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Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:49 pm

Ziner wrote:
exiledbuckeye wrote:
Unrelated: is it ethical to continue to slash taxes on the wealthy and expect the middle class to pick up the slack? Solving budget shortfalls with attacks on teachers and public employees should be at odds with the Republican Party's public facade of Christian values, "family" values, and representing "ordinary" people. How is putting these people out of a job, or slashing a family's modest income ethically superior to restoring Reagan or Clinton era tax rates on incomes above $250,000?


The comfort that politicians and voters have in spending rich people's money makes me laugh. IMO the real problem isn't that the wealthy don't have enough skin in the game, it is the people at the bottom have little to none in the game. Easy to always ask for more when it isn't yours.

There is nothing getting slashed in Wisco from what I can tell. The health care is before tax and I would guess the pension is as well (I wouldn't know). They are telling their employees they can't continue to take from others to give to them. Maybe they could use their 3-4 months off a year to figure out how to make it up. My contribution level to my health care went up last year, I didnt expect the rich to pay for it, why should they? I don't have the luxury of 3-4 months a year to have a part time job to make up for it so I just bend over.


:nanner:

:thumb up:
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:49 pm

My fiancée is a teacher in the Berea district. She does get up at 5:00 in the morning, which I sure as hell wouldn’t do, and she does work hard, cares, is conscientious and all of those good things. But with tenure, with a decade in the district under her belt, she doesn’t have to do any of those things. She does them because that’s simply how she approaches her career and her life. If she wanted to fuck around and be lazy she could do that too.

The system has nothing to do with her drive and commitment to the career. By her admission there are plenty of fuck-ups in that line of work and they’re rewarded just as much as she is.

And teachers get plenty of perks. They get snow days when the rest of us just have to suck it up and go to work. They get summers off. Christmas Break. Spring Break. Four-day weekend on Easter. President’s Day. MLK Day. Veteran’s Day. They are paid plenty for what they do- and don’t tell me they aren’t getting paid enough because they are, believe me. Given the ridiculous amount of time they get off, the tenure they get and the fact that they basically can do anything short of murder or rape without being fired, it would be an outrage if they were paid more.

The only way anyone can argue in favor of what teachers get is personal/anecdotal: “I have a parent/relative/significant other who teaches and he/she is wonderful!” I believe these people succeed in spite of the system, not because it. Because the system itself rewards laziness and sloth.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:50 pm

A few things then I will stay out of this, as I can't really provide an objective point of view:

Teacher contracts are 200 days. I get paid once a month, from September to June.

There isn't single person in the world who wouldn't complain about losing money. Not one.

Ohio's school funding system is awful. I don't blame you for being upset about having to raise you taxes every year. Change it.

I don't think there is a teacher alive who wouldn't rather punch a time clock than get a salary.

Pup, do you really want those people teaching your child?
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:51 pm

^^Again :thumb up: ;-) ;) :wink: :nanner: :pop: :salute:

I feel like peeker. :clap:
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:52 pm

danwismar wrote:From what I read, Walker is asking teachers to contribute half of their pension funds (like most of the rest of the country, where employer and employee make exactly equal contributions to SS and Medicare...or where employers match some percentage, or in some cases, 100% of employee 401k contributions).

He is asking for them to pay 12.6% of their healthcare premium, which is comparable to many of their private sector counterparts.

This is because his charter as governor is to do something about the $3 billion budget shortfall he inherited. How that deficit compares to how well or how badly some other state is doing is a concern to him why, exactly?

What is amazing to me is that his actions are attributed to "hate" of someone or some group of people.


I've never met a Republican who does not hate unions. Unions are an organization. I never said that Walker hated teachers. I would bet that he hates unions as organizations, either because he believes they are "scum" or because it is politically expedient (or both).
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:54 pm

^or because he sees their goal as unrealistic, unfair, and fiscally unsustainable.

Least that is what causes me to hate them. Take me back 100 years, and I probably don't hate them. What they did in the past is, well, Pantera had a song about yesterday.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:56 pm

Orenthal wrote:^or because he sees their goal as unrealistic, unfair, and fiscally unsustainable.

Least that is what causes me to hate them. Take me back 100 years, and I probably don't hate them. What they did in the past is, well, Pantera had a song about yesterday.


Fair point.

I also stand by my post on the last page. As taxpayers we should be thanking god that public education is socialized. If we paid teachers market wages, based on merit, the taxpayers would be shitting bricks.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:57 pm

exiledbuckeye wrote:I think that teachers should be paid MUCH higher than they currently are. We should put them on a pedestal, because I think it is one of, if not the most, important job in this country.


No way on both counts. No way they should be paid more and no way they should be pedestalized. They get plenty of both.

And the last thing a lot of teachers should want is a merit-based system of pay, promotion or otherwise. No one goes into the public sector to be judged on merit.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby danwismar » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:00 pm

I want to grab the unionized teachers' back for just a minute here, and make a point that takes some of the heat off them...and see what others think.

It's a common bitch that I hear from teachers, and I think it's an entirely legitimate one....

And that is how school administrators game the system to their benefit by feathering their nest at the expense of the student and teacher in the classroom. The high school my wife taught at for 35 years now has four principals instead of one, as one example.

They are cutting teachers, using budget cuts as the excuse, but administrative staff keeps growing like a weed, as if there's money to burn. Teachers are laid off, while every principal, superintendent, and assistant superintendent and assistant to the assistant, just got a shiny new iPad.

That's just part of the problem. The other is a form of political correctness, for lack of a better handle, which creates a system in which an incredible cost is associated with the "mainstreaming" of what the teachers call "the alphabet kids"...the LD, MRDD, otherwise disabled...and the other special category students of all kinds.

Estimates I have heard are that some 25% of the school budget is now spent on about 1 or 2% of the students. I'm talking about all the personnel (administrative, non-teaching folks) like special drivers, chauffers, tutors, counselors, psychologists, mentors, security people, medical people, people to walk these kids from class to class, etc.

I have no less sympathy or concern for these kids and their parents and their special needs than anyone else. But the costs of keeping them in the same classrooms with the majority of kids has become astronomical, from everything I hear.

I don't claim to have all the questions, let alone the answers, but the point is that: 1) self-serving, careerist school administrators and 2) the huge costs associated with mainstreaming a tiny fraction of the student population, both contribute to the costs of public education...and neither has anything to do with unionized teachers doing their jobs in the classroom teaching the average and above average students.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Cease » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:11 pm

Great comments throughout, few points from my POV.

- My wife is an HS teacher in Lakewood. We spend $350-$500 a year on very basic supplies (paper, pencils, folders, grading programs, A/V material) on behalf of her students' parents. It comes with the territory and I'm fine with that.

- I feel she is fairly compensated for her work. She's a hell of a teacher, and it's not a cakewalk job by any means. It's a nut-cruncher, to be honest. Teachers are apt to get defensive and bitch about $$ because the "they aren't worth it" drum has been beating for a while and they beg to differ.

- I'm damn lucky she can cover our family with health insurance, or I sure as hellfire wouldn't be able to start my own business and cover that expense. I can see how this turns into a have/have not argument and that we are benefiting where others are not. Personally, I don't think the root of the problem is "teacher entitlement," I think it's the systemically inflated healthcare costs stemming from A) unpaid treatment of the poor and B, C, D) malpractice BS, bureaucracy, inefficiencies, etc.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:12 pm

The whole public education system is wack, but that gets us back to the point that the federal government can't run anything this big efficiently. Everytime I see a one time stimulus give to schools I cry. They create seemingly permanent jobs from temporary stimulus and then cry when that job has to be eliminated due to shortfall.

The administrators are like the weak CEO's. They game the system in their own way, but mostly because they know they can't beat a union with government sponsors. The reason Madison is happening is because they have a leader willing to tackle the issue. Any money that the administrators balls are about 33 times bigger now the a year ago. Get the ball rolling and they can make better decisions. If they can't Walker should be after their head next.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:32 pm

Best NHB thread in a while.

Interesting comparing PsOV v polotical leanings/age demographics.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:00 pm

Ed Schultz "This has opened America's eyes as to the agenda of the Republicans"

Then if he didn't go off the air he would have called them psychos and then bitched about the tone of the right.

Hope he is right... about America and the Republicans.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:02 pm

Ziner wrote:Ed Schultz "This has opened America's eyes as to the agenda of the Republicans"

Then if he didn't go off the air he would have called them psychos and then bitched about the tone of the right.

Hope he is right... about America and the Republicans.


What the hell does the Charlie Brown guy have to do with anything? I thought he was dead.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:43 pm

Some numbers for you guys.

For Dan- the percentage of administrators per other school employees (instructional staff) has gone down since 1950 (3.3% to 2.5%).
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/ ... 09_080.asp

And when compared to other industries is quite low:

.." elementary and secondary schools have approximately 14 persons employed for each administrator (manager) compared to 9 in transportation, 8 in food products, 7 in manufacturing, 6 in utilities and construction, 5 in printing/ publishing, 4 in communications, and 3 in public administration"- Perceptions about American Education: Are They Based on Facts? ERS Concerns in Education.

Salary growth when compared to other fields- large file, but good information

http://www.aft.org/pdfs/teachers/salarysurvey07.pdf

Educational Expenditures as % of GDP:
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/ ... fig_28.asp
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby danwismar » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:50 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:Some numbers for you guys.

For Dan- the percentage of administrators per other school employees (instructional staff) has gone down since 1950 (3.3% to 2.5%).
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/ ... 09_080.asp

And when compared to other industries is quite low:

.." elementary and secondary schools have approximately 14 persons employed for each administrator (manager) compared to 9 in transportation, 8 in food products, 7 in manufacturing, 6 in utilities and construction, 5 in printing/ publishing, 4 in communications, and 3 in public administration"- Perceptions about American Education: Are They Based on Facts? ERS Concerns in Education.

Salary growth when compared to other fields- large file, but good information

http://www.aft.org/pdfs/teachers/salarysurvey07.pdf

Educational Expenditures as % of GDP:
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/ ... fig_28.asp


Thanks for the numbers. I guess I would just point out that "administrators" or what other industries would call "managers" are one thing, and the many, many other non-teaching employees that I was talking about...escorts, caretakers, counselors, hall monitors, chauffeurs, medical help, security...etc...wouldn't be counted in those administration numbers, but are still administrative overhead....costs...that aren't associated with classroom instruction per se.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:14 pm

danwismar wrote:The many, many other non-teaching employees that I was talking about...escorts, caretakers, counselors, hall monitors, chauffeurs, medical help, security...etc...wouldn't be counted in those administration numbers, but are still administrative overhead....costs...that aren't associated with classroom instruction per se.


You're right about the cost of educating our very special students, it's expensive. Considerably more than for the average student. But we take them all- no child left behind, right.

Consider that as well when you look at other countries' test scores and expenditures. Many other countries track their students, and only the smart ones actually go to school.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:27 pm

Just learned the Virginia General Assembly has been borrowing money from the retirement system for years, to the tune of 750 million dollars. The VRS system is broke because the money was taken out by our lawmakers. Their solution to repair the situation, charge state employees for their retirement (around 5% for me).

This has been going on in many states. So when a governor tells a union they have to start paying for their own retirement because the system is broke, the reason why it is broke is because the state has stolen the money from it to begin with.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:19 pm

NBC with Brian Williams did a report on Wisconsin tonight and had this to say, which I thought was interesting.

The public unions being asked to pay more for health care and pensions are the teachers and prison guards (I think), both of which did NOT support the governor in the past election.

The public unions that are for some reason exempt are the firefighters, police, and state troopers, all of which DID support the governor in the past election.

At least, that's how I understood it from the report. Maybe there's a good explanation other than more political bullshit, but that seems pretty shitty on the face of it.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby jerryroche » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:06 am

motherscratcher wrote:Maybe there's a good explanation other than more political bullshit, but that seems pretty shitty on the face of it.


Totally agree. I guess if we want to eliminate the "political bullshit," we could always move to Iran or North Korea. But here in the good old U.S. of A., there will always be a you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours mentality among elected officials. It's been that way for more than 200 years, and it'll probably always be that way, whether the citizenry likes it or understands it or not.

Anyhoo, "political bullshit" is how the states and the feds got into this mess in the first place: legislators who doled out immense power to unions in exchange for members' votes in the next election.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:17 am

Yeah, shit like that is always going to happen, police and fire should probably be involved as well. But it isnt as if this dude is the first one to do it. Why do you suppose there is no tort reform in Obamacare?
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:03 am

The ship has sailed as far as teachers being viewed as respected professionals. and as a country, we missed the boat. Posts here on the other side of this are very understandable - and driven my union abuse.

It would have been very important and beneficial, years ago, to establish teaching as a respected profession. With this (which would fly in the face of many current and valid points) would be this professionalism underscored by holding them to standards as rigorous as their counterparts in law or medicine. With this, college professors, business and legal professionals and most importantly military professionals would have been encouraged to teach - instead of being disuaded by low salaries and bad reputations. The single most successful educational enterprise on earth is the U.S. military. good Christ, how helpful would it be to have officers reenter the civilian job market and teach - in inner city schools?

I've said this before on this site, but it's worth saying again - cause it explains much. The United States leads the world in one educational category - most money spent per public school student. At Russia's lowest point, bankrupt, exhausted and struggling, they had over 5 million students studying calculus. America had half a mil. The top 5 percent of US students are matched at the top by 50% of Japanese students. They are planting seeds for the future - with their children, while the US ties up all thier funds in the bureaucracy. So many nations doing more with less, in regards to $.

A few other things if we want to straighten some shit out;

Spend the Federal dollars on programs that work. The Department of Education spends 200 million annually on "Research, Statistics and Asessment" Most of these studies end up in a cabinet somewhere. In many local school districts throughout the country there are success stories. We KNOW what works. Reallocate that money in implementing these programs, instead of wasting it reinventing the wheel.

The system needs to treat parents as consumers. The system is upside down, in relation to a successful one. The educators, administrators and bureaucrats have all the power. Parents should be able to choose which school within its district their child will attend. This will put pressure on districts to provide equitable choices, and punish poorly run schools. This same parent, if treated as a consumer, should clearly know how these schools rate. How does this school measure up against others in the state? Nation? World? This would lead to employers having the same information. Right now it's a 200 billion dollar industry operating in the dark. Big suprise it ain't working.

Our most successful schools hold one thing in common - They have a determined principal who is an academic leader and who takes pride in the achievements of the students. We can't bind these people with regulations and bureacratic orders from the high. More importantly, we can't let incompetents stay on the job. This of course, is another thing that would be much easier to take care of if my second paragraph was reality.

And if we've learned anything from the world, it's that the 3 month summer vacation needs shit canned. From an educational sense, and from an infrastructure sense in regards to the use of buildings. I know all the teachers love their vacation - good for you, bad for the kid. Clearly.

There's good teachers out there. Immensly valuable to the country. But the unions have enabled a number of complacent, lousy ones as well. I see both sides of this, frankly, again, the utter disdain for the teaching profession by some in completely understandable. At the same time, the fact this is so, is really sad. We need good people to teach, and we're just not culling from as large a pool as we should be.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:41 am

Looking for the link to the data on exactly why many other countries like Japan have students much more advanced at math and science than here in the U.S., the bottom line of the report was simply, time. IIRC their students spend 1 hr more each day on those two specific subjects than their US counterparts, add that up over a year, then over a middle school education, HS education and....well you do the math.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:00 am

FUDU wrote:Looking for the link to the data on exactly why many other countries like Japan have students much more advanced at math and science than here in the U.S., the bottom line of the report was simply, time. IIRC their students spend 1 hr more each day on those two specific subjects than their US counterparts, add that up over a year, then over a middle school education, HS education and....well you do the math.


FUDU, to be clear, my rant was mutually exclusive of the report. As far as links go, I'm not a links guy, but that data isn't hard to find. We ARE failing in math and science in relation to other developed countries. And to your point about them spending an hour more per day over U.S. counterparts, well, I COULD do the math.

Or I could learn something from it. (See ixnaying the 3 month layoff)

Again, I have ne real beef here with much of anything that's been said. And the fact of the matter is, if someone believed in my rant it very well could be too late to do anything about it.

Lastly, a huge burden that the US public school system is carrying are the inner city schools. Money spent on dropout prevention, school lunches is staggering in itself. From an educational standpoint, ask any inner city teacher - ask a GREAT inner city teacher, how much time is allocated toward discipline. Then ask them out of the little time left in the day how much is allocated to simply pass the grade level proficiency test. Than see how much time is left to REALLY learn. All the while swimming upstream in these systems because soooo many parents don't give a shit about their child's education.

Not here to change anyone's point of view, didn't call so I could make up shocking numbers. Those numbers are pretty pedestrian compared to others you could uncover on a myriad of educational topics in regars to US vs. the world.. Just a guy, with a teaching degree, born in a city that had a great school system that now funds and contains a daycare and metal detectors, that has a three year old who will soon enter a hell of a mess.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:50 am

Lead my post was in no way meant as an opposition to your point, it just reminded me of something I read supporting such a reason for our drop off in stated areas of study. A lot of people don't realize that just a simple thing like time could have such a profound impact on results down the road.

I don't care what it is someone does in life, but if they do it an hour longer everyday of their life than most others chances are pretty good they will be better at it than most others as well.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:46 am

http://maciverinstitute.com/2010/03/ave ... -100kyear/

Average MPS Teacher Compensation Tops $100k/year
[Milwaukee, Wisconsin] MacIver News Service – For the first time in history, the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public School system will exceed $100,000.

That staggering figure was revealed last night at a meeting of the MPS School Board.

The average salary for an MPS teacher is $56,500. When fringe benefits are factored in, the annual compensation will be $100,005 in 2011.

MacIver’s Bill Osmulski has more in this video report.


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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby comish » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:20 pm

FUDU wrote:Related link about Ohio:

http://www.cleveland.com/obrien/index.ssf/2011/02/reminding_ohios_public_employe.html

FTR, on the notion of compensation, start with merit pay for everybody, be good at what you do or GTFO.

End.

Of.

Story.


Ok, but how ya going to do it?

From what I can glean from the 500 or so page monstrosity that is SB-5 (The bill that will be hotly debated in our home state that more or less mirrors Wiscy) they propose a merit system based on:

1. Licensure/Level of Education and being Highly Qualified (HQT)

This is basically the case NOW. Teachers in our district can move over on the pay scale based on the level of education they have. They can earn more in between degree levels as well (BA+ 30, Masters +15, etc)

The Local Professional Development Committees work with admin to make sure all teachers keep current their licensure and are HQT when taking a job.

So no biggie...I'm good with that.

Here's where they start to lose me:

2. Evaluations
We all get evaluated in what we do. I'm sure most of you have some boss that peaks in from time to time and either gives you a thumbs up or lays some ludicrous edict on you that sounded good in the board room, but just doesn't work in reality. And I'm sure every so often you have to go sit with said suit and get a performance evaluation. Some of you may work under one of these such people that is just IMPOSSIBLE to get along with...this is reality. In 15 years of teaching I've had good and bad admins...scares the crap out of me to think their evals of me would have a direct effect on my wallet, but so be it, I can live with this if I had to.

However, here's where it falls apart

THEY CAN'T GET OUT OF THE FREAKING OFFICE! The person I work under now, who is excellent BTW, spends his entire day dealing with phone calls and discipline. Poor guy doesn't have a snow balls chance in hell of putting in the observation time required to do a proper eval, might as well handcuff him to the desk. So who does the eval then? An outside source? Do districts have to add another administrator (or 5) whose sole responsibility is to observe teachers? Ok, but you just probably added a quarter to half a mil to the yearly budget. Is this even a fair way to evaluate? A one time snap shot of a teacher doing a lesson?

The only person truly qualified to evaluate me is the poor guy who spends his entire day putting out fires in the office.

(It's gotten so bad in our large district that principals don't even really bother with tenured teachers so they can concentrate on non-tenured ones..not because they are lazy...THEY DON'T HAVE TIME!)

BUNK

3. (This is the one that has me cackling hysterically) Value Added (Standardized Test Scores)

I will admit that I think NCLB (No Child Left Behind) and its aftermath have raised the bar for many in the profession and in some ways have made us much better. I ALSO think it has harmed education for some of the reasons mentioned in a previous post above.

Be that as it may it is ludicrous to tie my family’s fortunes to a one time (or even multiple times) high stakes test taken by children, in some cases little children.

To do it using Value Added methods is better than just looking at pass/fail, but it is still extremely flawed.

Here is where all of you business blokes fail epically when comparing what you do, to what schools do. Each of you is involved in making a product or providing a service. You have direct control of how your job is performed and the quality of service or product you produce. I DON’T. I might be God’s gift to teaching, but in the end, when it’s test time…I don’t take the test…somebody else does, in my case little somebodies. I have indirect control of how they do.

For example: Student comes in on test day crying. Mom cracked their rear before they left because they got into a fight with their sib. Child is in meltdown mode, never recovers, and tanks the test. This child was prepared, they are a good student, but at that moment, on this test, they couldn’t perform. This has nothing to do with me, yet my finances should be tied to this?

The above scenario, or something like it, has happened more than once. I’ve had kids refuse to answer any questions at all for one reason or another…nothing I can do about it.

Where else in the world would this INDIRECT CONTROL be a factor to dictate how much money a professional makes, particularly a professional with a college degree…and even a Master’s Degree?

Ridiculous

There are more reasons why basing teacher pay on this value added measure is folly, but THAT one is the easiest to explain to non educators.

I have negotiated for my teacher’s union for over a decade, and I certainly take issue with some of the other comments in this thread, but I’ll save it for some other time….I have a long weekend to go enjoy

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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:06 pm

Some valid points comish, I'll try to address a few in the next day or so. While it might not be easy to institute a compensation system based on merit it still can be done.

All in all the one standing point in this whole thread and on going debate IRL is simply: tax payers do not want to hear these "professionals" complaints about wages & benefits when those wages and benefits are in fact reasonable to begin with and COME from the pockets of said tax payers, the exact same tax payers that these professionals are complaining to about wanting more.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby comish » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:04 pm

FUDU wrote:Some valid points comish, I'll try to address a few in the next day or so. While it might not be easy to institute a compensation system based on merit it still can be done.

All in all the one standing point in this whole thread and on going debate IRL is simply: tax payers do not want to hear these "professionals" complaints about wages & benefits when those wages and benefits are in fact reasonable to begin with and COME from the pockets of said tax payers, the exact same tax payers that these professionals are complaining to about wanting more.


No worries, my friend, love to hear what you think on the merit system, but GL...it's a monster of a problem IMO.

I am NOT complaining about my pay or my benefits, and never have!

Look, I've held MY OWN UNION PEEPS at bay over how much they pay in bennies, we have a good deal, but for myself and probably a whole lot of others in my field, that's why we got in.

Let me bust a misconception out there (Yes FMB I'm talking to you!)

I could have done ANYTHING! I got into teaching because I like the idea of inspiring young minds, and I have the creative ability to do just that.

Don't get me wrong, I ALSO got into this field because I knew the bennies were outstanding, and of course there is that whole summer off thingy.

I could have gone to law school, I could have gone to med school, yes I've got both clubs in the bag, but I CHOSE education for the reasons above....and now I get screwed?

Rubbish!
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:23 pm

I've worked in a merit pay system, one in which as close to 100% as possible of my pay was based upon me myself and I. It's educational to say the least, not to mention motivating AND refreshing in an intellectually honesty kind of way. But my POV on the topic would be a bit subjective b/c of the fact I've worked in that setting.

Implementing one for teachers is definitely a tough go, but some sort of system in which things are met half way is doable for sure. I'd agree that it would be foolish to try to use student results as significant weight in such a system. However I think there are some things that could be evaluated fairly, like quality of work in terms of lesson planning (a plan that could be used by any qualified teacher that walked in the door if one was say absent, also creativity and innovation in there planning and teaching methods).

In regards to students, there are simply too many variables that are tied into evaluating their end results, God given brains, self motivation, home life and parents for sure.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby comish » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:44 pm

FUDU wrote:I've worked in a merit pay system, one in which as close to 100% as possible of my pay was based upon me myself and I. It's educational to say the least, not to mention motivating AND refreshing in an intellectually honesty kind of way. But my POV on the topic would be a bit subjective b/c of the fact I've worked in that setting.

Implementing one for teachers is definitely a tough go, but some sort of system in which things are met half way is doable for sure. I'd agree that it would be foolish to try to use student results as significant weight in such a system. However I think there are some things that could be evaluated fairly, like quality of work in terms of lesson planning (a plan that could be used by any qualified teacher that walked in the door if one was say absent, also creativity and innovation in there planning and teaching methods).

In regards to students, there are simply too many variables that are tied into evaluating their end results, God given brains, self motivation, home life and parents for sure.


Come on, FUDU, you are smarter than that:

Any idiot can put together a comprehensive LESSON PLAN. Do you really want to make that an indicator in how much I get paid? Cool! I can BS with the best of them :clap:

Merit is just a non-starter for education...PERIOD

Show me ONE state that has shown you success using merit and I will show you ATLANTIS

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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:08 pm

I believe the reports that merit pay doesn't motivate those in the teaching profession, but is that due to fear of having to work for their money, or is it due to something else?

I'm only half joking.

Merit pay scares most people.

But as I said right off the bat on this topic, this pits one citizen against another, that doesn't help in reaching a long term solution.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby comish » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:23 pm

FUDU wrote:I believe the reports that merit pay doesn't motivate those in the teaching profession, but is that due to fear of having to work for their money, or is it due to something else?

I'm only half joking.

Merit pay scares most people.

But as I said right off the bat on this topic, this pits one citizen against another, that doesn't help in reaching a long term solution.


Motivation isn't the problem...it (Merit Pay) hasn't been proven to work ANYWHERE as far as schools are concerned (based on test scores).

If somebody can figure out how to do it in the educational theater intelligently, BRING IT, I aint scared :guns:
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:15 am

Let me bust a misconception out there (Yes FMB I'm talking to you!)

I could have done ANYTHING! I got into teaching because I like the idea of inspiring young minds, and I have the creative ability to do just that.

Don't get me wrong, I ALSO got into this field because I knew the bennies were outstanding, and of course there is that whole summer off thingy.

I could have gone to law school, I could have gone to med school, yes I've got both clubs in the bag, but I CHOSE education for the reasons above....and now I get screwed?


Bwah!

Everybody gets screwed at one time or another. Take your lumps with the rest of society and quit yir crying..... it is tho what I expect from a group that thinks themselves more special than the rest of us

I got into my field because I love it, am beholden to no one but my customers and my income ceiling is limited only by my deires.

My work commands top dollar in my field based on results and when teachers start playing by the same rules as the REAL PROFESSIONL world, them I'll relent

FWIW, I know there are good teachers out there who deserve what they make....but, after having myself, 3 sons and 3 grankids going thru a total of 4 systems and somehwere in the neighborhood of 15 schools, I'm sick of the whining as well as the union protection of the slugs totally in it for the gravy train and who don''t give a rats ass about the kids or their education...clean your own house first before asking the public to just keep throwing money at you because.....you're teachers

You and Erie are NOT! the norm if indeed you are what you would like us to believe. None of us really knows and we can only take your word for it but, at the same time, I have freinds who are teachers, nice guys, who spew the same tripe when I know they're a useless POS in the classroom

...and FTR, one of my sons is married to a teacher and another has a BS in mathmatics from MIT and a Masters and Doctorate from U-Dub. I know the value of a good education...when its offered

I'm also privy to the fact that after a Master degree, pay increases are based on continuing education classes that would make the UNLV basketball program blush

Teachers as a group are the biggest bunch of whining crybabies in America and seeing them act like fools on the streets of Wisconsin only reaffirms my beliefs
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby comish » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:36 am

You make some fair points, FMB.

I won't lie, I've WORKED with some of the slugs you refer to...they infuriate me.

It's not the union that really protects most of them, it's the inability of their principals to follow procedure to get rid of them...it can be done, it just takes time, a trail of paper, and a determined admin....in many of the cases I've been involved in, the union knows they suck too, and stand the hell out of the way as long as the admin follows the correct steps.

And gym teachers? Possibly the best non-entertainment job in the history of the world. I'm quite jealous of those folks.

Again, I have NO PROBLEM being held accountable to the people who employ me (the public) But how? I'm telling you it's nearly impossible, and even illogical in the field of education.

You won't have to look as far as Wiscy....it will be spilling into the streets of O.H.I.O. very very soon.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:52 am

FUDU wrote:I believe the reports that merit pay doesn't motivate those in the teaching profession, but is that due to fear of having to work for their money, or is it due to something else?


I would also add awarding pay based on test scores will lead to academic dishonesty. For example NCLB is requiring 100% (an unattainable number, but that's for another conversation) passing in Math and Reading by 2014.

In my 2nd Block class I have 2 Korean ESL students, one who just arrived and can only say hello, 2 other kids with IEPs that read at about a 6th grade level, and one 20 year old who is a great kid (man, I guess) but doesn't have the brain power everyone else does. That's 5 students who legitimately won't pass the test, regardless of my ability.

If my mortgage is dependent on their success, I'm finding another job or cheating to save my family. If I can choose my students, then load me up with score-based incentives. If I have to take them all, then merit-based pay is unfair.

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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby comish » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:22 am

Half joked with my principal that if the merit pay element makes its way into law I want to hold a student draft. I'm most senior...I get first pick :thumb up:

The NFL combine will have nothing compared to what I'll put those little darlings through before draft day (flex)

I can come up with 1,000s of scenarios where merit doesn't work and would be unfair in education. I wonder if the Wiscy bill has that in there too? I'm betting it does.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:54 pm

FUDU wrote:I've worked in a merit pay system,



Is getting a piping hot pizza to a stoner in < 30 minutes really germane to this issue, FUDU? ;-)

The solution is simple.

Close all public libraries and put the money into schools. Public libraries are the real waste of money. You could buy a kindle for every man, woman and chile who wants one for what goes to libraries. They are a completely obsolete concept we can no longer afford. It'd be like tax payers subsizing a public VHS rental store and the employees all insisting they needed masters degrees and be compensated accordingly as "professionals" to recommend movies.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:08 pm

^ :thumb up:
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:45 pm

You're right about the libraries, although the thought of them going away makes me kind of sad.

But how much money are we talking about? Would it be enough to even make a small dent?
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:50 pm

Well MoScra I guess were talking about a lot and nothing.

My only real points are that we're in a decline of wealth and the ability to spend and what we had isn't what we can sustain. The tipping point has hit state governments. Needs are gonna redefine wants.

I think there is still a role for central libraries as repositories. But community libraries are a huge anacronism we can no longer afford.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby danwismar » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:57 pm

jb wrote:Well MoScra I guess were talking about a lot and nothing.

My only real points are that we're in a decline of wealth and the ability to spend and what we had isn't what we can sustain. The tipping point has hit state governments. Needs are gonna redefine wants.

I think there is still a role for central libraries as repositories. But community libraries are a huge anacronism we can no longer afford.


Let the record show my total agreement with JB. It may be a drop in the bucket, but it's a drop. Public resources are scarce, and they have alternative uses. Lots of decisions more difficult than this one are coming.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:07 pm

jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:I've worked in a merit pay system,



Is getting a piping hot pizza to a stoner in < 30 minutes really germane to this issue, FUDU? ;-)

The solution is simple.

Close all public libraries and put the money into schools. Public libraries are the real waste of money. You could buy a kindle for every man, woman and chile who wants one for what goes to libraries. They are a completely obsolete concept we can no longer afford. It'd be like tax payers subsizing a public VHS rental store and the employees all insisting they needed masters degrees and be compensated accordingly as "professionals" to recommend movies.


Clearly clueless post.

Libraries are busier than ever. Their services are in demand now more than ever. It's always axiomatic that the worse the economy gets, the busier a library gets.

To address one factoid from the idiocy -- my library's budget would buy ~22,300 Kindles. Meanwhile, we circulate a million items a year. We serve a city of approximately ~50K.

I'm sure you'll come back with some frothing at the mouth about DVDs. OK, let's get rid of those from my library. You just saved 100K. That's about 2% of our budget.

Of course, you haven't addressed how the people who get the free Kindles are supposed to put material on them. "They'll have to pay for it," you'll say. But your entire premise is based on the fact that with the tax money that goes to the library would provide people with the same service the library provides by giving them the Kindle.

I'm certain that libraries will take a hit in this budget, just like they did in the last budget, and just like they've been taking for the last decade. They'll take the hits and provide exemplary service as they have for years and years. Yet libraries are busier than ever. Their services are more in demand than ever. And support for them is as strong as ever, as shown in local library levy results over the past year and a half.

Libraries are used as community meeting places for many groups, as computer resources, as places for children to enjoy programs, as research facilities, and as a source for pleasure reading and of course the thing that you look down your nose on, a place for people to check out DVDs.

When you have actual solutions and arguments, provide them. So far you're just showing your contempt for people you think you are better than.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:10 pm

The only thing a library provides is for pervs to get free internet access to porn and the ability to give themselves a public OTPHJ.

Open up the school libraries on the weekends to the public. Seems like a fair amount of redundancy there. My school system for instance had 4 libraries and a public library. To think those can't be condensed is ridiculous. But yes, a very small drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. Baby steps though, baby steps.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:11 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:I've worked in a merit pay system,



Is getting a piping hot pizza to a stoner in < 30 minutes really germane to this issue, FUDU? ;-)

The solution is simple.

Close all public libraries and put the money into schools. Public libraries are the real waste of money. You could buy a kindle for every man, woman and chile who wants one for what goes to libraries. They are a completely obsolete concept we can no longer afford. It'd be like tax payers subsizing a public VHS rental store and the employees all insisting they needed masters degrees and be compensated accordingly as "professionals" to recommend movies.


Clearly clueless post.

Libraries are busier than ever. Their services are in demand now more than ever. It's always axiomatic that the worse the economy gets, the busier a library gets.

To address one factoid from the idiocy -- my library's budget would buy ~22,300 Kindles. Meanwhile, we circulate a million items a year. We serve a city of approximately ~50K.

I'm sure you'll come back with some frothing at the mouth about DVDs. OK, let's get rid of those from my library. You just saved 100K. That's about 2% of our budget.

Of course, you haven't addressed how the people who get the free Kindles are supposed to put material on them. "They'll have to pay for it," you'll say. But your entire premise is based on the fact that with the tax money that goes to the library would provide people with the same service the library provides by giving them the Kindle.

I'm certain that libraries will take a hit in this budget, just like they did in the last budget, and just like they've been taking for the last decade. They'll take the hits and provide exemplary service as they have for years and years. Yet libraries are busier than ever. Their services are more in demand than ever. And support for them is as strong as ever, as shown in local library levy results over the past year and a half.

Libraries are used as community meeting places for many groups, as computer resources, as places for children to enjoy programs, as research facilities, and as a source for pleasure reading and of course the thing that you look down your nose on, a place for people to check out DVDs.

When you have actual solutions and arguments, provide them. So far you're just showing your contempt for people you think you are better than.


Wow. WTF dude? That was angry.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:16 pm

This is exactly how things work though. He clearly uses the library and wants everyone else to fund his library. Everything at the library can easily be purchased on the open market, but shit if you only pay 1/500000th of it why the hell would you want to do that.

That is the issue with cutting. This isn't to single him out. People who use National Parks all the time certainly don't want funding cut for that, people who collect SS don't want their benefits to be lessened, people who use public transportation don't want funding for that to be taken away because their costs would go up. The end of the line is near, things must change. We are broke.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:24 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:When you have actual solutions and arguments, provide them. So far you're just showing your contempt for people you think you are better than.



Just because a ham sammich could check out books and refile them doesn't mean I think any less of library employees.

So you could buy 22K Kindles for a town of 50K? Sounds like an awesome trade off to me. You'd probably have 5K left if you just asked how many people actually wanted them.

When a library levvy fails, do you know what those morons do in Mahoning County? They lesson the already bankeresque hours. They don't do a damn thing more with less. They don't even try. They hav ethat same F U attitude you do on this subject.

There is a reason Borders went bankrupt last week. And in 5 years no one will know what a DVD is anmore than a 5 1/4 floppy disk. But sure, let's keep paying for something that is obsolete that closes at 7PM and 5PM on weekends. If people are lonely they can go to a mall.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:27 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Wow. WTF dude? That was angry.



Meh.

It's NHB'd. I defend hs right to roll that way. Which is a lot less restrictive than my public library's stupid internet usage policies. bada bing

This librarian doesn't want to lose his job. Like EW says, no one wants to give up money. I get that.

And Ziner is right. People are going to have to get used to user fees and stop going appoplectic when their sacred cow gets gored.

We are broke.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby mistero » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:42 pm

And Ziner is right. People are going to have to get used to user fees and stop going appoplectic when their sacred cow gets gored.

Sounds like the cuts need to be in multiple areas ....services and entitlements.

School budgets, libraries, public transportation, unemployment, welfare, pensions, animal wardens, building inspectors, parks and rec, and parades.

What can we afford? Roads, police,fire. That's about it.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:48 pm

Borders obviously went bankrupt because of its union employees.
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