Haven't Rochambeaued each other over politics in a while

[jb]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/42745

Obviously as a centrist I think this whole arrangement is over the line fucked, but I'll be interetsed in how all you wing nuts tell me this is normal.

[peeker643]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/42745

Obviously as a centrist I think this whole arrangement is over the line fucked, but I'll be interetsed in how all you wing nuts tell me this is normal.

Fair and balanced is their credo.

How can they fuck that up?

Seriously, you're forcing this one into covg like DA on 3rd and 12.

It is what it is. Fair and balanced doesn't exist on any network. Read, watch, listen and make up your mind.

No?

Too much to ask ain't it? I knew it would be.

Well then just do what your daddy did and his daddy before him did and make sure you draw a line in the sand between your PoV and reality so both sides can be clearly delineated.

Ah shit...political ads starting too. Snow soon after that....
Season keeps getting worse.

Oh yeah.... I've never met anyone from the biggest liberal to the rightest of right wingers who didn't consider themselves a centrist.

[jb]

It is what it is. Fair and balanced doesn't exist on any network

True, but bias is not blatant propaganda and candidate promotion via employment and easy soap baox. That continuum should be obvious to anyone but a wing nut.

If rachel Maddow were running for governor, I'd say the same damn thing.

political ads starting too. Snow soon after that....
Season keeps getting worse.

HBO baby

[Ziner]

I don't know, for it to be over the line you would have to believe that cable news has a speck of journalistic integrity left. FoxNews and MSNBC are what they are, anyone who has watched 2 minutes of either channel knows that or is lying to themselves.

While it is pretty tricky situation if they pretend to care it isn't much different than KO or Maddow launching softballs to congresspersons (is that PC?) daily or letting Howard Dean guest host Countdown. Most of the people that watch any of these shows already know who they are voting for or are smart enough to see through the rhetoric.

I'll be honest I watch MSNBC more than FoxNews anymore, but I have never seen any of these people on, when and how much are they on? Gingrich is the only one I have seen personally. Then again I don't watch it that much. FWIW Matthews is the only one hanging on to a string of integrity. O'Reilly seems to be grasping for one to his credit.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Bleah...

Doesn't Obama have a network crew with an office in the White House now? ABC?

If so do you care and did you care when it went down?

...cuz I do find it interesting that all your 'centrist' views seem to be anti republican and have a pic of Palin in the link...she must give you wood...

You want centrist I'll give you centrist....... The worst thing to happen on 9-11 was that those planes didn't fly into the Capitol Bldg while Congress and the Senate were in session.

I don't watch...basically cuz I don't give a rats ass anymore...I just reaed the headlines on all the websites where the bias is obvious in which stories each prints/buries

One says go left, I go right. One says go right, I go left. Anyone says to stop, I run them over

[Orenthal]

Wasn't the only one that noticed the "centrist" qualifier always follows an obvious right-of-center critique. No emoticons needed.

I'm a flaming right winger. Forget this fence sitting bs.

[swerb]

Not sure what there is to be critical of Fox on here.

Gingrich has been employed by the station for many years, and people said the same thing about Fox allegedly giving him a platform for candidacy before the '08 election, which he never even ran for.

Inking Palin was the biggest network no-brainer ever. Whatever they're paying her (and I'm sure it's exorbitant) is a bargain. Shes the ultimate love/hate, ratings bonanza of a personality. At the same time, no smart Republican who wants the White Office back wants any part of her being the one running against Obama. I would not be surprised if her mad FNC comp, big time speaking fees, and operate at her own pace schedule lead to her staying in this capacity and not running for office. It's what I would do.

Huckabee is a likable folksy guy that was laid to waste by a batch of uber-shitty foes in the last Republican primary. He can't beat Obama either, he's not strong enough, especially with the economy as the #1 campaign factor. Good VP candidate.

Santorum - non factor.

It's smart business. The types of moves that have Fox absolutely slaughtering their competition. When you have such a massive stronghold on the cable news market, it's not just wing nuts that are watching. Not sure what Fox is supposed to do ... terminate their contracts cause they may run for President? The same way Newt was supposed to 4 years ago? Says right in the article, as soon as they announce their candidacy, their contracts are terminated.

Me personally, I am hoping Newt runs. He and Romney are the guys that can win and can get this country out of this mess. Obama is vulnerable. New poll out shows that just 18% of the country is happy about Obamacare, his flagship political move. That's disastrous. 800 billion in stimulus money spent - absolutely nothing to show for it.

We're learning the hard way that you can't spend your way out of a jobless recession. We have a President and an administration full of people that haven't accomoplished anything significant in their lives, either in the private sector or politically. A bunch of all fluff politicians that haven't run anything in their lives, trying to rescue the worlds largest economy.

What has happened with the economy has been so predictable. Obama has business owners terrified. Between nationalizing health care, threatening to raise the taxes on the vast majority of small business owners, and just wasting 800 billion dollars of taxpayer money on a stimulus plan that has done absolutely nothing … no one is hiring in this country. And nothing will improve one iota until people start hiring. Real unemployment is about 17% right now once you factor in the under-employed people and people that are working part time that want to be working full time.

And nothing is going to change anytime soon. Obama fired his bullets. And missed.

[peeker643]

C'mon Rich- You been doing this far too long to leave out, "I'm a centrist" regardless of your affiliations.

[jb]

Then you don't read what I write OJ. You really don't. It is just hat 80% of the time the right panders to the dumbest common denominator and it makes it easy for a rationalist like myself to puke bile. And yes, you are a right winger. Onto the next one.

Swerb makes a shitload of good points. What Fox is doing is great for business. Fox's business. But let me make an anology here. Does anyone like what American Idol has done for the music/record industry? Is the right approach to pluck a bunch of people and expose them nationlly and then the most favorite wins and get sthe deal in an abbreviated process, or is it better to struggle and hone craft in bars and clubs? That's what i see Fox as doing with the GOP this election. Is that good?

I think it is possble to have a rational discussion on this withoudevo. I actually think there is a a counterpoint that can perhaps make this a positive. The question is whether ethically it is healty for this to occur and whether people are as wise and discerning as Peeker and FMB suggests one needs to be. personally, I see nutty sheep out there to my left and right.

Swerb is right that you can not spend your way out of a recesion. It takes enterprise and capita nd real value added. But the things is that the USA macro economy is alot like the Browns. Tweaks in monetary policy won't do much becasaue money is like free - what money there is. Playing with tax rates is toxic to long-term health gien the debt, unless we can be almost assurred they will rsult in real economic growth and not pocket lining or overseas investment. A government can't do that and manufactuing always follows the least cost of capital.

The health care isue is a long-term fix. And no one, right or left, knows if it was done "right". It is an absolute truth that biusinesses big and small now are waiting to see what the 800 pound guirila brings with health care rates next year. Mine is, your probably is as well. But what was happening was unsustaianable. Things had to change and real wages weren't rising fast enough to place the burdon all on individuals. Some collectivization to control costs is necesarry in that industry from everything I've ever read or heard that was remotely objective.

I will suggest that those who criticize the stimulus plan don't know what is in it. The quick fix shit is about done. While Rich is 100% right you can't spend your way out of a recession, no one really knows for sure how bad it could have been. The conservative fed and W treasury types will tell you it would have been much worse, if not a full scale melt down. So it is hard to say what TARP, W's bail out, stoped bleeding, and what the early stimulus did with the public sector unemployment when priate sector unemployment was tanking at an alrming rate.

Yeah, are there stupid as prorams in the stimulus? Has to be. It is the gub-mint. But as I've read, the majority of stimulus is invested in these areas, and most of it has yet o actualy kick in (which might also give opportunities for a roll back?)

- Raods and bridges and infrastructure. How cn anyone argue this is inherently bad. And despite FUDU crying about lakewood, I;ve never seen so much quality construction fixing raods , even in Y town.

- Green energy initiatives and seed manufacturing. This is the big one, the game changer. The real socialists in China, who are kicking our asses, are investing billions. So are other countries. We HAVE to ensure that quality value added production of things like batteries, wind turbines, autos, are made in the 48 and not elsewhere. We absulutely have to. We have to see the oil cartels and lobby receed away and let renewable energy take its place so we can get the hell out the middle east and produce these things at home, stopping the money transfer Pickens talks about (that flaming socialist).

- All in all, when you strip away the deamonization and the Dinesh Desouza/Gingrich nonsense, the crux of the problem I see is that the Obama agenda is really about rationally fixing the stuff that despite the inevitable ups and downs of market based business cycles has been plaguing the macro economy since about 1973 that no one has taken on becasue of expediency and political courage. Bubba tried for a while, but Hillary and his team's dogma fucked him up. HW fixed the deficit with his brass balled decision that resulted in political suicide. But that's all I've seen, personally in my lifetime.

Look, we have been putting band aid upon band aid since Reagan gave up on his promises (economic) in 1982 and his admin just said "fuck it" and started the biggest Keynesian program since FDR with the defense industry. Problem is, except for Clinto's term wheich coincided with the infornation revolution that increased productivity on an unsustaiable exponetial scale, we've just kept using the Chineese credit card. That's gota stp, and when t does, there will be pain. But to keep tyhat from being a disaster, you have to mitigate, and a central government can and should play the role it has since Alexander hamilton envisioned that role. Part of that is spurring grown in new industries and reigning in the major problems that are hemmoraging red ink: health care, carbon-based energy transfer, internationally funded deficit, and also unchecked military spening to maintain this empire required for carbn based energy, and lastly, entitlements.

I want to wait a few more years to see if theose who look at this macro issue and understand it and hav ethe guts to ride it out have time for their plans to take root. I also am looking forward to a split congress and presidency creating the environment of greater certainty that Rich talks about so the positive modest signs in the business cycle right now can gain some momentum. But not at the expense of making the long-term fixes.

[swerb]

Good points JB. But there was no infrastructure in the 800 billion. Just added another 50 billion ... just for infrastructure.

That's the problem. No one knows whats in the 800 billion. Even the people who voted for it. And lord knows how much pork with a # that big. Talk about doomed to fail.

Year and a half later. Weekly jobless claims are higher than we were a year ago. Non farm payrolls (which need to grow by like 200k just to account for population growth) fell by 54,000 in August ... almost 18 months after 800 billion that was aimed at creating jobs was pumped into the economy.

I am a believer that America, to a large degree, should be run like a business. Yet you have people that have prolly never even balanced their own checkbooks making these trillion dollar decisions that no successful business owner in his right mind would ever make. Record spending with little accountability as to where the dollars are actually going and no real way to track its effectiveness. When spending isn't even the answer with what's going on with the economy right now.

Makes you wanna play flag football with Mitt Romney.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

I like talking about Newt...I like when Democrats always bring up his past and slam him for his book deal that he ended up taking $1 for...

Then when Billary sat in the throne, it was OK for her to make millions writing her own book that was pimped every night on the news.

I'm curious if anyone else here ever saw Newt's college history class televised every Saturday morning years ago from UGGA and what your opinion of Newt is if you saw it?

Forget the divorces, book deals and TV appearances....did you ever see him teach? Because when it comes to the founding of this country, its progress and the reasons why, he's fucking brilliant!

[Fire Marshall Bill]

We're learning the hard way that you can't spend your way out of a jobless recession. We have a President and an administration full of people that haven't accomoplished anything significant in their lives, either in the private sector or politically. A bunch of all fluff politicians that haven't run anything in their lives, trying to rescue the worlds largest economy.

What has happened with the economy has been so predictable. Obama has business owners terrified. Between nationalizing health care, threatening to raise the taxes on the vast majority of small business owners, and just wasting 800 billion dollars of taxpayer money on a stimulus plan that has done absolutely nothing … no one is hiring in this country. And nothing will improve one iota until people start hiring. Real unemployment is about 17% right now once you factor in the under-employed people and people that are working part time that want to be working full time.

A-Bomb ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'd bet there's more construction equipment being repoed than cars & houses combined and in 35 yrs of business I've never seen it worse.

The bottom has fallen out and the hole just keeps getting bigger

[jb]

Good points JB. But there was no infrastructure in the 800 billion. Just added another 50 billion ... just for infrastructure.

That's the problem. No one knows whats in the 800 billion. Even the people who voted for it. And lord knows how much pork with a # that big. Talk about doomed to fail.

Year and a half later. Weekly jobless claims are higher than we were a year ago. Non farm payrolls (which need to grow by like 200k just to account for population growth) fell by 54,000 in August ... almost 18 months after 800 billion that was aimed at creating jobs was pumped into the economy.

I am a believer that America, to a large degree, should be run like a business. Yet you have people that have prolly never even balanced their own checkbooks making these trillion dollar decisions that no successful business owner in his right mind would ever make. Record spending with little accountability as to where the dollars are actually going and no real way to track its effectiveness. When spending isn't even the answer with what's going on with the economy right now.

Makes you wanna play flag football with Mitt Romney.

Thing is the business of Mitt was bsically arbitrage, wasn't it?

Great experience. Wish Bloomberg would get in play, but the christian right would never have that.

I liked Newt's resurrection up until about th epast 3 months, but he's gone off the deep end pandering tea baggers. Is he bright enough that it's all a smokescreen?

And I'd welcome discussion that no one knows what's in the $ 800 billion. I still maintian that there just hasn't been time enough to execute fully.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 66,00.html


http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 83,00.html

Not to say there wasn't a BBQ full of pork. There is. But it is the same with blunt edge tax cuts. I guess my point is that most of this was designed to be more of a long-term treatment than an immediate pick me up. I think it was sold wrong or in a misleading way. It isn't stimulus, it is investment.

But at the center your points can't bel ost. Shit is languishing, and it isn't up to the government to fix it completely, and the current positical climate is creating huge uncertainty that is freezing capital, prolonging short term business cycle recovery. That's just a fact.

[FUDU]

JB believe I am a big proponent of fixing roads (infrastructure in general), especially in CTown. My whole thing is if we can't use the money we have to fix the truly important things like education and the economy (year after year) then let's at least fix the roads, which they are in desperate need of. BUT, don't do it half ass and incorrectly, do it right the first time. Do it so it doesn't need to be done for 25 years +, instead of band aid resurfacing that needs redone 11 years later but doesn't get done for at least 25.

Rich is dead nuts straight on when he says this country needs to be run like a business, hell people in general should run their own lives like a business. Instead of advising our young people to take Spanish in HS (or college) we should INSIST they take more economic and personal finance courses, courses that actually make a difference and give you something to use in life. So few young people have a clue about personal finance, lots of middle aged do not either.

[Ziner]

The health care isue is a long-term fix. And no one, right or left, knows if it was done "right". It is an absolute truth that biusinesses big and small now are waiting to see what the 800 pound guirila brings with health care rates next year. Mine is, your probably is as well. But what was happening was unsustaianable. Things had to change and real wages weren't rising fast enough to place the burdon all on individuals. Some collectivization to control costs is necesarry in that industry from everything I've ever read or heard that was remotely objective.

I don't have the energy to address everything, however

Not sure how you consider it a long-term fix when it in no way addressed costs. It addressed coverage which other than bringing more to the pot, doesn't lower costs. Subsidizing people's health insurance, getting rid of life time caps, covering pre-existing conditions, and all that stuff may be the right thing to do, but that costs money and it costs me, you, and our employers more money. So if everyone is expecting their health care rates to rise and businesses are in a holding pattern how is this any more sustainable? The burden hasn't been alleviated

For as much as people love to talk about how the republicans and Bush just ignoring health care the HSA's did more to bring down costs than anything Obama has proposed. They still need some tweaking to make them more user friendly, but how is that not a better idea for everyone? High deductible plan and put money away for the non-catastrophic medical needs. My company has straight up said they are afraid of the rising costs and are taking away most of our plans. Everyone will be forced in to high deductible plans and they will start putting money in our HSA. I for one am excited that this is the route they are taking, I haven't been to the doctor in a decade, I would have loved to have roughly 10+ grand in my HSA right now. However, of course, the whole HSA, which is a reasonable path to drive down costs, is being deconstructed by Obama through taxes and more limitations. Taking OTC's off this is ridiculous. There are many OTC's that are much more cost effective for the whole, but for the individual taking away OTC's from HSA's will likely drive people to attempt to get Rx's to get a pill that is covered by their insurance, once again driving up our rates.

HC is a tricky subject, all of the health care bill is not garbage, but by not addressing the costs they just continued the unsustainablity. Mr. Long-Term Thinker was more concerned with a political victory than having a real bill. Even a centrist like you should be able to see that

[FUDU]

Things had to change and real wages weren't rising fast enough to place the burdon all on individuals.

Real wages don't rise fast enough to sustain much at all, nor for people to carry any type of long term burdens. That is the whole problem in a nutshell, everything goes up all the time EXCEPT wages.

[Ziner]

I tell you one thing, wages aren't going up anywhere as fast as the cost of education. Talk about out of control. The demand for college educations for careers and jobs that don't need them are ridiculous. However, in this job market though you gotta play the game. You have elementary teachers out there with master's degrees. Student loan debt might be the next crack in the wall. Too many people with too much student loan debt with out enough jobs paying enough in wages to make all the payments. My friend is going to finish his podiatry residency with 250K in loans. Going to have to take the first $40,000 of his salary to just make the payments.

[jb]

HC is a tricky subject, all of the health care bill is not garbage, but by not addressing the costs they just continued the unsustainablity. Mr. Long-Term Thinker was more concerned with a political victory than having a real bill. Even a centrist like you should be able to see that

Ziner, You are going to have to sell me better on HSA's. I see HSA's like using a piggy bank to retire. Just no realistic way to put enough into pay what a significant medical setback does to an individual collectively. Look, there is no possible way I have received a feeaking fraction of my insurance premums. They have largely been a waste, and when I did have an elective big ticket or two, it all came out of my pocket.

Butt.... when the big one does strike I shuld be covered - at least if they play by the rules. That's why the collective insurance model works and not the individual savings route.

I could be wrong, but I am very, very skeptical that HSA's did anything to hold down costs. They work OK for my co pays and scrips, and I use it that way, but to pay for bypass one day? Pretty incredible to contemplate. You;'ll have to show me how that is even possible with the limited market orces in the industry that really has no market and is inelastic. Possible that you meant the HMO model of the 90's and early otts nefore people lacked the stomach for bureacratically rationed care?

As for what went through? How were you supposed to mandate cost control? They chose not to go ccentralized, scialist single payer. The reforms ARE mostly market based. the otcome is basically a regulated free market. There's not even a public option. Thus the market will need time to eact and sort it all out, and we'll see what enforcement mechanisms evolve under Warren, who I think if brilliant in interviews. It is a game of 52 pick up and the cards are still in the air. No one can say with full credibility all this will wraught and no one can say that it isn't making business hesitant. The only debate is whether the long term solutions as enacted will be better than the trajectory of failure that was going on unabated.

I'd like to avoid politics on every subject Z. Know you can. But clearly, once the ball got rolling, Rahm spoke the realpolitik truth that any bill was better than no bill, and vlearly the GOP had no fuckin interest at al in doing anything other than a) what has been done vefore and not worked, and b) would hve blocked anything that camf from te other side of the aisle even if they supported it 8 montsh earlier. How the game is played. We all know that.

[jb]

I tell you one thing, wages aren't going up anywhere as fast as the cost of education. Talk about out of control. The demand for college educations for careers and jobs that don't need them are ridiculous. However, in this job market though you gotta play the game. You have elementary teachers out there with master's degrees. Student loan debt might be the next crack in the wall. Too many people with too much student loan debt with out enough jobs paying enough in wages to make all the payments. My friend is going to finish his podiatry residency with 250K in loans. Going to have to take the first $40,000 of his salary to just make the payments.

He should have been a doctor (Obscure Seinfeld reference).

Student loan debt is out of control. But I am not sure why you are singularly qualified to decide the credentials required in every inductry. maybe your own career area for sure, but across the board?

[FUDU]

HC is a tricky subject, all of the health care bill is not garbage, but by not addressing the costs they just continued the unsustainablity. Mr. Long-Term Thinker was more concerned with a political victory than having a real bill. Even a centrist like you should be able to see that

Ziner, You are going to have to sell me better on HSA's. I see HSA's like using a piggy bank to retire. Just no realistic way to put enough into pay what a significant medical setback does to an individual collectively. Look, there is no possible way I have received a feeaking fraction of my insurance premums. They have largely been a waste, and when I did have an elective big ticket or two, it all came out of my pocket.B

I'm not Ziner but let me try, HSA's are not designed for your example at least to my understanding. They are designed for a young healthy individual that takes at least some responsibility in maintaining their good health. They are designed to help sustain and maintain instead of recovering and taking on a major health concern. I love my HSA, if I lose it I will be one pissed of SOB, it is working great for me...and you know how much I eat Chipotle's.

[jb]

HC is a tricky subject, all of the health care bill is not garbage, but by not addressing the costs they just continued the unsustainablity. Mr. Long-Term Thinker was more concerned with a political victory than having a real bill. Even a centrist like you should be able to see that

Ziner, You are going to have to sell me better on HSA's. I see HSA's like using a piggy bank to retire. Just no realistic way to put enough into pay what a significant medical setback does to an individual collectively. Look, there is no possible way I have received a feeaking fraction of my insurance premums. They have largely been a waste, and when I did have an elective big ticket or two, it all came out of my pocket.B

I'm not Ziner but let me try, HSA's are not designed for your example at least to my understanding. They are designed for a young healthy individual that takes at least some responsibility in maintaining their good health. They are designed to help sustain and maintain instead of recovering and taking on a major health concern. I love my HSA, if I lose it I will be one pissed of SOB, it is working great for me...and you know how much I eat Chipotle's.

So you sock away X in a HSA. Does it just sit there and you plan on using it to offset a large event, or just pay in what you need for copays, minors, and scripts?

That's the education question you can help me understand better.

As far as the rest, explan to me how that holds down costs. Can you effectively shop Docs? I thought it was more expensive to ay outside of an insurance pool sticker-price mode?

[Ziner]

It holds the costs down because 1. your insurance premiums are much lower and instead you put that money in your HSA (often matched by your employer because theirs is lower too, it will be matched in my case). 2. Since it is coming out of your pocket, you go to the doctor when really necessary, not because you have a tickle in your throat. 3. since you are paying the first XXX dollars of your insurance you are sure to use that insurance in the most efficient manner and not go to the emergency room for a hangnail. Keep in mind this is all in theory and generalizations, there are always exceptions to every rule. Now some might argue that people will avoid going to treatment because they have to pay for it. I would argue that since the money is tax free and can't be used for anything but retirement and/or medical expenses what is holding you back.

[FUDU]

So you sock away X in a HSA. Does it just sit there and you plan on using it to offset a large event, or just pay in what you need for copays, minors, and scripts?

That's the education question you can help me understand better.

As far as the rest, explan to me how that holds down costs. Can you effectively shop Docs? I thought it was more expensive to ay outside of an insurance pool sticker-price mode?

I personally do not use many RX's, but use it for that purpose if need be. I am no "model" of perfect health but thanks to my attempts at responsibility, my genetics and God (if you want to call it that) I am pretty healthy, so I use it for the obscure chance I need minor attention if I get sick. Also use it for my gastro issues, been diagnosed with Acid Reflux (but do not have the usual symptoms) so there is always a possibility of me needing a gastro exam in which they go in through the throat. My HSA savings could and should take care of something like that. As far as a CHD or something along those lines, runs in my family, I by no means expect it to be used for that nor plan on saving for such as event, it is still too hard to know the odds of that and really do we know why CHD occurs...we think we do, but I say pfft to a lot of it.

As far as shopping docs that ties into just how healthy one is IMO, I mean I have the same doc I had prior to HSA's even existing, why should I shop for a doc knowing the above about me? I see a minor cost savings only b/c I son't use HC much, but if and when I do is when the savings kicks in as far as pre taxed money in the HSA, call it a savings if you want, nickel and dime stuff but stuff none the less.

I also like the flexibility of being able to change the X I put away in HSA.

IMO an HSA is more about an avenue that never existed before. An avenue to help us recognize the need to be prepared for HC concerns regardless of how big or small. To be honest I never saved one dime in advance for future HC costs until I was offered the HSA option, really how many people did? I just paid my month by month HC premium and lived day by day.

[jb]

It holds the costs down because 1. your insurance premiums are much lower and instead you put that money in your HSA (often matched by your employer because theirs is lower too, it will be matched in my case). 2. Since it is coming out of your pocket, you go to the doctor when really necessary, not because you have a tickle in your throat. 3. since you are paying the first XXX dollars of your insurance you are sure to use that insurance in the most efficient manner and not go to the emergency room for a hangnail. Keep in mind this is all in theory and generalizations, there are always exceptions to every rule. Now some might argue that people will avoid going to treatment because they have to pay for it. I would argue that since the money is tax free and can't be used for anything but retirement and/or medical expenses what is holding you back.

Interesting position. So without anything radical, you could enact HSA's and pump up co-pays to where they are more like deducatbles.

Not trying to poke hole just to take sides here, but here is my question set.

Don't medical pros tell us we SHOULD go to the doctor if we suspect something is wrong? isn't early detection something the medicl community supports? Wouldn't this potentiall raise costs as catastrphic illnesses go undetected until they are huge ticket items?

And I still se no way how item 1 is causally connected. You still need insuarnce. Or is this just the reality of the program cost model -- admittedly, I don't work in HR / insurance, so I don't know. I'm just wrapping around theory.

Don't think I don't hear you on some of this and make the mistake I am hell bent on dogma. It makes me sick that I and you help make Tom Kruse a billionare and I know lots of dumasses with no responsibility rasie costs due to behaviors when healthy and sick..

[jb]

EWhat is CHD, FUDU?

And I don't thnk HA's are "bad". I have one. I just don't see them as more than a drop in the bucket on the macro issue, sort of like when folks rail on earmarks as the deficit casue. But I am asking you all for more facts as to how they can be used as more than a co-pay, deductable hedge and scrips fund.

God fobid I leran something useful....

[Ziner]

I tell you one thing, wages aren't going up anywhere as fast as the cost of education. Talk about out of control. The demand for college educations for careers and jobs that don't need them are ridiculous. However, in this job market though you gotta play the game. You have elementary teachers out there with master's degrees. Student loan debt might be the next crack in the wall. Too many people with too much student loan debt with out enough jobs paying enough in wages to make all the payments. My friend is going to finish his podiatry residency with 250K in loans. Going to have to take the first $40,000 of his salary to just make the payments.

He should have been a doctor (Obscure Seinfeld reference).

Student loan debt is out of control. But I am not sure why you are singularly qualified to decide the credentials required in every inductry. maybe your own career area for sure, but across the board?

I am certainly not qualified, never pretended to be, just stated the obvious disconnect between the tasks done in a lot of jobs and the myth that college helps you perform those tasks. Not to say college is completely useless, just saying the the market is flooded with college degrees and good luck getting a job with out one even if it is really necessary. A college degree has become the new standard to get a job. Meanwhile for my parents generation that high school diploma and no student loan debt got you the same job. There is just generally a lot of waste in a 4 year degree too. Art History or my physical education credits certainly hasn't helped me in my career.

You dont see the humor in elementary teachers having masters degrees? What would you possible take from a 4 year bachelors and apply it to that job that you couldn't have learned in a 2 year associates, but that is not how the game is played. Not picking on teachers, there are plenty like it, just pointing out a discrepency I observe in training vs. job production.

Like DU said in the other thread. The opportunity cost in going to college is high, and I feel as if there is a serious disconnect in the cost of education, what is needed for a paticular career, what is demanded by the market for that career and then the compensation for the career. It is something that wasnt fully explained or understood by me I will tell you that much, and I am not even swimming in debt.

[exiledbuckeye]

I tell you one thing, wages aren't going up anywhere as fast as the cost of education. Talk about out of control. The demand for college educations for careers and jobs that don't need them are ridiculous. However, in this job market though you gotta play the game. You have elementary teachers out there with master's degrees. Student loan debt might be the next crack in the wall. Too many people with too much student loan debt with out enough jobs paying enough in wages to make all the payments. My friend is going to finish his podiatry residency with 250K in loans. Going to have to take the first $40,000 of his salary to just make the payments.

I don't understand why student loan debt isn't a bigger political issue right now. You want consumer-driven spending to boost the economy? Forgive student loan debt as a "stimulus". Tons of us out there in the 25-30 range with a shitload of debt that would be buying houses, cars, and spending money if that $1000 a month payment was suddenly gone. So simple - which is why politicians aren't behind it.

[FUDU]

EWhat is CHD, FUDU?

And I don't thnk HA's are "bad". I have one. I just don't see them as more than a drop in the bucket on the macro issue, sort of like when folks rail on earmarks as the deficit casue. But I am asking you all for more facts as to how they can be used as more than a co-pay, deductable hedge and scrips fund.

God fobid I leran something useful....

Coronary Heart Disease, sorry figured you knew. Just another way of using the catastrophic heart attack example. HSA will not get you out of that bind.

I'm not sure if HSA can be used to solve a problem this big, like anything else it is not for everyone. But they should not be thrown out with the bath water, and IIRC there has been talk of that with the new HCR crap we have. ?

[FUDU]

Mix matching topics but I think we can get by, but Ziner is right on the student debt angle. You want me to go to school (not that there is anything wrong with that) and pay a shit load to do so. However in order to do so you want me to incur a lot of debt. Yet when it comes time to hire you don't want to pay a more reasonable wage for the potential that you claim is validated by that piece of paper called a degree. Then you sit there and scratch your head over economic scenarios trying to figure out why there are often so few people with no debt, no real education and not fitting for hire.

you = system

[jb]

Z - I'm a huge fellow traveller with you on baccalaureate curricular relevance. More than you could possibly know. Preach on my brotha. Pure liberal arts for it's own silo disciplinary sake outside of a well designed and articulated outcomes/competency based baccalureate education is nothing but politically motivted laziness on the part of the faculty of any given institution. Just no excuse.

What I find humorous, however, is your knee-jerk certainty that advanced higher education can't possibly play a significant role in K - 6 education. Borders on hubris to me. But then again, I'm a parent and I value this stuff.

[jb]

EWhat is CHD, FUDU?

And I don't thnk HA's are "bad". I have one. I just don't see them as more than a drop in the bucket on the macro issue, sort of like when folks rail on earmarks as the deficit casue. But I am asking you all for more facts as to how they can be used as more than a co-pay, deductable hedge and scrips fund.

God fobid I leran something useful....

Coronary Heart Disease, sorry figured you knew. Just another way of using the catastrophic heart attack example. HSA will not get you out of that bind.

I'm not sure if HSA can be used to solve a problem this big, like anything else it is not for everyone. But they should not be thrown out with the bath water, and IIRC there has been talk of that with the new HCR crap we have. ?

Got you man. That's where a large chunk of my HSA goes - to pay for my statins ! Keep close on the LDL numbers and start those asap unless you is pristine. And mix in some choicken and pork with no cream and cheese at chipotle.... ;-)

[Ziner]

Interesting position. So without anything radical, you could enact HSA's and pump up co-pays to where they are more like deducatbles.

Sure, but if people actually had to pay from their HSA, aren't they going to be aware of costs. Perhaps the capitalist in me hopes that by making the consumer aware of costs and potentially ask questions about the cost of procedures it will help drive down costs. I find it hard to believe that the cost of health care hasn't at least partially, if not majorly, risen because people aren't paying out of their own pockets or accounts in this case.

Not trying to poke hole just to take sides here, but here is my question set.

Don't medical pros tell us we SHOULD go to the doctor if we suspect something is wrong? isn't early detection something the medicl community supports? Wouldn't this potentiall raise costs as catastrphic illnesses go undetected until they are huge ticket items?

Yeah sure, go to the doctor. I take back my earlier comment, I forgot I did use my HC about 5 years back. I hadn't been for a check up and wanted to make sure I wasnt dying so I went for my free yearly check up provided by insurance company. The bill came to $200. So lets look at hte HSA, that is actually more like $140 out of your paycheck after tax. That money will be in an account solely for medical purposes, I would hope that depleting your account by $200 pre-tax money wouldnt discourage someone from going if they thought it was serious. Lets be honest most people kinda know when something is doctor worthy or not.

And I still se no way how item 1 is causally connected. You still need insuarnce. Or is this just the reality of the program cost model -- admittedly, I don't work in HR / insurance, so I don't know. I'm just wrapping around theory.

yeah of course you still need insurance. Have you priced it before? High deductible means less premium. I have messed around on ehealthinsurance.com. Just ran it right now. You can get a $10000 deductible plan with 0% coinsurance for 31/month. Sure this would be something you wanted to build up to and wouldn't want to undertake until you had 10K in your account, but after ward instead of pumping $200 a month in to my current premiums I could put away $170 a month on top of a company match and build up my HSA pretty quickly no? On the other hand I can go out and get a $1000 deductible (which I may not have put away for at all either) with 20% co insurance (which I certainly not have put away for) for $150 a month. Or go 0 deductible with 30% coinsurance (not saved away) for 180 a month.

What seems like the best deal to you? To me the $10000 deductible (once I reached the point of 10K in my HSA) seems far and away the cheapest and best plan, no? While you are building to that point a more conservative option should certainly be encouraged, and if you blow your load and drop below 10K another plan shoudl be considered. And yes everyone's situation is different, I did it as a 28 year old male, so obviously things are different for others. Just demonstrating the thought process.

Don't think I don't hear you on some of this and make the mistake I am hell bent on dogma. It makes me sick that I and you help make Tom Kruse a billionare and I know lots of dumasses with no responsibility rasie costs due to behaviors when healthy and sick..

Thats the other thing. People are rewarded for how they take care of themselves. Stay in shape, eat right, and get some luck you have a few hundred thousand to sit on at retirement. Eat Big Mac's like tictacs, only exercise to get off the couch to get a coke and chances are you will be left with dick. Now I know you are still about personal responsibility. What better way to encourage it?

[Ziner]

What I find humorous, however, is your knee-jerk certainty that advanced higher education can't possibly play a significant role in K - 6 education. Borders on hubris to me. But then again, I'm a parent and I value this stuff.

Hubris perhaps, rational most likely

Just saying man, There are certainly skills teachers can learn to effectively teach young children, just dont think calc 3 for a math teacher of 4th graders is the best use of resources.

[Ziner]

I tell you one thing, wages aren't going up anywhere as fast as the cost of education. Talk about out of control. The demand for college educations for careers and jobs that don't need them are ridiculous. However, in this job market though you gotta play the game. You have elementary teachers out there with master's degrees. Student loan debt might be the next crack in the wall. Too many people with too much student loan debt with out enough jobs paying enough in wages to make all the payments. My friend is going to finish his podiatry residency with 250K in loans. Going to have to take the first $40,000 of his salary to just make the payments.

I don't understand why student loan debt isn't a bigger political issue right now. You want consumer-driven spending to boost the economy? Forgive student loan debt as a "stimulus". Tons of us out there in the 25-30 range with a shitload of debt that would be buying houses, cars, and spending money if that $1000 a month payment was suddenly gone. So simple - which is why politicians aren't behind it.

Absolutely, but I can't agree or else JB will accuse me of being a hypocrite for handouts. There is merit to the idea though. The problem would arise for the people who didnt finance their loans, cause it sure would suck to be them and see you footing cash for you education while the rest of schmucks financed it only to have it forgiven.

I would argue that if you could get past absolutely sticking it to the people who paid cash for theirs, it would be much more stimulative. I know I would take the money I am paying right now and save it for a house or be spending it. It would be much more focus spending than the current stimulus, that is for sure.

[FUDU]

Not a teacher, have no kids, but here goes anyway. I lean with Ziner in that a Masters for K-6? Nothing wrong to have it, something wrong for it to be required. K-6 is still core value curriculum, no? Meaning for the most part the data doesn't change, basic math is basic math, and while there is nothing wrong with pushing students let's face it kids k-6 can only absorb so much in concept (exceptions of course). So that all cannot be handled with a standard degree?

I mean aren't new methods of teaching different from the core data we teach, IOW new methods of teaching aren't gong to come hand in hand with a Masters, right?

Trust me JB I wan't joking about the CHD stuff, I say pfft to the medical community, we've been duped.

[jb]

Mix matching topics but I think we can get by, but Ziner is right on the student debt angle. You want me to go to school (not that there is anything wrong with that) and pay a shit load to do so. However in order to do so you want me to incur a lot of debt. Yet when it comes time to hire you don't want to pay a more reasonable wage for the potential that you claim is validated by that piece of paper called a degree. Then you sit there and scratch your head over economic scenarios trying to figure out why there are often so few people with no debt, no real education and not fitting for hire.

you = system

I'll play devils here FUDU.

I have seen student indebtedness as largely a function of young adults wanting to live beyond their means. In some communites, it is even a way for a college student to support their parents.

Want to graduate bachelors out of debt?

Try to find some way to possibly live without an iPhone/Droid. Et cetera.

Take a friggin' bus if you can and walk some.

Do this novel thing called "work" . I was stunned at how many kids don't work in summer full time and they apply for these whopping alt loans. Or don't use their work study. Dumb dumb dumb.

Lastly, pick a college you and your folks can afford if that is an issue. Higher ed is the only true market based form of education in the USA. Even state schools are really nothing more than vouchers. Live at home if you have to, and commute to the local U after 2 years at a juco if that's the only way. annual tuition is still about $ 8,500 / year for a low cost U in Ohio.

Don't go live on campus if you can't afford it, drink beer and smoke weed instead of work, pile up debt so you can have the latest PC when there are labs on campus, and defer some damn gartification. You play it smart and even those at just over pell threashold can make it with a job and some minimum direct loans that can be paid off at a reasonable rate. Or at least they could if some institutions would embrace their societal roles as low cost peroviders of acccess instead of having advancement feaver (coughcoughcsucoughcough) .

[FUDU]

I have no problem with ^.

[Ziner]

I'll play devils here FUDU.

I have seen student indebtedness as largely a function of young adults wanting to live beyond their means. In some communites, it is even a way for a college student to support their parents.

Want to graduate bachelors out of debt?

Try to find some way to possibly live without an iPhone/Droid. Et cetera.

Take a friggin' bus if you can and walk some.

Do this novel thing called "work" . I was stunned at how many kids don't work in summer full time and they apply for these whopping alt loans. Or don't use their work study. Dumb dumb dumb.

Lastly, pick a college you and your folks can afford if that is an issue. Higher ed is the only true market based form of education in the USA. Even state schools are really nothing more than vouchers. Live at home if you have to, and commute to the local U after 2 years at a juco if that's the only way. annual tuition is still about $ 8,500 / year for a low cost U in Ohio.

Don't go live on campus if you can't afford it, drink beer and smoke weed instead of work, pile up debt so you can have the latest PC when there are labs on campus, and defer some damn gartification. You play it smart and even those at just over pell threashold can make it with a job and some minimum direct loans that can be paid off at a reasonable rate. Or at least they could if some institutions would embrace their societal roles as low cost peroviders of acccess instead of having advancement feaver (coughcoughcsucoughcough) .

Yes and no. There are benefits to going to "better" higher education universities. There is hidden value in connections, perception, etc. It isnt all just about bottom line coming out. That said I wish people had made more aware of the choice to be made. The way it was presented to me (young dumb 17 year old, then again not much has changed now that I am 28) when I was looking at schools was get in to the best one you can. You will get a better job and the student loans will take care of themselves with your super high paying job from that "elite" school (remember I was making my decision in 1999. Life was good. College grads were being fought over. However, I certainly do agree with you on the sacrifice. Worked my ass off during the summer, pulled the work study angle and got my $10/hr handout for doing nothing, lived on natty light. But sure you are also right about the fact that I could have went to the University of Toledo for $500/semester after scholly and lived at home for free. Would that have been the better decision? Who knows. The thing is I didnt even consider it because at the time it wasnt something that had to be considered. However, I will tell anyone who wants to listen now. There is alot of grey when it comes to making that decision now, takes a leap of faith and some good advice. I wish I had more of it, my dad was just concerned that I went to school and was estatic that I was the first in our family to graduate, he was less concerned about the student loans. And frankly, mine arent even that bad. Worked hard during school and in the summer and left CWRU with only 25K, that aint bad. Then of course I had to throw on some MBA loans and my wife's... so now it isnt so neat and pretty.

[FUDU]

^ as well,

Lot of empty talk when it comes to advice on what to do at 17,18. Maybe not empty advice but not thorough in many cases. That is why I said there is a fine line. My advice to young kids is DO NOT discount college, but do not just go b/c people say you need to go. Set it up to see if it is for you at first, problem with that is depending on what you think you want to do you don't get a taste of the work load in the onset of college. I say go to a skill set school first at age 17 or 18. Get a skill that can put money in your pocket while you then go to college and "try it out", close to home preferably. 1 yr maybe 2 tops of getting your feet wet will not set you back forever.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

This is the lamest political discussion ever.

Except for OJ saying this.

I'm a flaming right winger

Who knew he was a log cabin Republican?

Good for you, OJ.

Sage college advice from this crowd. Nice.

[peeker643]

Another centrist agrees with OP PoV

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... /?iref=NS1

[Ziner]

It's funny, you can pretty much read that entire thing and substitute MSNBC for FoxNews and it makes sense that way as well. Strange how that works

(CNN) - President Bush is pulling no punches when it comes to MSNBC, declaring the cable news outlet to be "destructive to [America's] long-term growth."

In a more than 8,000-word interview with Rolling Stone Magazine, Bush compared the cable news channel to papers owned by William Randolph Hearst at the turn of the 20th century that unabashedly pushed the media titan's own political views.

"You had folks like Hearst who used their newspapers very intentionally to promote their viewpoints. I think MSNBC is part of that tradition – it is part of the tradition that has a very clear, undeniable point of view," Bush told the magazine.

Officials in the Bush White House have long made MSNBC a punching bag, launching a full blown offensive last year when aides declared the network to be "opinion journalism masquerading as news." Then-White House Communications Director Phil McCracken said the cable outlet "operates almost as either the research arm or the communications arm of the Democrat Party," and top aide Haywood Jablowme called MSNBC "clearly biased."

But the new comments from Bush constitute the president's most direct attack yet on the network owned by business mogul Mr. NBC.

MSNBC pushes "a point of view that I disagree with. It's a point of view that I think is ultimately destructive for the long-term growth of a country that has a vibrant middle class and is competitive in the world," Bush said.

"But as an economic enterprise, it's been wildly successful. And I suspect that if you ask Mr. NBC what his number one concern is, it's that MSNBC is very successful."

MSNBC has yet to respond to the president. But during the administration offensive against the network last year, network spokesman Keith Maddow slammed the White House for continuing "to declare war on a news organization instead of focusing on the critical issues that Americans are concerned about."

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Another centrist agrees with OP PoV

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... /?iref=NS1

Personally, i'd like to shoot Glenn Beck and Hannity in the spine and leave 'em laying face down in the muck.

But "threat to America"? Sure if you're afraid of all those old farts in Florida who love 'em. What are they going to do? Make me watch Matlock 12 hours a day, eat my dinner at 4pm, or go to bed a at 9pm?

[peeker643]

Another centrist agrees with OP PoV

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... /?iref=NS1

Personally, i'd like to shoot Glenn Beck and Hannity in the spine and leave 'em laying face down in the muck.

But "threat to America"? Sure if you're afraid of all those old farts in Florida who love 'em. What are they going to do? Make me watch Matlock 12 hours a day, eat my dinner at 4pm, or go to bed a at 9pm?

No idea really.

I figure the people in here are generally bright enough to take those talking heads and the networks they work for for what they are. On either side.


And if you're worried about the effect they're having on gen pop, well, get out there and educate gen pop.

[FUDU]

I see Bert & Ernie came out to play, better late than never. You two still sleep in separate beds?

[peeker643]

I see Bert & Ernie came out to play, better late than never. You two still sleep in separate beds?

Hey, I gave you a link documenting that centrist president Obama agrees with centrist thread starter JB.

How much more relevant can I get?

And to answer your question; no..or yes..whichever way means we sleep in separate beds.

[Orenthal]

This is the lamest political discussion ever.

Except for OJ saying this.

I'm a flaming right winger

Who knew he was a log cabin Republican?

Good for you, OJ.

Sage college advice from this crowd. Nice.

I knew you would catch that CDT, and associate it with the Log Cabin Republicans, I'd be lying if I said I hesitated using "flaming".

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Yeah, "Flamming" was a bad choice.

BTW are Log Cabin Republicans real? Or are they like Bigfoot and aliens, talked about but never seen.

[Orenthal]

As for JB's screed way up there I couldn't take his advice and not read. It was typical JB.

JB
"Then you don't read what I write OJ. You really don't. It is just hat 80% of the time the right panders to the dumbest common denominator and it makes it easy for a rationalist like myself to puke bile. And yes, you are a right winger. Onto the next one."

I read pretty good. Nice suttle jab. I was the third guy to this line of thinking btw.

Pander? Like showing lil kiddies pictures of polar bears... Every left wing idea is built upon emotion, guilt, and stupidity. Now you'll probably maybe eventually perhaps say the left does it too in a late attempt to maintain centrism, but anyone, well maybe that 20% with a brain knows you are always in attack Republican first mode. Anything else is an outlier.

After that first paragraph we get:
1.Fox is greedy.
2.Fox ruined the gritty REAL way musical acts get started.
3.Obligitory "centrist" nutty people to left and right. (Only left of you is Dennis K.)
4.Can't lower taxes, cuz we are in debt.
5.Long winded nod for Obama's health care restructure.
6.Stimulus worked, they must not have read JB's post.
7.Don't know how much better it would have been if we did nothing. See 1920-21.
8.Took this long to blame Bush?
9.Fan of infrastructure waste? Check out East 9th street.
10.China subsidizes Green Energy because they have a ready market in the US. Let's out subsidize the socialists.
11.Obama fixing rationally, Clinton did good, furthest left of the recent Republicans did good. (Hillary is also left of JB.)
12.Alexander Hamilton would be wayyyyy to the right of you.

[jb]

I'll play devils here FUDU.

I have seen student indebtedness as largely a function of young adults wanting to live beyond their means. In some communites, it is even a way for a college student to support their parents.

Want to graduate bachelors out of debt?

Try to find some way to possibly live without an iPhone/Droid. Et cetera.

Take a friggin' bus if you can and walk some.

Do this novel thing called "work" . I was stunned at how many kids don't work in summer full time and they apply for these whopping alt loans. Or don't use their work study. Dumb dumb dumb.

Lastly, pick a college you and your folks can afford if that is an issue. Higher ed is the only true market based form of education in the USA. Even state schools are really nothing more than vouchers. Live at home if you have to, and commute to the local U after 2 years at a juco if that's the only way. annual tuition is still about $ 8,500 / year for a low cost U in Ohio.

Don't go live on campus if you can't afford it, drink beer and smoke weed instead of work, pile up debt so you can have the latest PC when there are labs on campus, and defer some damn gartification. You play it smart and even those at just over pell threashold can make it with a job and some minimum direct loans that can be paid off at a reasonable rate. Or at least they could if some institutions would embrace their societal roles as low cost peroviders of acccess instead of having advancement feaver (coughcoughcsucoughcough) .

Yes and no. There are benefits to going to "better" higher education universities. There is hidden value in connections, perception, etc. It isnt all just about bottom line coming out. That said I wish people had made more aware of the choice to be made. The way it was presented to me (young dumb 17 year old, then again not much has changed now that I am 28) when I was looking at schools was get in to the best one you can. You will get a better job and the student loans will take care of themselves with your super high paying job from that "elite" school (remember I was making my decision in 1999. Life was good. College grads were being fought over. However, I certainly do agree with you on the sacrifice. Worked my ass off during the summer, pulled the work study angle and got my $10/hr handout for doing nothing, lived on natty light. But sure you are also right about the fact that I could have went to the University of Toledo for $500/semester after scholly and lived at home for free. Would that have been the better decision? Who knows. The thing is I didnt even consider it because at the time it wasnt something that had to be considered. However, I will tell anyone who wants to listen now. There is alot of grey when it comes to making that decision now, takes a leap of faith and some good advice. I wish I had more of it, my dad was just concerned that I went to school and was estatic that I was the first in our family to graduate, he was less concerned about the student loans. And frankly, mine arent even that bad. Worked hard during school and in the summer and left CWRU with only 25K, that aint bad. Then of course I had to throw on some MBA loans and my wife's... so now it isnt so neat and pretty.

two things Z.

I know we have busted balls from time to time and I can step over the line when I get all worked up and be a dick, and you and Adam have called me on that correctly, so I want you to know it wasn't the case this time. That wasn't aimed at you whatsoever. Just chopping it up in hypotheticals.

Second, whet you were told at 17 was probably right. Then. You're just fucked coming up in the otts, man. Bad run since 2000. can't stay like this forever. You have a ways to go if you're still looking upward to the big 30.

Thanks for a good discussion today.