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President in '08?

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President in '08?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:49 pm

So who is it going to be? I dont know about you but if this country elects another Republican Jesus freak im moving to Canada. The field is pretty weak on both sides Obama is the only one I can see myself voting for Clinton scares the shit out of me. Rudy Giuliani is one of the biggest scumbags i've ever seen did you know for awhile you could make donations to him in $9.11, $911, and $9,110 amounts? How nice to benifit from human tragedy. Ron Paul says somethings i like but if most people knew he wanted to get rid of the Dept Of Education they wouldnt vote for him.

Politics have become "Elect the lesser evil" which is so bad for our country.We have no one that cares about the Low/Middle income families. We are stuck in a pointless war where brave Americans are getting blown-up by chickenshit IEDs,and for what? Turn on the TV and you hear the mindless banter of souless talking heads like Bill O'Reilly and Lou "kick out the Mexicans" Dobbs. Im very worried about this country and where its going the leaders we have now deserve nothing better than 12 hours of the Bastinado. If you dont agree with me thats fine Im a firm believer in the notion that those who want to kill dissent will eventualy want to kill dissenters. WAKE UP, WISE UP, AND RISE UP.
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Unread postby Joens » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:01 pm

elects another Republican Jesus freak im moving to Canada
couldnt agree with yah more. that thought already crossed my mind.
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Unread postby SteelersStillSuck » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:50 pm

Both sides are full of whackjobs..We're screwed either way!
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Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:55 am

SteelersStillSuck wrote:Both sides are full of whackjobs..We're screwed either way!



Two sides of the same coin.....And remember the Canadian canuck bucks are worth more than the american dollar now. I was in Vancouver in 2005 and they were worth only 73 cents of an American dollar. How the mighty have fallen im telling you this is what it looked like in Rome 450 a.d.
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Unread postby General » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:36 am

The majority of our "middle class" is kept at a certain comfort level that ensures our silence (compliance). Lots of downside for "revolt", unforeseeable upside. But I agree all choices are cut from same cloth, just different parts of the weave. I see out bureaucracy as the main reason nothing substantial is done, by the time anything meaningful makes it out of committee, both houses (lobbyists), and finally law it is so watered down that it is virtually meaningless. The gov't needs serious streamlining, good luck there, too many seven figure incomes riding on that one. I will probably vote for the one who talks up tax reform with the caveat that I have no real hope of them really following through. This is the greatest country in history, but unfortunately the potential for so-o-o-o-o much more is there.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:43 pm

Politics is now a business, Republican, Democrat or otherwise.

There was a time when it wasn't like that, but that time is long over. Whatever person holds that office next won't give a shit about the American public either.
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Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:10 pm

i guess christopher walken didnt follow through and campaign

www.walken2008.com

I'd like to see Woody paige as president
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Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:03 pm

I'll vote for any Republican over the shit that the Democrats are throwing out there.

In order, Giuliani, McCain, Huckabee, Thompson, Romney.

That said, I'm very conservative on most everything but abortion.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:32 am

I'm pretty much disgusted with all the candidates. I guess as long as Hillary doesn't win, I'll be satisfied.
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Unread postby dmiles » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:50 am

Anyone seeing the cardboard box stenciled "Google Ron Paul" at stop lights? One of these days I swear I am going to google it, once I start to give a damn.
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Unread postby jfiling » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:29 pm

Depending on who the two parties nominate (and I really want Ron Paul), I'm throwing my support to General Zod.

http://www.zod2008.com/
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Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:53 pm

jfiling wrote:Depending on who the two parties nominate (and I really want Ron Paul), I'm throwing my support to General Zod.

http://www.zod2008.com/


:lol: KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:35 pm

I've been a Mitt Romney guy since before he announced. He has a history of turning things around, pledging to run a top down audit of the Federal Gov't to eliminate redundancy and actually see where all the money is going.

He's turned around numerous companies, the SLC Olympics, and Massacusetts. He will listen to all sides and make his own judgements, but he's always respectful of those his disagrees with. He worked well with Democrats in Mass and made progress. He's well read and realizes the dangers we face going forward. I'm a big fan of his business policies as he wants to reduce the corporate tax rate (now the highest in the world at 40%) to encourage businesses to relocate to the US or stay here. He wants to streamline environmental regs to make it easier for businesses to open and hire employees because right now it's a quagmire and an opportunity to line pockets of public officials.

The man has had success with everything he's touched, including a government in Mass that was in horrible shape.

That said, I'd take any of the Republicans over any of the Democrats. I'm no fan of Huckabee because of his populist stance. I like Guiliani pretty well and think he'd do a good job. I think Romney, Huckabee, and Guiliani are the most likely to get the nomination. If Romney does take Iowa then it may be over because of his strength in NH and Michigan. I like his chances in Iowa because of the nature of the caucuses. Huckabee has a lot of popular support, but only about 80,000 people will actually vote in the caucuses. Romney has the money, the people, and the infrastructure to makes sure his supports get to caucus locations. If he wins there then his strength in the early states will probably cause a surge leading up to Super Tuesday.
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Unread postby fundamentals » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:56 pm

At one point I didn't think the Republicans had a chance but now am beginning to think that the Democrats now don't stand a chance come next November.
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Here's the deal

Unread postby PitbullTerrier » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:32 pm

Republicans have proven, throughout their failed tenures, that they'll spend your money, your kids money, their kids money, and give it to all their friends and start a LOT of wars with it.

Friends don't let friends vote Republican. They're all retarded, crooked, and misguided like Bill O'Liely, Ann Cuntler, and Shawna Hannity.

My vote is going to Hillary. That bitch can speak, and I know that it'll be her husbad, not her, who'll be running shit. Bill Clinton was the greatest American President, EVER!

A vote for Hillary brings back Bill for 4 glorious more years.

Or, you can vote for me, PBT.

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Re: Here's the deal

Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:14 pm

PitbullTerrier wrote:Republicans have proven, throughout their failed tenures, that they'll spend your money, your kids money, their kids money, and give it to all their friends and start a LOT of wars with it.


So have Democrats, only to a larger scale.

Friends don't let friends vote Republican. They're all retarded, crooked, and misguided like Bill O'Liely, Ann Cuntler, and Shawna Hannity.


Nice, nasty statement there.

My vote is going to Hillary. That bitch can speak, and I know that it'll be her husbad, not her, who'll be running shit. Bill Clinton was the greatest American President, EVER!


Certainly you have every right to. I'd dispute that Clinton was the greatest ever. I'd say he was pretty middling. Certainly better than the disasters that were Jimmy Carter and Lyndon Johnson, though Bill Clinton was always loathe to take much of a stand on everything because he cared more about popular opinion than conviction.

As far as Democrat presidents go in the 20th century, I'd put Clinton above Carter, Johnson, Wilson, Kennedy (who was an unmitigated disaster apart from a few good things). He'd be below FDR and Truman. As for his comparisons with other Presidents in the 20th, definitely below Reagan, Teddy Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Coolidge, and maybe Taft.

Historically there's no way to put him above Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson, Lincoln, Cleveland, Polk, or McKinley.

A vote for Hillary brings back Bill for 4 glorious more years.


Not really. A vote for Hillary puts a 60s radical/socialist in power. She still advocates socialized medicine, even as its failures are clear in Europe and Canada (feel like waiting 6-8 weeks for a bypass after a heartattack or several months for a MRI?). Her economic policies would be a disaster for the US.

Or, you can vote for me, PBT.

PBT


Depends on your political outlook.

I think I'll stick with Mitt.
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Unread postby FUDU » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:26 pm

The only thing I can say about voting in the 2008 elections is that for the first time in my life (I'm a 1971 model) I am scared out of my mind to vote.

It's sad that in such a great country with such possibilities that I cannot say "you can't go wrong" in regards to whomever one casts a vote for.
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Unread postby BernieBrown » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:55 pm

FUDU wrote:It's sad that in such a great country with such possibilities that I cannot say "you can't go wrong" in regards to whomever one casts a vote for.


Very sad, but very true. Its funny how they tell any kid that they can become president, but they fail to tell the poor kid what is necessary to accomplish it.

First you must pick a party, but you only have two choices because none of the other parties have a chance in hell. The two parties that you can choose from are basically the same party made up of the same people. Bought off by the same corporations.

The only difference between the parties is that they differ on a few hot button issues like abortion and gay marriage and the topic of the moment (Iraq War).

Our political process has become a giant machine that spits out row after row of carbon copy PC, big government loving, corporate shills, each one caring less and less about this countries well fare.

The top priority for the POTUS has become his constituents and special interest groups that contribute money to him so he can smear the other guys with non stop TV ads.

Speaking of the smear commercials does anyone really want to vote for any of the candidates by the time the election rolls around? Its like your standing in a both deciding which lying criminal sell out you want to lead the country.

I would be half tempted not to vote at all if I did not feel it is my civic duty as one of the few informed voters. This time though I may just close my eyes and throw a dart. Yep its gotten that bad.
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:58 pm

FUDU wrote:The only thing I can say about voting in the 2008 elections is that for the first time in my life (I'm a 1971 model) I am scared out of my mind to vote.

It's sad that in such a great country with such possibilities that I cannot say "you can't go wrong" in regards to whomever one casts a vote for.


You weren't scared to chose between Kerry and GW?
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Unread postby FUDU » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:10 pm

You weren't scared to chose between Kerry and GW?


A bit, but since, GWB has proved to be no different than all the rest, and that is not a compliment to anyone or the lot of them in general.

It's like having a menu full of nothing but McRibs or McNuggets.
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Re: Here's the deal

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:22 pm

PitbullTerrier wrote:Republicans have proven, throughout their failed tenures, that they'll spend your money, your kids money, their kids money, and give it to all their friends and start a LOT of wars with it.


Wow. This is such an ignorant statement, it's not even funny. By the way, Hillary paid for her book through campaign donations. Good mismanagement of funds from loyalists of her Senate campaign.

Try this on for size:

The Democrats are proposing national health care. Where the hell do you think the money for that will come from? You. Me. Your family, your kids, and their kids, assuming the system is still in place. If you have health insurance currently, it far supercedes any health care you will get from a national system. Voluntary surgeries can take up to a year to get done. Your paychecks will be considerably smaller.

Not to mention, the current medical economy in the United States accounts for 1/6 of the total economy. Think about that for a minute. You got it? 1/6 of the economy. Where is that money going to be put into the economy?

Where will the money go to fund social programs like welfare? Who's going to pay for the illegal immigrants that the Dems will allow into this country to suck up health care benefits? Your pocket, my pocket, and my kids' pockets.

Maybe you should be a bit more informed before you go thinking that the economy will be all rosy under the Dems.

I'd be interested in knowing who you work for. Are you a small business employee or owner? I hope not. The constant minimum wage increases will drive you under or force you into unemployment. Do you work for a manufacturer and are you part of a Union? I hope not. National health care will be extremely inferior to your current benefits package. Do you work at McDonalds? Good, Hillary and the Dems need your vote.

Friends don't let friends vote Republican. They're all retarded, crooked, and misguided like Bill O'Liely, Ann Cuntler, and Shawna Hannity.

My vote is going to Hillary. That bitch can speak, and I know that it'll be her husbad, not her, who'll be running shit. Bill Clinton was the greatest American President, EVER!


You are certainly entitled to your opinion, albeit, misinformed. You are totally mislead if you think that Hillary Clinton will allow Bill any range of power. He'll be a dignitary and a diplomat. Absolutely nothing more.

I think a lot of people will tell you that FDR, who rectified the country from the Great Depression and got us through WWII, was a much better President than Bill. I could name at least ten others if you would like me to.

She can speak to the masses, yes. But so could Hitler, Stalin, Chavez, and Lenin. If you aren't familiar with them, and judging by your ignorance, you aren't, Hitler was the Nazi Party leader during WWII in Germany. Stalin purged and killed millions of his own people in a blatant abuse of power, among other things. Chavez is the asshole currently trying to assume full authoritarian and socialist control of Venezuela. Lenin, author of the Communist Manifesto, spawned the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia during the 1910s.

People like Hillary Clinton appeal to a majority that they can manipulate. Congratulations for falling under that demographic.
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Unread postby furls » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:00 pm

This reminds me of the election satire episode of South Park where they were voting on the school mascot and their choices were like a Douchebag and a Turd Sandwich. What do you think the writers were really getting at?

I think it was my exact position that they are all FUCKING scumbags who sold their souls long ago. Politics has always been the "rich man's game." I know there have been times when nobodies from nowhere got elected, but by and large it is a rich man's game. Unfortunately, long ago political service went from being noblesse oblige to a shameless cash grab. Any of you who hold to the belief that one party is less evil than the other or more war mongering or less spending are out of your minds.

The Republicans cut taxes and increase spending, the democrats increase taxes while increasing spending, in the end, the only things that they have in common is their complete and total inability to turn away a political action committee or say no to a spending bill.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:02 pm

They all suck.

Vote for me.
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Unread postby Oasis » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:40 am

Kennedy (who was an unmitigated disaster apart from a few good things).

His standing up to Kruschev, who it was ultimately proven had placed offensive nuclear weapons 90 miles out in Cuba was a disaster?

The CIA fucked up the entire BoP, in everything from the initial planning to the logistics (you can't march 50 miles through swamp to engage the enemy)

The Kennedy tax cuts invigorated the economy (90% at the time was top marginal) just when it appeared we were lurching toward recession.

What were Kennedy's failures, Mac?

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Unread postby I'mwiththeband » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:59 am

<<What were Kennedy's failures, Mac?

He didn't put a pillow over Teddy's face when he was a kid. That, and he rode around in a convertable in Dallas. Other than that, he was probably the best President between FDR and now*.

*Yes, this includes the Right's St. Ronald of the Jelly Beans.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:55 am

With as much of a figurehead that position has become, I think that awarding the "Best President" title to a guy who layed the hammer down on Monroe is very reasonable.
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Good one

Unread postby PitbullTerrier » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:32 am

Did you actually mewl that Democrats manipulate people?

Let's look at this closer, for the red state slowed folk:

- Bush almost manipulated people into accepting Dubai to run our ports, a country renowned for terrorism. Thank Sweet Baby Jesus for Democrats who said, "over our dead bodies" and shit-canned that failed Bush experiment.

- Wiretapping and torture under the guise of The Patriot Act and Counter-terrorism? And then actually claiming that they weren't aware of it, even though there are physical memo's from Bush and Cheney. Yeah, we're manipulated, and it isn't by Dems.

- The IRS actually auditing more middle class Americans and leaving the rich alone, ala Republican standards, so they can pay for this immoral and illegal war declared on a sovereign nation that had nothing to do with 9/11:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/16/business/16tax.html

Yeah, Dems are manipulating this one. You rock.

- Bush had a SURPLUS when he came into the office from Bill Clinton, aka The Greatest President Ever. He now has us in a multi-trillion dollar debt and it is growing steadily. Meanwhile, more people are losing their homes, gas is at its highest ever, and Oil companies are making record profits. Yeah, Dems manipulated us all there.

- "You're doing a great job, Brownie". Enough said there. Shameful. Must have been the Dems fault Bush is a racist and so incompetent.

- Ignored pre-9/11 intelligence because Alfred E. Neuman, aka Gorgonzola Rice didn't see the danger in anyone hi-jacking planes and flying them into our buildings. Good job, Dumbya.

I could go on and on for days, but you get the point. Red State hicks are fooled one at a time, but always come around and vote for the wrong candidate, especially if he lies and says he's a Jesus freak like Huckabee or like Bush did last election. You can bet that with another Republican regime that this country will be at war with the world, broke, and completely at the mercy of our creditors.

Tell me again how anyone is being manipulated by the Dems again. That was a good one.

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Unread postby comish » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:17 pm

The world of politics is muddled to be sure!

I tell people all the time that their best bet when voting is to vote their career (If they have one).

For a public school teacher, the Republicans have been a disaster. NCLB (No Child Left Behind) is an un-funded joke that has every district scurrying around like the ship is on fire.

It is NOT the ONLY education related issue that has the NEA and OEA rallying against most Rep candidates.

I don't agree with EVERY stance the Dems have, but until the Reps change their attitude toward public schools, what reasonable choice do I have? And yes, I understand that a national health care system may me worse than what I have now
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Re: Good one

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:59 pm

PitbullTerrier wrote:Did you actually mewl that Democrats manipulate people?

- Bush almost manipulated people into accepting Dubai to run our ports, a country renowned for terrorism. Thank Sweet Baby Jesus for Democrats who said, "over our dead bodies" and shit-canned that failed Bush experiment.


Yes, those Democrats who are so concerned with national security. Setting a timetable for pulling out of the Middle East is exactly what the terrorists want and the ignorant Democrats, who just want public support, are trying to give it to them. The fact is that terrorist organizations still exist in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, Israel, and other countries in that area. If the United States were to exit Iraq and leave a weak system of government, these terrorist organizations would have free range to do whatever they wanted in the area, including mobilize for another attack.

- Wiretapping and torture under the guise of The Patriot Act and Counter-terrorism? And then actually claiming that they weren't aware of it, even though there are physical memo's from Bush and Cheney. Yeah, we're manipulated, and it isn't by Dems.


What's wrong with torture? You are in favor of humane treatment of known criminals and terrorists? That's preposterous. Wiretapping may be a slight intrusion of civil liberties, but in times of turmoil, it may be necessary to limit some liberties for the good of the public as a whole. If that means that my phone call gets listened to, good. As long as the government is doing what it is sworn to do- protect the American public. Personally, I feel peace of mind knowing that potential terrorist cells are being monitored. There hasn't been another attack on US soil since 9/11, has there?

- The IRS actually auditing more middle class Americans and leaving the rich alone, ala Republican standards, so they can pay for this immoral and illegal war declared on a sovereign nation that had nothing to do with 9/11:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/16/business/16tax.html

Yeah, Dems are manipulating this one. You rock.


So you cite the most liberal mass publication in the country? Good job. The NYT has a history of trying to create a poor image for the GOP.

This immoral war? What is more immoral? The United States removing a known dictator who gassed his people or letting Saddam Hussein stay in power. You watch a lot of CNN and believe only what you hear on that network, don't you?

A sovereign nation? A nation ran by a tyrannical dictator does not constitute sovereignty in my book.

Also, enlighten me. Why is it an illegal war? I remember Congress voting to go to war.

- Bush had a SURPLUS when he came into the office from Bill Clinton, aka The Greatest President Ever. He now has us in a multi-trillion dollar debt and it is growing steadily. Meanwhile, more people are losing their homes, gas is at its highest ever, and Oil companies are making record profits. Yeah, Dems manipulated us all there.


Oil companies are making record profits because people like Hugo Chavez and the other jerkoffs in foreign oil-producing nations are gouging prices for their own gains. If you haven't noticed, Venezuela and Iran are two of the top five oil-producing nations in the world. They don't like us very much these days.

Because Hugo Chavez nationalized the oil industry, without having the capability to refine the product within his own nation, all countries that are dependent on oil take the cost.

People aren't losing their homes because of George W. Bush. People are losing their homes because the morons at the bank continue to give loans to people who can't afford them. The American Dream is to own a home, but not everybody has an inherent right to. The houses that are being foreclosed upon are those owned by the elderly or the poor classes of society. That was a foregone conclusion when they received a loan.

Enlighten me as to why Bill Clinton is the greatest President ever. What the hell did he actually do for this country except show all men that it was possible to get a hummer from a chick as big as a house?

- "You're doing a great job, Brownie". Enough said there. Shameful. Must have been the Dems fault Bush is a racist and so incompetent.


Find me proof that Bush is a racist. Katrina was mishandled by the state and local governments, not the federal government. You can't blame that on him.

- Ignored pre-9/11 intelligence because Alfred E. Neuman, aka Gorgonzola Rice didn't see the danger in anyone hi-jacking planes and flying them into our buildings. Good job, Dumbya.


More CNN conspiracy bullshit. What about Clinton not taking out Osama Bin Laden during his tenure in office? Two snipers held position on him and he told them to hold off. That may not have prevented 9/11, but it certainly could have given the US more time to take the necessary steps to prevent it.

I could go on and on for days, but you get the point. Red State hicks are fooled one at a time, but always come around and vote for the wrong candidate, especially if he lies and says he's a Jesus freak like Huckabee or like Bush did last election. You can bet that with another Republican regime that this country will be at war with the world, broke, and completely at the mercy of our creditors.


Who was the right candidate? The one that CNN and MSNBC endorsed? We aren't at war with the world because of the Republican Party. That's just lunacy. We are at world with the world because 9/11 spawned extensive counter-terrorism activity in numerous countries. Authoritarian leaders like Kim Jong Il, Hugo Chavez, and Saddam Hussein continue to drive us to do what is right for the world. They are oppressing their own people and continuing to spit in the face of democracy.

Try this on for size, pal. You want to talk about "red state hicks". You do realize that every Republican President that took the office has won the state of Ohio. Every single one of them. We also voted against Grover Cleveland in the 1884 Election.

We may be a purple state, but every Republican that became President since Lincoln has won Ohio.


Let me reiterate why you are manipulated by the Democrat Party. You think that the Republican Party is taking away your freedoms? Please. You understand that national health care will take away your right to choose when you have surgery done, when your prescriptions will be available, and your right to choose what insurance provider you want. How about the fact that you will be paying for illegal immigrants' health care? You will be paying for the health care of the poverty-stricken and welfare recipients who are being foreclosed upon already. How about the idea that you will be paying for other people's abortions when the Democrats push a legalization.

You will have very little financial freedom of your own because you will be constantly paying for social programs that are just going to limit your freedoms. The education system might be revamped, sure. But it's unlikely to be on a state level like it should be, based on each individual state's need. Instead, there will be a federal system, designed to hold back the intelligent children while the lesser ones catch up. You will be paying for that.

The Democrats will receive far too much power, taking a majority of it away from the states, and you will feel different financial burdens than you do now. Minimum wage increases will consistently cripple small businesses. Prices will go up across the country on goods and services. As I stated, you will be paying for other people's health care.

But go ahead and punch your vote for Hillary, the Socialist Party candidate. Maybe she'll pick Dennis Kucinich as her VP.
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Re: Good one

Unread postby BRlovestheTribe37 » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:19 pm

PitbullTerrier wrote:- Bush had a SURPLUS when he came into the office from Bill Clinton, aka The Greatest President Ever.
PBT


Really, Clinton's the greatest President ever? Wow! You are lacking some severe knowledge of history. What about FDR, Teddy Roosevelt, Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, Truman? I mean Bush hasn't been the best President, but he is no Ulysses S. Grant (who was a horrible excuse for a President) or Herbert Hoover (who only helped America fall into the Great Depression) or a Harding (who lead one of the most corrupt administrations ever).

Fact is Clinton was an average President.

I haven't decided where my vote is going this year, but it will not be to the socialist Clinton. It's time for a new name in the White House.
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Unread postby Dozen » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:43 pm

comish wrote:The world of politics is muddled to be sure!

I tell people all the time that their best bet when voting is to vote their career (If they have one).

For a public school teacher, the Republicans have been a disaster. NCLB (No Child Left Behind) is an un-funded joke that has every district scurrying around like the ship is on fire.

It is NOT the ONLY education related issue that has the NEA and OEA rallying against most Rep candidates.

I don't agree with EVERY stance the Dems have, but until the Reps change their attitude toward public schools, what reasonable choice do I have? And yes, I understand that a national health care system may me worse than what I have now



You mean like work? Being held accountable? But yet you still have time to post on messageboards.................. Usually inner city people and lazy ass's like democrats..................


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Re: Here's the deal

Unread postby ProgRocker » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:07 pm

Skating Tripods wrote:
PitbullTerrier wrote:Republicans have proven, throughout their failed tenures, that they'll spend your money, your kids money, their kids money, and give it to all their friends and start a LOT of wars with it.


Wow. This is such an ignorant statement, it's not even funny. By the way, Hillary paid for her book through campaign donations. Good mismanagement of funds from loyalists of her Senate campaign.

Try this on for size:

The Democrats are proposing national health care. Where the hell do you think the money for that will come from? You. Me. Your family, your kids, and their kids, assuming the system is still in place. If you have health insurance currently, it far supercedes any health care you will get from a national system. Voluntary surgeries can take up to a year to get done. Your paychecks will be considerably smaller.

Not to mention, the current medical economy in the United States accounts for 1/6 of the total economy. Think about that for a minute. You got it? 1/6 of the economy. Where is that money going to be put into the economy?

Where will the money go to fund social programs like welfare? Who's going to pay for the illegal immigrants that the Dems will allow into this country to suck up health care benefits? Your pocket, my pocket, and my kids' pockets.

Maybe you should be a bit more informed before you go thinking that the economy will be all rosy under the Dems.

I'd be interested in knowing who you work for. Are you a small business employee or owner? I hope not. The constant minimum wage increases will drive you under or force you into unemployment. Do you work for a manufacturer and are you part of a Union? I hope not. National health care will be extremely inferior to your current benefits package. Do you work at McDonalds? Good, Hillary and the Dems need your vote.


My first post here, so I'll be a bit brief:

To your note about health care, all I know is this: I'm 45, have been a sole proprietor for nearly 20 years, have not had any serious medical conditions (knock wood), and I just got hit with a 30% raise in my health insurance premiums, on top of a $2,500 deductible and the hope that if I have a claim it doesn't get fought by my health insurance company. If for the $300 per month I'm paying in premiums I can instead pay them in taxes and in exchange get a British or Canadian-style medical care system (both of which are nowhere near as bad as the right-wing hype machine will have you believe), I'm there so fast your head will spin. Hell, for that I'll pay $500 more a month in taxes since it will mean when I DO need the medical care it will be there without any bitching and I'll be able to keep my condo, none of which is guaranteed under this pathetic excuse of a health care system.

To your assertion that the economy is worse under Democrats, you're just flat-out wrong. The last recession was in 2001. The one before that was in 1991-1992. The one before that was 1987. Notice a pattern yet? Under Reagan-Bush-Bush the economy has been swinging into recessions with a fair amount of regularity. It didn't happen under Clinton, and we're more than likely about to get whacked in the mouth with a big recession in '08. Trickle-down and tax breaks for the uber-wealthy don't work, and that's pretty much the Republican tax plan now and in the foreseeable future. You can have it.

Me, I'm still bobbing between Edwards and Obama, but I am of the opinion that any Democrat -- yes, even freaky Kucinich (who at least has the hottest wife) -- will be better than every Republican running. I almost feel sorry for Republicans with the sad choices they have.

But I do wish Gore ran again. Maybe in '12 ...

(Oh, and one more thing: after seeing Karl Rove manipulate the people in '00 and '04, I think even Hillary has lessons to learn from that weasel.)
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Unread postby comish » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:25 pm

Dozen wrote:
comish wrote:The world of politics is muddled to be sure!

I tell people all the time that their best bet when voting is to vote their career (If they have one).

For a public school teacher, the Republicans have been a disaster. NCLB (No Child Left Behind) is an un-funded joke that has every district scurrying around like the ship is on fire.

It is NOT the ONLY education related issue that has the NEA and OEA rallying against most Rep candidates.

I don't agree with EVERY stance the Dems have, but until the Reps change their attitude toward public schools, what reasonable choice do I have? And yes, I understand that a national health care system may me worse than what I have now



You mean like work? Being held accountable? But yet you still have time to post on messageboards.................. Usually inner city people and lazy ass's like democrats..................


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Re: Here's the deal

Unread postby Dozen » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:25 pm

ProgRocker wrote:
Skating Tripods wrote:
PitbullTerrier wrote:Republicans have proven, throughout their failed tenures, that they'll spend your money, your kids money, their kids money, and give it to all their friends and start a LOT of wars with it.


Wow. This is such an ignorant statement, it's not even funny. By the way, Hillary paid for her book through campaign donations. Good mismanagement of funds from loyalists of her Senate campaign.

Try this on for size:

The Democrats are proposing national health care. Where the hell do you think the money for that will come from? You. Me. Your family, your kids, and their kids, assuming the system is still in place. If you have health insurance currently, it far supercedes any health care you will get from a national system. Voluntary surgeries can take up to a year to get done. Your paychecks will be considerably smaller.

Not to mention, the current medical economy in the United States accounts for 1/6 of the total economy. Think about that for a minute. You got it? 1/6 of the economy. Where is that money going to be put into the economy?

Where will the money go to fund social programs like welfare? Who's going to pay for the illegal immigrants that the Dems will allow into this country to suck up health care benefits? Your pocket, my pocket, and my kids' pockets.

Maybe you should be a bit more informed before you go thinking that the economy will be all rosy under the Dems.

I'd be interested in knowing who you work for. Are you a small business employee or owner? I hope not. The constant minimum wage increases will drive you under or force you into unemployment. Do you work for a manufacturer and are you part of a Union? I hope not. National health care will be extremely inferior to your current benefits package. Do you work at McDonalds? Good, Hillary and the Dems need your vote.


My first post here, so I'll be a bit brief:

To your note about health care, all I know is this: I'm 45, have been a sole proprietor for nearly 20 years, have not had any serious medical conditions (knock wood), and I just got hit with a 30% raise in my health insurance premiums, on top of a $2,500 deductible and the hope that if I have a claim it doesn't get fought by my health insurance company. If for the $300 per month I'm paying in premiums I can instead pay them in taxes and in exchange get a British or Canadian-style medical care system (both of which are nowhere near as bad as the right-wing hype machine will have you believe), I'm there so fast your head will spin. Hell, for that I'll pay $500 more a month in taxes since it will mean when I DO need the medical care it will be there without any bitching and I'll be able to keep my condo, none of which is guaranteed under this pathetic excuse of a health care system.

To your assertion that the economy is worse under Democrats, you're just flat-out wrong. The last recession was in 2001. The one before that was in 1991-1992. The one before that was 1987. Notice a pattern yet? Under Reagan-Bush-Bush the economy has been swinging into recessions with a fair amount of regularity. It didn't happen under Clinton, and we're more than likely about to get whacked in the mouth with a big recession in '08. Trickle-down and tax breaks for the uber-wealthy don't work, and that's pretty much the Republican tax plan now and in the foreseeable future. You can have it.

Me, I'm still bobbing between Edwards and Obama, but I am of the opinion that any Democrat -- yes, even freaky Kucinich (who at least has the hottest wife) -- will be better than every Republican running. I almost feel sorry for Republicans with the sad choices they have.

But I do wish Gore ran again. Maybe in '12 ...

(Oh, and one more thing: after seeing Karl Rove manipulate the people in '00 and '04, I think even Hillary has lessons to learn from that weasel.)


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Unread postby Dozen » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:26 pm

comish wrote:
Dozen wrote:
comish wrote:The world of politics is muddled to be sure!

I tell people all the time that their best bet when voting is to vote their career (If they have one).

For a public school teacher, the Republicans have been a disaster. NCLB (No Child Left Behind) is an un-funded joke that has every district scurrying around like the ship is on fire.

It is NOT the ONLY education related issue that has the NEA and OEA rallying against most Rep candidates.

I don't agree with EVERY stance the Dems have, but until the Reps change their attitude toward public schools, what reasonable choice do I have? And yes, I understand that a national health care system may me worse than what I have now



You mean like work? Being held accountable? But yet you still have time to post on messageboards.................. Usually inner city people and lazy ass's like democrats..................


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Unread postby FUDU » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:07 pm

To your note about health care, all I know is this: I'm 45, have been a sole proprietor for nearly 20 years, have not had any serious medical conditions (knock wood), and I just got hit with a 30% raise in my health insurance premiums, on top of a $2,500 deductible and the hope that if I have a claim it doesn't get fought by my health insurance company. If for the $300 per month I'm paying in premiums I can instead pay them in taxes and in exchange get a British or Canadian-style medical care system (both of which are nowhere near as bad as the right-wing hype machine will have you believe),


Just a quick first hand story on our current medical care in the U.S. and in a place like Canada, you know that apartment above the great party.

I have a bionic right thumb, seriously it might as well be. Couple of screws, pin and bone graft. Everything done through the Cleveland Clinic, one of, if not the most, respected and influential medical facilities on the planet Earth.

My injury occurred on a Thanksgiving day a few years ago playing football, tackle, yeah I know brilliant at age 31. I thought I jammed my thumb and continued to play for and hour and a half. Big mistake.

Later that day in the hospital the X ray shows it is pretty shattered.

My personal physician refers me to the top of the totem pole, Dr. Mark Hendrickson, a genius with upper extremities.

With in 3 days of injury I met him for a second opinion, with in 10 days from that consult I was in surgery. I was in a cast for a month, did rehab for another 2.

My thumb is worth $16,000 and I paid less than $2 grand for it. with in 100 days of the injury I was completely healed and rehabbed and physically could not tell I even got scratched.

So, being around the time of serious national health care debates heating up I did a little research on my injury. Found out to suffer my injury in Canada I would not have had a chance at getting a Dr. Hendrickson's expertise on the matter. I would have had to go to whomever was assigned or available. I would have waited 3 weeks for the initial consult and the surgery would have taken place sometime within the next 3 months (earliest 1 month). Rehab would have been bumped due to the wait and would have taken the same 2 months it did here but with fewer alloted visits depending on how busy they were. To top it off it would have cost me roughly 30% more through taxes that I would have payed if everything in my life remained the same.

So if anybody wants to take our health care for granted go right ahead, but for the most part it is second to none. Maybe if we stop allowing people to just stop on in unannounced and uninsured to have a baby for free we can start getting the cost aspects back to normal.
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Re: Here's the deal

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:08 pm

ProgRocker wrote:My first post here, so I'll be a bit brief:

To your note about health care, all I know is this: I'm 45, have been a sole proprietor for nearly 20 years, have not had any serious medical conditions (knock wood), and I just got hit with a 30% raise in my health insurance premiums, on top of a $2,500 deductible and the hope that if I have a claim it doesn't get fought by my health insurance company. If for the $300 per month I'm paying in premiums I can instead pay them in taxes and in exchange get a British or Canadian-style medical care system (both of which are nowhere near as bad as the right-wing hype machine will have you believe), I'm there so fast your head will spin. Hell, for that I'll pay $500 more a month in taxes since it will mean when I DO need the medical care it will be there without any bitching and I'll be able to keep my condo, none of which is guaranteed under this pathetic excuse of a health care system.


First, welcome aboard. I'm glad you had something valid to say instead of just being a squawk box.

I think the thing people don't realize about health care is that it is inevitably going to cost you more than any current medical care. You will be paying for everyone else's health coverage instead of yours and your immediate family's. When taxes, specifically income taxes, get raised, you will feel the burden of health care. As it currently stands, the Democrats will probably tax the hell out of the upper classes and force them to cover the burden of everyone else. That's just completely wrong. That's not a capitalist society. It's socialism.

Bringing up the poor by oppressing the middle and upper classes is incomprehensible.

What you're saying is that you are willing to pay more money per month for everyone else in the event that you need medical care? It would be different if you had a life-threatening condition. But a voluntary surgery, for example, getting wisdom teeth pulled, which can cause excruciating pain if not done, will take up to two years to get done. I don't understand why I should be paying for other people to have children or for someone's lung transplant because they've smoked for 35 years and have the lungs of a 95-year-old. To me, that's completely unfair.


If you don't mind my asking, are the health benefits part of your employment contract? Or are you paying into the system yourself?

To your assertion that the economy is worse under Democrats, you're just flat-out wrong. The last recession was in 2001. The one before that was in 1991-1992. The one before that was 1987. Notice a pattern yet? Under Reagan-Bush-Bush the economy has been swinging into recessions with a fair amount of regularity. It didn't happen under Clinton, and we're more than likely about to get whacked in the mouth with a big recession in '08. Trickle-down and tax breaks for the uber-wealthy don't work, and that's pretty much the Republican tax plan now and in the foreseeable future. You can have it.


I never asserted anything about the economy being worse under previous Democrats. I'm talking about the future. The national health care proposal will effectively eliminate 1/6 of the country's economy. The Republican tax plan now tries to keep the consumer culture as a staple of America.

You cannot fault the Republicans for these economic troubles. First of all, under Reagan, his system was designed to increase spending with the hopes that it would reconcile the troubles from the 70s when inflation ran rampant. Not to mention, increased defense spending because people like Bin Laden were creating criminal cells in Afghanistan as a result of their war with the Soviet Union. Plus, the Iraq-Iran War was putting the wrong people in power. It was a tumultuous time where necessary spending was done to fix the cracks in the American system.

Under Bush Sr., you can say what you want. I was young at the time, but I still would have been in favor of the Gulf War if I had been more informed. We were doing what we could to protect American interests in Kuwait and Qatar. It was necessary for the protection of our few allies in the Middle East, and especially our troops. The increased spending didn't help.

Clinton was just the lucky byproduct of a time of relative peace. He was able to reduce spending because he had nothing to spend on except for the obligatory liberal social programs.

George W. Bush didn't exactly get off to the best start economically. Within nine months of his inauguration, the country lost a huge portion of its economic sector with the Twin Towers. Understandably, increased national security spending was necessary. I don't see how you complain about spending that is ensuring your safety as an American.

Me, I'm still bobbing between Edwards and Obama, but I am of the opinion that any Democrat -- yes, even freaky Kucinich (who at least has the hottest wife) -- will be better than every Republican running. I almost feel sorry for Republicans with the sad choices they have.

But I do wish Gore ran again. Maybe in '12 ...

(Oh, and one more thing: after seeing Karl Rove manipulate the people in '00 and '04, I think even Hillary has lessons to learn from that weasel.)



For conversation purposes, what are your problems with the Republican candidates? I think the Democrats have too many ideological impossibilities to create an utopian society in America to have a chance. Unless of course they continue to manipulate the masses filling their heads with only the social ramifications of everything, not letting voters know that their plans will fuck the economy up hardcore.

Al Gore? Give me a break. His whacko bullshit global warning position would only gather the environmentalist vote. He could never win a popular majority.
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Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:10 pm

FUDU wrote:So if anybody wants to take our health care for granted go right ahead, but for the most part it is second to none. Maybe if we stop allowing people to just stop on in unannounced and uninsured to have a baby for free we can start getting the cost aspects back to normal.


+1. Thanks for sharing that FUDU. Glad to hear your thumb is back to normal.

This is exactly what will become more frequent under health care. Except, they'll have national health care and this generation and future generations will pay heavily for it.
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Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:42 pm

This topic has been way better than I thought it would be I love the Diversity on this board. I have always conisdered myself a firebrand when it comes to politics.

That said, I'm very conservative on most everything but abortion.


Really? Thats rare for conservatives and a serious "hot button" issue. Have you had other conservatives challenge your stance? I have stone Republican friends and its a issue we try to avoid because of the argument that insues. I try not fit in any specific political group Im a gun owner, Im pro-immigration, Im anti-war, and sometimes on the weekends I like to smoke alittle pot (im not one of these dorky little "420" freaks running around its just another way of relaxing while watching sports and playing cards).

As for healthcare im pro-socializing it as long as the option to have private healthcare is still there. I believe that even a homeless crackhead should be able to go to the doctor if they need to. I just wont be able to stand a Giuliani presidency his own firefighters and police wouldnt even endorse him because of his catastrophic failures before, during and after 9/11 he is worst cannidate in a field of morons.
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Unread postby ProgRocker » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:03 am

Thanks, Tripods. I hope we'll have a more sane discussion than the previous board I was spending time on at TheOBR. That's full of mindless neocons cut-and-pasting what they see on boards like Michelle Malkin, and they have this ridiculous obsession with a long-ago poster everyone thinks is me whenever they can't respond to my posts - which is all the time. So here's to actual debate and not just dopey smack-tossing.

Now, to your notes on the board here ...

On National Health Insurance: I would say ... yes. Exactly. The whole idea of insurance is spreading the risk, and the wider and deeper the pool the more evenly distributed that risk is -- and that, in turn, will actually reduce costs overall. Remember, there actually IS a national health care policy in place where everyone can and must by law be treated. It's called "the emergency room." The problem is, that's also far and away the most expensive care you or anyone else can get, and by law if someone walks in with a problem, the doctors absolutely have to treat and stabilize the problem. That's also a horribly inefficient way to get treatment to those who need it.

The problems with private health care, as far as I can see, are twofold: (1) employers no longer provide that benefit to everyone (notice that the auto companies just ditched health care, fobbing it off to the UAW -- a horrible idea, and I am a VP of a local myself); and (2) private health insurance now acts in such a way that they do everything they can NOT to provide care, which is antithetical to the very idea of insurance (not to mention the Hippocratic code) but not to the notion that they have to make a profit over providing care.

To me, the health care industry has had 60 years (going back to Truman, who first proposed the idea of universal health care) and have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they can't and won't do the job of providing care, because their first job is to make money. That's a failure, to me. And I think we have to start coming to terms with the idea that certain parts of this economy and culture simply don't work on the basis of "free market is best for all." It isn't, and health insurance is one of those areas.

(And no, I don't work under any kind of plan from my union or my employ. It's all out of my own pocket and has been.)

Now, if you can convince me there's a model out there that will provide health care for everyone and is still in a profit/free market model, be my guest. But right now, I'm skeptical to the point of cynicism on that one.

On the economy: if we put a man on the moon, we can create a health care system that's economically viable. Hell, most Western European and Asian countries have, and they're running economic laps around us even with those single-payer government-run plans. It can work if it's done right and if there's enough supervision and people holding feet to the fire -- and health care is just the kind of program that would make everyone pay attention and call their representatives when DC screws up, something that's been missing for a long time in this country and desperately needs to be revived.

On Republican/Democrat economic planning: I won't deny Clinton was lucky, but I also won't concede 9/11 to Bush since he followed that up with Iraq, which in my opinion is a disaster of such magnitude and on so many levels including economic that it's going to take at least 10 years just to unravel all the damage it's done.

On Gore: we will definitely agree to disagree there. Sorry, but I think anyone who doesn't believe in global warming is simply in denial, and I've followed his speeches and writings since 2000 and get more and more impressed every day. I think he would have been (and still may be) one of the greatest Presidents ever, and I think if you're a Republican you should count your blessings that he didn't run this year. The guy would give Led Zeppelin a run for their money.

On my problems with Republicans: I just think right now most Republicans have supported Bush and his policies in such lockstep it will forever taint the way I look at them. Say what you will about Democrats -- I know I do -- but one thing we don't do is march in lockstep with each other. That very, very few Republicans even tried to question, much less stop, some of what I see as Bush's more destructive policies (outing Valerie Plame, lying about Saddam, approving wiretapping and torture, Katrina) makes me suspicious of anyone who was around. Give me a truly independent Republican and maybe, but I don't see any.

Damn this was long. I better stop.
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Unread postby ProgRocker » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:06 am

FUDU wrote:
To your note about health care, all I know is this: I'm 45, have been a sole proprietor for nearly 20 years, have not had any serious medical conditions (knock wood), and I just got hit with a 30% raise in my health insurance premiums, on top of a $2,500 deductible and the hope that if I have a claim it doesn't get fought by my health insurance company. If for the $300 per month I'm paying in premiums I can instead pay them in taxes and in exchange get a British or Canadian-style medical care system (both of which are nowhere near as bad as the right-wing hype machine will have you believe),


Just a quick first hand story on our current medical care in the U.S. and in a place like Canada, you know that apartment above the great party.

I have a bionic right thumb, seriously it might as well be. Couple of screws, pin and bone graft. Everything done through the Cleveland Clinic, one of, if not the most, respected and influential medical facilities on the planet Earth.

My injury occurred on a Thanksgiving day a few years ago playing football, tackle, yeah I know brilliant at age 31. I thought I jammed my thumb and continued to play for and hour and a half. Big mistake.

Later that day in the hospital the X ray shows it is pretty shattered.

My personal physician refers me to the top of the totem pole, Dr. Mark Hendrickson, a genius with upper extremities.

With in 3 days of injury I met him for a second opinion, with in 10 days from that consult I was in surgery. I was in a cast for a month, did rehab for another 2.

My thumb is worth $16,000 and I paid less than $2 grand for it. with in 100 days of the injury I was completely healed and rehabbed and physically could not tell I even got scratched.

So, being around the time of serious national health care debates heating up I did a little research on my injury. Found out to suffer my injury in Canada I would not have had a chance at getting a Dr. Hendrickson's expertise on the matter. I would have had to go to whomever was assigned or available. I would have waited 3 weeks for the initial consult and the surgery would have taken place sometime within the next 3 months (earliest 1 month). Rehab would have been bumped due to the wait and would have taken the same 2 months it did here but with fewer alloted visits depending on how busy they were. To top it off it would have cost me roughly 30% more through taxes that I would have payed if everything in my life remained the same.

So if anybody wants to take our health care for granted go right ahead, but for the most part it is second to none. Maybe if we stop allowing people to just stop on in unannounced and uninsured to have a baby for free we can start getting the cost aspects back to normal.


You're talking quality. I'm talking access. Huge difference, and I would say we wouldn't have the access problems they do in Canada because, at least in the cities, we have excess capacity of quality care.

You also seem to have solid health insurance. Most people I know don't. That has to change so we all have the success you had in your rehab.

I'm an optimist. I say it can be done in a balanced way if we put our minds together to figure it out. But we have to make that leap, and these days that ain't easy.
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Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:33 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Really? Thats rare for conservatives and a serious "hot button" issue. Have you had other conservatives challenge your stance? I have stone Republican friends and its a issue we try to avoid because of the argument that insues. I try not fit in any specific political group Im a gun owner, Im pro-immigration, Im anti-war, and sometimes on the weekends I like to smoke alittle pot (im not one of these dorky little "420" freaks running around its just another way of relaxing while watching sports and playing cards).


On abortion, it rarely gets brought up. I think the fact that I am so conservative on other issues like national defense, drastic revision of the welfare system and other social issues, and the economy kind of helps me to overlook the abortion thing. I'm also an agnostic, a very rare thing to see in conservatives.

How can you be pro-immigration? I understand the argument that those people are taking jobs that Americans don't want, but they're also taking American taxpayer money to have their children go to school, to have their medical bills taken care of as illegals. They break all of our laws, while we have no jurisdiction over them. I'm all for LEGAL immigration, but no one takes that step anymore.

All they really do is further polarize the class divide and then become recipients of government handouts. I don't want to pay for some illegal alien to have her kids here. That's bullshit. It's not my position to do that, and it certainly shouldn't be my country's.

As for healthcare im pro-socializing it as long as the option to have private healthcare is still there. I believe that even a homeless crackhead should be able to go to the doctor if they need to. I just wont be able to stand a Giuliani presidency his own firefighters and police wouldnt even endorse him because of his catastrophic failures before, during and after 9/11 he is worst cannidate in a field of morons.


People fail to realize a lot about health care. I would still be completely anti-socializing of health care, even with the private option. If a person is homeless due to cocaine use, why should I have to pay for what he has done with his own life? If he didn't care for himself then, it isn't my responsibility to bear his burden because now he can see a doctor for free.

Once again, everyone who has used derogatory language to describe the Republican candidates has had no base for doing so. No one has complained about their policy issues. It just makes you sound ignorant and uninformed. As if you hate Republicans solely because of the Bush Presidency.
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Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:10 pm

ProgRocker wrote:Thanks, Tripods. I hope we'll have a more sane discussion than the previous board I was spending time on at TheOBR. That's full of mindless neocons cut-and-pasting what they see on boards like Michelle Malkin, and they have this ridiculous obsession with a long-ago poster everyone thinks is me whenever they can't respond to my posts - which is all the time. So here's to actual debate and not just dopey smack-tossing.


Absolutely. I enjoy a good discussion.


On National Health Insurance: I would say ... yes. Exactly. The whole idea of insurance is spreading the risk, and the wider and deeper the pool the more evenly distributed that risk is -- and that, in turn, will actually reduce costs overall. Remember, there actually IS a national health care policy in place where everyone can and must by law be treated. It's called "the emergency room." The problem is, that's also far and away the most expensive care you or anyone else can get, and by law if someone walks in with a problem, the doctors absolutely have to treat and stabilize the problem. That's also a horribly inefficient way to get treatment to those who need it.


Those who need treatment can still go to non-profit clinics. Those do still exist through the donations of generous Americans. The quality of care at that point is not my concern. If you want the best care, then pay into the system. If you can't, then find a way to do so. My mother works at a daycare and far too often, she sees poor parents sending their children to school on vouchers, while the mother/father drive a nice car, have nice clothes, and the mother has new nails every week. It's about prioritizing your own personal life.

If having health care doesn't fall into your priorities, but name brand clothes do, then it isn't my problem. I don't understand why I have to take further risks in my health coverage. As it stands now, because I am a college student, I'm still covered by my father's benefits package through his employer. As a union member, he gets a very good insurance package. He's a pro-Hillary voter. I'm trying to explain to him that his current health package is far and away superior to one he would get under a national system. And that's the truth.

The fact is that a national health care system would knock out 1/6 of the economy from the medical sector. I ask again, since it has not been answered, where will that money come from to be put back into the economy? Where will the money come from for national health care? My pocket. Your pocket. Instead of paying for everyone else's, if you're going to have to pay for insurance, why not just do it privately now?

The problems with private health care, as far as I can see, are twofold: (1) employers no longer provide that benefit to everyone (notice that the auto companies just ditched health care, fobbing it off to the UAW -- a horrible idea, and I am a VP of a local myself); and (2) private health insurance now acts in such a way that they do everything they can NOT to provide care, which is antithetical to the very idea of insurance (not to mention the Hippocratic code) but not to the notion that they have to make a profit over providing care.


Private health care is still a business. The chief operating principle of a business is to make money. I'd still take my chances with an insurance company that may or may not pay for my voluntary surgery than do a socialized system where it make take many years for me to get a procedure done.

I still fail to see the benefits in paying for some poverty-stricken mother of seven with six different fathers to take her children to the doctor. That is not my burden. It is hers. I don't understand why other people's mistakes and shortcomings is my burden. That's because it shouldn't be my burden and anybody with any standard of living should understand that.

To me, the health care industry has had 60 years (going back to Truman, who first proposed the idea of universal health care) and have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they can't and won't do the job of providing care, because their first job is to make money. That's a failure, to me. And I think we have to start coming to terms with the idea that certain parts of this economy and culture simply don't work on the basis of "free market is best for all." It isn't, and health insurance is one of those areas.


Historians often put Truman towards the bottom of the list when they rank Presidents.

Can I ask a question to you? Well, I just did, but I'll ask another. Why do you feel that it is your responsibility to pay for health care for those who don't need it and can't afford it?

My answer, I don't think I do because it should not be my burden. It is far from my responsibility to spoon-feed people who are already being spoon-fed by the government through vouchers to send their children to school, welfare, food stamps, etc. All it is going to do is encourage more laziness among these people. Having national health care does exactly what these people don't need. It will continue to make them lethargic about finding employment and creating their own advancement in the world. It will just be another government handout to people who don't work for it. And that includes illegals, which would be my biggest issue.

(And no, I don't work under any kind of plan from my union or my employ. It's all out of my own pocket and has been.)


I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but that's the union's fault and shouldn't force you to support socialized health care. Either way, socialized health care won't benefit people like you. I'll assume you are middle class since you are a UAW member, and therefore have a pretty good job. Socialized health care has no benefit for you. It benefits those who continue to do nothing and receive government assistance. As for you, yes you are paying into the system (which would continue regardless), but at least you get the care you need when you need it. That's a fundamental difference in the systems. Socialized health care means that your care might not be available when you need it. I think I'd rather pay for it and get what I need done when I need it.

Quality > quantity.

Now, if you can convince me there's a model out there that will provide health care for everyone and is still in a profit/free market model, be my guest. But right now, I'm skeptical to the point of cynicism on that one.


Health care is not an inherent right. It is a privilege. Those who have money and work for a living get in. Those who lay around all day or work menial jobs because they can't handle real labor don't deserve it.

It has to be a profit-making system as an example of checks and balances. Look, under socialized health care, you will be paying for other people's abortions, if they became legalized. You will be paying for someone's AIDS treatment due to unprotected sex. You will be paying for the cancer treatment of a chain smoker. What about that is appetizing to people in favor of socializing health care?

Once again, it shouldn't be the American people's responsibility to bear the burden of people who have made stupid choices with their personal life.

On the economy: if we put a man on the moon, we can create a health care system that's economically viable. Hell, most Western European and Asian countries have, and they're running economic laps around us even with those single-payer government-run plans. It can work if it's done right and if there's enough supervision and people holding feet to the fire -- and health care is just the kind of program that would make everyone pay attention and call their representatives when DC screws up, something that's been missing for a long time in this country and desperately needs to be revived.


Oh come on. You mean to tell me that those countries have it better than the United States? That's absurd. Socialized health care will create more problems than it will do good. First of all, everyone hates higher taxes. Well, guess what funds health care. Second, we also have a much larger population of poverty-stricken lower classes. Those countries certainly have less of those, because the cost of living isn't as high. There will be millions upon millions of abuses of the system. Some drunk homeless guy will go to the hospital saying he is sick and get a free night's sleep. There's no rhyme or reason as to why he should get a free night in a hospital when there are multiple homeless shelters in every major city.


On Republican/Democrat economic planning: I won't deny Clinton was lucky, but I also won't concede 9/11 to Bush since he followed that up with Iraq, which in my opinion is a disaster of such magnitude and on so many levels including economic that it's going to take at least 10 years just to unravel all the damage it's done.


What makes Iraq a disaster? Don't make a point without elaborating. Iraq, at its core, is a success. Hussein is out of power, there is growing stability every day in the region with its government and growth toward democracy.

Wars cost money. I guess it takes a realist, instead of an idealist, to understand that. I still think it was a necessary war. It was a start and a reason to have our presence strengthened in the Middle East. Regardless of if Iraq was the country to go after or not, Hussein was extremely deceptive to inspectors. A story just came out in the Wall Street Journal the other day that said that Iran hid their nuclear program from inspectors by moving it underground. Who's to say Hussein didn't do this? He's got many allies (cough Syria cough) who would love to be of assistance for some economic gain. Hussein has the resources to be helped by other rogue nations.

On Gore: we will definitely agree to disagree there. Sorry, but I think anyone who doesn't believe in global warming is simply in denial, and I've followed his speeches and writings since 2000 and get more and more impressed every day. I think he would have been (and still may be) one of the greatest Presidents ever, and I think if you're a Republican you should count your blessings that he didn't run this year. The guy would give Led Zeppelin a run for their money.


The same Al Gore who invented the internet? He's a farce. He just wanted to save himself from going into obscurity so he figured he would take the global warming position because it hasn't been taken yet.

The planet has gone through far worse than what we're putting it through. Ice ages, movement of tectonic plates, so on and so forth. Some greenhouse gases are not the biggest problem facing the world. And even so, Al Gore is informed on global warming. Big deal. Maybe if he wanted to talk about something relevant to the betterment of this COUNTRY, then maybe I would listen to him. But telling me that "The planet has a fever" isn't exactly my idea of someone who should hold the highest office in the world.

On my problems with Republicans: I just think right now most Republicans have supported Bush and his policies in such lockstep it will forever taint the way I look at them. Say what you will about Democrats -- I know I do -- but one thing we don't do is march in lockstep with each other. That very, very few Republicans even tried to question, much less stop, some of what I see as Bush's more destructive policies (outing Valerie Plame, lying about Saddam, approving wiretapping and torture, Katrina) makes me suspicious of anyone who was around. Give me a truly independent Republican and maybe, but I don't see any.


Wait, are you trying to tell me that Democrats aren't mindless drones and Republicans are? While I will give you that Democrats are extremely idealistic and have no shred of reality in many of their proposals, this election alone shows the differences between the candidates.

Bush did not lie about Saddam Hussein. All he can do is go on the information that his advisors give him. These people are specifically hand-picked for this kind of work for a reason. So he didn't have WMD in missile or bomb form. He had large quantities of saran gas. What about the empty missile silos? You are unbelievably naive if you think that Hussein has never possessed WMDs. A man of his caliber certainly has large amounts of potential to have those sorts of resources.

Wiretapping, I touched on in an earlier post. I'll sacrifice some of my civil liberties if it means that I'm going to be kept safe.

Torture, these people are KNOWN CRIMINALS AND TERRORISTS. Why should they deserve any sort of humane treatment if their sole purpose in life is to inflict pain on other people? If we need to know something, I would instantly do whatever it took to get the information I needed.

You're blaming Katrina on George W. Bush and the Republicans? Wow. You might have lost all credibility with that. First of all, it is a state issue, not a federal issue. The federal government did what they deemed necessary in terms of providing aid. Ray Nagin and his excuse for a city government completely misappropriated everything. Let's be realistic for a minute. The idiots of New Orleans have re-elected Ray Nagin. Ray Nagin did absolutely nothing beneficial for the city. He got re-elected because he called out Bush and the morons supported him. I think that says something to me about, not only the people, but also the leadership that was in place.

If I had a week to get out of a city that was built below sea level as a category 4 hurricane approached, I'd be gone immediately. Throw some shit in a bag, get in the car and get the hell out of there. But no. I've had to listen for two years to sob stories about people who were too damn stupid to leave an area that was undoubtedly going to be ravaged by a monster storm. Not only that, but the levees that broke were under city and state control, not federal.

Once again, another fine example of the government should not be held responsible for the stupidity of others. Katrina was mismanaged from the start by the states. It's only a matter of time before the people of New Orleans demand reparations, since that is the norm anymore.
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Unread postby MadDawgJimmyMac » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:10 pm

I don't mean to sound like an asshole

Having national health care does exactly what these people don't need. It will continue to make them lethargic about finding employment and creating their own advancement in the world. It will just be another government handout to people who don't work for it.

Health care is not an inherent right. It is a privilege. Those who have money and work for a living get in. Those who lay around all day or work menial jobs because they can't handle real labor don't deserve it.

Once again, it shouldn't be the American people's responsibility to bear the burden of people who have made stupid choices with their personal life.

Those who need treatment can still go to non-profit clinics. Those do still exist through the donations of generous Americans.

I think I'd rather pay for it and get what I need done when I need it.

As it stands now, because I am a college student, I'm still covered by my father's benefits package through his employer.


WOW!!!

Where to begin? Maybe by telling a little story about my family. Let me start by explaining that I am a former health care executive (was a CFO at large hospital) who is now self employed. My x wife is a highly qualified school teacher making very big bucks. Needless to say, our combined income is well into the 6 figure level. We are not poor, lazy people sucking on the government tit. Onward.

Quite a few years ago, it was discovered that my youngest daughter (16 at the time and in high school) has an incurable kidney disease. Her only option for continued life was to receive a kidney transplant with high odds that the disease would reoccur and eventually take out the new kidney. Still there was a chance that the reoccurrence would not happen but in the majority of cases it does. The kid has the same disease as Alonzo Mourning of the Miami Heat. Sam Cassell, formally an NBA player and a former Browns player named Jones (not Turkey). All 3 have has transplants with only Cassell experiencing a reoccurrence.

Prior to kidney transplant surgery at the Cleveland Clinic, my daughter was run through a number of experiential treatment programs as well as being exposed to various experimental drugs. Very little is known about her very rare disease so a lot of cutting edge treatments are being conducted, many of which insurance carriers do not endorse. These programs did delay the inevitable but after several years of trying, the Clinic finally threw in the towel and a transplant was performed. That was 5 years ago and currently, the disease has returned and we are currently seeking a non-related donor for her 2nd transplant. But that’s not why I called.

As I stated earlier, much like our little friend I quoted above, when this whole experience began, we had possibly the finest health care insurance people can have. Top of the line with low deductible and what we thought were ample stop loss clauses. Well what a surprise we were in store for. Little did we know that many of the treatments utilized to save her life, many of the drugs she needed to take to continue living, were NOT covered by those policies. Furthermore, we didn’t think about how long the treatment process would run and the implications we would be exposed to once my daughter became of age and was not attending college. Given that insurance coverage would continue for our child until the age of 23 only if she was still attending school (college), we were not overly concerned waaaaay back then and felt we had ample resources to get us through the hardships. Man were we in for a rude awakening.

To make a long story short, my daughter had her 1st transplant at the age of 22 and is still living. She is now 28. As I mentioned earlier, she is in need of another transplant but this time from an unrelated donor. The health care professionals now think there may be a genetic disposition to the disease and that maybe with an unrelated donor, it will not return this time (her 1st transplant came from a family member). We have been through 12 long years of very expensive, aggressive treatments but hey, the kid lives. Our problem became much more critical when she reached the age of 23 and graduated from college. Upon that point, she no longer qualified for coverage under either of our insurance policies and no, I repeat no insurance carrier would insure her because of a preexisting condition. After much thought and consumption of pride, we were able to get her qualified for Medicare Disability including Medicaid Insurance coverage. We are now sucking the government tit to keep our daughter alive.

I will point out that prior to her receiving government assistance, we spent our lifetime savings to keep our daughter alive. Who wouldn’t? And the health care institutions will spare no dime making sure they squeeze any dollar out of you they can. And for her to qualify for that government assistance, she could no longer live with either of us nor could we be providing any type of traceable support. Needless to say, she was unable to work for a few years following the transplant and now does home dialysis 8 to 10 hours per day. She most recently (4 weeks ago), was given permission by her doctors to work no more than 4 hours a day in a nonphysical nonstressful job (she must be seated and in a controlled environment). I talked to her last night and she is sooooo excited as she finally found a job meeting those requirements. It is a temporary position and will most likely go away after the holidays but at least for a while, she is delighted to be contributing to her own livelihood. Being on the government tit bothers her and both of us (mom and dad) as we have a ton of family pride and as a rule, take care of our own.

So this is why I called. The quotes above are soooo callous, so presumptuous, soooooo self serving it is beyond reason and I could almost guarantee, comes from a very spoiled child who attends church on a regular basis. I could be an asshole and wish what happened to my daughter and our family upon you and yours but we are not that kind of people (even with my current blood temperature). We actually care and have compassion for others as both mom and dad were taught that growing up and have passed that on to our children. So many people assume as you do, that those needing or securing assistance are lazy or just want a free pass without ever thinking through all the nasty things that can happen to people who have spent their lives contributing to this society and the government that protects you. Sad thing is that in my experiences, the vast majority of our youth fall into this category. They think of no one but themselves and to hell with those who for whatever reason cannot provide for their own. And they think as such while enjoying the free ride from mom, dad and society.

For those of you who think “generous citizens” or “charitable organizations” will step in to fill the breach, wake up cause that ain’t gonna happen. And while you spew your spoiled poison, maybe you should think about the day where your life depends on receiving health care and other assistance. And maybe your dad needs to make you pay for your own insurance coverage so you get an idea of what is like to be a responsible citizen versus a college student living in a protected dream world.
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MDJM Rules

Unread postby PitbullTerrier » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:13 pm

The above reply by MDJimmy Mac is the reason I am staying true to Democrats.

I love the people who comprise this party and who follow this party. So much better than the alternative of being lied to while you're being fucked in the ass.

Vote for Hillary and let the healing and prosperity begin.

God Loves MDJM

Good to be on here with you, brother. Actually, I am honored to be on here with you. We need more good people over here, and I won't stop until I get everyone.

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Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:28 pm

Keep your former Scout people over there. All they have portrayed themselves to be around here are pompous and arrogant.

Don't ever call me your "little friend". You have just splattered arrogance all over your post with comments like that.

You are an exception because you have shown a big difference. Cancer and incurable diseases are huge differences.

By the way, asshole, I am by no means spoiled, I don't attend church, and nothing I have said is presumptuous. Just because you are the exception doesn't mean that what I have isn't applicable to a vast majority of people who don't have health care and who want socialism in the United States.

Oh, and if you want something else, you cannot claim independency on the FAFSA unless you were born before 1984, unless you are a runaway, have been beaten, or are completely excommunicated from your parents. Maybe you should know that before throwing assertions around about my "being spoiled".

You know what, you don't know anything of my family history either and I don't need to qualify myself to you. If you were trying to make a point, I couldn't see through the arrogance.

I'm glad you decided to stop in though. Good luck to your daughter. As for you personally, I hope you continue going through life being spiteful towards people who have a different ideology than yours.

Don't make it personal between you and I when it is a policy discussion. I have nothing to do with what has happened in your life and don't place the blame on me because I don't want a socialized health care system in the country.
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Wow

Unread postby PitbullTerrier » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:32 pm

Brother man Tripod, I know MDJM:

He was just trying to show where he was coming from. Lighten the fuck up, Francis Sawyer.

As far as being arrogant and pompous, so what? It's a Rant board. Have fun and don't let it get you so riled up. MDJM and I have been friends for years, and there isn't a mean bone in the guys body. Don't attack the guy because you don't like his message.

Attack him because hate feels so good! Plus, I love being arrogant and abusive. It makes all others around me feel... good.

Always worked for me.

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Re: Wow

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:36 pm

PitbullTerrier wrote:Brother man Tripod, I know MDJM:

He was just trying to show where he was coming from. Lighten the fuck up, Francis Sawyer.

As far as being arrogant and pompous, so what? It's a Rant board. Have fun and don't let it get you so riled up. MDJM and I have been friends for years, and there isn't a mean bone in the guys body. Don't attack the guy because you don't like his message.

Attack him because hate feels so good! Plus, I love being arrogant and abusive. It makes all others around me feel... good.

Always worked for me.

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I don't want to hear it. Don't talk down to somebody if you know absolutely nothing about them, especially in what was a civilized discussion.

I have no problem with his message. His daughter is sick with an incurable illness. I know what the health care system is like. I lost a sister to cancer in 2004. I wish his daughter well.

My point is that it is an exception and shouldn't really have been compared with the points I was making.

As for you, your post about people and things you hate was deplorable. The sports ones, sure, as this is a sports message board. Otherwise, you're just an angry human being. I haven't seen anything of valuable substance from any of the new Scout posters and I don't expect to.
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:38 pm

Skating Tripods wrote:Keep your former Scout people over there. All they have portrayed themselves to be around here are pompous and arrogant.


Interesting idea. You and the twenty people left on these boards would really have a fun time...

Dude you seriously need to start smoking pot or something. You run around these forums with six broom sticks stuck up your ass at all times.

A fucking mess is what you are.

Geesh, isn't winter break here yet. That dial-up at home will chill you out.
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Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:42 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Interesting idea. You and the twenty people left on these boards would really have a fun time...

Dude you seriously need to start smoking pot or something. You run around these forums with six broom sticks stuck up your ass at all times.

A fucking mess is what you are.

Geesh, isn't winter break here yet. That dial-up at home will chill you out.


Thanks for chiming in. It was really helpful.

And I don't smoke at all. Thanks, though. As much as I want to take years off my life, I'll leave that to idiots.
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