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Browns lakefront development?

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Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:18 am

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/04/cleveland_browns_vision_for_th.html

The Browns could play a similar role on the lakefront if the team lures private investment to the publicly owned waterfront land around Cleveland Browns Stadium and North Coast Harbor.


Initial renderings of the Browns’ lakefront proposal, prepared by the Boston firm of Elkus Manfredi Architects, look more polished than they actually are. They call for a cluster of “mixed-use” buildings along the waterfront northeast of the stadium, along with a field house immediately north of the stadium, a walkway connecting to the downtown Mall and a 1,000-space parking garage north of the Cuyahoga County Courthouse.

It’s all intended to create interest among potential developers, who would then hire their own architects and come up with their own plans.

Despite the early and hypothetical nature of the Browns’ vision, it’s important to make sure that Cleveland is sending clear signals to potential developers about civic goals for the lakefront.

What’s missing now is a firm understanding that a great deal of public planning has already taken place on the lakefront - and that certain waterfront issues ought to be accepted as settled in Cleveland.

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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:26 pm

Crocker Park and Legacy have rocked out right?

Only way to inspire people and capitalize on the reverse white flight that is occuring in most major cities is building "experience" developments like this. Gen Y and Empty Nesters both are immensely drawn to this type of developments (hell, so much so that most surburban developments these days are walkable community centers). About time someone woke up and realized that it's not 1952 re: downtown development.

Kudos to Randy, as this is smart and could be a major difference maker if executed properly.

That said, does Cleveland have any empty nesters and Gen Yer's left? I'm too lazy to bother to actually run the numbers but I'd love to see what demand model they are running, what they are using as the primary market area and if they are doing any competitive market area analysis at all or just using crocker park and legacy.

Damned interesting project I bet and something I would LOVE to see the numbers behind. Also would love to know if the city is going to throw anything their way re: tax breaks or money to help alleviate the impact of demand questions (that I am assuming exist).

Also what kind of industry would this be near? Walkable to any major employment centers? Usable public transit too any?
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:34 pm

And what is the hotel market like there? If there is demand for a hotel due to stadium proximity and what not that can really help making the numbers work. A high demand hotel cap rate is nothing to sneeze at these days. Throw in your standard few floors of condo's, rest rental and some attraction retail and you could have something.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:51 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Also what kind of industry would this be near? Walkable to any major employment centers? Usable public transit too any?


http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/04/cleveland_browns_pitch_mixed-u.html

Just from reading the article they would invite whomever to come down into the buildings there to set up shop. Not only would they have athletic fields adjacent to CBS but they've extended an offer to the Clinic to come down and run a sports medicine or wellness facility.

They would build a 1,000 car garage just south of CBS w/ a covered overpass over the Shoreway. They've also approached RTA with an idea of extending service hours of the free trolley service and extend it's trips to reach the waterfront.

Interesting to see if this actually has a chance. It would at least generate some activity down there.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:02 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:And what is the hotel market like there? If there is demand for a hotel due to stadium proximity and what not that can really help making the numbers work. A high demand hotel cap rate is nothing to sneeze at these days. Throw in your standard few floors of condo's, rest rental and some attraction retail and you could have something.


The closest hotel to CBS is the Doubletree on Lakeside (the old Holiday Inn). Everything else is located more towards Public Sq and Gateway though the walk to CBS from any of these is not that big a deal. With the Medical Mart/Convention Center coming the demand for more hotel space may increase.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:05 pm

I kinda wish CBS was somewhere else other than the lakefront. I just think Cleveland could've made such better use of the lakefront other than have a stadium that's used like 10 days a year.

Imagine a nice long beach for the summer instead of CBS and the Rock Hall. I know there's Edgewater Park but it's relatively small and not even downtown.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:12 pm

Dude if CBS wasn't there no way in hell they'd put in a beach there, terrible spot for a "beach". My concern is the Cleveland Browns, they haven't developed a football team in the past 11 years now they're going to try developing a lakefront?

I hope something gets done by somebody down there, but even still without a legit school system this town is not going to see an uprising sustainable core of young people inside its city limits.

If nothing changes, nothing changes.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:12 pm

::doh::
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:35 pm

Just going off of Chicago's lakefront.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:38 pm

FUDU wrote:without a legit school system this town is not going to see an uprising sustainable core of young people inside its city limits.

If nothing changes, nothing changes.



This is pretty much 100% untrue.

Urban renewal starts with Gen - Y, Empty Nesters and frankly gays for a reason.

Gen Y's median age of child bearing is insanely late at this point and getting later, Empty Nesters are EMPTY and gays often are attracted to unique locations that offer some form of art, culture or architecture that isn't present in the burbs.

I mean please start naming off the major cities in the US with great public school systems.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:41 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:Just going off of Chicago's lakefront.


Because Soldier Field ain't on the lake and because CBS is the only thing standing between Cleveland and Chicago? Aside from a winning Browns team?

Maybe if we get the 1893 World Fair here it'd help.

I'm going with Lee here: ::doh::
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:00 pm

I think they should catch every Sheephead in lake Eire and throw them in between CBS and the lake to rot. Then you sell that land back to Iroquois for 1 million Wompam.

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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby waborat » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:23 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Urban renewal starts with Gen - Y, Empty Nesters and frankly gays for a reason.



Right on^^^^^

Tremont & Ohio City has already beaten Downtown in this department...

What comes first, Cleveland championship or lakefront development?
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:47 pm

While a good example wabs that is nothing substantial enough to be a significant sustainable revenue generator for the city. Don't get too carried away with Tremont/OC though, there aren't that many people there (7500?) and it isn't like a mecca of education and money either (no offense to any of you all, I actually like Tremont). Unless the original point was CTown needs a shift to those types of demographics, age, marital status etc, to which I say WTF.

Long term growth isn't going to happen based on a few extra cool things to do. Will more development help, of course and frankly the more the merrier AFAIC. But to get the population exploding again with long term viability an economy, real jobs & something resembling a school system needs to be in place (as an alternative to living in a suburb, LOL less tax rev for CTown then) . Right now we have virtually none of that.

IMO build up the lake front b/c it makes sense and we need to, but don't do it with the false hope of it being anything more than what it is.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:21 pm

Why do you insist upon talking about a subject (urban renewal) that you know nothing about?

I've worked as a consultant (specifically market based valuations) for these directly analogous developments:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_Yard, ... evelopment

http://www.patriot-place.com/

(Honestly I am sure in their work they are using these, especially the Navy Yards as SE DC was deserted before the stadium/redevelopment) as analog comps.

I've also worked on countless urban renewl development projects everywhere from Atlanta to working on a potential addition to the Garden here in Boston. Fuck I worked on Youngstown 2010 with Jay Williams before he was mayor when I was still at effing YSU.

Urban development has ZERO to do with schools. No one anywhere uses urban school systems for anything beyond shipping the bad neighborhood kids off. Fuck I can go months in Boston without even seeing a kid and when I do see one I get angry and grossed out. Cities are not for kids.

Again, you aim for Gen Y, Empty Nesters and Gays. (as well as some Gen X).

That is why you need to build a true walkable neighborhood with easy access to employment hubs. Public transit is huge to be honest.

Schools don't matter and they sure as fuck have no impact on growing employment. People will commute in, always have and always will.

Cities like Baltimore started out with the Inner-Harbor on their renewal and ran a tourism based model, from their they focused on cleaning up cool little neighborhoods and attracting the exact demo's I just mentioned. Thus far the plan has been working fantastically, as they are pulling off a center out rebuild. With a nice middle of the city and pushing the crime out further and further.

Other places have focused on stadiums (SE DC) and creating a complete community.

Dallas right now has one of the highest concentrations of Gen Yers because they focused on turning the city into a more walkable and urban model (even if in just certain development nodes) with loft based development and attraction retail.

I'm not going to continue to explain this to you, because it's a waste a time, but rest assured you are 100% wrong.

Although it could be worse, your urban renewal plan could be knocking everything down and dumping a shit ton of sand out.

And I just valued a new mixed use development in Fairfax VA in February before I switched to a more money laundering based job. Cap Rates there are already evening out and well out of the big and ugly. Would imagine Cleveland isn't that far off.

Not to mention the potential interest savings from money bags Lerner funding a big chunk of this on his own.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:30 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Why do you insist upon talking about a subject (urban renewal) that you know nothing about?


Coming from the guy who might as well live in Bangladesh in regard to talking about CTown...

Priceless.

You get half a point for the public transit stuff though, atta boy.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:41 pm

You're right FUDU. I have consulted in over 60 markets at my old job. I obviously only understand things through a Bostonian lens.

You hurt my head.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:54 pm

LOL. I'm not even knocking your points, plenty of it makes sense, and frankly if you could read you'd see I'm fine with a tourism angle for more revenue options, I just like it when you call others out for the exact shit you do. SSDD.

More to wabs point about Tremont, I'm not banking on bunch of 31 year olds with barely a HS education that make 25K to revive this city.

...plus I'm bored so bring on as much to do around here as possible.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:06 pm

OK eye, I'm going to legitimately pick your brain on this, RE: home ownership in such a revival, IYO what role does that play in getting a CTown turned around, and is there any relationship between a development plan (IE lake front style) to long term building/ownership? Keeping in mind of course the boondoggle that is our housing market now.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:10 pm

I have no idea how many units they are doing or what the market looks like right now but you are probably looking at a condo - rental mix. My assumption is some of the real real high end stuff starts out condo and you lean way heavy on the rental side with the unit mix. Rental can always be converted, especially if you make the apartment buildings high amenity (ie: share with condo).

That said I don't have the market saturation numbers in front of me so that is just a blind guess.

And like I said, this only works if you turn it into an attraction. You probably need a couple of nice anchor retail tenants.

Lerner's connections and money make this stuff much easier.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby pup » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:07 pm

Kind of sounds like a good place for a casino...
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:17 am

peeker643 wrote:
Rat_Tail wrote:Just going off of Chicago's lakefront.


Because Soldier Field ain't on the lake and because CBS is the only thing standing between Cleveland and Chicago? Aside from a winning Browns team?

Maybe if we get the 1893 World Fair here it'd help.

I'm going with Lee here: ::doh::


Chicago is also a billion times bigger than Cleveland. A stadium there isn't really taking up much space when you consider the size of that city.

All I'm saying is that Cleveland doesn't really take advantage of having a great lake. It's essentially just there to look at.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:32 am

You should work for city planning Rat Racist.

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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby waborat » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:47 am

FUDU wrote:While a good example wabs that is nothing substantial enough to be a significant sustainable revenue generator for the city. Don't get too carried away with Tremont/OC though, there aren't that many people there (7500?) and it isn't like a mecca of education and money either (no offense to any of you all, I actually like Tremont). Unless the original point was CTown needs a shift to those types of demographics, age, marital status etc, to which I say WTF.



Tremont/OC has done a very good job at attracting business owners, home owners/renters and people to drive out of the suburbs for entertainment...

I used those 2 as examples of what downtown should do. Get business people to invest first to clean up the storefronts and rebuild, then get people down there who don't mind spending money on a lifestyle (Lee's 3 examples are perfect) and that will get the suburbanites down there to see what all the hoopla's about...

It's worked on a smaller scale just a mile away. I love what the Browns' org is thinking, but I'm sure the powers that be will FUBAR it as usual
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:16 am

East 4th seems the perfect example on a small scale. Entertainment, rental lofts, condo lofts, downtown businesses all close by...
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby RickNashEquilibrium » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:32 am

waborat wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Urban renewal starts with Gen - Y, Empty Nesters and frankly gays for a reason.



Right on^^^^^

Tremont & Ohio City has already beaten Downtown in this department...

And even Tremont still has some problems because in all their f#$king wisdom, the city felt it would be a good idea to rebuild mixed income project housing AGAIN right in the backyard of a blossoming community within Cleveland. That s#$t replaced the Valley View Housing project and its been nothing but an eyesore and root of a lot of problems. I know urban areas are going to have crime, but the city could have done a a lot better. ::doh::
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:58 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Rat_Tail wrote:Just going off of Chicago's lakefront.


Because Soldier Field ain't on the lake and because CBS is the only thing standing between Cleveland and Chicago? Aside from a winning Browns team?

Maybe if we get the 1893 World Fair here it'd help.

I'm going with Lee here: ::doh::


Chicago is also a billion times bigger than Cleveland. A stadium there isn't really taking up much space when you consider the size of that city.

All I'm saying is that Cleveland doesn't really take advantage of having a great lake. It's essentially just there to look at.


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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby jb » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:51 pm

Larvell Blanks wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:And what is the hotel market like there? If there is demand for a hotel due to stadium proximity and what not that can really help making the numbers work. A high demand hotel cap rate is nothing to sneeze at these days. Throw in your standard few floors of condo's, rest rental and some attraction retail and you could have something.


The closest hotel to CBS is the Doubletree on Lakeside (the old Holiday Inn). Everything else is located more towards Public Sq and Gateway though the walk to CBS from any of these is not that big a deal. With the Medical Mart/Convention Center coming the demand for more hotel space may increase.



FYI - There is an Aloft slated to be built in the Wolstein Flats east bank rebuild.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby jb » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:21 pm

Nothing to add except that other than the ignance I enjoyed picking up what Lee was laying down about urban development. Interesting.

Lee, I question whether that model could work with the typical (once) 70,000 - 150,000 de-industrialized cities such as Warren, Y-town, Springfield, South Bend ...

Is there more than one way to skin a cat without a gay, artsy community and get critical mass?
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:54 pm

jb wrote: Is there more than one way to skin a cat without a gay, artsy community and get critical mass?


Bigot.

They just better put a giant backwards "Past Due" stamp down there. I think they'd do better building waterfront dinning, shopping, marinas, and night lifey type stuff than a beach. You fuckers only get 3 months of warm weather, and 3 days of sunshine.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:21 pm

^^^^^Just to hit on what RiskNash= was hitting on...

Tremont and Ohio City are located near public housing. I'm not even going to beat around the bush, but those communities have stalled. How do you get a critical mass of people, a stratified sample of people, not just small portion of yups, gays, genY, and empty nesters? How do you spend 250,000 plus to live next the the Riverview Commons?

How has this been handled in other markets. As Rick points out Tremont will never be more then a quirky eclectic partially developed city neigborhood. Their is potential for much more.

Long story short. Tear it down.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:33 pm

When Jay was starting Y-town 2010 the focus was going to be what Y-town could offer that the burbs couldn’t (he hired the outside consultants from Toronto’s rebuild to help him set up the plan). Those things were an education and art’s based community with a focus on some higher end bars, etc (which christ, just started coming to fruition, what, two years ago?). I mean I laugh at that “A” apartment building they put up there but you tell me it’s actually nice for the market.

IMO a city like Y-town has to especially focus on people that want urban living and sucking up people graduation from the college that are staying around the are (major, major, major problem).

Cities like that coming back to life is going to be really contingent upon how many youth’s work in the area. If you can provide the jobs and the experience they’ll stay. Downtown Y-town has immense potential as a very small and cool little stretch. Get a bunch of bars, make it affordable, make it security by populace (the U-Penn or Hopkins model where you have people out having fun all the time so criminals find other areas to eff with) and you can start holding onto those graduates.

Now I’m strictly talking about the core city, most of Y-town is fat at this point that needs trimmed.

A big deal also goes into what you define as critical mass?

One of the biggest aspects of Y-town 2010 was cleaning up the deserted neighborhoods (read: removing) and the brownfields. I have no idea what the progress is on that front since I haven’t spoken with Jay in ages and haven’t been inside the city of Y-town but twice since the early part of the aughts.

Fact is that this country has enough McMansions EVERYWHERE that youth in revolt have turned against them.

Also, I don’t know if a biggoted place like The Mahoning Valley (in regards to Youngstown) will ever socially tear down enough walls to appreciate the opportunity. Then again I laughed at Trafficant’s last ditch effort to get love with that stupid ass convention center thing and it worked out well (at least at first, no idea now).

EOD: wherever you have education, art and walk ability you have potential. Good the South Weymouth Air Base Redevelopment. I worked on that project about six times from 2007 to my February career shift and it still isn’t fully moving forward but it is going to be your model redevelopment for the smaller city (much different income than Y-town though). This is what your modern community center development is: townhomes, apartments and condos with attraction retail and some office and maybe hotel.

My experience with McMansions was mainly tied to valuing portfolios for large developers and builders selling multi-billion dollar portfolios to the banks for ten cents on the dollar to try and clear some bad debt off their books and stay afloat.

There are literally hundreds of these articles popping up now: http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/no-mc ... nials.html. This isn’t just some new development; it is the future of development. Fuck my former company started churning out articles for papers on this back in 2007 when the downturn crushed us and we had nothing else to do (beyond marketing). Also if you start researching the “pre-adulthood” stuff you can really start to get a grip on how different Gen Y is. My little brother is worse than me, I left Ohio for the East Coast, he’s going to China to teach English. I won’t even consider marriage till 35. I’m on the later side but no one I hang out with has married before 28. And kids… BAHAHAHA

This is also must read stuff from The Atlantic back in 2008: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... slum/6653/

Factually when we finally kill off all the old bastards that sucked the life out of this country and left us bankrupt we’re going to have a much different US. You’ll still have places like South Range where everyone inbreeds with a girl two years their younger and sends their kids to school there, but that will be far more exception than norm.

I personally vote for just sending all the boomers to Florida then annexing it to Cuba.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:39 pm

w/o kids how does the next eyeeye get trained? Succession planning.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby jb » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:48 pm

Orenthal wrote:w/o kids how does the next eyeeye get trained? Succession planning.



I dig Lee's experience / expertise on this as this is interesing shit. Getting a new perspective. Concur on his takes of what Gen Y wants: for now.

Until they hit 40 and freak out their lives are without meaning like they are the first people to ever stumble upon mid-life. There is a little exceptionalism hubris in Y that is reminsiscent of the bayboos. That "we're so different" jazz. You might see people having kids in their 50's in that generation it's collective development is so delayed. I do, however, hope that we've seen the end of the grotesque McMansions and some of the unqiue single homes that aren't the Levittown bungalows make a comeback and people see the value in a re-model and reviving communities in the vein the article on yahoo described: walking, shops, mixed use. Even in the non-exurb burbs. I like many of the lifestyle values that Y purports to have.

Erikson will trump all the hype of how different people are now. Just as the bayboos became their mad men parents in many ways, albeit with less swag and more shag , the Y - ers won't ba all that different in the end.

BTW - Good thing Bethesda is so affordable. :lmfao:
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:47 pm

I'm better than a mid-life crisis.

And I influence everyone around me every day OJ. My aura will live on in everyone I meet.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:14 pm

jb wrote:
Orenthal wrote:w/o kids how does the next eyeeye get trained? Succession planning.



I dig Lee's experience / expertise on this as this is interesing shit. Getting a new perspective. Concur on his takes of what Gen Y wants: for now.

Until they hit 40 and freak out their lives are without meaning like they are the first people to ever stumble upon mid-life. There is a little exceptionalism hubris in Y that is reminsiscent of the bayboos. That "we're so different" jazz. You might see people having kids in their 50's in that generation it's collective development is so delayed. I do, however, hope that we've seen the end of the grotesque McMansions and some of the unqiue single homes that aren't the Levittown bungalows make a comeback and people see the value in a re-model and reviving communities in the vein the article on yahoo described: walking, shops, mixed use. Even in the non-exurb burbs. I like many of the lifestyle values that Y purports to have.

Erikson will trump all the hype of how different people are now. Just as the bayboos became their mad men parents in many ways, albeit with less swag and more shag , the Y - ers won't ba all that different in the end.

BTW - Good thing Bethesda is so affordable. :lmfao:


I'm enjoying the perspective as well as I almost got into the technical aspect of the topic through architecture, but alas I'm stuck down here with the rest of the common folk.

eye RE: your comments on education, were you speaking of higher education or just in general? My OP kind of hijacked off the focus of the lake front revival b/c once you get out of down town CTown needs more than just some "stuff" to do. I'm in the middle of a neighborhood in which many solid family residents are seriously contemplating skating to the burbs STRICTLY due to the lack of a public school option as there isn't a private HS round here that will be less than 13K in the next 8-10yrs when kiddies are at ready for HS. IMO CTown cannot afford to continue to lose these types of people and incomes (taxes), not saying they cannot/will not spend time in downtown.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby jb » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:12 am

e0y2e3 wrote:I'm better than a mid-life crisis.

And I influence everyone around me every day OJ. My aura will live on in everyone I meet.



heh.

the curse and blessing of your gen is that you take Erik Erikson's stages and projected life years they ocur and add 10.

For example, you are basically adolescents until you are 28 - 30 and think about moving out of the house , and you won't hit mid-life until you are 50. Then it'll all be like "hurr, durr, whatddaya mean I missed my shot at having kids and Imina die alone?"

Laugh now.

A good investment tip would be to go into the self-help industry in about 25 years.

PS - No one bothers to analyse gen x becasue we are irrelevant, so don't feel insulted
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Jumbo » Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:47 am

e0y2e3 wrote:EOD: wherever you have education, art and walk ability you have potential.


Lee: My question, then, is how interconnected each of those three things needs to be. If you're looking just at Downtown, the problem I've seen (from afar, admittedly) is that even if they can develop multiple "walkable districts" there isn't enough walkability between them to develop the "critical mass" described. To compare to Boston (where both of us are), it's possible to walk from the North End to Fenway Park and never leave a neighborhoods or commercial area that provides at least some residential appeal. (Or, if the weather is bad, the subway is relatively convenient.) On the other hand, as I recall, to walk just from CBS to West 6th street means you have to go through the empty-after-work Mall area, and Public Square is an outdoor bus station (thanks, JB, for giving it that title). There's not much incentive to make that walk, especially in a brutal winter. (Winters elsewhere are just as bad, but people don't mind being outside if there's a reason to be.)

Oh, and: the education and arts centers of Cleveland are nowhere near this lakefront development. If you can't move people around efficiently, or if they don't want to walk, then you haven't gotten it to work, right?

On the flip side of the coin, the Cleveland suburban model is so spread out that you would have to have a unique draw to bring people from the suburbs into the city, and I feel like the kinds of things that would cater to suburban travelers (sports bars, chain stores, heck the Science Museum that is already built there) aren't hitting the same urban/arts demo that you are talking about.

All of that said, if Lerner is fronting the money, this kind of development seems like a good start...bring in the jobs and a place for young(ish) people to live and work, and you might have the start of something. It has to be different from the "suburban playground" that people just drive in and drive out from, though.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby mistero » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:04 am

Not that this helps, but it's too damn bad that the Cleveland Clinic with it's 20 thousand daily visitors/workers, UH and Case Western are 90 blocks east of downtown.

At least they put up the "Health Line" bus line along the Euclid Corridor?????

How about a rail line from CCF to downtown ...with spokes heading out to Lorain and Lake county.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:18 am

I’m just talking about neighborhoods, not cities with the walkability thing. I’m referring to putting everything you need right there, making sure a safe bus runs across the city and apparently still driving a car. It seems the Browns acknowledge and have planned for this. That said you have to keep in mind that developments like this are a “one node at a time” type of thing. I’m not talking about saving the city in one fell swoop, I’m talking about literally doing a Legacy or Crocker Park type of draw within the city.

Also I’m less concerned with proximity to the education nodes than I am attracting those that come from them (and yes FUDU, I’m just talking higher education). Cleveland has three pretty solid schools within proximity that downtown could focus on attracting residents from. Cleveland is never going to have a BU – Harvard – Berkley - MIT – Northeastern – Suffolk – Emerson core but Case – BW and JC aren’t a bad start and the retention rate should be higher. Everyone I know from any of those schools lives just about anywhere but downtown. Even those with good paying jobs downtown.

The transportation thing is huge and that’s why I’ve mentioned public transit at least three times here. Fuck, I worked with the New Boston Fund on a mixed-use monstrocity that they were going to dump in shit ass Alewife. The key to it working was a walking bridge to the T (subway). Walking the city is a moot point and Boston’s “small” scale is why I call it the best walking city in America (cue JB talking about some 5K person shit hole in South Carolina). The proximity to Arts, Employment (the big key) and other cool “neighborhoods” is 100% tied to the cities ability to ship people about. If you don’t establish that you are going to be fighting to a draw a bunch of mouth breathers that are hyped to live by the Browns stadium and have a decorating taste centered around shitty orange bars.

And sure, you have a point re: the tourist traps, but Boston is no different. The mass-holes roll in to hit up shit like the Children’s Museum or Kenmore Square then they leave. Doesn’t impact the viability of a few cool bars in a cool neighbourhood. With how often I hear about the success of high end food in Cleveland I have to believe there is a market for attraction retail and social spots. You do have a point though and it is why I didn’t bother to respond to Pup’s casino remark (I wanted to avoid the slippery slope, the point was very valid). Things like a casino are destination attractions that nobody wants to live by. Building around that is a dangerous world. Same goes for building around CBS. You’re either going to have to provide a cultural experience in a development in an area with none (don’t overyhype this remark, this can mean high end food, shopping and bars) or set stupidly low price points and aim for that orange bar douche I mentioned above.

And yeah, I’m just talking off the cuff here. Normally I have 10K tools at my disposal for actual analysis and spend a week just hanging out in a market with local brokers. Change in careers has shifted me to money laundering through affordable housing instead of development so I no longer have access to as many tools as I had before. I’d KILL to do a PRIZM analysis of Cleveland.

As for the school thing FUDU, how fucking big is Cleveland’s public school system? When they swallowed up every single surrounding city did they actually swallow up all the schools too? If so you’ve got a gov’t issue, not an urban renewal issue.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:10 am

e0y2e3 wrote:I’m not talking about saving the city in one fell swoop, I’m talking about literally doing a Legacy or Crocker Park type of draw within the city.


If the West Side already has Crocker Park and the East Side already has Legacy Village, who's going all the way downtown for the same experience? People from Strongsville?

I'd guess that upscale dining works in Cleveland because there aren't very many quality options in the burbs that can compete (a few yes, not very many). That, and these restaurants are convenient to our gay community.

Gay people are going to (appropriately) roll their eyes at a Cheesecake Factory-dining & Abercrombie-shopping quality destination, and the people in the burbs who like that garbage already have it nearby. Maybe something like that works before CP & LV existed, but not now I don't think.

Only shot I see that Cleveland has at a truly desirable neighborhood is Ohio City. They aren't exactly Back Bay/South End-quality row homes, but there is some decent old architecture there that's worth restoring. It has a great base of restaurants and a great foodie attraction in the West Side Market. It just needs to pull the gallery/shopping destinations out of Tremont & Gordon Square. That, and I'd imagine a little less crime would help too.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:13 am

I've really enjoyed this thread. Lots of good stuff going on here.

I just wanted to spend some time talking about one of the very many issues that will determine the success or failure of this project IMO. I realize that this is just a drop in a very large bucket, but the TYPE and PRICE POINT for the housing units are important issues to focus on.

I agree with e0. Lean HEAVY on the rental units. Here's why...

I'd imagine I'm pretty close in age to e0 (29). First things first, Gen Y wants flexibility. Mobility. This generation will live / work one place for a few years, move to another city for a few years...and on it goes. No one wants tied down to a mortgage, especially considering the recent economic and real estate meltdown. Our fathers and father's fathers valued home ownership. American Dream. I dont sense that with my generation, at least not as much. Sure -- if you can steal a property -- by all means, go ahead. But, with my friends, I see more "value" being put on having the ability to live out a lease and move on. Or stay. Again -- flexibility. The "value" of equity <snicker> in a house is not as high. [*I fully understand my personal situation spits in the face of this...which I will explain below]

So, rentals. Lots of them. Now the trouble is price point. You dont wants tons of vacancies, but you dont want deadbeats. I think E 4th has done a nice job with this. Lots of options, varying price points, but those buildings have set the price points low enough to get recent college grads (the goal) and high enough to exclude riff raff.

A word on condos (purchase). IMO, these should be limited, but they need to be there. I would again, keep the price points reasonable so as to lure this person: guy graduated JCU, went to Case for MBA. Works at Key (or whereever) downtown. Move to the lakeshore development fresh outta Case...rented for ~5 yrs. Engaged. Now wants to buy in this neighborhood.

Also, as e0 said...the trendy empty nesters that think its so cool they live back in the city after being in the burbs for so long. They should be targeted. Again, above all, price point is very important...no one is gonna pay a mill+ here. That dont work in Ctown (see Pinnacle).

Problem I see? Much cheaper to buy than build now...building material costs are rising...developers may need to seek higher rent / purchase prices. That woudl hurt a project like this. A progressive City could help...

[*My personal story flies in teh face of what most of what Gen Y is about. Went to grad school at Case. Lived in Cleveland for a few years, move back to Youngstown mostly for a girl. (FML) Bought a house in the burbs. Couple years passed. Still have Youngstown. Still have the house. Dont have the girl. Bitches. In the process of putting it on the market, and moving back to Ctown. Job requires me to stay in NEO. I'm gonna rent.]
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby mistero » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:29 am

"Only shot I see that Cleveland has at a truly desirable neighborhood is Ohio City"

Ohio City is owned by hispanic street gangs, Totally owned. How are you going to deal with the safety issue?

At least downtown is vacant and you have more of a "clean slate".
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:01 pm

^Agree. Take 10 steps north of the West Side Market block and your at River View Tower. Get past Detroit and Superior and your at Lakeview Terrace. Like having a car? Like having a house that doesn't get broken into?

eh, not worth buying the rehab and the finished product has a very limited market and is overpriced.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby jb » Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:08 pm

now what strikes me about Lee's thoughts most is the failure of RTA to address higher SES commuter needs and how beholden it is to the city's lower SES citizens. The vision of mass transit in Ohio isn't the same as on the coast. It is designed for those who don't have access to cars and the elderly who have no other options, not as a means of economic dvelopment. When they try the latter, it fall short becsue they can't let go of the former. It is a worthy debate perhps from a societal good perspective, but it fails for econmic dvelopment. If you look at the Metro in DC, it is completely different. The Red Line runs node to node and simply does not have a node in the west that is a shit hole. To get to the iffy areas you need to transfer at major, crowded, secure hubs to the green or yellow lines. Access / egress is carefully conrolled and limited.

In Cuyahoga County, light rail stops at some really shady areas. They are rebuilding a huge stop at E 55th. Really? despite the weirdos who told us how safe it was to play wiffleball at old League park, I wouldn't even drive north of St Clair on 555th in the daylight. There's stops at E 79th, E 105th, Woodhill; I mean hard core hood. The red line east is a complete and total hood line and has been since the day it was built. Windemere was a freak show when I rode way back in coughcough never mind. Let's just say I had to pick seats wher ethe tops werenb't covered in Soul Glow and the boom boxes were pumping out Ashford & Simpson. Professionals and mid to upper SES want no prt of that, and for good reason. The Silver (health) line decision to be above ground nd make more than a handful of higher end node stops represents this kind of failure.

What you could do, for example, is take the existing Shaker Green Line, and eliminate about 2/3rds of the stops, figure out a re-route to university circle that makes sense and build a massive hub, and then run the line out to where people now live instead of stopping at Green Road. Then run a totally different local train in the inner city so there's no inter migling.

Same deal with the east Red Line. Have atrain that's only stop between downtown and Vine Stret in Eastlake in a renovated University Circle stop that runs out to Mentor.

Inside Cleveland, craete node to node routes from the types of places Lee describes, and stop making the neighorborhood stops in shitty areas.

Run all of these later and get a security officer on each.

Problem with that is it'd get outed as blatantly an effort to seperate SES and called racist
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:33 pm

^ that is why I was talking about commuter rail in the other thread... obviously light rail transit could be a part of that. All of it in conjuction with plans to revitalize areas. Putting a transit system in that makes it reasonable to not have a car will lure people down there. In Chicago the areas around the Metra stops are getting new condos, restaurants, apartments, even businesses moving in because GenY wants to live downtown, but can't find a job downtown. The reverse commute is getting so popular I believe they have some express reverse commute lines. It is quite a transformation to revitalize downtown, obviously going to take a long time, but commuter rail and light rail can go along way in making that a reality, restoring a tax base and just giving the city a better image which helps to attract businesses.

That is why I get so frustrated when they talk about regional rail lines. Waste of money except the Northeast. No one wants to go to from downtown Cleveland to downtown Nati. But make it convienent to take the train from Downtown Cleveland to Lubrizol, Cleveland Clinic, and Progressive and now you have just made living downtown easy. I drove from Little Italy to Mentor for my job. When I moved to Chicago it took about the same length of time on the train. I would take the train 10 times out of 10.

Oh and busses suck. Send those to the poor areas where you can't charge 100/month for rail. Shut down the redline in Cleveland past University Circle. Its fucking gross. We always took a cab from CWRU to downtown instead of taking the chance of getting stabbed on that line. Gotta have a few late night trains as well.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:07 pm

Safest place in Cleveland? 7am - 3pm E70th - East BLVD... North of Superior. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Spin » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:11 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:I kinda wish CBS was somewhere else other than the lakefront. I just think Cleveland could've made such better use of the lakefront other than have a stadium that's used like 10 days a year.

Imagine a nice long beach for the summer instead of CBS and the Rock Hall. I know there's Edgewater Park but it's relatively small and not even downtown.


You can do that now by moving the Mather, get rid of the docks that someone recently decided were going to be useful again (probably to import Chinese steel (did the locks on the St Lawrence Seaway get expanded or did they figure out a way to earn the same profit with short ships)).

If I were king, I'd level a sparsely populated neighborhood on the east side, build an airport, and develop Burke into a REAL lakefront development. Hotels, casino, beach, restaraunts. I'd use the runways for streets, and once a year bring back the Grand Prix. Right through the development.
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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:17 pm

Ziner wrote:^ that is why I was talking about commuter rail in the other thread... obviously light rail transit could be a part of that. All of it in conjuction with plans to revitalize areas. Putting a transit system in that makes it reasonable to not have a car will lure people down there. In Chicago the areas around the Metra stops are getting new condos, restaurants, apartments, even businesses moving in because GenY wants to live downtown, but can't find a job downtown. The reverse commute is getting so popular I believe they have some express reverse commute lines. It is quite a transformation to revitalize downtown, obviously going to take a long time, but commuter rail and light rail can go along way in making that a reality, restoring a tax base and just giving the city a better image which helps to attract businesses.

That is why I get so frustrated when they talk about regional rail lines. Waste of money except the Northeast. No one wants to go to from downtown Cleveland to downtown Nati. But make it convienent to take the train from Downtown Cleveland to Lubrizol, Cleveland Clinic, and Progressive and now you have just made living downtown easy. I drove from Little Italy to Mentor for my job. When I moved to Chicago it took about the same length of time on the train. I would take the train 10 times out of 10.

Oh and busses suck. Send those to the poor areas where you can't charge 100/month for rail. Shut down the redline in Cleveland past University Circle. Its fucking gross. We always took a cab from CWRU to downtown instead of taking the chance of getting stabbed on that line. Gotta have a few late night trains as well.



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Re: Browns lakefront development?

Unread postby Commodore Perry » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:44 pm

RickNashEquilibrium wrote:
Tremont & Ohio City has already beaten Downtown in this department...

And even Tremont still has some problems because in all their f#$king wisdom, the city felt it would be a good idea to rebuild mixed income project housing AGAIN right in the backyard of a blossoming community within Cleveland. That s#$t replaced the Valley View Housing project and its been nothing but an eyesore and root of a lot of problems. I know urban areas are going to have crime, but the city could have done a a lot better. ::doh::


Evidently CHMA doesn't see being poor as an obstacle to living in new construction in trendy, high income neighborhoods.
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