No Holds Barred

by **FUDU** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:37 pm

Anything to be legitimately concerned with, or SSDD & just something else to blame a rise in oil prices on?

Glass shrink wrap on the "who" federal building down town? Sounds like an excuse to spend money, but if it legit it could be interesting in the "we have nothing else going on" kind of way. Waste collection costs going up, life altering sewer bills on the way, but hey let's seal up the federal building, who the fuck runs this town Montgomery Burns?

by **Orenthal** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:06 pm

How does the Federal Government spending money on their building = Cleveland anything? Unless you think they would have instead used that money to subsidize your trash collection or sewer bill.

by **FUDU** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:10 pm

Orenthal wrote:How does the Federal Government spending money on their building = Cleveland anything? Unless you think they would have instead used that money to subsidize your trash collection or sewer bill.

Honest question, CTown has no financial responsibility to that piece of property/building? I was under the assumption we did, if not then fine. Now my concern is how quick the damn place catches on fire and burns the city down, b/c when the feds do something it is usually done wrong.

by **Orenthal** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:16 pm

I worked there, and left just as they were starting the "facelift" of the surrounding plaza. The building is a 70's shithole. The "modern era" sucked, and most 'scrapers from the 60's and 70's now look like shit.

Either way your points of it being a waste of money, and the city of Cleveland being ignorant of bringing in new business and taxing the shit out of current business/citizens stands.

I guess the GSA needed to spend stimulus dollars b4 deadline (better spend it or we won't get a larger appropriation next year) and what better way then for "environmental" reasons that would never be done without being subsidized.

http://www.cleveland.com/arts/index.ssf ... on_in.html

by jb » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:48 am

Seriously FUDU? Look at he camera Donny, look at the camera.

Read the PD archetectural piece on the project. The building has pieces falling off it and this is by by far the most cost effective solution, plus it literally pays for itself over time and keeps hundreds of good paying jobs in C-town. And before you pile on thyat they are federal jobs and boo hoo you don't have one, the servicemen and women have to get paid. May as well do that from here. A waste of money would be a new building in that area of downtown. Lastly, this is an innovative archtectural solution and will be a model on this side of the pond.

But yeah, it is affiliated with the gub-mint, so let's trash it brainlessly without a singel fact. God I love me some internets. Clear instance of bitch to bitch. You guys fuckin' kill me. No wonder I'm not even bothering with the SOTU thread so I don't screw my head into the ceiling at the ignorance.

Yes OJ, I don't like the modern era either, but this is far better than a new building, and frankly, I don't care what it looks like inside as a taxpayer. But outside, it is near the new CC / MM , so it should look as good as it can within cost.

And BTW - downtown is quietly poised for its biggest rennaisance since the mid-80's. There is an absolute shitload of major projects coming together over the next 2 - 3 years. But again, fuck da fax.

Re: Egypt...

You are about to see how GD dumb the neo-cons were in their grand delusions. In the mid-east, what they think of as western "democracy" will = a monolithic pan Islamic theocracy. This is gonna be very, very bad. I expect this wave to flow to the peninsula to the royal family.

Bset case is if we can get new thugzz who are friendly to us at least nominally behind the scenes.

Get ready for $ 5.00 / gallon gas by Memorial day.

by **FUDU** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:51 pm

Not a bitch to btich, as my question stated I made the assumption (a fairly reasonable one in the real world) that Ctown had some liability in it. But you keep on thinking our arrow is pointing up if it makes you feel better. We are still closer to being Detroit than we are to being Cleveland circa 1995. Better to make the building nice than not but it will not make a difference in the grand scheme of population decline and no niche in the business world, unless you need a by pass or have pnuemonia.

Eygpt schmegypt, gas was on its way to $3.75 already. Feel bad for the people bc nobody cares.

by **Orenthal** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:55 pm

Agree with JB on the angent point. Those are "needed" government jobs. The majority of the people there are DFAS and their function helps support National Defense.

On Egypt I think tying "neo-con" to this is too centrist. How about the fact the live under a Compassionate Dictator? Corruption, unemployement, and the fact Mubarek hasn't had a VP for 31 years may be a bigger part of the problem.

Obama playing both sides of the fence in foriegn uprising? Never saw that before. He is getting judged on this just like Iran. Too slow, too naive.

by jb » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:05 pm

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Barry on Egypt is as relevant as C-town pro sports on the national scene.

He means nothing.

90% of this is casue he's a lightweight. 10% is cause the mid east knows we shot our geopolitical wad and we's too broke to do anythying on a meaningful scale.

Then again, this is like the French Revolution of the mid east potentially.

This shit isn't hitting the fan until it reaches the peninsula. Then the oil men will rise up and we'll occupy that shit before SA goes islamic populist free of the royal family, Barry or no Barry. Then ww3 will be on, we'll finally overextend ourselves fatally and the era of the usa will be over. It'll be a great big Sicily and we're athens.

But you miss the point about the neo-con stupidity. From a selfish American POV the best thing self interest wise was friendly thuggz we, or in the case of Egypt the other side, could buy off. Why do you think Nassar got whacked years ago? "Democracy" can't exist there. Those medievil cultures want western style democracy based on enlightened values like I want to eat boiled brussell sprouts 3 sqaures a day. What will occur when you remove brutal dictators is populist islamicist theocratic states who want to nuke us. Taking out Saddam as the single strongest secular influence bleize the region and make crazy Iran the hegimon was freakin' brilliant.

You seem to mistake me for someone who cares about the living conditoins and human rights of the mid east. I'm a selfish American, not a bleeding heart.

Don't forget the JB Doctrine: You can't help those too ignorant to take your help.

by **Orenthal** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:39 am

Okay I'll just ignore the part that isolates neo-cons causing something that has been American policy since Thomas Jefferson.

On the broader point of democracy I agree. If they want it they have to do it themselves. No amount of Compassionate Conservatism or Bleeding Heart Guilt will make it happen. The fact they are using social networks to organize multiple countries makes this pretty big. Our response is important, because at this point it does not seem Islamist driven.

How Barry handles this is important, it is fast pushing Iraq and Afghanistan tino the background.

Egypt, Tunisa, Lebenon, and Yemen so far...

Think Albania is having its own problems too.

by **Orenthal** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:39 am

Oh and btw...

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2011/01/tuni ... -to-egypt/

by **FUDU** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:36 pm

This is a tough spot for Obama, but he wanted the job so...

Besides his hair was already starting to grey a little, this should speed up the process. He/We need to observe this from a far but be ready to respond in talks quickly if necessary. I mean Egypt doesn't make or have anything we don't besides mysterious and unexplainable architecture.... so drill baby drill, and keep chipping away at alternative energy. The sooner we can stop worrying about the fucks in the rest of the world the better.

by **danwismar** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:37 pm

Speaking of Jefferson....best thing I think I can do here is to recommend a wonderful book I read a year or two ago that increased many fold my understanding of our country's involvement in the region. Cannot praise it highly enough as readable and informative.

"Power, Faith, and Fantasy: America in the Middle East 1776-Present"

by Michael B. Oren

http://amzn.to/hN91SE

by **Orenthal** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:54 pm

http://www.amazon.com/Jeffersons-War-Am ... 846&sr=8-1

Another good read on the subject. That damn neo-con Jefferson.

by **danwismar** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:08 pm

Orenthal wrote:http://www.amazon.com/Jeffersons-War-Americas-Terror-1801-1805/dp/0786714042/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1296420846&sr=8-1

Another good read on the subject. That damn neo-con Jefferson.

Thanks for that. Oren has an excellent section on the Barbary Wars too. And the piracy is still going on, turns out...just on a different section of the African coast.

I'm always surprised when I run across people who don't know where we got the word barbarian.

by **FUDU** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:08 am

No disrespect in the regards to a patriot such as Jefferson (or those who refer to his writings), but IMO his words have finite value in today's world simply b/c he spoke at such a different time, and with no disrespect to him there is no way that guy was smarter/wiser than anyone else today simply b/c he had almost zero clue about what the world today would be like.

Plenty of what he said once can still apply but let's be brutally honest, he didn't live in times any where similar to ours. Whether in regards to technology, foreign affairs or scales of economy etc, the guy knew as much about our lives today on January 29th 2011 as any living 10 year old today does, about today or 2033.

No ATM's.
No cars or modern transportation.
No global reach of terrorizing religious fanatics (if you believe in that stuff).
No smart bombs, no dumb bombs either.
No teachers unions.
No income tax.
No entitlements just b/c.
No 24/7 anything.
No Hoover Dam.
No Mount Rushmore.

by **Ziner** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:51 am

For JB

http://nation.foxnews.com/chris-matthew ... uipped-han

Matthews, Andrea Mitchell and a dude from the NYT tell JB to pipe down with the neo-con trash talk. Seems as if it is a backhanded way to really call the neo-cons the "realists".

I get the strong feelings that history is going to show Bush was out in front of this while the Democrats, Obama, and JB were not forward thinking enough.

As well, I will guess that if democracies spread like wildfire across the Middle East, Bush will get no credit from anyone. I will admit that there is some element of this that is like playing with fire, but it isnt as if there was a likely way to be out in front and stop it. Obama needs to be on top of this and finagle pro-American (or even neutral) leader(s) in the position of power

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:55 am

Democracy? Like how we have it? A brainless dickless group of rich morons who could fuck up a ham sandwich?

Oh god I hope so.

That way they get the real freedom of watching sluts on The Jeddah Shore.

And yes, we all know we invaded Iraq to "spread democracy", or whatever bullshit rewrite of history they can come up with now. First democracy, then NFL football and wet t-shirt contests. We're almost there.

Ziner...... how much longer are you going to try to polish that turd? Shit...... the political climate of Boulder must be hell for you, so i'm sorry, i'll send you some Turtle Wax and a SHAMWOW! Just for you.

by **FUDU** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:07 pm

Ziner wrote:For JB

http://nation.foxnews.com/chris-matthew ... uipped-han

Matthews, Andrea Mitchell and a dude from the NYT tell JB to pipe down with the neo-con trash talk. Seems as if it is a backhanded way to really call the neo-cons the "realists".

I get the strong feelings that history is going to show Bush was out in front of this while the Democrats, Obama, and JB were not forward thinking enough.

As well, I will guess that if democracies spread like wildfire across the Middle East, Bush will get no credit from anyone. I will admit that there is some element of this that is like playing with fire, but it isnt as if there was a likely way to be out in front and stop it. Obama needs to be on top of this and finagle pro-American (or even neutral) leader(s) in the position of power

Democracy spreading like wild fires wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing Ziner. But pushing democracy on people is a bit socialistic no, how ironic.

Obama and pro-American in the same sentence, now that is some funny shit right there.

by **exiledbuckeye** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:48 pm

Please, Thomas Jefferson was no "great thinker" and we do not have a democracy - we have a "constitutional republic". Just ask the Texas Board of Education.

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/12/texas-removes-thomas-jefferson-from-teaching-standard/

by **Erie Warrior** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:42 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Democracy? Like how we have it? A brainless dickless group of rich morons who could fuck up a ham sandwich? Oh god I hope so. That way they get the real freedom of watching sluts on The Jeddah Shore.

^^^Fantastic.

And Israel is shitting their pants about now, no? "Spreading Democracy" is a euphemism for you have something we want. Modern day crusades- sign up your children now.

by **Rat_Tail** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:48 pm

jb wrote:A waste of money would be a new building in that area of downtown.

What's wrong with a new building? Just about every city but Cleveland is putting up new buildings. I wanna see something taller than Key Tower.

"If you build it, they will come?"

Still waiting for a Taco Bell too.

by **Larvell Blanks** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:28 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:
jb wrote:A waste of money would be a new building in that area of downtown.

What's wrong with a new building? Just about every city but Cleveland is putting up new buildings. I wanna see something taller than Key Tower.

"If you build it, they will come?"

Still waiting for a Taco Bell too.

Just about every city also hasn't priced business out of downtown. Look at the number of companies that annually leave downtown for cheaper digs out in the 'burbs. Building a tall building just ain't enough, city and county gubment need to offer businesses incentives to lure them back down. A pretty view of the lake or industrial Flats just ain't enough. Our lease is up in the Huntington Bldg in Oct and the new owners have made no effort to let us know what their plans are for the building or offer us space. We had/have no choice but to look elsewhere.

Taco Bell/KFC is in Tower City, which is pretty empty tenant wise as well.

by **Rat_Tail** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:08 pm

Larvell Blanks wrote:
Rat_Tail wrote:Just about every city also hasn't priced business out of downtown. Look at the number of companies that annually leave downtown for cheaper digs out in the 'burbs. Building a tall building just ain't enough, city and county gubment need to offer businesses incentives to lure them back down. A pretty view of the lake or industrial Flats just ain't enough. Our lease is up in the Huntington Bldg in Oct and the new owners have made no effort to let us know what their plans are for the building or offer us space. We had/have no choice but to look elsewhere.

Taco Bell/KFC is in Tower City, which is pretty empty tenant wise as well.

No Taco Bell in Tower City (which is where it should be). My friend and I have went in every building in Cleveland hoping to find a "hidden" one somewhere.

And Huntington is moving into the BP building.

by **Orenthal** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:14 pm

FUDU wrote:No ATM's.
No cars or modern transportation.
No global reach of terrorizing religious fanatics (if you believe in that stuff).
No smart bombs, no dumb bombs either.
No teachers unions.
No income tax.
No entitlements just b/c.
No 24/7 anything.
No Hoover Dam.
No Mount Rushmore.

This whole list is just silly. If you had read anything about the Barbary Wars or had a clue about the foriegn policy of that time, you would at the very least compiled a different list. The whole post is a non-starter.

by **Orenthal** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:19 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Democracy? Like how we have it? A brainless dickless group of rich morons who could fuck up a ham sandwich? Oh god I hope so. That way they get the real freedom of watching sluts on The Jeddah Shore.

^^^Fantastic.

And Israel is shitting their pants about now, no? "Spreading Democracy" is a euphemism for you have something we want. Modern day crusades- sign up your children now.

I don't want to be an arrogant ass in terms of how Egyptians feel, but the "guy on the street" style interviews our media are doing are no better the Jay Walking on the Leno show. Some lady spent 2 minutes say they don't like Isreal. IMO, and again I am just a citizen of The Great Satan, but isn't Mubarek the problem? Unless Isreal is keeping him in power. I usually don't go with the most complicated conspiracy thinking.

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:20 pm

FUDU wrote:Democracy spreading like wild fires wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing Ziner. But pushing democracy on people is a bit socialistic no, how ironic.

Obama and pro-American in the same sentence, now that is some funny shit right there.

lol. What a maroon. Yeah that Obama is so anti-American. Burning flags and lighting blunts with the Constitution.

Lets say "democracy" does spread..... what the fuck are you going to do when they ELECT some Wahabist or other Islamatard faction? Hell the Mongolians voted back the Communist party. What if you end up with something worse than what they had before?

Iran elected a guy...... we backed the coup and end result was the Shah fleeing for his life and the Islamic Revolution taking control. And good 'ole Augusto Pinochet..... that worked out well.

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:26 pm

Orenthal wrote:
Erie Warrior wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Democracy? Like how we have it? A brainless dickless group of rich morons who could fuck up a ham sandwich? Oh god I hope so. That way they get the real freedom of watching sluts on The Jeddah Shore.

^^^Fantastic.

And Israel is shitting their pants about now, no? "Spreading Democracy" is a euphemism for you have something we want. Modern day crusades- sign up your children now.

I don't want to be an arrogant ass in terms of how Egyptians feel, but the "guy on the street" style interviews our media are doing are no better the Jay Walking on the Leno show. Some lady spent 2 minutes say they don't like Isreal. IMO, and again I am just a citizen of The Great Satan, but isn't Mubarek the problem? Unless Isreal is keeping him in power. I usually don't go with the most complicated conspiracy thinking.

I think Arabs are just programed to rail on Israel when they see a camera. I'm not really familiar with Israeli/Egypt relations.

by **Orenthal** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:26 pm

^The lesser of 2 evils doesn't always work out in the end. Foreign policy is a bitch like that. Talking Egypt specific here, I think you have to roll with the "street". IMO they own the moral high ground. Our mission should be to find "our type" of leader in that group, and not allow a vacuum to be filled by Islamists. Once they institute their style of government, we're kinda out of control.

The puppet system hasn't worked out to well for us in the past. In a perfect world, my world, we colonize and steal resources, but no one seems a fan of that style anymore. Bunch of babies.

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:34 pm

I'd love for Egypt to adpot a Secular Democracy, but honestly i'm no exactly sure what the Egyptians want...... i'm not sure they know. I just don't think it's in the cards.

by **Orenthal** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:43 pm

^Which is why I think its better to let it play out. Rather not have the heavy hand and be in a no win situation due to being the Great Satan. Sorry Obama, but this is a tough one to win on, and it is probably going to wind up being bigger then Iraq/Afghanistan.

I'm fully wait and see on the whole thing, including Obama. His move to the center, and a win here, could seal a second term.

by **Erie Warrior** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:55 pm

Orenthal wrote: but isn't Mubarek the problem?

I was under the impression the average Egyptian was not a fan of Israel, but Mubarak was keeping the peace. But I'm with you, let them figure it out. As long as they keep the museum and antiquities in tact, as I'd really like to see them one day. I bet flights are real cheap there right now.

EDIT: Yep, Israel is soiling themselves as we speak
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Isr ... 59904.html

by **Larvell Blanks** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:34 am

Rat_Tail wrote:
Larvell Blanks wrote:
Rat_Tail wrote:Just about every city also hasn't priced business out of downtown. Look at the number of companies that annually leave downtown for cheaper digs out in the 'burbs. Building a tall building just ain't enough, city and county gubment need to offer businesses incentives to lure them back down. A pretty view of the lake or industrial Flats just ain't enough. Our lease is up in the Huntington Bldg in Oct and the new owners have made no effort to let us know what their plans are for the building or offer us space. We had/have no choice but to look elsewhere.

Taco Bell/KFC is in Tower City, which is pretty empty tenant wise as well.

No Taco Bell in Tower City (which is where it should be). My friend and I have went in every building in Cleveland hoping to find a "hidden" one somewhere.

And Huntington is moving into the BP building.

My bad, it's been over a year since I've been to TC. TB/KFC used to be in the far corner of the food court.

Yes Huntington is moving to BP building but there are 20 floors of other businesses that use the building. Ernst & Young and Tucker, Ellis and West are eventually moving to the Flats East Bank project. There are other businesses whose future is up in the air. Our Agency alone takes up the entire 5th floor and a half of the 6th, so we're not some little fish that will have to make do. No one, including the new owners, know what they're going to do with the building. Rumor is they want to maintain a mix of office space + residential or a hotel + residential. However in this economic climate, is it worth it to invest all that coin in renovations with so much uncertainty looming?

by **Ziner** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:56 am

Probably should have had these as two separate threads...sorry to interrupt the Taco Bell talk.

Since we have heard so much about the Muslim Brotherhood I decided to check their website out. If you have some time they have quite a few opinion pieces that are quite enlightening concerning the US/Arab world relations.

Here are a few I thought to be interesting. If you can find the time and care to understand more about it they really are worth it.

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=27808

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=27876

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=27932

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=27821

by jb » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:00 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:
Larvell Blanks wrote:
Rat_Tail wrote:Just about every city also hasn't priced business out of downtown. Look at the number of companies that annually leave downtown for cheaper digs out in the 'burbs. Building a tall building just ain't enough, city and county gubment need to offer businesses incentives to lure them back down. A pretty view of the lake or industrial Flats just ain't enough. Our lease is up in the Huntington Bldg in Oct and the new owners have made no effort to let us know what their plans are for the building or offer us space. We had/have no choice but to look elsewhere.

Taco Bell/KFC is in Tower City, which is pretty empty tenant wise as well.

No Taco Bell in Tower City (which is where it should be). My friend and I have went in every building in Cleveland hoping to find a "hidden" one somewhere.

And Huntington is moving into the BP building.

It got replaced by the 45th Urban Wear store to open with a 4 month lifespan.

Rat, just sayin not a fan of the government spedning hundreds of millions on a sky scraper, that's all. If Trump wanted to build a 120 story hotel, grooevy.

Overall though, more on the immediate horizon than since Mike White was in his first term. Hatin' now doesn't make much sense IMO.

http://media.cleveland.com/business_impact/photo/30fgflatsjpg-34c6c7f46619f7db.jpg

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/01/projects_along_the_cuyahoga_ri.html

by jb » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:04 pm

Orenthal wrote:^Which is why I think its better to let it play out. Rather not have the heavy hand and be in a no win situation due to being the Great Satan. Sorry Obama, but this is a tough one to win on, and it is probably going to wind up being bigger then Iraq/Afghanistan.

I'm fully wait and see on the whole thing, including Obama. His move to the center, and a win here, could seal a second term.

Who say we can never agree? With you 100% on Egypt. I'm not optimistic becasue I can see a pro-Muslim movement overrunning a Weimar Egypt, but who knows? They are PISSED after the Mobarek speech, tho.

Question: Did Obama move center or did he throw Pelosi / Reid under the bus after being too deferntial due to milquetoastey inexperience in term one? I mainatin his rhetoric wasn't all that liberal objectively. parts of the agenda was.

by **Orenthal** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:10 pm

Isn't it odd to see the Muslim Brotherhood so quickly put their weight behind IAEA (his name is too much to type)??? Though not odd if you use your Weimer Republic model. I'm also watching Tunisia. The dictator has already stepped down. Let's see what fills the vacuum.

I think Obama was happy to be the idea guy when he knew his views aligned with the Reid/Polosi rubber stamp. But Obama has been in politics long enough, and I count non-profit/community organizing as politics, to see that his re-election is not as safe as the above two. As a politician he won't hesitate to throw those to overboard to assure his re-election.

Larger picture I belive it is all calculaed (duh), and Obama will only move enough to give the appearance of triangulating. The SOTU speech seemed filled with ideas from the left and the few bones he threw right were almost forced outta his mouth. Not sure if he has Clinton like skills, making you feel like the only one in the room/talking to you, but Obama is a fantastic communicator when his back is against the wall. It is when he feels comfortable or in his element that the truth usually flows.

'course I'm righty so the prizm kinda bends the light...

by jb » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:07 pm

back to Egypt....

All these despots are gravitating into SA. Marvellous.

If this is real, grass roots in the more developed mid east nations, be interesting to see where Iran goes and if naything starts there.

by **FUDU** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:06 am

Orenthal wrote:
FUDU wrote:No ATM's.
No cars or modern transportation.
No global reach of terrorizing religious fanatics (if you believe in that stuff).
No smart bombs, no dumb bombs either.
No teachers unions.
No income tax.
No entitlements just b/c.
No 24/7 anything.
No Hoover Dam.
No Mount Rushmore.

This whole list is just silly. If you had read anything about the Barbary Wars or had a clue about the foriegn policy of that time, you would at the very least compiled a different list. The whole post is a non-starter.

Mission accomplished, it was meant to be silly, mostly.

by **Orenthal** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:29 am

^I didn't realize Alexander Hamilton was still around. Heard him on a commercial the other day. Burr must be pissed.

by jb » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:45 pm

FUDU wrote:
Orenthal wrote:
FUDU wrote:No ATM's.
No cars or modern transportation.
No global reach of terrorizing religious fanatics (if you believe in that stuff).
No smart bombs, no dumb bombs either.
No teachers unions.
No income tax.
No entitlements just b/c.
No 24/7 anything.
No Hoover Dam.
No Mount Rushmore.

This whole list is just silly. If you had read anything about the Barbary Wars or had a clue about the foriegn policy of that time, you would at the very least compiled a different list. The whole post is a non-starter.
Mission accomplished, it was meant to be silly, mostly.

I thought it was new lyrics to the Gilligan's Island theme song.

by jb » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:52 pm

Ziner wrote:For JB

http://nation.foxnews.com/chris-matthew ... uipped-han

Matthews, Andrea Mitchell and a dude from the NYT tell JB to pipe down with the neo-con trash talk. Seems as if it is a backhanded way to really call the neo-cons the "realists".

I get the strong feelings that history is going to show Bush was out in front of this while the Democrats, Obama, and JB were not forward thinking enough.

As well, I will guess that if democracies spread like wildfire across the Middle East, Bush will get no credit from anyone. I will admit that there is some element of this that is like playing with fire, but it isnt as if there was a likely way to be out in front and stop it. Obama needs to be on top of this and finagle pro-American (or even neutral) leader(s) in the position of power

If that were to happen, I would be the very first to call Wolfewicz, Cheney, and W brilliant visionaries.

Unfortunaletly, all I can see coming of arab / farsi "democracy" are elections of islamic theocracies. You let a medievil population "vote" that's what you'll get. You can't have western style democracy before an age of enlightenment. Cart before the horse.

Shit is now hitting the fan real time on CNN. Mubarick isn't going down. Wither the military? Will they step it up from Jim Clark to Tienaman Square? They cloookin' cats on the head right and left. Throwing Molotov's like the old A Team.

Another good reason Obama should have STFU yesterday.

by **Fire Marshall Bill** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:57 pm

Another good reason Obama should have STFU yesterday.

Some times its just plain stupid to pick a side. This is one of those times.

Doing anymore than letting it play out is a lose lose prop imho

by jb » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:01 pm

Pro Mubarik "demonstrators" are riding in on camels with whips?

I think they will release the big cat soon.

by **Ziner** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:12 pm

jb wrote:
Unfortunaletly, all I can see coming of arab / farsi "democracy" are elections of islamic theocracies. You let a medievil population "vote" that's what you'll get. You can't have western style democracy before an age of enlightenment. Cart before the horse.

They get their opportunity, we just need to be there (with hopefully the help of Turkey) as a guide. They dont need a completely Western style democracy to consider it a success. Give them a chance and see how it plays out. We still hold some cards in this game regardless. We basically fund their military. As long as the elected officials aren't oppressive if things dont work out they will have their chance at another revolution.

It is almost like not letting your kids play football because they might get hurt so you just want them to be the waterboy all their life. Let them play, they might tear and ACL, but they might become an All-American. High stakes for sure, but we have little choice now. They are going to get their chance, we just need to be there to do some coaching...with whatever credibility we have left. We don't have an alternative. You can doubt them all day long about their ability to elect their leaders, but short of an invasion we ain't stopping it.

by jb » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:31 pm

Let you be right, and me old, cranky and wrong.

Me : Mid east non-theocratic fundamentalist wahabbist "democracy" :: Hiko : Browns success

I still say we occupy before we let the Royal Family be overturned.

BTW - The next moves of the populace will now be fascinating. You cath CNN?

It's on.

by **FUDU** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:38 pm

If you look out our back window you can see a huge mess, so let Eygypt work this thing out themselves, and put the United Nations stuff out on the lawn.

by jb » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:38 pm

Crazy, crazy footage.

Looks like a ton of dunkin donuts employees going Flrance & Normandy intersection style with animals.

Anyone else seeing this?

by **FUDU** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:41 pm

Yes, spectacular.

Sad, b/c so many people will die and not live to see the better day they believe they are fighting for.

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:30 pm

GODDAMN FUDU! I called you a Maroon, now account for yourself. I've waited a long time to use that hilarious and crafty insult.

Then come down and clear the 2 inches of ice off aeverything......... with a wooden spoon.

by **FUDU** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:43 pm

Oh that was you, I thought it was Bugs Bunny.

"2 inches of ice", rookies.

No Holds Barred

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