Egypt, & seriously Cleveland?

[Triple-S]

WWR never seemed like it would be my sort of thing. More power to those that dig it, and go on and post there. But ain't my bag.

was entertaining to read through the archives of people owning that Hankkk guy. But I agree with CDT, enjoy the more laid back style here.

BTW, how many of those that post here are/were posters there? I know Swerb, Eyo, JB, Mitch were all posters.

[jb]

Good for the Egyptians.
There's no such thing as principle in international affairs. Anyone who says anything different is clueless or a liar.

It is why IMO we should just take them all over... Steal the resources.

Way cheaper / less messy to just install puppets and manipulate.

But I'll add my to yours

[jb]

WWR never seemed like it would be my sort of thing. More power to those that dig it, and go on and post there. But ain't my bag.

was entertaining to read through the archives of people owning that Hankkk guy. But I agree with CDT, enjoy the more laid back style here.

BTW, how many of those that post here are/were posters there? I know Swerb, Eyo, JB, Mitch were all posters.

I'd have sooner walked a minefield full of spring after winter dog shot that frequented the OBR WWR. Most retarded forum ever.

[jb]

Wherever you stood on Iraq, it's safe to say that the "Freedom Agenda" is back in fashion, and promotion of democracy in the Middle East is no longer something to be sneered at and mocked by the bien pensants.

Sad that it is something we are willing (now) to promote for our ostensible "friends" (Egypt), but still appear to be unwilling to promote for countries brutally oppressed by people who are our sworn enemies (Iran, Syria).

Baby steps, I guess.

Kinda counting eggs before they hatch, no? We have no idea what will happen in Egypt, a Pro-Western democracy that doesn't want to destroy Israel would be nice...... but it could end in military dictatorship ala Pervez Musharraf and Pakistan and Egyptians would be no better off. Alot of entrenched monarchies in that area too. They aren't going anywhere soon.

Hope for the best and prepare for the worst I guess.

And you mention Syria and Iran but not North Korea? I think that should be priority No. 1. Nuclear armed and incredibly hostile towards us and our allies.

Priority one should be to mind our own fuckin' business and stop footing the bill for multinational corporations to do as they would while they divest from this nation. If the chineese aren't freaked out by north korea, why the fuck do we give a rats ass.

Green enery and get the fuck out the mideast. Irsael has a military. They can use it.

[jb]

Stupid ass foreingers and pussies who are all like "Yo yous can't be bombing Egypt for their oil and pyramids", I was like "oh yes we can, we're MURRICA, bitch, we have blue jeans and RC Cola, we does as we please with our bombs and your pyramids". Then this slut from a drum circle threw fake blood on me and called me a "pyramid opressor", so I impregnated her with my seed and now she loves me.

This is how I Diplomacize.

Almost perfect. You just have to specify "Wrangler (TM) " instead of "jeans". And also ref F 150's.

[FUDU]

WWR never seemed like it would be my sort of thing. More power to those that dig it, and go on and post there. But ain't my bag.

was entertaining to read through the archives of people owning that Hankkk guy. But I agree with CDT, enjoy the more laid back style here.

BTW, how many of those that post here are/were posters there? I know Swerb, Eyo, JB, Mitch were all posters.

Not many, and not enough IMO for this to become an a significant issue. I share peeker's view, in that I believe in giving someone a chance at free speech along w/some rope, b/c eventually they'll hang themselves.

[Orenthal]

Good for the Egyptians.
There's no such thing as principle in international affairs. Anyone who says anything different is clueless or a liar.

It is why IMO we should just take them all over... Steal the resources.

Way cheaper / less messy to just install puppets and manipulate.

But I'll add my to yours

Even better...

[Orenthal]

WWR never seemed like it would be my sort of thing. More power to those that dig it, and go on and post there. But ain't my bag.

was entertaining to read through the archives of people owning that Hankkk guy. But I agree with CDT, enjoy the more laid back style here.

BTW, how many of those that post here are/were posters there? I know Swerb, Eyo, JB, Mitch were all posters.

I'd have sooner walked a minefield full of spring after winter dog shot that frequented the OBR WWR. Most retarded forum ever.

There was a very brief period where the posters on each side were as CDT posted above. The only difference between here and that forum was the quantity of posters who engaged in politics. You always had your loons, but they were mostly background noise. The WWR today is more what FMB describes, and IMO is what JB calls it...

[danwismar]

Wherever you stood on Iraq, it's safe to say that the "Freedom Agenda" is back in fashion, and promotion of democracy in the Middle East is no longer something to be sneered at and mocked by the bien pensants.

Sad that it is something we are willing (now) to promote for our ostensible "friends" (Egypt), but still appear to be unwilling to promote for countries brutally oppressed by people who are our sworn enemies (Iran, Syria).

Baby steps, I guess.

Oh, I'm still sneering. Rolling my eyes too , and boy does that take face muscle discipline!

Danny and Ziner, don't be simpletons and play checkers. This is all about chess. This thing won't shake out in a meaningful form for YEARS. It isn't about some photo opp of an old peasant woman with a blue finger fresh from her ballot drop. Not by a longshot.

In Egypt, the military ran the nation three weeks ago and it stll does. New boss. Old boss. Roger daltry. All that. Not exactly tFrance in 1789. And thank goid they smak down the muslim brohood.

And FWIW by far the most brutal regieme is Saudi Arabia.

JB, you miss my point in your haste to name-call and lament the lack of nuance and long term perspective all around you. (It's not like either Ziner or I were prematurely celebrating the wonderful new Egyptian democracy) And you can belittle the purple-stained fingers all you like, but Iraq does have a functioning democracy in place, however flawed and precarious it may be.)

The recent shift in the administration's rhetoric on democracy promotion in the ME has been noted far and wide, from the New York Times to National Review. I thought my subsequent post (after the one you quote) clarified my point, so I won't repeat myself. As commentators on the left and right have noted, what is needed, and what has been lacking...is consistency from the White House...an overarching "grand strategy"

There's a good piece in Newsweek (that right wing rag) this week by Niall Ferguson, on this topic.

http://www.newsweek.com/2011/02/13/want ... erica.html

--

We know why BHO declined to speak up in strong support for the Iranian protesters in 2009. He didn't want to anger the regime he was trying to "engage" with on the nuke question...and he (legitimately I think) was cautious about the ways in which U.S. rhetorical support for the protesters might be dangerous to them.

Two years later, it appears he's learned that his silver tongue and outstretched hand to the mullahs isn't going to deter them, and his rhetoric has hardened...and the sanctions he has carried over from GWB are working to some degree. All to the good.

--

But I think one can be overly cynical about the degree to which "interests" trump "principle" in foreign policy. It is surely in our long term national interest to promote self-government and individual liberty, if only because experience tells us that free societies...democracies, if you will...don't make war on each other. Like I said before, they're not mutually exclusive.

(I discount the PA and Gaza situations...clearly they are not free societies, but examples of the "one man, one vote, one time" program.)

[jb]

JB, you miss my point in your haste to name-call

Oh get a kleenix for chrits's sake.

I wrote "don't be a simpleton:. Could have just said "don't get beguiled by a few days here an dthere. This is a long term proposition."

And short of invading there isn't a GD thing that the POTUS ( but you can write "BHO" n dthink everyone doesn't see it for the transparent birther nut case Beck shit it is and pretend you aren't there -- see that's name calling. And you deserve it for the "BHO" crap ) could have one about Iran.

1st Bush let saddam pillage the opposition after talkinbg it up. Then we stood by Tiananman sqaure. This is the way of the world. So again, don't be a simpleton.

Elections don't make a nation a democracy. Open elections that install indididuals beholden to functioning bona fide institutions based upon the rule of secular law do.

The militar will pick the next guy, or a mullah will in time if the military stumbles.

[danwismar]

Now I'm a birther for using the president's initials. Go shit and fall back in it.

HST, DDE, JFK, LBJ, WJC, GHWB, GWB, BHO

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Now I'm a birther for using the president's initials. Go shit and fall back in it.

HST, DDE, JFK, LBJ, WJC, GHWB, GWB, BHO

I'm ready to put jb in the "You're a racist if you trash Barrack Hussein Obama or call him by his real name, Barrack Hussein Obama" catagory

Imagine his outrage if I started posting pictures of that limp dick pansy bowing to every leader of the world, calling him out for begging to get his ass reamed sansa KY Jelly

[jb]

Go shit and fall back in it.

Heh. I like that. Best post you've made here.

See yah in the funny papers and in the content forums.

[jb]

Now I'm a birther for using the president's initials. Go shit and fall back in it.

HST, DDE, JFK, LBJ, WJC, GHWB, GWB, BHO

I'm ready to put jb in the "You're a racist if you trash Barrack Hussein Obama or call him by his real name, Barrack Hussein Obama" catagory

Imagine his outrage if I started posting pictures of that limp dick pansy bowing to every leader of the world, calling him out for begging to get his ass reamed sansa KY Jelly

Dipshit. Don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining. Those who make it a big deal to scream "Husein" always have an agenda. Not a single person outside of Fox world uses the " H "

It is what it is. If Reagan were POTUS the mullah's cap kids in the streets.

[FUDU]

Tell ya what, we need a list of exactly what we are allowed to call the guy, I'll start, feel free to add on:

1. He who has not accomplished jack squat
2. BO, b/c he stinks as POTUS
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.

[jb]

Tell ya what, we need a list of exactly what we are allowed to call the guy, I'll start, feel free to add on:

1. He who has not accomplished jack squat
2. BO, b/c he stinks as POTUS
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.

Not sayin anyone has to like him or what he's done or hasn't, but the whole "Hussein" thing is anti-American and whacko agenda laden. No respect for the office. But list 6,700 things you think are wrong. Cool. I don't care.

And you ARE still pissed Cleveland is paving more on the east side, aren't you?

[FUDU]

JB you simply need to be better than that, he's the only guy that we the people cannot refer to by his proper name for the sake of some crazy backlash...it's freakin stupid, and it the lazy retort to any attempt to stick up for the guy.

...and respect for the office, puhlease. Remember what people used to call the dumb shit before him, my God imagine calling BO that, you'd be arrested.

There is no secret code and the faux tolerance angle is not your thing JB.

[danwismar]

FTR, I didn't shout "Hussein". I used the traditional convention we use in this country to abbreviate presidents' names...and the one history will no doubt be using for Obama 20 years from now...long after lefties have lost their hypersensitivity to the use of it.

As to "the funny papers"...as far as I can see, it is you sir who are creating (and then arguing against) your own cartoonish caricature of people who say things in here that you disagree with.

Again, for the record, I have no patience nor sympathy for the birther "movement"...if it can be called that...and its loonies. Obama benefits from their ongoing exposure and any publicity they receive. The fact that he could end it all, and yet chooses not to, is telling.

What's bizarre is that I feel compelled to go on the record to say that, having never written anything here to support that inference. But baseless accusations have to be refuted.

For my part, JB, I love having you here. I love the dialogue. Sure hope you don't go away on my account. I'll even agree to dispense with the acronym in the future, now that I know it makes you crazy.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

The fact that he could end it all, and yet chooses not to, is telling.

lol.

No. No it isn't.

They already delt with that. People can either choose to accept it or contuinue to look like ignorant backwards hilljacks.

[danwismar]

The fact that he could end it all, and yet chooses not to, is telling.

lol.

No. No it isn't.

They already delt with that. People can either choose to accept it or contuinue to look like ignorant backwards hilljacks.

Fact is, we can agree that these people are an embarrassment to the political right, so it is in the administration's best interests to promote and draw attention to them as much as possible. And so they do.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Crazy people are going be crazy to attention to themselves, usually by throwing a fit.

Christ..... There are still people out there that think 9/11 was pulled off by the US Goverment.

I'm inclined to let them play the court jester, at least they're fun to rip on.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

JB you simply need to be better than that, he's the only guy that we the people cannot refer to by his proper name for the sake of some crazy backlash...it's freakin stupid, and it the lazy retort to any attempt to stick up for the guy.

Rack 'em!

Your break, FUDU

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Now I'm a birther for using the president's initials. Go shit and fall back in it.

HST, DDE, JFK, LBJ, WJC, GHWB, GWB, BHO

I'm ready to put jb in the "You're a racist if you trash Barrack Hussein Obama or call him by his real name, Barrack Hussein Obama" catagory

Imagine his outrage if I started posting pictures of that limp dick pansy bowing to every leader of the world, calling him out for begging to get his ass reamed sansa KY Jelly

Dipshit. Don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining. Those who make it a big deal to scream "Husein" always have an agenda. Not a single person outside of Fox world uses the " H "

It is what it is. If Reagan were POTUS the mullah's cap kids in the streets.

...and if Goldwater had been elected the ME woulda been glass 40 yrs ago

His name is Barrack Obama

If you choose to call him Barry because Barrack has a stigma sttached to it, fine.

I'll continue to call him by his Christian name

[jb]

Meh.

When it comes to the Obama hating all you whacky righties are the biggest passive-aggressive ninnies I've ever seen. Like Bill O'reilly. "Oh, did I emphasize HUSSEIN? I did?" Well IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII didn't mean anything by it. It's just his name."

It's a bunch of crap.

Like his policies. Don't like his policies. I don't give a shit. Just write a quality post that is thought provoking and has some solid content. But the reflexive wing nut cheap shots and then faux victimization like as if yous all a bunh of Hines Wards crying after the retaliatory hit following the cheap shots is just funny. And I'll call you on it everytime. Even John Boener says dude is a citizen. To call it a vast left wing conspiracy to keep the tea and birther loonies on the front pages is about te worst take I've read here in months. But hell if you all don't really believ ethat shit, so rock on.

And no, Dan, I'm not going anywhere. And you are still one of my fav Buckeye content posters.

Really, none of this is personal at all for me. Did you come up with that line about falling backwards into shit? I'm still laughing.

And FMR, you are a certifiable fakkin' nut case. XOXO.

[Kingpin3]

Now I'm a birther for using the president's initials. Go shit and fall back in it.

HST, DDE, JFK, LBJ, WJC, GHWB, GWB, BHO

I'm ready to put jb in the "You're a racist if you trash Barrack Hussein Obama or call him by his real name, Barrack Hussein Obama" catagory

To be fair to jb the only people who use 'Hussein' is teabaggers and birthers. You already know this though.

[peeker643]

Now I'm a birther for using the president's initials. Go shit and fall back in it.

HST, DDE, JFK, LBJ, WJC, GHWB, GWB, BHO

I'm ready to put jb in the "You're a racist if you trash Barrack Hussein Obama or call him by his real name, Barrack Hussein Obama" catagory

To be fair to jb the only people who use 'Hussein' is teabaggers and birthers. You already know this though.

What's actually impressive is how passionately and zealously jb defends the centrist position he maintains.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Meh.

When it comes to the Obama hating all you whacky righties are the biggest passive-aggressive ninnies I've ever seen. Like Bill O'reilly. "Oh, did I emphasize HUSSEIN? I did?" Well IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII didn't mean anything by it. It's just his name."

It's a bunch of crap.

Like his policies. Don't like his policies. I don't give a shit. Just write a quality post that is thought provoking and has some solid content. But the reflexive wing nut cheap shots and then faux victimization like as if yous all a bunh of Hines Wards crying after the retaliatory hit following the cheap shots is just funny. And I'll call you on it everytime. Even John Boener says dude is a citizen. To call it a vast left wing conspiracy to keep the tea and birther loonies on the front pages is about te worst take I've read here in months. But hell if you all don't really believ ethat shit, so rock on.

And no, Dan, I'm not going anywhere. And you are still one of my fav Buckeye content posters.

Really, none of this is personal at all for me. Did you come up with that line about falling backwards into shit? I'm still laughing.

And FMR, you are a certifiable fakkin' nut case. XOXO.

Thanks man...I appreciate it

This will look good on my PTSD claim

I really do hate all of them and think term limits and whacking political pensions is a good place to start...

I'll be the first to throw it out there that there are too fucking many 70-80 yr old narrow minded white men in power and I wish them all dead and gone and this afternoon wouldn't be too soon

Its just too bad that the plane that flew into the Pentagon on 9-11 didn't crash into the Capitol Bldg while Congress and the Senate were in session

A clean slate woulda been nice

[Kingpin3]

...and if Goldwater had been elected the ME woulda been glass 40 yrs ago

[citation needed]

[jb]

Now I'm a birther for using the president's initials. Go shit and fall back in it.

HST, DDE, JFK, LBJ, WJC, GHWB, GWB, BHO

I'm ready to put jb in the "You're a racist if you trash Barrack Hussein Obama or call him by his real name, Barrack Hussein Obama" catagory

To be fair to jb the only people who use 'Hussein' is teabaggers and birthers. You already know this though.

What's actually impressive is how passionately and zealously jb defends the centrist position he maintains.

The dude abides in center.

You gun toting nut job you. Always drunk and loud when I see you, too. Wait a minute. That's me. But you are a gun toating rightie.

[Orenthal]

Eh, Hussein Obama is nothing more then the typical extreme lefty. That is about as boogeyman as it gets. IMO pretty bad.

[jb]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110214/ts_yblog_thelookout/egypts-impact-unrest-sweeps-the-middle-east

They even singing in Bahrain now, too.

I hope BARRACK says some really mean shit about the Iranian government's repression. It will put the demonstartors over the top, I'm sure.

[Orenthal]

^Hoping the same thing. BHO getting a reset switch on his handling of Iran. Prez really has a chance here to do something big. Does he puss out, probably. Lefty on the big stage has been playing both sides of the fence for years.

[jb]

^Hoping the same thing. BHO getting a reset switch on his handling of Iran. Prez really has a chance here to do something big. Does he puss out, probably. Lefty on the big stage has been playing both sides of the fence for years.

WTF do you expect him to do, OJ. Invade? With what? Wad's been shot. They already are sanctioned to the max and PNG in the international community. He can huff and puff but can't blow the house down.

If he even says anything, they Fox mediots will be all over him. If he says nothing, the Fox mediots will be all over him. None of it is issue focussed and we can't do shit about Iran. Iranians can, though.

[Kingpin3]

Why does Orenthal want us to be the world police?

[peeker643]

Now I'm a birther for using the president's initials. Go shit and fall back in it.

HST, DDE, JFK, LBJ, WJC, GHWB, GWB, BHO

I'm ready to put jb in the "You're a racist if you trash Barrack Hussein Obama or call him by his real name, Barrack Hussein Obama" catagory

To be fair to jb the only people who use 'Hussein' is teabaggers and birthers. You already know this though.

What's actually impressive is how passionately and zealously jb defends the centrist position he maintains.

The dude abides in center.

You gun toting nut job you. Always drunk and loud when I see you, too. Wait a minute. That's me. But you are a gun toating rightie.

I guess I am. But I'm not committed to anything other than the gun-toting part really.

What I am is a selfish prick. I don't give a fuck about much other than me and mine. My sense of global right and wrong is broken.

I'm fine with helping a fellow redneck out but not the same redneck 30 times. I'm not about a welfare state and repeated handouts and abuse of the system but I honestly don't care if Jack marries Jill or Jack marries Bill and it's okay with me if they adopt 'Lil Phil.

Not talking to you JB but everyone from Keith Olberman to Sara Palin thinks they're a centrist. I'm just tired of everybody shouting as loudly as they can and no one listening. That's why I've determined the whole fucking process is hopeless and therefore pointless.

I'm a disinterested dude that wants to hunt deer and rabbits and who will help you up once or twice til you start abusing my assistance.

Whatever that makes me is what I am.

And I find monkeys and midgets fucking hysterical.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

^Hoping the same thing. BHO getting a reset switch on his handling of Iran. Prez really has a chance here to do something big. Does he puss out, probably. Lefty on the big stage has been playing both sides of the fence for years.

WTF do you expect him to do, OJ. Invade? With what? Wad's been shot. They already are sanctioned to the max and PNG in the international community. He can huff and puff but can't blow the house down.

If he even says anything, they Fox mediots will be all over him. If he says nothing, the Fox mediots will be all over him. None of it is issue focussed and we can't do shit about Iran. Iranians can, though.

+Alot

They all cluck and crow about him not doing enough to "support" democracy....

The last time Iran had a democraticly elected PM we supported his removal and installed a despotic sex criminal in the Shah.

If Obama comes out and says "Hell yeah go Egyptian Opposition, I got yo back".... and they end up with someone worse than Mubarak, what will the brainless talking heads on Fox say then?

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Ranting aside, I think this is great on the surface

Egypt can become a real player in the world or they can can succumb to muslim extremism

If I was Obama I'd be fanning the flames in Iran and ramping up in Afghanistan

If thats what he's doing, fine, I don't wtch or listen and don't really give a rats ass

My caring days are over....like peek, I'm in it for me and mine from now on and to hell with everyone or anything I have no control over anyway

I'm ready for spring, getting back to work, BBQ's, Harley riding and bass fishing and don't much give a rats ass about anything else....esp the Browns and politicians

[FUDU]

Meh.

When it comes to the Obama hating all you whacky righties are the biggest passive-aggressive ninnies I've ever seen. Like Bill O'reilly. "Oh, did I emphasize HUSSEIN? I did?" Well IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII didn't mean anything by it. It's just his name."

It's a bunch of crap.

Like his policies. Don't like his policies. I don't give a shit. Just write a quality post that is thought provoking and has some solid content. But the reflexive wing nut cheap shots and then faux victimization like as if yous all a bunh of Hines Wards crying after the retaliatory hit following the cheap shots is just funny. And I'll call you on it everytime. Even John Boener says dude is a citizen. To call it a vast left wing conspiracy to keep the tea and birther loonies on the front pages is about te worst take I've read here in months. But hell if you all don't really believ ethat shit, so rock on.

And no, Dan, I'm not going anywhere. And you are still one of my fav Buckeye content posters.

Really, none of this is personal at all for me. Did you come up with that line about falling backwards into shit? I'm still laughing.

And FMR, you are a certifiable fakkin' nut case. XOXO.

JB call us/me craz fools all you want, at least I ain't breathn heavy.

The only one playn victim here is you and your spasm reaction to people calling the POTUS by his given name.
You half Irish half apologist?

[jb]

How do you shoot a bunny? Doesn't it just like disintegrate into pieces, like kicking a dandylion?

BTW - u sound pretty centrist to me.

[peeker643]

How do you shoot a bunny? Doesn't it just like disintegrate into pieces, like kicking a dandylion?

BTW - u sound pretty centrist to me.

Small game shotgun shells hold bb's in them, not a solid piece of metal like a slug or a bullet.

A rabbit only gets hit with a couple bb's which is enough to kill it without blowing it up at all (unless it's really close and absorbs almost all of those bbs and then you can have that dandelion effect )

[jb]

How do you shoot a bunny? Doesn't it just like disintegrate into pieces, like kicking a dandylion?

BTW - u sound pretty centrist to me.

Small game shotgun shells hold bb's in them, not a solid piece of metal like a slug or a bullet.

A rabbit only gets hit with a couple bb's which is enough to kill it without blowing it up at all (unless it's really close and absorbs almost all of those bbs and then you can have that dandelion effect )

Doesn't that give your hassenpheffer like a crunchy peanut butter effect cept you can't chew metal?

[peeker643]

How do you shoot a bunny? Doesn't it just like disintegrate into pieces, like kicking a dandylion?

BTW - u sound pretty centrist to me.

Small game shotgun shells hold bb's in them, not a solid piece of metal like a slug or a bullet.

A rabbit only gets hit with a couple bb's which is enough to kill it without blowing it up at all (unless it's really close and absorbs almost all of those bbs and then you can have that dandelion effect )

Doesn't that give your hassenpheffer like a crunchy peanut butter effect cept you can't chew metal?

Not if you hit them in the head.

But sometimes the preparation prior to turning it into stew or hassenpfeffer involves picking out the bbs, yes. No different than cutting a bit of fat off a chicken breast though.

BTW, I think I'm probably a bit LOC regarding medical care in this country following the goat fuck of the last 7 weeks. That's a shift from where I was.

Needs fixed. Not saying how or how much, but from first hand experience I can tell you that as the most developed country in the world and in the back yard of two of the very best hospitals in the world, the level of care and the communication between systems is deplorable and disgusting.

Still a huge fan of the potential behind televised executions though. That's reality TV at its best right there boss. That probably slides me back to the right side of center.

[Ziner]

Wherever you stood on Iraq, it's safe to say that the "Freedom Agenda" is back in fashion, and promotion of democracy in the Middle East is no longer something to be sneered at and mocked by the bien pensants.

Sad that it is something we are willing (now) to promote for our ostensible "friends" (Egypt), but still appear to be unwilling to promote for countries brutally oppressed by people who are our sworn enemies (Iran, Syria).

Baby steps, I guess.

Oh, I'm still sneering. Rolling my eyes too , and boy does that take face muscle discipline!

Danny and Ziner, don't be simpletons and play checkers. This is all about chess. This thing won't shake out in a meaningful form for YEARS. It isn't about some photo opp of an old peasant woman with a blue finger fresh from her ballot drop. Not by a longshot.

In Egypt, the military ran the nation three weeks ago and it stll does. New boss. Old boss. Roger daltry. All that. Not exactly tFrance in 1789. And thank goid they smak down the muslim brohood.

And FWIW by far the most brutal regieme is Saudi Arabia.

Spare me with the checkers/chess analogy, the professor routine is stale.

Of course it will take years, I never said there wouldn't be issues or that we/they are out of the clear. There are still serious issues they need to overcome, but hopefully through trial and error they figure it out in the coming years, or even decades, and become a functioning democracy in the middle east.

Just as Iraq will continue to take time, but if I recall correctly you want to leave them out in the cold and bring em all home. Which is shallow and inconsistent. You are afraid to back the people of Egypt for fears of who they would install as their new government and yet you want to high tail it from Iraq and assume that the same thugs wouldn't be rushing in to Iraq to fill the vacuum we left. Chess, not checkers. Don't be a simpleton. Not to mention if the military runs the show in Egypt what were you so afraid of happening there anyway.

Like I said before, the entire ME is in the 4th century. For god sakes they were riding camels through the streets as if they are some Arab calvary. The best long-term situation for the US is to bring these people to the 21st century is to get them democracies, PS3's, and Miley Cyrus. Perhaps then they could stop beheading Christians and trading goats. The people of Egypt are tired of not having jobs and sick of paying extremely high prices for food (remember that QE thingy???). They want to opportunity to work for a better life, that is why it is the young people who started this thing. It is likely many have seen the world, even if it is through facebook they have a large out of work educated population over there. Those are the people stirring up this whole thing, not the muslim extremist.

This entire thing could shape and shift the entire region, not in years, but eventually. However the ball is rolling. Turkey, Iraq, Tunisa, Egypt, and Iran is already starting up. Difference being it is going to take a ton of bloodshed to topple Iran and I have strong doubts that a revolution could ever even stand a chance. (ie. why Iraqis could never do it themselves).

Democracies take time and are messy, you have to look no further than ours. That doesnt mean that because Iraq's democracy isn't fully mature yet it isn't on the path to being so.

This is much more than just chess.

Since this post is long already, I would like to just take you to task for your bullshit BHO argument. Avoid and evade, that is what you do when Dan takes you to the woodshed with his takes. Never attack the post, always the poster when it comes to him. You did it a while back with him. He laid out fact after fact and you just call him a tea-party nut. Find that humorous... and pathetic. Respect for the office you say, that's strange never really saw you take anyone to task for what they said about Dubya, just found that interesting coming from a centrist and all.

[Ziner]

The main premise of my post was to point out the blantant hypocrisy by politicians left and right. Left celebrates this as the best thing since sliced bread, but continue to rail on Iraq as not having hope, being unsuccessful, and talk as if it is a lost cause. I would like to cut off the argument that if the people of Iraq wanted democracy they could have protested for it like the Egyptians. I find that argument laughable because Saddam would have killed or tortured the protesters. For as bad as Mubarak was, at least he eventually allowed the freedom of expression.

We all want democracy in the ME. With democracy you sometimes get religious extremist, like Sarah Palin. Sorry but it can happen. Two and a half weeks later we have democracy in Egypt. 7 years & $100 gazillion dollars later we have nothing in Iraq. Iraq being a country Bush invaded based on lies. A subtle difference between the two countries that isn't usually lost on most peeps.

Please don't let yourself believe that in two and a half weeks we have democracy in Egypt. It is a long and messy process. You can look at no better example than Iraq. After 7 years it is not a perfect system, but to say we have nothing is simply dishonest. I have multiple friends who have served many tours over there. The one that I have the most discussion with about Iraq always comes back and tells stories of the hope the people have and how happy they are that their lives are no longer ruled by Saddam. It wasn't clean, it wasn't with out bloodshed, but to say we have nothing is just wrong. Just for the record this isnt some right wing military man. His voting record consists of Gore, Kerry and Obama.

The people in Iraq were not in a the same position of Egypt. Their protests wouldn't even have been heard. That regime wasn't caving to public pressure.

See I get the let them play with in their sandbox with their brutal dictator as long as our oil is cheap argument. However I look at the big picture and realize that maybe, just maybe we modernize that area of the world everyone's lives are better. They are stuck centuries behind us, we can let them stay there, or we can give them the hand up. I vote hand up and not purely for selfish reasons.

[jb]

Took me a while to wade through the lecture, dad. And you call me a perfessuh?

I like Dan. I really do. He doesn't need any validation from me. I'm not a believer yet though on serious political discourse with him yet. When I get some recurring balanced takes on both sides of the aisle with regularity I will take things more seriously and thoughtfully. "woodshed" my white ass. Chrust, I thought the name of the forum was NHB'd, not "I have to give equal credence to what I read as thinly veiled partisanship cotillian" forum.

Onto biz.

hey brah, I agree with you 100% upt to a point, believe it or not.

SDI and the 80's arms race sank the USSR a whole lot less than Levi's, Billy Joel, and Elton John (no accounting for taste, but it worked, eh? )and the crushing weight of societal inertia. And you and I both subscribe to the pre-age of enlightenment theory.

Now here's the new dealy-oh . I've heard the argument that an open pop culture and vibrant economy are the way to "democratize" the world. That once you get the former rolling the latter is more or less inevitable. I no longer automatically believe that. I have come to the conclusion this is an old, outdated paradigm that views a central government based planned economy as part and parcel of totalitarinism.

The 1950's USSR isn't the model. 2011 China is.

You can make some arginemt that China is marginally better than it used to be when Mao was doing whacky shit that was bordeline genocide, but I'm not sure that dog hunts. The Chinese economy is the envy of the world as far as growth, the borders are open, but that place is stilll in lockdown. Thus it is entirely possible to have a conervative islamic based theocracy in place even if the economies pick up and they redistribute wealth and shocker - the people vote.

"Democracy" as defined by open elections means absolutely nothing to the US on a geopolotical sene. Having a more western based foundation of rule of law > wahhabist ultra conservative islam would.

There really is absolutely zero point in democracy as an end in itself in the ME. means nothing to the US economic security.

And this whole civics lesson about "messy demorcay"? What is that all about? Who cares? WTF meaning does any othe that have? the world is a cynical, rat eat rat world. That shit ain't real.


I thought everyone after WWII knew that.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

SDI and the 80's arms race sank the USSR a whole lot less than Levi's, Billy Joel, and Elton John (no accounting for taste, but it worked, eh? )and the crushing weight of societal inertia

Thats crap

Billy Joel was never that popular...

[jb]

http://siberianlight.net/billy-joels-historic-soviet-concert-tour/

Like i said FMB - no accounting for taste. But it was him and not Stryper that played the USSR.

[Orenthal]

WTF do you expect him to do, OJ. Invade? With what? Wad's been shot. They already are sanctioned to the max and PNG in the international community. He can huff and puff but can't blow the house down.

If he even says anything, they Fox mediots will be all over him. If he says nothing, the Fox mediots will be all over him. None of it is issue focussed and we can't do shit about Iran. Iranians can, though.

I meant playing both sides of the fence in terms of his rhetoric. I'm not advocating any military action, well, nothing that would cause us to expend much in terms of resources. He makes it so you don't really know what side he is on. Are you supporting the people on the street, or the mullahs. He is tepid in his approach. In Iran it blew up in his face because the mullahs wouldn't fold.

In Egypt, initially he looked weak again, but then Mubarek, or probably more importantly, the military wasn't willing to go as far as Tehran.

As far as the talking heads? There is going to be noise no matter what you do, but when the correct path is chosen those supporting and giving kudos will drown out the "spinners". (Well unless your GWB )

[Orenthal]

You can make some arginemt that China is marginally better than it used to be when Mao was doing whacky shit that was bordeline genocide...

I find the bolded part funny. Genocide and mass murder would work without any qualifiers.

But anyway about that other part of the above post. Doesn't Iran fit that definition? They appear much more Western then Suadi Arabia. Oh, btw, why don't we invade there just to get things really interesting? They really are the problem aren't they? Or do we just support all the "street uprisings*" and hope they encircle that shit hole.

*Assumes the end result is a more "enlightened" democracy.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

You can make some arginemt that China is marginally better than it used to be when Mao was doing whacky shit that was bordeline genocide...

I find the bolded part funny. Genocide and mass murder would work without any qualifiers.

But anyway about that other part of the above post. Doesn't Iran fit that definition? They appear much more Western then Suadi Arabia. Oh, btw, why don't we invade there just to get things really interesting? They really are the problem aren't they? Or do we just support all the "street uprisings*" and hope they encircle that shit hole.

*Assumes the end result is a more "enlightened" democracy.

Those Monarchies aren't going anywhere. There are about 9,000 Saudi princes driving Ferraris and Mercedes and they all have harems.