Occupy Wall Street

[Cerebral_DownTime]

The Police were stupid.I'm sure it was really necessary to pepper spray protestors sitting on the ground. What are their ideas for fixing the tuition scam?

They want to close a property tax loophole that has cost the state buku bucks in revenue. ... and a mild tax increase on the wealthiest residents of California. The state is going to cut another $200 million from the budget for higher education next year.

and sorry about the balls and spine comment. It was early and i was obviously in a bad mood.

[Ziner]

I don't care about the spine and balls comment. You know me better than that by now.

I was just reading about the prop 13 they are referring and can't help but think it was a stupid law to start with, misguided intentions it appears. However I can't help but wonder how many companies stayed in California, when there are far better places to run a business, because of this law.

And I won't start down the higher education budgets the entire thing is fucked up from getting people who shouldnt to go to college and then when they do go let them major in useless degrees. But then they want to bitch about their 150K in student loans. It makes my head hurt too much.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Every American should have the opportunity to go to college, and no i'm not saying it should be free. But you have a situation in which people are leaving college with enormous debt that will take decades to pay off. I have a useless degree, but I majored in something that interested me. Had I majored in history, which is my favorite subject and a true passion, i'd still be in the same boat. I consider myself lucky I have a good job that I don't hate. I don't sum up my educational experience with just the degree I have.

Would I advise my son or daughter to get a degree in Ancient Languages of Asia? No, but I would want them to learn about something they're passionate about.

I didn't go to school to become an accountant..... because I had no desire to be one.

[Ziner]

The opportunity, yes. But the debt they incur is on them. College should be an educated business decision for yourself and your future. I have a crap load of debt, but I knew that going in. It will take me decades to pay off, but I also majored in something that wasn't my true passion, but something I knew I could make a good living. While college is a blast and a nice time to be a drunk, it is ultimately a place where you need to make yourself marketable to employers. You want to major in the History of turds, dont bitch to me because you can't find a job anywhere but Starbucks. If someone has a true passion they want to study minor in it, there are plenty of spots for pointless electives, use those for your passion.

Many of the things I have read, vocational school provides a much better bang for the buck, but yet very few people pimp those because of this societal grandeur we put on college.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

So you see no problem with tuition going from 5K to 20+K in 12 years? Eventually you're going to price people out of education.

[Ziner]

So you see no problem with tuition going from 5K to 20+K in 12 years? Eventually you're going to price people out of education.

Yeah of course I do, even if you raise the property taxes of the businesses in California that isn't going to fix the root cause. I think tuition at colleges is out of control. My ways to fix it.

1. Cut out the shit, why are their so many dumb requirements for a degree. I had to take a Science, I took Geology after already taking Physics and Chemistry (for a different degree) but those didn't count. So I took geology to complete a Finance degree. Really, anyone here have a degree they couldn't have finished in 3 years?

2. University mandated major review and financial review every year. People need to be talked to sensibly about their decisions and how their choice of major will affect their earning power and student loans payments

3. Get rid of the fixed student loan rates. Do you realize that people who have consolidated student loans since 2006 have paid a flat 6.9%? This is not me BTW so I am not bitching for myself. Does anyone realize how absurd a 6.9% interest rate in this rate environment is? Especially when there is pretty much no way on god's green earth short of dying that you won't eventually have to repay them?

So here it is, get these degrees down to 3 years, really explain to people how much their decisions will cost and then let them pay a fair rate on their student loans. That'd go a hell of a lot farther than telling strapped businesses that their property taxes are going to sky rocket...oh yeah, hire are grads too ok?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

They're not targeting the guy who runs a chain of ice cream shops. The increase tax would only apply to the very wealthiest..... you know all them rich Hollywood liberals and such. Not exactly strapped business men ( characterization I find hilarious). The loophole they wish to close applies to the same people, since the loopholes being exploited are costing the state large chunks of revenue I see no problem with it. You close it and the rich are still going to be rich as hell, they're not going to be panhandling the next week.

Oh and before I forget, any opinions on SOPA and PIPA?

[Ziner]

I can't find anywhere that it is only targeting the wealthiest or major corporations, it seems like an across the board change. Even if it is the wealthiest or major corporations there are three major problems. 1. How does this encouraging hiring in anyway and in fact how does it not discourage hiring. Argue it as you may but higher taxes are not going to produce jobs. 2. Why does a corporation that was only in California for that purpose stay? Might not happen over night but discouraging investment in your state isnt a winning move, Cali is already not very business friendly. 3. Say California gets all the money they need to make their universities the best in the country and plug their deficit, how does this stop the skyrocketing growth of universities and their cost? It isnt all going towards grants, loans maybe but then that just perpetuates the debt problem.

In the end though it is California, the law was/is stupid they can do as they please. However from what I saw 60% of the people in California are against it. 60% of the people in California aren't conservatives. California liberals can decide what is the best way to fix their failed liberal policy. I did read an interesting article comparing it to Social Security and how it is structured in a way that to ever get rid of it a ton of people would have to vote against their own best financial interest.

[Ziner]

Oh and I havent kept up on SOPA, what is PIPA?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Taxes were higher under Clinton and we created 23 million jobs. And it's fairly obvious to anyone who hasn't been living under a rock that cutting taxes has done NOTHING but increase the widening gap between the rich and middle class..... the latter is becoming an endangered species. Companies aren't creating jobs with tax cuts, they're just pocketing the money. I'm not asking for the moon, it's not like I want 75% of their money. American workers being forced to compete with foreigners in Gushahwahwrrarawaa India and Wushinglingdingdong China for our own fucking jobs is another practice that needs to be killed. I would also demolish this "Tax Holiday" bullshit. I would make hiding money overseas to avoid paying the taxes so expensive for multinational corporations that it would be cheaper to just pay the damn CTR and be done with it.

I do not have a solution for everything, but I know the lost tax revenue isn't making the situation any better.

Oh and I havent kept up on SOPA, what is PIPA?

Protect IP Act or Preventing Real Online Threats to Economic Creativity and Theft of Intellectual Property Act . From what I can discern from the legal jargon, it's SOPA applied to foreign websites. Essentially blocking us from accessing them if the government decides it shall be. Technically this site could even be affected if SOPA is passed. If someone posts a picture or video and the Admins didn't apply "due diligence" to remove it in a timely fashion (all of this is subject to extremely vague definitions), the site could possibly be shutdown and the owners charged with a crime. And anyone doing business with this site would be blocked from doing so if a judge decrees it so. Sites like Flickr, Tumblr, and Reddit would be gone. Fair Use would be a thing of the past.

It's censorship, the American version of The Great Firewall Of China.

[HoodooMan]

And I won't start down the higher education budgets the entire thing is fucked up from getting people who shouldnt to go to college and then when they do go let them major in useless degrees.

Ideally, we'd all be accountants.

[Ziner]

Taxes were higher under Clinton and we created 23 million jobs. And it's fairly obvious to anyone who hasn't been living under a rock that cutting taxes has done NOTHING but increase the widening gap between the rich and middle class..... the latter is becoming an endangered species. Companies aren't creating jobs with tax cuts, they're just pocketing the money. I'm not asking for the moon, it's not like I want 75% of their money. American workers being forced to compete with foreigners in Gushahwahwrrarawaa India and Wushinglingdingdong China for our own fucking jobs is another practice that needs to be killed. I would also demolish this "Tax Holiday" bullshit. I would make hiding money overseas to avoid paying the taxes so expensive for multinational corporations that it would be cheaper to just pay the damn CTR and be done with it.

I do not have a solution for everything, but I know the lost tax revenue isn't making the situation any better.

I will look more in to the SOPA and PIPA later today.

I am not advocating cutting taxes, I would broaden the base and lower the rates and get the garbage out (especially the corporate taxes, that is how Bubba's Bait shop pays 36% and GE pays nothing), all I am saying is raising the taxes are not going to encourage any type of job creation and would likely dampen it. Not saying cut, just saying raising is bad.

Additionally, pinpointing widening gap and all that stuff is far too complicated to distill down to taxes and especially 3.6% for the rich. I am too the point where I am in favor of the damn tax because then perhaps it can be taken off the table as a pointless, insignificant talking point by liberals. Honestly 3.6% on some of the highest earners is so insignificant it isn't funny. I don't have time to find the proof but I am pretty sure I have read somewhere that taxing the rich at 100% and completely eliminating the entire military still wouldn't get rid of the deficit. Taxing the rich is nothing but rhetoric distracting from the bigger issue.

Can we also stop talking about the widening gap of wealth between the top and bottom. It is really dishonest (not even pointing at you, but liberal commentators). Look at this, what do you notice, wealth increasing with housing but debt increasing more than anything. People took on debt voluntarily be it through housing, credit cards, student loans or new cars. Rising Debt and decreasing home values will absolutely distort the wealth. Not to mention that according to the wealth stats I am deeply in the red with student loans for my wife and I, a house and 2 car payments. I am not poor, but I have negative wealth.



People over-leveraged here is more if you are interested

http://www.frbsf.org/publications/econo ... 09-16.html

Oh and companies aren't just "pocketing" the money. It either gets passed through to shareholders (ie. people's 401K including I am guessing your own) or gets reinvested.

The Tax Holiday is a good idea. It is now a global economy and that, for the most part is a good thing for the world even if it is not particularly for us. Let them bring the money back, otherwise it will just sit overseas and do nothing for us. The bottom line is jobs are not going to be created at a faster pace by increasing taxes on businesses, you can argue they shouldn't be lowered and that is fine, but raising them in no way incentivizes job creation.

[Ziner]

And I won't start down the higher education budgets the entire thing is fucked up from getting people who shouldnt to go to college and then when they do go let them major in useless degrees.

Ideally, we'd all be accountants.

Don't really get it. Ideally everyone would leave college with a marketable and demanded skill. That isn't too much to strive for.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Taxing the rich is asking them to pay their fair share. They'll survive it.... and still have more money than King Croesus.

If corporations hide money overseas to avoid taxes, they should be fined massively. You're essentially rewarding them for evading taxes.

This may be old hat, but lets legalize Marijuana, tax the shit out of it, and use the money to start fixing our shit infrastructure. That'll create some damn jobs and revenue.

And who exactly would you broaden the base on?

[HoodooMan]

So if everyone had the good sense to pursue a marketable skill, you don't suspect those skills would, as a result, cease to be marketable?

Also, is there no room in this Utopia of Practicality for historians and writers and visual artists and musicians... and specialists of everything else that comprises culture?

[peeker643]

So if everyone had the good sense to pursue a marketable skill, you don't suspect those skills would, as a result, cease to be marketable?

Also, is there no room in this Utopia of Practicality for historians and writers and visual artists and musicians... and specialists of everything else that comprises culture?

They can paint houses and they can write commercial jingles. Maybe play fiddle at the rich accountant weddings.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I'm still wondering what the plan is when the derivative chickens come home to roost again is..... and they will.

Or what we're going to do when the Buy Here Pay Here investment bubble pops.

[Ziner]

Taxing the rich is asking them to pay their fair share. They'll survive it.... and still have more money than King Croesus.

If corporations hide money overseas to avoid taxes, they should be fined massively. You're essentially rewarding them for evading taxes.

They will survive, what is their fair share is? why is 36% not a fair share? 39.6% is their fair share? How can you tell? They are already paying a higher percentage of their income than other people. But like I said, tax them 39.6% that will surely heal the economy, create jobs and bring us back to the 2000's (forget about that bubble)

Once again 36%, 39.6% or 100% it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the deficit and only matters during elections. In the real world it could not be more irrelevant. But now I am just being redundant.

The problem with your fine problem is there is absolutely no way to do that. Nor do we want to discourage American companies doing work overseas, that does create jobs here too ya know. When I worked at US Bank I supported people overseas. Its not all black and white and like the Prop 13 there are unintended consequences. Whatever though, it all distracts from real problems and the Republicans are not with out blame either. Comes back to OWS, they can whine all they want but it isn't going to fix any fundamental problems. Tax all of Wall Street 50%, go for it, the worlds problems aren't solved, in fact they just get worse.

This fun needs livened up. Do yourself a favor and watch this. http://warmingglow.uproxx.com/2011/11/g ... sex-advice

[Cerebral_DownTime]

So if everyone had the good sense to pursue a marketable skill, you don't suspect those skills would, as a result, cease to be marketable?

Also, is there no room in this Utopia of Practicality for historians and writers and visual artists and musicians... and specialists of everything else that comprises culture?

They can paint houses and they can write commercial jingles. Maybe play fiddle at the rich accountant weddings.

That made me lol.

[Ziner]

I'm still wondering what the plan is when the derivative chickens come home to roost again is..... and they will.

Or what we're going to do when the Buy Here Pay Here investment bubble pops.

That's because derivatives have a point and value for everyone. But you are right we should behead them. I mean this in the nicest way possible because I think you are a smart dude, but I really don't feel like you understand much of what happened or even how derivatives are used. Distilling it down to black and white is pointless.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I hate cooking shows and I don't much care for the English.

[peeker643]

So if everyone had the good sense to pursue a marketable skill, you don't suspect those skills would, as a result, cease to be marketable?

Also, is there no room in this Utopia of Practicality for historians and writers and visual artists and musicians... and specialists of everything else that comprises culture?

They can paint houses and they can write commercial jingles. Maybe play fiddle at the rich accountant weddings.

That made me lol.

Not like I did ten seconds ago when I saw your favorite and least favorite players.

Asshole.

[Ziner]

So if everyone had the good sense to pursue a marketable skill, you don't suspect those skills would, as a result, cease to be marketable?

Also, is there no room in this Utopia of Practicality for historians and writers and visual artists and musicians... and specialists of everything else that comprises culture?

Are writers, artists and musicians paid? Oh they are? Interesting, so I would assume that falls under "marketable skill". I am sure there are some historians paid as well. Does the world need 5 million ancient Chinese anthropologist? See the difference? Someone tell me where advising people honestly about earning potential and student loan payments is a bad thing, or advising people to obtain marketable skills.

I know you don't come in here often, but try to keep up dood. This post makes me wonder if you are just bad at sarcasm or stupid

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I'm still wondering what the plan is when the derivative chickens come home to roost again is..... and they will.

Or what we're going to do when the Buy Here Pay Here investment bubble pops.

That's because derivatives have a point and value for everyone. But you are right we should behead them. I mean this in the nicest way possible because I think you are a smart dude, but I really don't feel like you understand much of what happened or even how derivatives are used. Distilling it down to black and white is pointless.

When you're selling you're investors a shit sandwich that you said was 100% Kobe beef, there isn't much grey area. Especially when that shit sandwich gets so big even the people who had nothing to do with it's creation or sale it ended up having to take a bite.

Shit is shit, and it doesn't take a Ivy League economics degree to recognize fraud.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

So if everyone had the good sense to pursue a marketable skill, you don't suspect those skills would, as a result, cease to be marketable?

Also, is there no room in this Utopia of Practicality for historians and writers and visual artists and musicians... and specialists of everything else that comprises culture?

They can paint houses and they can write commercial jingles. Maybe play fiddle at the rich accountant weddings.

That made me lol.

Not like I did ten seconds ago when I saw your favorite and least favorite players.

Asshole.

It's been like that for a week.

In honor of Handsome Vic, all helicopters should be grounded for 10 days.

[Sea Foam Green]

So if everyone had the good sense to pursue a marketable skill, you don't suspect those skills would, as a result, cease to be marketable?

Hell no man. Look at Lawyers, those grads have it made.

[Ziner]

This may be old hat, but lets legalize Marijuana, tax the shit out of it, and use the money to start fixing our shit infrastructure. That'll create some damn jobs and revenue.

And who exactly would you broaden the base on?

Didn't see this part, must have been added late.

Legalize it, I am fully in favor it. I believe it is going on the ballot in CO in the fall.

I would broaden the base in the corporate code to make it more fair. Small business can't play the same accounting shenanigans as GE, Google and GM. That is why those companies are paying very low tax rates. You could argue the same thing about the income tax code, so much social engineering, people with children get credits, people with houses get credits, people who put a special type of window get credits. Guess what, the rich use that shit a ton. The rich can write of houses up to a million, while lower income people who own homes don't even pay enough to take advantage of the tax credit. You broaden the base of taxable income and then you determine the best way to tax it, I am sure ours is difference, who do you think takes advantage of credits for housing, prius's, or charitable deductions more? Poor people or rich people? Broaden the base and get the garbage out

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I make not be able to play a cello or paint, but I can dunk a basketball.... so you gimme the monies. I'll even pay 50% back in taxes.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

If it involves GE actually paying taxes, then small businesses can absolutely get a break.

But small business Joe doesn't have the army of lobbyists to grease the politicians' hands.

[Ziner]

I'm still wondering what the plan is when the derivative chickens come home to roost again is..... and they will.

Or what we're going to do when the Buy Here Pay Here investment bubble pops.

That's because derivatives have a point and value for everyone. But you are right we should behead them. I mean this in the nicest way possible because I think you are a smart dude, but I really don't feel like you understand much of what happened or even how derivatives are used. Distilling it down to black and white is pointless.

When you're selling you're investors a shit sandwich that you said was 100% Kobe beef, there isn't much grey area. Especially when that shit sandwich gets so big even the people who had nothing to do with it's creation or sale it ended up having to take a bite.

Shit is shit, and it doesn't take a Ivy League economics degree to recognize fraud.

I don't have the energy.

You are right, that is why everyone in Wall Street is in prison or on their way. Fraud.

[Ziner]

If it involves GE actually paying taxes, then small businesses can absolutely get a break.

But small business Joe doesn't have the army of lobbyists to grease the politicians' hands.

Thats my point about broadening the base

[HoodooMan]

Are writers, artists and musicians paid? Oh they are? Interesting, so I would assume that falls under "marketable skill".

+

"people who shouldnt to go to college and then when they do go let them major in useless degrees."

+

"Ideally everyone would leave college with a marketable and demanded skill. That isn't too much to strive for."

=

Confusion.

Apparently, I made some faulty assumptions on what, in your opinion, constitutes a "useless degree" and a "marketable skill." That, or your line of thinking is really: "Any degree can be a useless degree but every skill is also marketable. Whether or not you fall under my Umbrella O' Contempt is determined by whether or not you succeed or fail." Which is kind of dumb.

[Sea Foam Green]

Are writers, artists and musicians paid? Oh they are? Interesting, so I would assume that falls under "marketable skill". I am sure there are some historians paid as well. Does the world need 5 million ancient Chinese anthropologist? See the difference? Someone tell me where advising people honestly about earning potential and student loan payments is a bad thing, or advising people to obtain marketable skills.

I know you don't come in here often, but try to keep up dood. This post makes me wonder if you are just bad at sarcasm or stupid

There are also paid Chinese Anthropologists. As there are unemployed accountants. Supply, Demand, Cream rises to the top and all that.

It seems to me that what you're advocating is a technical school for professional degrees. Which I agree with. If all you want is a piece of paper so you can call yourself qualified, you should be able to go to a professional trade school and learn how to punch a calculator, on the cheap, for two years.

Still, if there are any of those crazy people that want to, you know, follow the stated mission of most universities and broaden there horizons by learning about new and interesting things. They ought to be able to do so, no?

[HoodooMan]

So if everyone had the good sense to pursue a marketable skill, you don't suspect those skills would, as a result, cease to be marketable?

Hell no man. Look at Lawyers, those grads have it made.

Yep.

Used to only be the place liberal arts degrees went to die in spirit.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I'm still wondering what the plan is when the derivative chickens come home to roost again is..... and they will.

Or what we're going to do when the Buy Here Pay Here investment bubble pops.

That's because derivatives have a point and value for everyone. But you are right we should behead them. I mean this in the nicest way possible because I think you are a smart dude, but I really don't feel like you understand much of what happened or even how derivatives are used. Distilling it down to black and white is pointless.

When you're selling you're investors a shit sandwich that you said was 100% Kobe beef, there isn't much grey area. Especially when that shit sandwich gets so big even the people who had nothing to do with it's creation or sale it ended up having to take a bite.

Shit is shit, and it doesn't take a Ivy League economics degree to recognize fraud.

I don't have the energy.

You are right, that is why everyone in Wall Street is in prison or on their way. Fraud.

Or because they paid the right people. Money well spent.

[HoodooMan]

It seems to me that what you're advocating is a technical school for professional degrees. Which I agree with. If all you want is a piece of paper so you can call yourself qualified, you should be able to go to a professional trade school and learn how to punch a calculator, on the cheap, for two years.

Yep again.

Perhaps there would be less confusion about what advanced education is for (or at least, traditionally has been for) if Universities had never corrupted themselves with fancied-up vocational degrees.

[FUDU]

I make not be able to play a cello or paint, but I can dunk a basketball.... so you gimme the monies. I'll even pay 50% back in taxes.

You dunking a basketball has nothing to do with skill. It has everything to do with German geneticists cross breeding a giraffe with one of your ancestors.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I make not be able to play a cello or paint, but I can dunk a basketball.... so you gimme the monies. I'll even pay 50% back in taxes.

You dunking a basketball has nothing to do with skill. It has everything to do with German geneticists cross breeding a giraffe with one of your ancestors.

Is that why my tongue is so long and blue and why I have stubby antlers?

Shouldn't you be in the garage monkey wrenching your Dart and blasting some BTO in your badass red jeans?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I'm pretty sure I finally made Ziner's head explode.

Mission Accomplished.

[FUDU]

Ziner I think you're taking CDT's point about the rich as if it is JUST about getting every nickel & dime from them we can. When IMO (as I tend to agree with some of his points) it is as much about creating equal leverage for the working class in terms of the significant advantages the rich have (tax loopholes etc).

For the sake of discussion we'd have to define the term "rich" though. IMO we're not talking about a guy with a working class career who just happens to be smart and disciplined with his money and has zero debt and is far & away better off than 99% of the rest of the working class. Rich = business owner & uber wealthy, IMO at least in this discussion. So there are distinct advantages they have that you me & Dupree don't.

[FUDU]

I make not be able to play a cello or paint, but I can dunk a basketball.... so you gimme the monies. I'll even pay 50% back in taxes.

You dunking a basketball has nothing to do with skill. It has everything to do with German geneticists cross breeding a giraffe with one of your ancestors.

Is that why my tongue is so long and blue and why I have stubby antlers?

Shouldn't you be in the garage monkey wrenching your Dart and blasting some BTO in your badass red jeans?

BTO, that is some funny shit.

[peeker643]

And you don't wear red jeans in Lakewood. Not if you're heterosexual. Hell, if you drop your wallet in Lakewood you should kick it to Rocky River and then pick it up.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

My definition is the very top income bracket. That's all.

[FUDU]

And you don't wear red jeans in Lakewood. Not if you're heterosexual. Hell, if you drop your wallet in Lakewood you should kick it to Rocky River and then pick it up.

Um you just don't wear red jeans period.

Plus you've never seen my wallet.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

And you don't wear red jeans in Lakewood. Not if you're heterosexual. Hell, if you drop your wallet in Lakewood you should kick it to Rocky River and then pick it up.

So the homes in Lakewood have excellent interior design? They must be Fab-u-los.

[FUDU]

That reminds me Peek, there's a certain someone round here that spends a helluva lot of time in Lakewood, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Just sayin.

[peeker643]

And you don't wear red jeans in Lakewood. Not if you're heterosexual. Hell, if you drop your wallet in Lakewood you should kick it to Rocky River and then pick it up.

So the homes in Lakewood have excellent interior design? They must be Fab-u-los.

You see that.

Others see a community full of out of work interior design majors who wasted their college years on a superfluous education and who are now in debt.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

How do these topics switch gears so fast?

[peeker643]

That reminds me Peek, there's a certain someone round here that spends a helluva lot of time in Lakewood, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Just sayin.

He told me it's because that's where his office is and because of the Melt's beer menu.

I didn't question it.

[peeker643]

How do these topics switch gears so fast?

Board is full of smart asses who all have a touch of ADD?