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City of Cleveland: "Shit, we're outta money!"

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Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:45 am

Spin wrote:
Money is not the root of this problem.


No, the money is not the problem, at a lot of places.

But you walk through Hudson High School or Perry High School and then walk through Buchtel High School or James Rhodes High School and then tell me there's not a problem with how the schools are funded.

You need to see some of these buildings. The books they have. Poorly lit. Some are still heated by coal. In some, the only electric in some of the rooms is brought in by an extension cord because the water ruined the wiring. Plaster falling down on the kids. Having to walk through several inches of water to go from room to room. There are schools you wouldn't feel safe walking through.

If you don't believe me, go find out for yourself. visit an inner-city school, or a rural school in a depressed area. It'll make you sick that this is the best we can do for American kids. The people who will be taking care of us someday.


And what are America's richest schools and private schools getting for the money? America is failing to produce students that measure up globally. The top 5% of American students can be matched with the top 50% of Japanese students. A bankrupt and struggling Russia has over 5 million people studying calculus, America 500,000.

As far as the inner city goes, I've been thru many of the schools (Practicum in East Cleveland's Chambers Elementary). The building situation I'll address in a minute, but the conditions in the inner city pale in comparison to the main reason they lag behind - Nobody gives a shit. Horrible parents, lack of parents - this is what REALLY matters. And, mis-management of funds in a place like Cleveland Public schools is why the conditions suffer. More than enough money was there to be successful. Again, in reference to my last post- America leads in one category - the amount spent per student. This includes the inner city.

Or, let's think about it this way (I'm assuming you have an education background) I'll take 30 kids who's parents care about their education. Who show up to the conferences. Who are active in the students education such as homework and projects. Who pick up the report card. Who care enough to disclipline their student so they know right from wrong BEFORE they enter the classroom. (These are no great feats by the way, you just have to care) I'll take these kids to the coal-warmed building. The one with water logged books and lack of supplies. Someone else can take 30 kids to Perry School's nicest room. Their parents won't show up to conferences, they are uninterested in what their kid is doing, they don't inquire about homework. They have no interest in who you, their teacher is, and many are still children themselves.

At the end of the year who do you think will advance more educationally?

The life expectancy rate is much lower in the inner city as well. It has nothing to do with money, it has everything to do with NON-SENSE.

As far as school buildings nationwide, there probably isn't a worse use of infrastructure in the nation. These bulidings sit unused so many hours of the day and part of the year. Long ago other uses should have been employed such as before and after hour day care, routine medical clinics, adult literacy teaching. Year round school, among other advantages would also keep the bulidings in use.

So, money isn't helping EDUCATION in the wealthier districts and it's not hurting the inner city nearly as much as we've been hoodwinked into believing. There are several nations, poorer than the U.S. that are doing far more with much less. This is fact.
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Unread postby FUDU » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:28 pm

Good post Lead and great point about putting the kids who care into the shitty conditions and vice versa.
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Unread postby buckeyefan78 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:40 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:
Spin wrote:
Money is not the root of this problem.


No, the money is not the problem, at a lot of places.

But you walk through Hudson High School or Perry High School and then walk through Buchtel High School or James Rhodes High School and then tell me there's not a problem with how the schools are funded.

You need to see some of these buildings. The books they have. Poorly lit. Some are still heated by coal. In some, the only electric in some of the rooms is brought in by an extension cord because the water ruined the wiring. Plaster falling down on the kids. Having to walk through several inches of water to go from room to room. There are schools you wouldn't feel safe walking through.

If you don't believe me, go find out for yourself. visit an inner-city school, or a rural school in a depressed area. It'll make you sick that this is the best we can do for American kids. The people who will be taking care of us someday.


And what are America's richest schools and private schools getting for the money? America is failing to produce students that measure up globally. The top 5% of American students can be matched with the top 50% of Japanese students. A bankrupt and struggling Russia has over 5 million people studying calculus, America 500,000.

As far as the inner city goes, I've been thru many of the schools (Practicum in East Cleveland's Chambers Elementary). The building situation I'll address in a minute, but the conditions in the inner city pale in comparison to the main reason they lag behind - Nobody gives a shit. Horrible parents, lack of parents - this is what REALLY matters. And, mis-management of funds in a place like Cleveland Public schools is why the conditions suffer. More than enough money was there to be successful. Again, in reference to my last post- America leads in one category - the amount spent per student. This includes the inner city.

Or, let's think about it this way (I'm assuming you have an education background) I'll take 30 kids who's parents care about their education. Who show up to the conferences. Who are active in the students education such as homework and projects. Who pick up the report card. Who care enough to disclipline their student so they know right from wrong BEFORE they enter the classroom. (These are no great feats by the way, you just have to care) I'll take these kids to the coal-warmed building. The one with water logged books and lack of supplies. Someone else can take 30 kids to Perry School's nicest room. Their parents won't show up to conferences, they are uninterested in what their kid is doing, they don't inquire about homework. They have no interest in who you, their teacher is, and many are still children themselves.

At the end of the year who do you think will advance more educationally?

The life expectancy rate is much lower in the inner city as well. It has nothing to do with money, it has everything to do with NON-SENSE.

As far as school buildings nationwide, there probably isn't a worse use of infrastructure in the nation. These bulidings sit unused so many hours of the day and part of the year. Long ago other uses should have been employed such as before and after hour day care, routine medical clinics, adult literacy teaching. Year round school, among other advantages would also keep the bulidings in use.

So, money isn't helping EDUCATION in the wealthier districts and it's not hurting the inner city nearly as much as we've been hoodwinked into believing. There are several nations, poorer than the U.S. that are doing far more with much less. This is fact.


Money is the problem but not at the level you are addressing in this post.

Nobody giving a hoot is simply a byproduct of system where wealth/advantage are contingent upon another segment having less.

You write...

"The life expectancy rate is much lower in the inner city as well. It has nothing to do with money, it has everything to do with NON-SENSE."

That non-sense word is pretty vague but I'd describe it as the end result of a capitalist society. Nothing more.

You also write...

"There are several nations, poorer than the U.S. that are doing far more with much less. This is fact."

But in the U.S. people of extreme poverty are expected to compete with people of extreme wealth. That may not be the case in other poorer nations. I don't know. You didn't give specific examples.

Again, on the surface I would agree with your post to a certain extent (folks not giving a hoot) but the fact that we have certain districts with overwhelming advantages in many aspects doesn't help matters.

Then again, it doesn't help matters in life in general...which is the point.
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Unread postby Spin » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:06 am

No I'm not in education. I just finished up in sociology, working toward a nursing degree. We read the statistics, saw the videos of schools in Ohio's "Appalachia".

And video of Perry High, funded in large part by property tax from the nuc, with it's indoor pools and computer labs that looks more like a major university. Attending Intel's "Most connected campus in the world", I was impressed with their tech.

You are right, a big problem is that in many cases, the parents don't care. The teachers are burned out dealing with the system and the delinquents, and they don't care. And the administrators, and a lot of other people are to blame.

But what about the few students who despite all that DO care? The LeBron's who grew up in bad neighborhoods, bad schools (until the scholarship from St.V/M), and parents who didn't care? How do the LeBron's succeed if they can't dunk a basketball? They could change the world with the opportunities at Perry. At Buchtel instead of an indoor pool they have 4" of water in the hallway. instead of large computer labs they have 3 classrooms with one outdated computer each. They're screwed.

The biggest determining factor of your ACT and SAT scores is how much your family makes. What social class you are in.

I do agree with you about the quality of the education. Kids learn what they need to know to pass the OGT. Most of the year is spent on getting ready for that. Chop up the classes that are available because they need to learn the OGT. If they don't, the school gets a bad rating, and heads will roll. Like the ACT and SAT, wtf does the OGT have to do with real life?

Lots of problems, lots of people to blame.

I think it starts with education. Ford had to close a plant, they closed Lorain and kept Avon Lake open. How much did that have to do with the quality of the work force in those two regions? Cleveland loses an industry, Wadsworth adds one. Coincidence?
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Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:59 am

Spin, I understand your point, but I believe you might be missing mine. All I'm saying is that the education system is not working in this country and needs to be reformed from the top. Again, the richest schools may provide more opportunity than the poorer ones (we are quibbling as to what degree) but as a whole, globally, the U.S. students are lagging behind. Furthermore, the travesty that is the education system has contributed greatly to money problems the districts you speak of have (along with the nonsense such as kids raising kids, lack of responsibility and the backfiring of the governments enabling).

A few glaring things wrong;

The most successful schools in this country hold one thing in common-a determined principal who is an academic leader and takes pride in the achievements of the students. Unfortunately, modern society has deluged schools with bureacratic orders from the high which handcuff the excellent principals and allow prinipals that have no business on the job to lead a school for years.

Until teachers are treated as respected professionals in this country, problems will continue. Better pay and increased community recognition would be a good start. The benefit to this is twofold, not only would you attract highly educated people who now are doctors and lawyers, but this would open the door to hold educators at the rigourous standards these doctors and lawyers are held to now. The single most successful educational enterprise in the country in the military. It would be nice if the thousands of officers when reentering the job market considered education in the schools. This would be especially helpful in the inner city, no?

Establish national standards and measure results. How does your school measure up nationally and globally? Who the hell knows. That info ain't easy to find. A 200 million dollar enterprise working in the dark? We don't find this curious? If you had a 200 million dollar business you'd be damn interested in what the results were in relation to your competition. How come parents have no idea how the school their kids go to compares to others?

Spend money wisely. Enough on the research. The department of education spent 150 million on studies, and this was about 10 years ago. I'd like to see the current number. Point being, there already plenty of programs that work. Spend the money developing these and enough with the shit that's going to end up in a file.

Lastly, how all this relates to the inner city, I'm not so sure. None of the above matters if the parents don't care. But in the situations were the parents do care, we've got to straighten things out for them. Throwing more money at the problem is not a solution.
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Unread postby General » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:22 am

Reverend, I agree wholeheartedly with you and I maintain that it MUST start at home. If the support for the educators is not there and the attitude projected toward them is wrong then I don't care how much you are paying them. Back in the day in Euclid Public schools my teachers had god-like status in our home and school was THE number one thing in the house. If grades weren't there or discipline was handed out at school. The home end of it was always worse. Groundings, no sports, no TV, the inevitable beating, ie spanking. I am not saying those tactics will work today but IMHO the home environment is g-o-n-e.
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Unread postby swerb » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:26 am

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Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:39 am

General wrote:Reverend, I agree wholeheartedly with you and I maintain that it MUST start at home. If the support for the educators is not there and the attitude projected toward them is wrong then I don't care how much you are paying them. Back in the day in Euclid Public schools my teachers had god-like status in our home and school was THE number one thing in the house. If grades weren't there or discipline was handed out at school. The home end of it was always worse. Groundings, no sports, no TV, the inevitable beating, ie spanking. I am not saying those tactics will work today but IMHO the home environment is g-o-n-e.


You are not allowed to discipline at school anymore, or you'll hear from little Johnny's lawyer. You know little Johnny. He's the one who's parents take his 4th grade word over that of once respected adults in the classroom.

So to your point of teachers being respected, can you slap them in the face anymore than having their word fall behind that of a 10 year old? Yet this is now the reality, and adds to the problem.
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Unread postby General » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:26 am

Lead Pipe wrote:
General wrote:Reverend, I agree wholeheartedly with you and I maintain that it MUST start at home. If the support for the educators is not there and the attitude projected toward them is wrong then I don't care how much you are paying them. Back in the day in Euclid Public schools my teachers had god-like status in our home and school was THE number one thing in the house. If grades weren't there or discipline was handed out at school. The home end of it was always worse. Groundings, no sports, no TV, the inevitable beating, ie spanking. I am not saying those tactics will work today but IMHO the home environment is g-o-n-e.


You are not allowed to discipline at school anymore, or you'll hear from little Johnny's lawyer. You know little Johnny. He's the one who's parents take his 4th grade word over that of once respected adults in the classroom.

So to your point of teachers being respected, can you slap them in the face anymore than having their word fall behind that of a 10 year old? Yet this is now the reality, and adds to the problem.


Hell, even Marine Corps boot camp has been toned down, no doubt due to our over litiginous society.
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Unread postby FUDU » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:20 pm

If I may add, one thing I hear from a lot of teachers is "I am not a baby sitter".


Um, sorry to burst your ego bubble, but yeah you are. Anybody who is responsible or in charge of two dozen or so kids for 7-8 hours a day is indeed a baby sitter, no matter what your degree or union rep says.

It isn't supposed to be that way, but it is , get over it.
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Unread postby Audie » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:12 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:
General wrote:Reverend, I agree wholeheartedly with you and I maintain that it MUST start at home. If the support for the educators is not there and the attitude projected toward them is wrong then I don't care how much you are paying them. Back in the day in Euclid Public schools my teachers had god-like status in our home and school was THE number one thing in the house. If grades weren't there or discipline was handed out at school. The home end of it was always worse. Groundings, no sports, no TV, the inevitable beating, ie spanking. I am not saying those tactics will work today but IMHO the home environment is g-o-n-e.


You are not allowed to discipline at school anymore, or you'll hear from little Johnny's lawyer. You know little Johnny. He's the one who's parents take his 4th grade word over that of once respected adults in the classroom.

So to your point of teachers being respected, can you slap them in the face anymore than having their word fall behind that of a 10 year old? Yet this is now the reality, and adds to the problem.



What you're not mentioning is that you're not allowed to discipline your kids at home anymore either lest some teacher turn you in for child abuse and you have your kids taken away

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Unread postby Erie Warrior » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:44 pm

FUDU wrote:If I may add, one thing I hear from a lot of teachers is "I am not a baby sitter".


Um, sorry to burst your ego bubble, but yeah you are. Anybody who is responsible or in charge of two dozen or so kids for 7-8 hours a day is indeed a baby sitter, no matter what your degree or union rep says.

It isn't supposed to be that way, but it is , get over it.


Actually, that ego bubble is all teachers have left. Would you say that the employees at a pediatrics ward in a hospital are baysitters also? Or foster parents or social workers? It is imperative that these folks are considered the foundation of society and given their due credit and respect. How many sucessful people, when asked the reason for their success, credit a babysitter? Bottom line is I spend more time with children than their parents do. I can tell you where they will be during the weekend, who they really hang out with, what kind of drugs, gangs, sex, alcohol, or illegal activities they do when they tell you "Suzy and I are doing a project together". I can tell you why they are depressed, or why they act out, or why they hate you. I may even be able to tell what level of education you have, and how much money you make/ job you have without even meeting you (apples don't fall far form the tree). All the things they are too embarassed or scared to tell you, they tell me. Every time they are bullied, embarassed, scared, raped, hit, antagonized, worried, happy, sad or unsure of something, the come to me.

You say babysitter, I say most important job ever. And you had better hope every teacher your child has feels the same way.

(I am using "you" in a collective sense to mean most parents/ members of society. This is not a personal attack on FUDU)
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Unread postby buckeyefan78 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:12 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
FUDU wrote:If I may add, one thing I hear from a lot of teachers is "I am not a baby sitter".


Um, sorry to burst your ego bubble, but yeah you are. Anybody who is responsible or in charge of two dozen or so kids for 7-8 hours a day is indeed a baby sitter, no matter what your degree or union rep says.

It isn't supposed to be that way, but it is , get over it.


Actually, that ego bubble is all teachers have left. Would you say that the employees at a pediatrics ward in a hospital are baysitters also? Or foster parents or social workers? It is imperative that these folks are considered the foundation of society and given their due credit and respect. How many sucessful people, when asked the reason for their success, credit a babysitter? Bottom line is I spend more time with children than their parents do. I can tell you where they will be during the weekend, who they really hang out with, what kind of drugs, gangs, sex, alcohol, or illegal activities they do when they tell you "Suzy and I are doing a project together". I can tell you why they are depressed, or why they act out, or why they hate you. I may even be able to tell what level of education you have, and how much money you make/ job you have without even meeting you (apples don't fall far form the tree). All the things they are too embarassed or scared to tell you, they tell me. Every time they are bullied, embarassed, scared, raped, hit, antagonized, worried, happy, sad or unsure of something, the come to me.

You say babysitter, I say most important job ever. And you had better hope every teacher your child has feels the same way.

(I am using "you" in a collective sense to mean most parents/ members of society. This is not a personal attack on FUDU)


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Unread postby FUDU » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:18 pm

I wouldn't argue too much with what you said Erie.

My response was more meant for the teachers in the world that want to have it both ways, bitch and moan that they shouldn't have to be the baby sitters of the world yet use that same line to defend their professions.

Good post.

I think a middle ground that we can meet on here is that in today's world there are fewer parents that care (I'll be honest many parents look to the school to be their baby sitter) and fewer teachers that care as well.

Everybody loses b/c of it.
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Unread postby Spin » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:22 am

Don't know why I thought of this. But year before last I worked a JV game at James Rhodes High in Cleveland.

Here in Wadsworth we draw a couple hundred fans for middle school football. maybe 100+ for JV.

At Rhodes, there were NO fans. Nobody was there. They had to find someone to come and unlock the locker rooms.

Apathy. For the schools. For their own children.

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Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:09 pm

Spin wrote:Don't know why I thought of this. But year before last I worked a JV game at James Rhodes High in Cleveland.

Here in Wadsworth we draw a couple hundred fans for middle school football. maybe 100+ for JV.

At Rhodes, there were NO fans. Nobody was there. They had to find someone to come and unlock the locker rooms.

Apathy. For the schools. For their own children.

We're all looking at the same problem from different angles, not disagreeing, just discussing. It all starts with eddumacashin.


The wife is the director of audiology with University hospitals. She does hearing testing, (much of it done to infants to rule out illnesses) When she is at the Mentor location, attendance is damn near 100%. When she is in Cleveland, they will double book because the KNOW people aren't going to show up.

The question I would ask is; if you aren't going to show up for your one year olds hearing screening. Something that will effect one of the five senses, his balance, his communication and social skills, his abilities in the future workforce - hell his overall quality of life.

If you don't give a fuck enough about your kid to take him to an appointment which may improve his LIFE, I guarantee you don't give a fuck about his education.

And, this is not a freak occurence, as I inferred to above, it happens DAILY.

I have had to tell her to cease telling me stories from down there, because my head was about to explode.
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