Midterm Elections

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Is Kasich actually going lower my taxes, or are the real tax cuts just for his faggot power broker businessmen friends?

[Orenthal]

Guy still has a horrible haircut.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Guy still has a horrible haircut.

Trafficant smiles.

Yeah 'ol Kasich sure does have a $2 pickle puffer haircut.

Stupid ass fruits like Boehner and Kucinich. "Hurrrrrrr! We have millions of dollars but go to Great Clips durrrrrrr!".

What a bunch of creeps.

Seriously.

[FUDU]

For proof your vote probably doesn't count, or that our elections are possible shady, look no further than Dennis Kucinich. I have met a total of one person in my life that has claimed to like (and vote for) the guy, yet he keeps getting reelected.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

For proof your vote probably doesn't count, or that our elections are possible shady, look no further than Dennis Kucinich. I have met a total of one person in my life that has claimed to like (and vote for) the guy, yet he keeps getting reelected.

Hmmmmm..... I'm no detective, but it might all those people you don't know that vote for him.

[FUDU]

^^^ the one person.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

No.

I can't stand that guy and i'm about 84% sure he's from outer space.

[idoctribefan]

2 yrs ago I saw hundreds of Kucinich bumper stickers and yard signs. This year?...not a one. I thought he may actually be taken out this time around. Alas, it was not to be.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

What did Kucinich win by?

[FUDU]

I thought he may actually be taken out this time around. Alas, it was not to be.

You're thinking of his trip to Tony's Diner on the west side in the 79 as Mayor.

[BruceK]

What did Kucinich win by?

He got 52.8% of the vote. Someone named Peter Corrigan got 44.1% - many West Side Irish automatically vote for Corrigans

[jb]

Late, late, late to the party and missed a big fun week.

F'n work, and I just bought a new crib that is a fixer upper and moved in late October. Free time has been nil.

hey man, as a centrist I loved this election. This might be the perfect form of government for us now. A fiscally conservative house to stop spending now that the business cycle is shwoing signs of wheezing back to life and the evil chimichanga that was the credit / housing bust appears to be leavin the colon of the national economy, a senate percefctly set up to do not a GD thing, and POTUS who is he has any balls at all (jury out) can veto any whack shit the wing nuts do hapen to get by the Senate.
IOW, we hve it tee'd up for 1994 - 1999 all over again.

The pendulum swung way, way too far dumb / right under W. So far that it fucked things up for years.

2008 was the required correction to set some things in motiojn, and some huge down the line issues were dealth with decisively with needed reform on the health insurance and financial industries, and some Keynsian strategic investments in sustainable energy and infrastructure -- not enough -- but a good chunk that will continue to roll forward. But that spending was unsustainable in the deficits. Time to reel 'er back in.

Sweet, sweet gridlock is coming. These morons won't come together to do a GD thing until after 2012. And for wher ethe economy / country is right now, as a centrist I love me the checks and balances.

On the TPs..... I am 100% convinced that these wankers are naive, hypocritical, racist, reactionary, petulent, undereducated dumb fucks and they are awesome for the process and the nation right now. Just the shot of passion and push back that was needed to drive it center.

NFW they get the big prizes in 2012 though, and if anyone thinks they have a bead on 2012 they are higher than Keith Murray.

[jb]

What did Kucinich win by?

He got 52.8% of the vote. Someone named Peter Corrigan got 44.1% - many West Side Irish automatically vote for Corrigans

Only if they went to Ignatius and run for judge.

get it right. ;-)

[jb]

For the first time in my voting life, there's actually a couple of candidates I feel good about voting for tomorrow in the state of OH in Kasich and Portman.

Voted for Taft, then regretted it and voted against him the second time he won. Voted for Blackwell in '06, but that was just an anti-Strickland vote. Same with Dewine when he lost to Sherrod Brown.

Voting for (R) Mandel for Auditor and (D) Cordray for AG. Abstaining in the SoS and Auditor elections.

Nationally, I'm just very down on what's going on. Obama, who I voted against but genuinely had high hopes for once he got in ... has been a disaster. Never has one man had a single bigger impact on the economy with his drunken sailor spending, anti-business comments and practices, threats of tax increases, and his jamming down America's throats of a health care policy 70% of the country loathes. He's a divisive smug idiot career politician. He's been a massive disappointment. The proof is in the pudding.

The result is going to be Mitch McConnell and John Boehner spending the next four years focusing more on making decisions more geared towards making Obama look bad and having him not be re-elected as opposed to making decisions in the best interest of the country. And the emergence of the Tea Party ... its just gonna keep the pressure on all the Republican power brokers focused on finishing off Obama. Clinton and Gingrich were both very smart and respected one another. To compare what we're heading into to that is lunacy.

The shame of it all is that America has never needed its politicians more. We're still at war. Real unemployment is god damn near 17%. Stated unemployment is 9.7% ... and isn't going down anytime soon. Businesses are terrified by this government, have learned how to work leaner, technology has eroded job needs, and people are just generally more productive. Unemployment is going to be high for a long time. Which is going to continue to hurt consumer spending and the housing market, which are the key components to getting this economy going.

Rich, I think the worst is over.

Ray Charles can see Afghanistan iswinding down adn we're out of there soon, like Iraq, and the business cycle is goiung to come screaming back once the tax rates get set - up or flat.



We only need the government to stay out of the way now.

[jb]

The common man will continue to be torn at the seams by dirty politicians and ignorant masses until those that truly care about community stand up and fight for whats rightfully theirs. Politics/capitalistic ideals in this country have turned into a cesspool of greed, empty promises, and wanton spending/backroom deal-making by BOTH sides. Capitalism in this country used to have an entrepreneurial mindset; now its how to manipulate a $ on the sole basis of speculation. Robber Barons are more prevalent now than in the mid 30's, the only difference is that instead of oil companies and factories, they're doing it with computers, hedge funds, a billion Chinese, and a hand in the government's pocket. If people are really pissed off and tired of being F'd by ineffective policy making and corporate America, hate to say it Mr. John Q. Public, but change is only coming by way of a voice and a gun not a ballot and a hope. Money is power - always has been, always will be.

+ 1

The real story here is the crazy political schitzophrenia from Scranton to Oshkosh, Canada to the Ohio river. Who the fuck elects Sharrod Brown and Rob Portman as their senators with any sort of coherent intelligence? And it is purey a product of an "American Me" style sodomization of the industrial middle class that has resulted in a catatonic state of fear. The industrial middle class, once the bakbone of this nation economically, are now hunkered down like Will Smith in I am Legend

[danwismar]

Late, late, late to the party and missed a big fun week.

F'n work, and I just bought a new crib that is a fixer upper and moved in late October. Free time has been nil.

hey man, as a centrist I loved this election. This might be the perfect form of government for us now. A fiscally conservative house to stop spending now that the business cycle is shwoing signs of wheezing back to life and the evil chimichanga that was the credit / housing bust appears to be leavin the colon of the national economy, a senate percefctly set up to do not a GD thing, and POTUS who is he has any balls at all (jury out) can veto any whack shit the wing nuts do hapen to get by the Senate.
IOW, we hve it tee'd up for 1994 - 1999 all over again.

The pendulum swung way, way too far dumb / right under W. So far that it fucked things up for years.

2008 was the required correction to set some things in motiojn, and some huge down the line issues were dealth with decisively with needed reform on the health insurance and financial industries, and some Keynsian strategic investments in sustainable energy and infrastructure -- not enough -- but a good chunk that will continue to roll forward. But that spending was unsustainable in the deficits. Time to reel 'er back in.

Sweet, sweet gridlock is coming. These morons won't come together to do a GD thing until after 2012. And for wher ethe economy / country is right now, as a centrist I love me the checks and balances.

On the TPs..... I am 100% convinced that these wankers are naive, hypocritical, racist, reactionary, petulent, undereducated dumb fucks and they are awesome for the process and the nation right now. Just the shot of passion and push back that was needed to drive it center.

NFW they get the big prizes in 2012 though, and if anyone thinks they have a bead on 2012 they are higher than Keith Murray.

I guess you can define the "center" by wherever it is you happen to be sitting.

But I think JB better look around to find where the country's "centrists" reside these days. The nation's "center" opposes what you called "needed" health care reform, and they told the President as much on Tuesday. The nation's center is, by definition, its independents, who voted overwhelmingly against the Obama "reforms" and the Obama Keynesianism.

The nation's "center" thinks Keynesianism is folly, as evidenced by the failure of the stimulus to stimulate. (So do the UK and Germany, by the way, despite the Obami's insistence that they, like us, run trillion dollar deficits as a way to rescue their economies. Germany said screw you, embarked on a saner path, and they are growing at 9% annually and have unemployment down to 7.5%, the lowest in 20 years) The UK is making painful cuts to their bureaucracy, and is generally on a similar, non-Keynesian course.

Clarity is preferable to agreement between political parties though, so it's good that the American left, who as recently as the mid 2000's under Bush lamented his deficit spending (in the $150-400 billion range for his first seven pre-TARP years), now sees trillion dollar deficits not as a regrettable bug, but a feature of their economic plan.

So far, I count JB, Paul Krugman and three other people still deluding themselves that if only the stimulus plan had been to spend 2 or 3 trillion we didn't have instead of just one trillion we didn't have, the unemployment rate would have crashed and everyone would be out happily building roads and sewers for a living.

JB, you can't claim to be in the nation's center and at the same time celebrate policies the center has shown they reject.

As for 2012....this year demonstrates how silly it is to make sweeping statements like "The Death of Conservatism" was two short years ago. But the Dems defend 24 Senate seats in two years, to the GOP's nine. Those numbers won't change appreciably in the meantime. And based on yesterday's press conference by BHO, he remains in deep denial that his policies are what the nation rejected on Tuesday.

The real centrists have spoken. And they aren't Keynesians who celebrate the health care reforms.

[jb]

I get it Danny, you are right wing nut.

We can't discuss as rational men. I don't bleed it to other forums though, and best I can tell, neither do you. So we got THAT going for us, which is nice.

Thus I dismiss your takes here. I just move along.

Have a weekend when it comes.

[Ziner]

2008 was the required correction to set some things in motiojn, and some huge down the line issues were dealth with decisively with needed reform on the health insurance and financial industries, and some Keynsian strategic investments in sustainable energy and infrastructure -- not enough -- but a good chunk that will continue to roll forward. But that spending was unsustainable in the deficits. Time to reel 'er back in.

What you say about things being setup about as well as they can I agree with, but...

Financial reform isn't going to do a damn thing besides increase costs for financial institutions (on top of the HC bill I might add). Not to mention add another layer of incompetence in regulating the financial markets.

If you think the people in Washington specifically Dodd and Frank are smarter than the guys running the show on Wall Street then I am not sure what to say. They will loophole the shit out of this bill. There is a reason some are calling it the Lawyer and Accountant Welfare Act of 2010. Half of the people trading derivatives don't even fully understand them yet, Frank, Dodd and the rest of congress is going to regulate it?

[jb]

2008 was the required correction to set some things in motiojn, and some huge down the line issues were dealth with decisively with needed reform on the health insurance and financial industries, and some Keynsian strategic investments in sustainable energy and infrastructure -- not enough -- but a good chunk that will continue to roll forward. But that spending was unsustainable in the deficits. Time to reel 'er back in.

What you say about things being setup about as well as they can I agree with, but...

Financial reform isn't going to do a damn thing besides increase costs for financial institutions (on top of the HC bill I might add). Not to mention add another layer of incompetence in regulating the financial markets.

If you think the people in Washington specifically Dodd and Frank are smarter than the guys running the show on Wall Street then I am not sure what to say. They will loophole the shit out of this bill. There is a reason some are calling it the Lawyer and Accountant Welfare Act of 2010. Half of the people trading derivatives don't even fully understand them yet, Frank, Dodd and the rest of congress is going to regulate it?

can't disagree with that much, Z.

But you gotta try, right?

Or do you just say "fuck it" and BOHICA?

[Fire Marshall Bill]

We can't discuss as rational men. ......

......Thus I dismiss your takes here. I just move along.

Have a weekend when it comes.

You use this take a lot.

As soon as someone destroys your so-called 'centrist' takes, you bail by calling them irrational then boogie into a closet

...and no, Barrack Hussein Obama is not going to suddenly grow a pair

[jb]

We can't discuss as rational men. ......

......Thus I dismiss your takes here. I just move along.

Have a weekend when it comes.

You use this take a lot.

As soon as someone destroys your so-called 'centrist' takes, you bail by calling them irrational then boogie into a closet

Because the internet is filled with whackos. Been here since years before you got your first "free" AOL CD Rom in the snail mail and will be here a while longer. Look at my post count and presence and suck on your "bailing" take. I've just learned not to waste my carpel tunnel allowance. Only a moron believes that he has to respond to tripe like it has substance.

And I'll keep waiting for the day when my takes are "destroyed" by the wing nut likes of bw, you and wiz...

[danwismar]

I get it Danny, you are right wing nut.

We can't discuss as rational men. I don't bleed it to other forums though, and best I can tell, neither do you. So we got THAT going for us, which is nice.

Thus I dismiss your takes here. I just move along.

Have a weekend when it comes.

JB, Sorry, I thought this was a discussion forum, not a dismiss and move along forum.

I make periodic apologies for my tone in here, which I admit often comes across as more harsh and assholish than the veritable puppy dog that I am in person. Please consider this another in a continuing series.

Not sure what I said that you felt is beyond the bounds of rationality. My points were political, not personal. My arguments were...well...arguments, not name-calling (like your caricature of TP'ers, or of me as a "nut")

I'd love to hear you address what I actually said, rationally of course.

Maybe you would dispute my contention that,(based only on the views you expressed in here...I can't claim to know your overall political outlook) your views seem to be to the left of where the self-identified centrists/independents voted on Tuesday. That's all. I realize I might have been less confrontational in how I expressed that. I try not to generalize ("you people") and name-call.

I guess I don't know how to make it not "personal", when I am responding directly to one person's statement of their personal opinions and worldview. I'll try to get better at that.

You have a good weekend too, man.

[jb]

I get it Danny, you are right wing nut.

We can't discuss as rational men. I don't bleed it to other forums though, and best I can tell, neither do you. So we got THAT going for us, which is nice.

Thus I dismiss your takes here. I just move along.

Have a weekend when it comes.

JB, Sorry, I thought this was a discussion forum, not a dismiss and move along forum.

It is when there is no point.

You are too intransigent on this topic, Dan. So in turn you view others' PsOV as such. Doesn't make you an a-hole across the board at all. Love your FB takes and some others. Just means we can't do business when it comes to chopping up events and politics. And this is just business. Not personal.

There's just no point, that's all. It's like trying to chop it up with a Limbaugh or Hannity or Olberman or Schultz. It's as fun as an ice pick to the dome.

[danwismar]

I get it Danny, you are right wing nut.

We can't discuss as rational men. I don't bleed it to other forums though, and best I can tell, neither do you. So we got THAT going for us, which is nice.

Thus I dismiss your takes here. I just move along.

Have a weekend when it comes.

JB, Sorry, I thought this was a discussion forum, not a dismiss and move along forum.

It is when there is no point.

You are too intransigent on this topic, Dan. So in turn you view others' PsOV as such. Doesn't make you an a-hole across the board at all. Love your FB takes and some others. Just means we can't do business when it comes to chopping up events and politics. And this is just business. Not personal.

There's just no point, that's all. It's like trying to chop it up with a Limbaugh or Hannity or Olberman or Schultz. It's as fun as an ice pick to the dome.

Please clarify for me...I'm "intransigent" on which topic? There were several in there. And I am always subject to well-argued and reasoned persuasion. I much prefer it to dismissal.

Gratified as I am that you don't consider me an asshole "across the board", I guess I need to know which "events and politics" topics we can chop up, and which are off limits. Seriously, help me out here.

In the meantime, what I'll promise to do is not call you a whacko or a nut...or characterize your posts as tripe unworthy of a response, or equate your posts to those of some extreme banned former poster. That will help engender the spirit of rational discussion we all prefer around here.

[danwismar]

Late, late, late to the party and missed a big fun week.

F'n work, and I just bought a new crib that is a fixer upper and moved in late October. Free time has been nil.

hey man, as a centrist I loved this election. This might be the perfect form of government for us now. A fiscally conservative house to stop spending now that the business cycle is shwoing signs of wheezing back to life and the evil chimichanga that was the credit / housing bust appears to be leavin the colon of the national economy, a senate percefctly set up to do not a GD thing, and POTUS who is he has any balls at all (jury out) can veto any whack shit the wing nuts do hapen to get by the Senate.
IOW, we hve it tee'd up for 1994 - 1999 all over again.

The pendulum swung way, way too far dumb / right under W. So far that it fucked things up for years.

2008 was the required correction to set some things in motiojn, and some huge down the line issues were dealth with decisively with needed reform on the health insurance and financial industries, and some Keynsian strategic investments in sustainable energy and infrastructure -- not enough -- but a good chunk that will continue to roll forward. But that spending was unsustainable in the deficits. Time to reel 'er back in.

Sweet, sweet gridlock is coming. These morons won't come together to do a GD thing until after 2012. And for wher ethe economy / country is right now, as a centrist I love me the checks and balances.

On the TPs..... I am 100% convinced that these wankers are naive, hypocritical, racist, reactionary, petulent, undereducated dumb fucks and they are awesome for the process and the nation right now. Just the shot of passion and push back that was needed to drive it center.

NFW they get the big prizes in 2012 though, and if anyone thinks they have a bead on 2012 they are higher than Keith Murray.

JB....a second, careful reading of your original post has me admitting to myself that my first take was probably over the top. I went off on what I considered to be an unfair caricature of TP'ers, and your "not enough" on the topic of stimulus, and forgot or ignored the several areas on which we do agree. To wit..

Gridlock is good. The GOP-led House will (one hopes) apply the brakes to government spending. Divided government is usually preferable to one-party rule. The influence of the TP'ers' populism was a positive push back to the center. Some stimulus spending was inevitable and needed, though its effects aren't accurately measurable.

I reject the idea that our views are so far afield from each other...or that either view is so irrational or unworthy of discussion...that we should not engage each other in this forum.

Wonder how you feel about repealing the 17th Amendment. I don't see it as a left-right issue, and I'm curious what people think. I am ambivalent, (and not terribly well-informed) on the issue, and looking for input.

[jb]

I get it Danny, you are right wing nut.

We can't discuss as rational men. I don't bleed it to other forums though, and best I can tell, neither do you. So we got THAT going for us, which is nice.

Thus I dismiss your takes here. I just move along.

Have a weekend when it comes.

JB, Sorry, I thought this was a discussion forum, not a dismiss and move along forum.

It is when there is no point.

You are too intransigent on this topic, Dan. So in turn you view others' PsOV as such. Doesn't make you an a-hole across the board at all. Love your FB takes and some others. Just means we can't do business when it comes to chopping up events and politics. And this is just business. Not personal.

There's just no point, that's all. It's like trying to chop it up with a Limbaugh or Hannity or Olberman or Schultz. It's as fun as an ice pick to the dome.

Please clarify for me...I'm "intransigent" on which topic?

Politis. Politics my friend.

Everything is personalized anti-Obama, anti-progresive. It is cartoonish.

And who the fuck needs my validation? I think you are a wing nut whacko to the right, just as there are wing nut whackos to the left I can't have a fun, meaningful round and a bout about politics with. Never seen you support anything but a Limbaugh line. I think, if you are looking for particulars, the "Iraq war was better for the nation than the R&R Act" was pretty much the moment of clarity. The R&R Act has its issues to be certain, and the deficit is crazy (although I'm actually on the supply siders side on that one; it's the dead revenues from lagging business) , but the Iraq War and the whole WoT approach and current military budget is getting to the point hwere it is anologous to our Sicily as the modern Athens. Plus its, like, you know, a WAR?

And I'm not the mod here. Mitch is. I couldn't ban Adam Meister here. Nor would I want to. I just woudn't engage him in discussion.

So do whatever you want to do, say whatever you want to write. I'm just out of those reindeer games.

I don't come here to flame and spew. And there's enough stupidity on the airwaves and blogosphere to annoy me there. So when I come across it, I no longer get all worked up. I just dust it off and walk on. Like I said, I think you are a good egg for whatever the freak it matters, but I'm just not coming to your bar.

[danwismar]

I think, if you are looking for particulars, the "Iraq war was better for the nation than the R&R Act" was pretty much the moment of clarity.

Please don't purport to quote me by using quotation marks around something I have never said. Whatever that distortion of my position accomplishes, it is not clarity.

And I'm not looking for your validation. I enjoy the dialogue and debate. Less so though, when all you've got is ad hominem stuff.

And I'll try to remember what I've learned today. War is bad.

[Orenthal]

That is some funny stuff...

"Adam Meister" a blast from the past. I just about forgot about the guy, and what about 316...

I couldn't be on the internet b4 JB, he has a few years on me...

[FUDU]

BTW if anyone thinks this election was a nation's endorsement of the republicans :doh.

It has reached the point that we are becoming sick and tired and just wanted anything different than what we got right now, that trend will continue, which is good IMO. Probably sped up the viable third party process by 2 elections cycles if not more.

[Ziner]

2008 was the required correction to set some things in motiojn, and some huge down the line issues were dealth with decisively with needed reform on the health insurance and financial industries, and some Keynsian strategic investments in sustainable energy and infrastructure -- not enough -- but a good chunk that will continue to roll forward. But that spending was unsustainable in the deficits. Time to reel 'er back in.

What you say about things being setup about as well as they can I agree with, but...

Financial reform isn't going to do a damn thing besides increase costs for financial institutions (on top of the HC bill I might add). Not to mention add another layer of incompetence in regulating the financial markets.

If you think the people in Washington specifically Dodd and Frank are smarter than the guys running the show on Wall Street then I am not sure what to say. They will loophole the shit out of this bill. There is a reason some are calling it the Lawyer and Accountant Welfare Act of 2010. Half of the people trading derivatives don't even fully understand them yet, Frank, Dodd and the rest of congress is going to regulate it?

can't disagree with that much, Z.

But you gotta try, right?

Or do you just say "fuck it" and BOHICA?

Not sure you say fuck it, but you certainly shouldn't go around trumping up how you have saved the financial markets from ever having catastrophe again when it is essentially a joke. (yes I just used some hyperbole)

[Ziner]

On a conference call at work. Just said they expect the regulations in Frank-Dodd Bill to cost roughly 1 billion dollars. We had 19 billion in revenue last year.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

On a conference call at work. Just said they expect the regulations in Frank-Dodd Bill to cost roughly 1 billion dollars. We had 19 billion in revenue last year.

I'm totaly a Republican now.

[Ziner]

On a conference call at work. Just said they expect the regulations in Frank-Dodd Bill to cost roughly 1 billion dollars. We had 19 billion in revenue last year.

I'm totaly a Republican now.

liar

[RickNashEquilibrium]

+ 1

The real story here is the crazy political schitzophrenia from Scranton to Oshkosh, Canada to the Ohio river. Who the fuck elects Sharrod Brown and Rob Portman as their senators with any sort of coherent intelligence? And it is purey a product of an "American Me" style sodomization of the industrial middle class that has resulted in a catatonic state of fear. The industrial middle class, once the bakbone of this nation economically, are now hunkered down like Will Smith in I am Legend

That last simile is so spot f#$king on. The real problem is that smart people, the ones that care and keep themselves informed on the issues in this country, are still duped into thinking politicians give an F about them. Couple that with a full-blown capitalistic initiative in its worst form and you have your industrial middle class grasping for air after the deep plunge.

The middle is getting closer to the bottom by the minute and people my age(27) and younger aren't doing any better. If people don't think what is happening in China could ever happen here, you better check your head. Rising education costs + bigger work force + less jobs available = better educated people working for a much smaller wage. Government programs that increase spending to promote growth in infrastructure only temporarily help things, its no long term solution. Better social welfare programs coupled with more incentives to keep domestic businesses in our borders is the only viable solution I see to us getting out of this mess. Wall Street crooks and the complete mismanagement of our financial institutions also need to be more heavily regulated, but I don't know how that can be done without the government flatout saying "you can only control this much concentrated wealth." No idea how the lines of capitalism/socialism cross in that arena as it becomes a government vs private sector argument.

[Ziner]

+ 1

The real story here is the crazy political schitzophrenia from Scranton to Oshkosh, Canada to the Ohio river. Who the fuck elects Sharrod Brown and Rob Portman as their senators with any sort of coherent intelligence? And it is purey a product of an "American Me" style sodomization of the industrial middle class that has resulted in a catatonic state of fear. The industrial middle class, once the bakbone of this nation economically, are now hunkered down like Will Smith in I am Legend

That last simile is so spot f#$king on. The real problem is that smart people, the ones that care and keep themselves informed on the issues in this country, are still duped into thinking politicians give an F about them. Couple that with a full-blown capitalistic initiative in its worst form and you have your industrial middle class grasping for air after the deep plunge.


The middle is getting closer to the bottom by the minute and people my age(27) and younger aren't doing any better. If people don't think what is happening in China could ever happen here, you better check your head. Rising education costs + bigger work force + less jobs available = better educated people working for a much smaller wage. Government programs that increase spending to promote growth in infrastructure only temporarily help things, its no long term solution. Better social welfare programs coupled with more incentives to keep domestic businesses in our borders is the only viable solution I see to us getting out of this mess. Wall Street crooks and the complete mismanagement of our financial institutions also need to be more heavily regulated, but I don't know how that can be done without the government flatout saying "you can only control this much concentrated wealth." No idea how the lines of capitalism/socialism cross in that arena as it becomes a government vs private sector argument.

They cant regulate what they dont understand. Besides as much as the Wall Street crooks screw us, it is hard for me to put much faith in the Washington crooks to fix them. The QE that the fed just pulled off has the potential to snowball in to a much bigger problem if things go awry than anything that caused it... likely no, but fool proof? I have my doubts. I have read up on it and I still dont really have an opinion on it besides figuring that if shit hits the fan its going to be bad, real bad man (in Joakim Noah voice). Seems as if our economy is being dealt with as if it is a case study in business school. Between tax cuts, keynesian stimulus and QE they have pretty much blown their load... I wonder if when a recovery really gets going if it isn't determined that the best ways to fix it is luck and waiting.

[Orenthal]

The only people QE2 is helping is those who invested in commodities a couple weeks ago. Look at the % gain in silver over just the last 2 weeks. Gasoline is going through the roof. Sherwin Williams is passing on another 6-8% cost increase due to raw material costs(in da biz). The stimulus effect has long been replaced by unintended consequences of over stimulation/weak dollar.

They just fucked the one thing we had going in our favor, time. Time was slowly stabalizing the mess they already caused, now they pump another wad of funny money into the system. Money used to pay for social welfare.

Time to get aggressively pro-business, not pro-corporatist, as has been the recent history.

[jb]

Hasn't QE been going on for a while? Isn't monetizing debt more or less a practice that takes place neither routinely nor never in western economies?

What makes this round so different that it would drive inflation in one sector?

To clarify - really asking about QE, not pontificating. From what I do understand it has pros and cons. Inflation may or may not occur , it isn't a foregone conclusion that it will. I'd like to learn more form the current MBA types who have access to the latest quality research. Put me on the cheese bus.

Now I will pontificate. NFW the oil sector is a true market that responds to anything other than cartels / oligopies (OPEC & The 4 or so major producers) seeing an opportunity to make a profit grab. Is what it is. If a deer ran in front of Dick Cheney's motion detector light they'd rationalize a 20 cent hike for a quarter. It is now safe for them to come back out, like roaches at night. It's transparent.

I still say the business cycle is slowly turning a corner. Too many signs it is wheezing and chugging to life. Just needed some time to get past a bad, bad bubble burst. Like when you're hung over a little you feel better after a noon time meal. But this housing / banking shit was like chugging a bottle of cheap tequilla and a 6 of Four Lokos.

Still don't know what it all means long-term (decade). Depends on how the bounce back takes place and in what sectors I guess.

[Orenthal]

I have an Accounting Degree, but no MBA .

On the oil stuff I would generally agree if the rise in commodities was limited to oil. Seeing how the price of just about the lot, gold, silver, wheat, corn, oil, blah have spiked sharply to the announcement of QE2... Will have to see if its just a shock spike or lasting inflation.

On the business cycle I agree again. Just think time was taking care of that just fine, no need for another round of interference. We would both agree that the market/all markets are affected by perception and uncertainty as much as hard figures, right? I think this QE2, in my unqualified opinion, is just another shot of stimulus to an already wired crackhead. I think we have hit the point where the marginal returns are becoming negative.

btw QE1 was buying mortgage backed securities to the tune of 1.25 trillion. I believe that is still going on. QE2 is the buying of long term US Treasury bonds.

Funny, and again in my opinion, the only people defending this thing "in the know" are some of the Fed Presidents themselves.

[Orenthal]

JB, here is just a fantastic, balanced article on the whole thing. Top notch pedigrees attached to the opinions within...

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/columnists/chall/stories/DN-Hallonline_10bus.State.Edition1.3d7e691.html

I'd probably agree most with...

Dallas investment fund manager Kyle Bass describes the policy is a sleight of hand with the soaring national debt.

"We're trying to counter-cyclically spend. Push our problems down the road. And never face the fact that we were too leveraged as an economy," said Bass, who expects the dollar to take a whacking. "I don't know how many of your problems that you've kicked down the road ended up getting better later on. But in my life, it's almost none of them."

Frankly, McTeer, who is now with the National Center for Policy Analysis, thinks all this gnashing of teeth is overblown.

"Everybody's treating this as a very unusual, draconian thing that's extremely risky, probably won't work and likely to have adverse consequences. I think they're overdoing it."

I just think we hit the point where stimulus of any kind is percieved as negative, and the economy/market reacts in kind.

[FUDU]

Oil is a scam and that is all there is to it. From what I've learned it takes 90 days for crude to go from the barrel to the gas pump, yet price hikes take 24 hours due to "you name the reason". Hell the oil on tankers changes hands in trading 3,4 or 5 times before that damn ship reaches port.

It's all about conditioning from those that have the power to raise the price. There isn't a person on this forum that isn't conditioned to the price of gasoline now. If you saw it for $2.15 you'd think it was freakin Xmas. Yet when it goes up to $3.11 on a regular basis, you'll bitch for a couple weeks but eventually just accept it.

[jb]

Good stuff OJ. Thanks. I still just have a peripheral understanding of debt monetization, but this explains it better.

Seems like we're becoming Japan's economy but with debt issues mounting.

Kick ass.

Hey, what did you think of some of this:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/11/wonkbook_the_debt_commission_r.html

[Ziner]

JB, I am going to be up at school this weekend, I am going to see if I can find any journal articles on QE. I know what it is, I am just not sure of the repurcussions (long and short) and benefits (long, short and actual) of doing it... and I am not convinced many are. If I get my hands on a good one I will send it your way.

[Ziner]

oh and concerning the debt commission... really interesting stuff. If they simplified the tax code to make it more transparent and less confusing and it ultimately raised taxes on some and lowered on others but became more fair I would be ok with that. They have carved apart the tax code to give certain people (dare I say voting blocks) different breaks on different things. Credits for children, credits for student loan interest, mortgage interest, buying a hybrid, putting in energy efficient windows, etc, etc, etc... There will never be a flat rate, but I personally would bitch less at least if people making the same income as I do pay the same amount in taxes. Sure would be nice to cut out some of the tax sheltering going on by the rich and most businesses in the country. Lower the corporate tax rate here to try to disincentivize that or just make it straight up illegal in some manner. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-2 ... holes.html Gotta love the double dutch oven method they are pulling off. They need to figure out a way to keep that shit from happening, and perhaps lowering the rates on corporations is the way to take care of some of it. What is the point of a 35% corporate rate if no one pays it.

The railing on the SS changes are hysterical and just dishonest. Raising SS benefits by a month every two years is about the best way you can do it to avoid people from going nuts and they go nuts anyway. All the people bitching will be dead by then.

Cut the military budget, just be damn sure to give them what they need, but R&D certainly can be cut with out harming a thing. The military budget is on the table and I am glad to hear some of the GOP on board with that finally.

Hopefully the bozo's can look at this thing and take a good chunk of this and put it to work. The first thing I thought was that it must be a decent plan if some people on both sides hate it and love it.

[Orenthal]

Oil is a scam and that is all there is to it. From what I've learned it takes 90 days for crude to go from the barrel to the gas pump, yet price hikes take 24 hours due to "you name the reason". Hell the oil on tankers changes hands in trading 3,4 or 5 times before that damn ship reaches port.

It's all about conditioning from those that have the power to raise the price. There isn't a person on this forum that isn't conditioned to the price of gasoline now. If you saw it for $2.15 you'd think it was freakin Xmas. Yet when it goes up to $3.11 on a regular basis, you'll bitch for a couple weeks but eventually just accept it.

That is because Exxon doesn't charge you for the product... If we didn't have a commodities market to smooth and hedge we'd be truly fucked.

[Orenthal]

I see the debt commission as bi-partisan political cover. This is going nowhere. The debt problem is aching for a real leader. The new GOP-elects' seem like they want to take on the issue, but I am in wait and see mode.

[jb]

All the people bitching will be dead by then

Until the last 2 weeks I thought this was Randy Lerner's long-term strategy...

[jb]

I see the debt commission as bi-partisan political cover. This is going nowhere. The debt problem is aching for a real leader. The new GOP-elects' seem like they want to take on the issue, but I am in wait and see mode.

Meh. Never happen. Neither group has the will becasue the American people lack the stomach.

The left has social entitlement programs and the right has defense. Both are the real issues and discretionary has shrunk to a piece of the pie that isn't quite inconsequential, but is far from effectively solving any problems. These two areas that must be cut to solve the problem are the two sacred cows neither will ultimately touch in meaningful ways until/unless we go USSR circa 1990.

Best we can hope for is that a couple ideas get through in some watered down format if these ass clowns get their thumbs out their mouth to do something constructive. The comission, however, just goes to show how solveable all this shit could be if we didn't have the strong preference toward non-scarry incremental government in our national DNA.

[danwismar]

Mark the calendar. JB and I agreeing on something outside of football.

I suspect this is why the GOP isn't doing a lot of crowing after the election. They know that they just got appointed pharmacist, and the patient ain't going to like the prescription.

If they have the courage to do what needs to be done, it will be political poison. So, those of us who have been watching politicians all our lives are doubting that they'll change all of a sudden into something they've never been.

In general, the commission report does seem to be getting a slightly warmer reception on the right than on the left, from what I've seen early on. YMMV

[Orenthal]

Too busy to post links, just check the DOW, seems like every other country in the world is fighting inflationary worries, while we are pumping dollars into the system to stop deflation.

Anyone see any deflation in the marketplace outside of housing? I know gas and food sure aren't cheaper. Most commodities are going skyhigh???

They totally f'd us royally here... Time was working its magic. Time is such a wonderful thing. Has a way of just smoothing out all our errors and misplaced feeling of control.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Too busy to post links, just check the DOW, seems like every other country in the world is fighting inflationary worries, while we are pumping dollars into the system to stop deflation.

Anyone see any deflation in the marketplace outside of housing? I know gas and food sure aren't cheaper. Most commodities are going skyhigh???

They totally f'd us royally here... Time was working its magic. Time is such a wonderful thing. Has a way of just smoothing out all our errors and misplaced feeling of control.

I'm actually more Republican than you because I own more guns. So suck on that you butt fucking Commie Hippie fruit salad.