the only hope for Cleveland is to somehow try to rebuild the manufacturing base. Take advantage of the fact that Case and Cleveland State still churn out world-class engineers and use that. Maybe start putting all the eggs in alternative energy technologies and environmental science projects? The world consensus, whether you believe it or not (and frankly I think if you believe otherwise you also believe the world is flat), is that global warming is real and money will be flowing to try to alleviate those problems. Cleveland is as good a place as any to research and build wind turbines, alternative materials to wood and plastic, whatever -- the city is teetering, and that seems at least as good an idea as casino gambling.

That's the best idea I got.


Not sure if anyone is claiming that the city will be rebuilt as a result of casino gambling, just pointing out the hypocrisy of the state not allowing it. Personally, I think it will generate some funds, perhaps stem the tide a few years, nothing more. It can't really get much worse, so why not.

To your point of the manufacturing base. This is a huge reason why the city is in decline. The few businesses that are driving the city are paid by third parties. This is a huge problem. Cleveland Clinic and University hospitals gouge the general public for this reason.

If the city would come back it'd be the biggest miracle I've ever witnessed.
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6626
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:54 am

No, it seems the only hope for Cleveland is to somehow try to rebuild the manufacturing base. Take advantage of the fact that Case and Cleveland State still churn out world-class engineers and use that


World class engineers?

Maybe at Case sometimes, but sure as hell not from CSU. It's a community college that usually gets the local kids that either cannot afford to go away for school or are to afraid to. And judging by the Cleveland school system the local kids that do go to either have a lot to be desired, engineers?, half of them would be lucky to be meat cutters with the proper training.

Shit the fact that a year at CSU is by far cheaper than a year at St. Ed's or St. Iggy's high school tell you that.

If CSU was worth their weight in gold in attracting young talent it would reflect in their tuition.

Cleveland is beyond help in regards to education.

I'm just glad I'm 35 and don't need education anymore.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13357
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:14 am

World class engineers?

Maybe at Case sometimes, but sure as hell not from CSU. It's a community college that usually gets the local kids that either cannot afford to go away for school or are to afraid to. And judging by the Cleveland school system the local kids that do go to either have a lot to be desired, engineers?, half of them would be lucky to be meat cutters with the proper training.

Shit the fact that a year at CSU is by far cheaper than a year at St. Ed's or St. Iggy's high school tell you that.

If CSU was worth their weight in gold in attracting young talent it would reflect in their tuition.

Cleveland is beyond help in regards to education.

I'm just glad I'm 35 and don't need education anymore.


There is quality education in every city even in community colleges just because people dont take advantage of it doesnt mean its not there. Education continues for life its doesnt stop at 35. If the education system has failed in Cleveland what do that say about the people that live there? Point the finger at the politicans without doubt they are dumbfucks but people still choose to live under the reign of dumbfucks they must not be that different. The people have the power to change thier circumstances but when you only have 25% of the people voting then that means people either dont care or dont know im not sure whats worse.

This country is in a downward spiral of dumbness- Hunter S Thompson
"Our name is Legion, for we are many."
User avatar
Cerebral_DownTime
Go f#%k yourself
 
Posts: 14422
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:31 am
Location: Galloway Ohio
Favorite Player: Fenrir
Least Favorite Player: Walt Flannigan's dog

Unread postby Spin » Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:02 am

Absolutely. it was the bussing and the down spiral of the cleveland schools that caused so many people to move out into the suburbs. And it's that same reason why nobody is moving in. I could have worked for the city and turned down the offers because I had to move into the city and enroll my kids in those schools.

It's not a "big city" thing either. Columbus is one city that has a growing population.

Cleveland has a school system that was taken over by the state IIRC.

A dgree from Cleveland State is as good as a degree from any other college. Unless it is a program that the other college is famous for, like Akron U's Polymer Engineering and Polymer Chemistry. or like Harvard Law School. Same with Tri-C compared to other community colleges. I know, I'm an Akron U student and have checked in to both and a lot of others in the area.

Then you have Case, Baldwin Wallace, Notre Dame College, Ursuline, John Carroll. Post-high school education isn't the problem.

The problem is getting the education you need to get into one of those schools and be able to get through it. And Cleveland and Lorain are ranked the lowest in the state.

Schools in Ohio are funded by property tax. Plus a little by the state. But mostly from property tax. That's never going to change until the inner city people are ABLE to vote, and DO vote. Because the older people and the people who live in fancy towns like it the way it is. They want their money to go to their schools so their kids can beat out the Cleveland kids and Lorain kids for the good jobs and the seats in college. No politician is going to try to make that change, because that would piss off the people who do vote. And he needs those votes to stay in office.

Someone has to step in and fix that problem. The po folk have to get out and vote. The working class dog needs to have polls open when they're not working. That's just a start.

There's no easy fix, but there are fixes.
User avatar
Spin
 
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:16 am
Location: the burbs of Akron
Favorite Player: Jack N. Coke
Least Favorite Player: 72 hour work weeks

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:33 am

The last two post are doing a lot of assuming - assuming people give a shit. Look, when teacher conference attendance is 5%, when children are taking care of children, when people don't have enough pride to take care of their house and property, among a hundred other more things, we can go ahead and assume that voting is pretty low on the list.

It's over. O-V-E-R.
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6626
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:37 am

There is quality education in every city even in community colleges


My point about CSU is that it is under achieving right now, it is not a community college but it gets treated like one and part of that is the City's fault and CSU's fault.

I do not mean to down play any one person's degree from CSU, getting a degree is not necessarily easy anywhere and people should be proud.

The other thing about Cleveland education is the residents know the schools suck, even the residents who don't have children in the system. Yet the system is always looking for more money, and it has been proven time and time again money isn't the only/best solution for education problems. But the residents don't want to give up any more of their hard earned money to a system that simple never changes, and who can blame those residents. It is a vicious perpetual cycle.

For a great read on the education system in this country as a whole read The NEA: Trojan Horse in American Education, by Samuel Blumenfeld. You'll only find it used.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13357
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby ProgRocker » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:58 am

FUDU wrote:
There is quality education in every city even in community colleges


My point about CSU is that it is under achieving right now, it is not a community college but it gets treated like one and part of that is the City's fault and CSU's fault.

I do not mean to down play any one person's degree from CSU, getting a degree is not necessarily easy anywhere and people should be proud.

The other thing about Cleveland education is the residents know the schools suck, even the residents who don't have children in the system. Yet the system is always looking for more money, and it has been proven time and time again money isn't the only/best solution for education problems. But the residents don't want to give up any more of their hard earned money to a system that simple never changes, and who can blame those residents. It is a vicious perpetual cycle.

For a great read on the education system in this country as a whole read The NEA: Trojan Horse in American Education, by Samuel Blumenfeld. You'll only find it used.


All good points except for any gratuitous union-bashing. Yes, unions protect folks -- but it's more of a bureaucratic thing than a union thing. Trust me, I see the same thing in Chicago where I live. Bureaucracies protect their own whether unionized or not, and those are what need to be attacked.
User avatar
ProgRocker
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:06 pm

The NEA is a joke, to the point of criminal.

Hell many consider them to be communist, hard to argue against it, just look at their "significant achievements" time line.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13357
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:52 pm

The NEA: Trojan Horse in American Education, by Samuel Blumenfeld.


Im going to try to find this book thanks for the reccomendation.[/code]
"Our name is Legion, for we are many."
User avatar
Cerebral_DownTime
Go f#%k yourself
 
Posts: 14422
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:31 am
Location: Galloway Ohio
Favorite Player: Fenrir
Least Favorite Player: Walt Flannigan's dog

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:36 pm

FUDU wrote:The NEA is a joke, to the point of criminal.

Hell many consider them to be communist, hard to argue against it, just look at their "significant achievements" time line.


Wow, never heard of it like that. I guess lobbying for pay and benefits on par with the importance of the job should be done by individual teachers. I can't imagine what being a teacher would be like with out a union. Keep a few things in mind:

1. Shit rolls down hill. Politicians make the laws, most of the time without information or experience on how those laws will mitriculate through the system. No child left behind is a great example of an unfunded mandate, with unattainable goals, that looks good on paper. The NEA helps bring to light the problems with laws like this, hopefully to educate those who are writing and passing said bills.

2. The ohio education funding system has actually been ruled illegal. It wasn't until new judges were appointed that that ruling was overturned. Shit, a few years ago the ohio board of educaton implemented an intelligent design lesson into the state science curriculum. NEA fights things like this, on the political level. Most teachers don't have time to schmoose politicians and media agencies.

3. Their is not a single business in the world that would stay operational if it were in the same conditions as public schools. Forget about salary issues, or faculty support (although these are also big issues) I'm just talking about facilities. Condemend buildings, poor/ no heating and ventillation, mold, leaking roofs, broken/ unuseable desks, books, lockers, bathrooms...... it goes on and on. A union at least gives you the opportunity to try and get some of it fixed, or bring it to the attention of the proper people.

4. I joined for the insurance. $1 million in liability insurance and discounted legal fees. You don't think it's a big deal until a student physically threatens you. What if you had to defend yourself, and then, as a result, not only would you lose your job, but get sued for it and never get hired in another school.

I'm not being overly dramatic, try being a subsitute teacher for a few weeks in any of cleveland city schools, then come back and tell me you don't want someone to cover your ass.
This natural coozy comes free with every Miller Time
Image
User avatar
Erie Warrior
Goose Slayer
 
Posts: 6495
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:50 pm
Location: Hampton, VA
Favorite Player: 1995 Indians
Least Favorite Player: Global Warming

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:53 pm

The NEA helps bring to light the problems with laws like this


The NEA helps pass many of the laws, those same bad laws.

The NEA is arguably the worst thing to ever happen to education in this country.

Just read the book.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13357
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:05 pm

You can't read a book and decide that one orginization has ruined education in America. That's like saying something is true because you read it on the internet. I have not read that book, but have personally dealt with the NEA, and see mostly positives for both the community and members in their work.

If the nature of your job is political, not participating in politics would be unthinkable. When is the last time you told your doctor or your mechanic how to do their job? Yet that same thing is done on a daily basis to teachers. Everyone has their opinions on how things should be done, the NEA helps laws makers develop informed opinions. I'm sure they have made mistakes, but who hasn't. Their goal is to makes schools better for everyone.
This natural coozy comes free with every Miller Time
Image
User avatar
Erie Warrior
Goose Slayer
 
Posts: 6495
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:50 pm
Location: Hampton, VA
Favorite Player: 1995 Indians
Least Favorite Player: Global Warming

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:19 pm

You can't read a book and decide that one orginization has ruined education in America.


You can depending on the author(s) and source(s) of the book.

I have not read that book, but have personally dealt with the NEA, and see mostly positives for both the community and members in their work.


The book was written by Dr. Samuel L. Blumenfeld, and just like you he has personally dealt with the NEA, he has taught in private and public schools and studied various types of teaching methods and learning disabilities.

I understand you wanting to defend your profession, and your profession is not what I am criticizing here, but trust me read the darn book.
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13357
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:19 pm

The whole American educational system needs to be reformed - from the top.

America leads the world in one educational category;
We spend more per public school student than any other nation.

Money is not the root of this problem.
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6626
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Unread postby Spin » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:21 am

Money is not the root of this problem.


No, the money is not the problem, at a lot of places.

But you walk through Hudson High School or Perry High School and then walk through Buchtel High School or James Rhodes High School and then tell me there's not a problem with how the schools are funded.

You need to see some of these buildings. The books they have. Poorly lit. Some are still heated by coal. In some, the only electric in some of the rooms is brought in by an extension cord because the water ruined the wiring. Plaster falling down on the kids. Having to walk through several inches of water to go from room to room. There are schools you wouldn't feel safe walking through.

If you don't believe me, go find out for yourself. visit an inner-city school, or a rural school in a depressed area. It'll make you sick that this is the best we can do for American kids. The people who will be taking care of us someday.
User avatar
Spin
 
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:16 am
Location: the burbs of Akron
Favorite Player: Jack N. Coke
Least Favorite Player: 72 hour work weeks

Next

Return to No Holds Barred

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests