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What is this guy doing?

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What is this guy doing?

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:38 pm

Obama.

Between the Copenhagen meetings on climate change and this health care bill this guy has us on the brink of disaster. Word is he is heavily leaning toward signing pretty much whatever gets proposed in Copenhagen, which means the US taxpayer is getting fucked hard. Plus he is already on record as saying he will pass health care reform, couple that with two different senators quoted as saying "We are passing this health care bill". This, meaning this one. Connect the dots.

I know it is a pipe dream to think this can be a non partisan and objective discussion about what this guy is doing right now, but I' ll ask anyway, if not just for the sake of the Lead man giving odds on how many posts in this will turn ugly and how long it will take for this to turn into Bush bashing and or Clinton blow job talk.

Honestly this health care bill right now is not a good solution, what is on the table right now is pure garbage and the people do not want IT. Let alone Obama has said he will not pass a bill that adds to the deficit, interesting coming from the leader of an admin that is on an outrageous spending spree. Yet the representatives, under his watch, are hell bent on passing anything they can just for the sake of saying "see look what we did". It is absurd. Not to mention if he does sign a treaty on climate change, a treaty in which we will have little to no control over, we will still be footing the bill. It makes no sense, but guess what, it is all going to happen.

I didn't vote for this guy, but he won and as the president of my country I have rooted him on, hoping he could do the two big things he claimed he would do....bring change and transparency. He is 0-2 and he is doubling down his bet with our future as collateral.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby jack_tors » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:34 pm

FUDU wrote:Obama.

Between the Copenhagen meetings on climate change and this health care bill this guy has us on the brink of disaster. Word is he is heavily leaning toward signing pretty much whatever gets proposed in Copenhagen, which means the US taxpayer is getting fucked hard. Plus he is already on record as saying he will pass health care reform, couple that with two different senators quoted as saying "We are passing this health care bill". This, meaning this one. Connect the dots.

I know it is a pipe dream to think this can be a non partisan and objective discussion about what this guy is doing right now, but I' ll ask anyway, if not just for the sake of the Lead man giving odds on how many posts in this will turn ugly and how long it will take for this to turn into Bush bashing and or Clinton blow job talk.

Honestly this health care bill right now is not a good solution, what is on the table right now is pure garbage and the people do not want IT. Let alone Obama has said he will not pass a bill that adds to the deficit, interesting coming from the leader of an admin that is on an outrageous spending spree. Yet the representatives, under his watch, are hell bent on passing anything they can just for the sake of saying "see look what we did". It is absurd. Not to mention if he does sign a treaty on climate change, a treaty in which we will have little to no control over, we will still be footing the bill. It makes no sense, but guess what, it is all going to happen.

I didn't vote for this guy, but he won and as the president of my country I have rooted him on, hoping he could do the two big things he claimed he would do....bring change and transparency. He is 0-2 and he is doubling down his bet with our future as collateral.


I too second your hope for a good non partisan, objective talk and will try my best to keep it going.

I voted for the guy, not because I believed the hype but because McCain is.. McCain. So here we are a year later and what has changed? Still have a rampant deficit, two foreign wars with no end in sight, and are now focusing on health care. Really, its no wonder his approval numbers are so low right now.

Look, I know the guy took on a bunch of crap and desperately wants to change things but perhaps his focus is too wide. We need to do the following, preferably in this order:

1.) Attack the deficit- We all have a deficit, its part of life. However, this massive, basically unchecked deficit is going to cut the legs out from other so much of the programs and changes he wants to enact.

2.) Cut wasteful spending - Anyone, regardless of party could find something that fits this scenario. Run the govt like a freaking business, not some group of organizations with a blank check.

3.)Build a successful strategy for both wars- Smarter military men than I can speak to how we do this but we have to find a way out of here.

If he focused on these things, I would be much happier. I agree we need to overhaul the health care system. However, I think the priorities I listed are higher and we need to spend the time to reform health care the right way. As Fudu pointed out, no one wants this and its effects will be marginal at best.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:55 pm

I too second your hope for a good non partisan, objective talk and will try my best to keep it going.

I voted for the guy, not because I believed the hype but because McCain is.. McCain. So here we are a year later and what has changed? Still have a rampant deficit, two foreign wars with no end in sight, and are now focusing on health care. Really, its no wonder his approval numbers are so low right now.

Look, I know the guy took on a bunch of crap and desperately wants to change things but perhaps his focus is too wide. We need to do the following, preferably in this order:

1.) Attack the deficit- We all have a deficit, its part of life. However, this massive, basically unchecked deficit is going to cut the legs out from other so much of the programs and changes he wants to enact.

2.) Cut wasteful spending - Anyone, regardless of party could find something that fits this scenario. Run the govt like a freaking business, not some group of organizations with a blank check.

3.)Build a successful strategy for both wars- Smarter military men than I can speak to how we do this but we have to find a way out of here.

If he focused on these things, I would be much happier. I agree we need to overhaul the health care system. However, I think the priorities I listed are higher and we need to spend the time to reform health care the right way. As Fudu pointed out, no one wants this and its effects will be marginal at best.
We all have our different lists of issues we feel should be dealt with, while I might not completely agree with yours I can accept them.

If there is one thing I feel many of us can agree on it is the difference between being efficient and being effective. They are not one in the same, many people lose sight of this, IMO Congress and the president have. The focus is on getting something done with HC with much lesser regard to if that something is actually logical and can be effective. What our reps are doing with this HC reform is no different than painting a car without getting rid of the rust or w/o prepping it. Why are they going about this in this way, b/c they do not live on the same plane we do. They are completely out of touch with the people they represent.

The other point that scares me is the trend of wealth redistribution as a means of resolving all our problems. There is plenty of wealth redistribution in the HC proposals and in the climate change treaty. It is almost as if this admin is seeking out ways to redistribute the wealth of the US tax payer. I am not suggesting this has never been done by previous admins but this admin right now knows no other approach to solving a problem.

I heard one radio personality describe Obama as the first world president after he won the election, so far he is living up to that label and is forsaking the people of the country whom he is president of.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:12 pm

We're never getting out of debt. How many hundreds of billions of dollars do we owe the Chinese?
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:29 pm

1) Restore the top marginal rate to what it was under Clinton, and add in some addition tiers at 500k, 1m, 5m, 10m. It's not fair that the rich pay a smaller percentage of their income in tax than the rest of us, and that's before figuring in the additional benefit they receive from capital gains. Likewise, ensure the solvency of SSI (and no, I don't buy that there is a crisis, as it is funded fine for another 30+ years) by raising the maximum taxable earnings from the current $106,800.
2) Don't pass HCR with what it is shaping up to be, which is just a huge giveaway to the insurance industry.
3) GTFO of both Iraq and Afghanistan. Bring our men and women home. They have done more than anyone could ask. As a minor aside, the amount of money we are spending every year dwarfs the numbers bandied about for things like HCR.
4) Focus on jobs and growing the economy instead of closing the deficit. Reducing the deficit cannot be done unless the economy grows and tax revenues increase. The primary reason for the large current deficit is reduced revenue, not increased spending. Things like TARP and the stimulus were one time things; take a look at the long term budget projections and it is not pretty even after these outlays are no longer there.
5) Extend unemployment benefits.
6) Enact some goddamn regulations on Wall Street.
7) Go back in time and punch Alan Greenspan in the face for giving cover to those who thought we needed to squander the surplus and go back to deficits back in 2000.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby swerb » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:34 pm

I saw the clip last night of where Obama was asked to grade himself so far as President. Gave himself a B+ ... said he'd be an A for sure if he can get health care through.

Just thought it was inappropriate for him to answer that question, then sound so smug in doing so.

Some things I like about Obama. He's a good family man, smart guy, and an effective communicator. More people are working than 9 months ago. Still ugly out there, but better.

He did the right thing by sending more troops to Afghanistan, but waited too long, didn't give the general what he asked for, and by setting a timetable ... I believe that emboldens the enemies who will just lie in wait for us to leave. These assholes we're dealing with are calculating patient mother fuckers. I just think the people that hate us and want to hurt us ... they laugh at this guy. They hate us no less because Obama is President and not Bush. Our perception amongst more neutral countries is clearly improved under Obama.

I hate the fact how he still blames Bush for everything. Strong leaders don't make excuses and look backwards, they demand results and look forward.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:48 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:We're never getting out of debt. How many hundreds of billions of dollars do we owe the Chinese?


I don't agree with never, but do acknowledge it would take decades of work to get the number near 0. The biggest problem is that there is no change in the trend of running deficits. Lots of talk on being fiscally responsible, but no action. IOW if they wanted to start to bring down the deficit they would do it this year. Not the political speak of cutting it in half in 4 years, or whatever crap Bush and Obama have been peddlin'.

Being fiscally responsible means making tough real cuts. A 20% across the board reduction in all department spending. Isolating and cutting non essential programs. Let a liberal and conservative think tank go through the budget and allow them to highlight programs they feel wasteful. Then allow your administration to review that list, which should be made public, and determine which should get the axe. A government hiring freeze would allow the bloated government to reduce costs as many agencies are top heavy with 20 year workers, at least that was the demo at the agency I worked.

Instead we are doing the exact opposite, and have been doing that for the past two admins. TARP (which Obama had a hand in) I could almost understand as the banking sector snowballs to almost every part of the economy. However the cause of that collapse had a large (not total) part to do with government intervention. Now Obama is calling bankers into the principals office telling them to repeat that same behavior. Also they spent another 700 billion to stimulate, and now wanna use the 700 trillion plus TARP as a slush fund. TARP was sold to the public as a loan, and was sold as such because people saw bailing out companies as unfair when they were sinking under their mortgage debt.

The :gah: moment is when you add Health Care and Cap and Trade to the equation. Yes, we are the richest country in the world, but why in the fuck should we subsidize, through handouts, other nations so they can develop? Why should our economic growth be prevented, and thus the thousands of economic indicators will continue to be decimated, costing us more money and jobs. We have had two administrations now that have played pretty good lip service to fiscal responsibility, but really have been inept, or more properly, derelict in its execution.

Would be freaking awesome if we could get bipartisan on this one as I think it is the only way we can get something done. I'm more then willing to cut out my typically conservative programs in an effort to get moving in the right direction.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby jack_tors » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:13 pm

Swerb wrote:I saw the clip last night of where Obama was asked to grade himself so far as President. Gave himself a B+ ... said he'd be an A for sure if he can get health care through.

Just thought it was inappropriate for him to answer that question, then sound so smug in doing so.


Totally agree, the correct response was: Thats not for me to answer, next question.

Swerb wrote:
He did the right thing by sending more troops to Afghanistan, but waited too long, didn't give the general what he asked for, and by setting a timetable ... I believe that emboldens the enemies who will just lie in wait for us to leave. These assholes we're dealing with are calculating patient mother fuckers. I just think the people that hate us and want to hurt us ... they laugh at this guy. They hate us no less because Obama is President and not Bush. Our perception amongst more neutral countries is clearly improved under Obama.


Yeah, I agree here too. He should definitely have some kind of time table and exit strategy, its absurdly stupid not to. However, a simple "We have a plan in place, etc.." should suffice. I feel we broadcast too much about where/when our troops will be various actions. Its a fine line and we should be educated on what going on but not if it puts any of our troops or success in jeopardy.

Swerb wrote:I hate the fact how he still blames Bush for everything. Strong leaders don't make excuses and look backwards, they demand results and look forward.


This is an awesome quote..
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:26 pm

A 20% across the board reduction in all department spending


You include the defense department in that?
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:32 pm

aoxo1 wrote:1) Restore the top marginal rate to what it was under Clinton, and add in some addition tiers at 500k, 1m, 5m, 10m. It's not fair that the rich pay a smaller percentage of their income in tax than the rest of us, and that's before figuring in the additional benefit they receive from capital gains. Likewise, ensure the solvency of SSI (and no, I don't buy that there is a crisis, as it is funded fine for another 30+ years) by raising the maximum taxable earnings from the current $106,800.
2) Don't pass HCR with what it is shaping up to be, which is just a huge giveaway to the insurance industry.
3) GTFO of both Iraq and Afghanistan. Bring our men and women home. They have done more than anyone could ask. As a minor aside, the amount of money we are spending every year dwarfs the numbers bandied about for things like HCR.
4) Focus on jobs and growing the economy instead of closing the deficit. Reducing the deficit cannot be done unless the economy grows and tax revenues increase. The primary reason for the large current deficit is reduced revenue, not increased spending. Things like TARP and the stimulus were one time things; take a look at the long term budget projections and it is not pretty even after these outlays are no longer there.
5) Extend unemployment benefits.
6) Enact some goddamn regulations on Wall Street.
7) Go back in time and punch Alan Greenspan in the face for giving cover to those who thought we needed to squander the surplus and go back to deficits back in 2000.


On #1 I fundementally disagree with ever raising taxes or increasing the roadblocks on the individual or businesses. On raising the SSI cap, I again disagree. The entire program is flawed in 30+ years I will be close to retirement, or will the age by that time be 85 to retire. The demographics just do not work anymore. The solution is to just keep raising the tax, because raising the threshold is just another form of taxing/taking someone's earnings and redistributing. I am sure you won't be a fan of privatizing, but unless we just keep taking money from people at higher and higher rates, and then returning them money years and years later at a shitty rate of return.

#2 I agree with up to the point where you assign it as a giveaway to the insurance industry. I'd bet its as much a giveaway to everyone, as it is a way for government to control more and more of the private sector. For better or worse...

#3 The cost of the wars is close to 100 billion a year on average for the past 10 years. Those are historical costs, and ones that should be on a downward trend. Health care is estimated to be around the same figure per year, 100 billion. My biggest problem with that is the word estimate/projection. Government programs NEVER run at estimate. Also while the wars had a 10 year life at 100 million that is not likely to continue, while healthcare will cost more and more every year, and will never come in close to that estimate. That does not include increased regulations and taxation which stifle the private sector. Regulation and taxation are not benefits to private industry, and any increased costs an inefficiencies will be passed onto the concumer. Not to be a total hack on the issue, I have no problem exploring ways to significantly reduce our costs in those wars. That includes a total pullout of troops and resources if we are not fighting to WIN.

#4 I agree with, but think reducing the deficit helps with stimulating the economy. Reducing our interest costs would allow funds to be release for job growing purposes.

#5 Good God no. That has been extended far longer then it should have, and IMO is a political cop out. Selling out to #4 would create the jobs people need. Giving people free money, and the amount given is an insult and an immpossible amount to cover losing a job. This is an incentive to not work.

#6 I'd have to see them before I agree, but the uptick rule, naked shorting, and many games the Wall Street firms are able to play on the retail stock investor are criminal. Things that are illegal are allowed to happen because the SEC is toothless either thru lack of manpower or plain old complicity. I believe in good old personal responsibility, but when someone participates in the market they should not have to worry about illegal acts causing them to lose their money.

#7 Aoxo there are just so mny people we could go back and punch in the face. I agree with this one 100%!

While this post has many partisan positions and retorts to yours aoxo1, I am not claiming that these solutions would work, just that I believe they would work. I would be more then happy to give up some of my solutions, take on some of yours, if it meant we got even 50% of the fiscal responsibility we need out of our government.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:36 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
A 20% across the board reduction in all department spending


You include the defense department in that?


Come on CDT did you read my whole post? Of course the fuck it does... I worked in the DoD. The waste there is no different then at any liberal feel good department. Across the board. I think allowing the liberal and conservative think tanks to just hammer the shit out of the budget would expose both sides pork, then the admin would finalize. Hopefully making this fully transparent, and letting the admin make final decisions, would lead to real, evenhanded, and meaningful cuts.

I am such a bull on cutting government spending that I have almost no sacred cows...
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:38 pm

Orenthal wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
A 20% across the board reduction in all department spending


You include the defense department in that?


Come on CDT did you read my whole post? Of course the fuck it does... I worked in the DoD. The waste there is no different then at any liberal feel good department. Across the board. I think allowing the liberal and conservative think tanks to just hammer the shit out of the budget would expose both sides pork, then the admin would finalize. Hopefully making this fully transparent, and letting the admin make final decisions, would lead to real, evenhanded, and meaningful cuts.

I am such a bull on cutting government spending that I have almost no sacred cows...


20%..... I like it. I cheered when they cut the F-22 and the Laser Plane.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:39 pm

Swerb wrote:I hate the fact how he still blames Bush for everything. Strong leaders don't make excuses and look backwards, they demand results and look forward.


I threw out basically the same exact point couple weeks ago in a thread. Watch out, cuz I took a little heat for what seems to be an obvious statement.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:51 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
Orenthal wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
A 20% across the board reduction in all department spending


You include the defense department in that?


Come on CDT did you read my whole post? Of course the fuck it does... I worked in the DoD. The waste there is no different then at any liberal feel good department. Across the board. I think allowing the liberal and conservative think tanks to just hammer the shit out of the budget would expose both sides pork, then the admin would finalize. Hopefully making this fully transparent, and letting the admin make final decisions, would lead to real, evenhanded, and meaningful cuts.

I am such a bull on cutting government spending that I have almost no sacred cows...


20%..... I like it. I cheered when they cut the F-22 and the Laser Plane.


CDT no bullshit I could buy a million dollar computer system easier then I could get another pencil from the supply closet. Government is horrible at cost control. No profit motive... Hell half the time they do not even have to show positive results. Missle defense shield? It is one thing to understand the benefit of such a defensive measure, quite another to spend the kind of dollars they have and have it still be a miserable failure. Maybe they should try perfecting on a smaller scale and then expanding it, but then that would mean someone/something was accountable...

During my probation period at the IG I was asking my team leader a question while he was at his desk. When I realized his back was to me I asked again slightly louder. He shook a little startled... He was sleeping at his desk. At that point I decided I was done with this shit, as I am a total type A. In fact I would go to the 12th floor of the federal building and just walk the stairs to the 26th two to three times a day I was so freaking bored. I was told not to worry as this was a no stress job. Hence 20% cuts and a total hiring freeze.

That is not to say that all the 70 people in our office were like that, but at an average salary of probably close to 60,000 dollars, and with insane vacation and other benefits, we can afford to make these people work at Wal Mart like they should. <-some hyperbole on the place of their employment...

I could go on forever on this subject. My main point on government will always be get the fuck outta the way, and only get involved when laws are broken that allow one to take advantage of another.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:44 am

aoxo, extend unemployment benefits? How about cut them back big time. Extending them continues the ever growing trend of wealth redistribution that this admin thrives on, no more enabling a do nothing attitude to get by.

To Rich's point on Obama grading himself, not only was it arrogant to answer the question but a B+? The guy hasn't addressed the two major points in which he ran on, change and transparency, in that regards sounds much more like a C or a D to me. Let alone his point included in that response "we were left with the biggest mess in history" really Obama blaming what what down before you took over in terms of grading your actions to date?

In regards to the two big issues I mentioned at the start, this guy is selling us out, big time.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby jfiling » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:26 am

FUDU wrote:aoxo, extend unemployment benefits? How about cut them back big time. Extending them continues the ever growing trend of wealth redistribution that this admin thrives on, no more enabling a do nothing attitude to get by.

To Rich's point on Obama grading himself, not only was it arrogant to answer the question but a B+? The guy hasn't addressed the two major points in which he ran on, change and transparency, in that regards sounds much more like a C or a D to me. Let alone his point included in that response "we were left with the biggest mess in history" really Obama blaming what what down before you took over in terms of grading your actions to date?

In regards to the two big issues I mentioned at the start, this guy is selling us out, big time.

I definitely agree that on the two things we should have been guaranteed to get from Obama based on how he campaigned, change in how government does business and transparency in its actions, we've gotten nothing. If I'm not mistaken, the first big thing Obama did as president was bust his ass to pay back his Chicago crinies by getting that city the Olympic Games. Now, it's all ass-kissing to the left with "health care reform" and "climate change". Both are going to blow up in his face, and maybe then he'll decide to focus on the economy, which can only be fixed by simplifying taxes and lessening the burden of regulations, despite what a lot of people think. The economy isn't in the shape its in because there wasn't enough governmental meddling, but a lot of people think that if the government sticks its nose in even farther then everything will be coming up roses.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:35 pm

Today's antics were classic, comedic gold.

Vermont socialist Sanders trying to get his 700 page amendment, 700 page amendment I said, by without it being read by saying "I would ask that the amendment be considered as read,"; was halted by Colburn's (Oklahoma) objection, "I object,". So Sanders and his team had to read it (which of course would take hours).....but Colburn left the room anyway. Normally I would be pissed at such childish antics but with an amendment as bad as Sanders (and a HC bill as bad at this one is in general) I applaud Colburn's actions. Fuck these assholes. They aren't trying to solve anything, they are just trying to put their stamp on something and say look what we did. Evidenced further by more reports of some democratic "leaders" saying we will pass this soon, and worry about fixing it later in the years to come.

:wha?:

Not only does this HC reform need blown up but I think our entire Congress and it's procedures needs to be scrapped. They spend more time muddying up issues than they do providing valid solutions, hell they usually cannot be counted on to be in their seats for voting.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:30 pm

bump, if for no other reason than to say I told you say.

Yet another sad day for this country.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Ziner » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:23 pm

Perhaps I can go line by line on the HC bill tomorrow, dont have the time to put towards it like I would like to today, but here is the problem as I see it. A lot of the ideas in the health care bill are good things, its the consequences I worry about.

Not allowing insurance companies to refuse coverage over pre-existing conditions on children is a no brainer. It is coming for adults, that gets a little more tricky which is why the mandate is in the bill. The mandate is probably the best way to deal with this situation, but I dislike the government telling anyone they must buy it. (and it isnt the same as car insurance, you don't have to drive)

Getting rid of Annual and lifetime caps are good, but they are going to cost money and raise people's premiums as some people choose those options to keep their costs down.

I like the idea of small businesses being able to pool resources, but I don't like the fact that Big businesses are taxed to subsidize it.

It goes on and on, many ideas are sensible and good natured but with that comes the costs, taxes, and the unintended consequences. I dont see where this bill addresses costs in any drastic fashion and I dont see how this bill doesnt raise the premiums of everyone paying one and raise the cost of health care. Insurance companies, big pharma, and medical devices are going to re-coop their profits taxes they need to pay, or they are going to reduce costs in the form of job cuts or moving more manufacturing overseas to keep costs down. Those companies products are pretty inelastic so the consumer is likely to ultimately pay the tax. Perhaps if the GOP wasn't so busy being dickwads they could have had more of their ideas thrown in to the bill like buying insurance across state lines and some form of tort reform, which could have at least attempted to address rising costs.

The impact of this bill will not be known for quite a while, is a very fluid issue, things are always changing and every time a policy like this is enacted it is impossible to know the effects it has on everything else. Overall I think it will be a negative for the whole, a positive for a few, but at least the public option wasnt included.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby jfiling » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:30 pm

Ziner wrote:Perhaps I can go line by line on the HC bill tomorrow, dont have the time to put towards it like I would like to today, but here is the problem as I see it. A lot of the ideas in the health care bill are good things, its the consequences I worry about.

I did read the rest, but this is all that matters.

Or, as some wise person once said, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Even Diane fucking Feinstein admitted there were unintended consequences, but she wasn't concerned about them. All these assholes care about is creating a new entitlement, but they fucked up here. The benefits don't kick in for 4 years, which is plenty of time for people to get educated on why this is such a shitty idea.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:33 pm

In general I agree Ziner, going by what is being reported (b/c let's face it nobody knows what is in the bill, especially those who had the opportunity to vote on it, both sides included). Mainly my beef is the fact most Americans did not want this specific bill (based on the basics shown to us) and yet we had it stuffed down our throats. Add to that the controversy of some of this being unconstitutional.

Some other specific points I've read are that good pieces of our current system will be pretty much done away with or destroyed, HSA's and FSA's.

If there is truth to the rumors that states are suing over this, and those lawsuits carry weight, I hope those states can make some real traction.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Ziner » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:57 pm

FUDU wrote:If there is truth to the rumors that states are suing over this, and those lawsuits carry weight, I hope those states can make some real traction.



I am no legal expert but the states are mainly suing over the mandate right? So if they win the lawsuit isnt best case is that the mandate is unconstitutional because certainly the whole bill isnt. The problem with that is if you are going to cover pre-existing conditions a mandate makes the most sense. I am not saying I like it, but I can understand why it makes the most sense. Otherwise no one will start paying for insurance until they need it.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:11 pm

Portions of the National Recovery Administration may have made sense, but the Supreme Court rejected the whole thing when one aspect was found unconstitutional.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_R ... nistration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schechter_ ... ted_States

No being able to buy insurance across state lines seems to nullify the "all encompassing" commerce clause arguement.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby hebner20 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:13 pm

See the lawsuit that was filed at the link below:

http://pacelinebiz.files.wordpress.com/ ... e-bill.pdf
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:24 pm

Don't insurance companies have to obtain a license from every state they wish to operate in? I would think that right there would play a big part in this, seeing as states could simply restrict licensing if they did not like the practices of the insurance company.

I've already heard stories of expected rate increases in the 3 figure range, meaning 100% or more.

Waiting for a contact in the industry to give me their opinion on some of the "unexpected" consequences on this whole thing. They sounded quite displeased about this the past month, suggesting the industry will be kaput in a decade if not sooner.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:36 pm

Just on simple economic principle the "good things" in this bill are also the ones that many want to accept as free. Pre-existing conditions and 26 year old childern as quick examples.

Also just starting to creep into my mind is how did this automatically cover the 32 million people who did not have insurance? At first that was being done with the public option opt in, but did the reasons those 32 million do not currently have insurance vanish? I guess yiu can mandate they purchase insurance, but if yer broke, how does the mandate make you afford insurance?
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Ziner » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:42 pm

Orenthal wrote:Just on simple economic principle the "good things" in this bill are also the ones that many want to accept as free. Pre-existing conditions and 26 year old childern as quick examples.

Also just starting to creep into my mind is how did this automatically cover the 32 million people who did not have insurance? At first that was being done with the public option opt in, but did the reasons those 32 million do not currently have insurance vanish? I guess yiu can mandate they purchase insurance, but if yer broke, how does the mandate make you afford insurance?



I believe families that make under 80K get subsidizies. My question is how this is not dependent on areas of the country. 80K in Iowa is alot different than 80K in NYC.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby waborat » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:52 pm

All I know is if in 4 years:

-I'm employing over 50 people

-And some don't want health insurance

-And I've got to help pay for them to get it

-Then I'll make cuts until I'm at 49

:thumbdown:
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:53 pm

Not to mention the inefficiency that can be expected from the new system. We're going to have to add numerous jobs to the mix (on the surface a good thing right?) yet how does that increase efficiency AND lower overall cost of the system? IIRC the IRS is going to track the individual mandate part, meaning something upwards of a couple hundred more IRS people on the books?

Politics are truly the big business of this country, sad.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby waborat » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:01 pm

FUDU wrote:Not to mention the inefficiency that can be expected from the new system. We're going to have to add numerous jobs to the mix (on the surface a good thing right?) yet how does that increase efficiency AND lower overall cost of the system? IIRC the IRS is going to track the individual mandate part, meaning something upwards of a couple hundred more IRS people on the books?

Politics are truly the big business of this country, sad.


Are there even enough primary docs to serve everyone?

Hard to believe that there are?
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby hebner20 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:31 pm

FUDU wrote:Not to mention the inefficiency that can be expected from the new system. We're going to have to add numerous jobs to the mix (on the surface a good thing right?) yet how does that increase efficiency AND lower overall cost of the system? IIRC the IRS is going to track the individual mandate part, meaning something upwards of a couple hundred more IRS people on the books?
Politics are truly the big business of this country, sad.


The number is more like 15,000+

see link below:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... 58137.html
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:52 pm

The bill isn't great. They had sixty votes 8 months ago, they should've just shoved the public option right down the Republicans' throats and been done with it.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:10 pm

On the bright side, if there is a bright side to this ass-wiping of the Constitution, RCP's latest polls have Congress at a 77% disapproval rating. Kasich and Portman both ahead early in the polls for Ohio Governor and Ohio Senate.

Obama's approval numbers have dropped 16% since the end of January on RCP's polls. He actually got a 51% disapproval rating from the latest Communist News Network poll.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/image ... /rel5b.pdf
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:24 pm

Skating Tripods wrote:On the bright side, if there is a bright side to this ass-wiping of the Constitution, RCP's latest polls have Congress at a 77% disapproval rating. Kasich and Portman both ahead early in the polls for Ohio Governor and Ohio Senate.

Obama's approval numbers have dropped 16% since the end of January on RCP's polls. He actually got a 51% disapproval rating from the latest Communist News Network poll.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/image ... /rel5b.pdf


The President's approval rating means nothing. See the 2004 Election. He'll still win re-election in 2012.

And ofcourse Kasich is ahead, he's gonna win. A moldy hotdog bun could beat Strickland at this point.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:28 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:And ofcourse Kasich is ahead, he's gonna win. A moldy hotdog bun could beat Strickland at this point.



I'd vote for the bun over either...
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:51 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:The President's approval rating means nothing. See the 2004 Election. He'll still win re-election in 2012.


The President's approval rating would mean something if the opposing party offered up a decent candidate. There was nothing to like about John Kerry.

Once Barry starts to lose control over Congress this election and can't get anything done, I wouldn't be so sure about 2012. He'd essentially be a four-year lame duck President or have to assert dictator-esque control to force his agenda.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:11 pm

Skating Tripods wrote:The President's approval rating would mean something if the opposing party offered up a decent candidate. There was nothing to like about John Kerry.


That's always the problem. I facepalmed when Kerry was chosen. It would've been better to run a cardboard box, the similar personalities are obvious. Most Republicans I talk to still have no clue as to who will run in 2012.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:21 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:That's always the problem. I facepalmed when Kerry was chosen. It would've been better to run a cardboard box, the similar personalities are obvious. Most Republicans I talk to still have no clue as to who will run in 2012.


Nobody seems to know. Palin will show up and get blown away during the primary. I wouldn't be against Huckabee and Romney running together. Good mix of moral, economic, geographic, and religious values to appease the entire base.

I think Jindal's loading up for a 2016 run. He's made a few comments that have been negatively interpreted over the last 8-10 months too.

I'm sure Pawlenty's still in the mix somewhere.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:36 pm

I think 2012 depends on how vulnerable Obama really is when the primaries start. Someone like Pawlenty or Jindal arent going to blow their load if Obama cant be beat. If Obama's numbers rebound a bit it is probably going to be a Huckabee v. Romney throwdown.

My sleeper is Paul Ryan rep from Wisconsin. (Hopefully he doesn't run off with some Argentinian woman)
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby jfiling » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:14 pm

McCain was a guy who couldn't beat a ham sandwich.

I think we'd all be better off if Hillary had won.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby jack_tors » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:44 pm

Ziner wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:And ofcourse Kasich is ahead, he's gonna win. A moldy hotdog bun could beat Strickland at this point.



I'd vote for the bun over either...


No kidding. Strickland hasnt done much but I couldnt live with myself if I voted for Kasich. I wish the Republicans would run some new blood for a change so I had to actually think about the choices.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Cease » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:47 pm

Skating Tripods wrote: Nobody seems to know. Palin will show up and get blown away during the primary.


You may have uncovered the serviceable value of Mrs. Sarah Palin. That being the GOP allowing her to trot out in the primary for the sole purpose of giving her the collective :fu: as a party candidate- signalling the message that they've learned something since 2008. Her crowd will get the point and she'll get in line.

IMO, The GOP needs to separate from 2008 completely and follow up with a smart, young-ish candidate to hold up in stark contrast to Obama on the basis of policy. Obama wins again if it comes down to contrasting generations, he'll have to be out-reasoned. Not out-moral-ed, out-smeared, or out-experienced. Global paradigms have shifted and swing voters seem to be looking for the smartest new way to do things.

GOP's got to roll out their economic principles and challenge swing voters to consider the party's logic from the ground up. Find the right passionate voice who chooses logic over dogma and you've got yourself a race. Does that person exist? Would GOP heads be so brave? Dunno.

PS. I think I made a big mistake posting something political. Don't usually do it.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:18 pm

Cease wrote:
Skating Tripods wrote: Nobody seems to know. Palin will show up and get blown away during the primary.


You may have uncovered the serviceable value of Mrs. Sarah Palin. That being the GOP allowing her to trot out in the primary for the sole purpose of giving her the collective :fu: as a party candidate- signalling the message that they've learned something since 2008. Her crowd will get the point and she'll get in line.

IMO, The GOP needs to separate from 2008 completely and follow up with a smart, young-ish candidate to hold up in stark contrast to Obama on the basis of policy. Obama wins again if it comes down to contrasting generations, he'll have to be out-reasoned. Not out-moral-ed, out-smeared, or out-experienced. Global paradigms have shifted and swing voters seem to be looking for the smartest new way to do things.

GOP's got to roll out their economic principles and challenge swing voters to consider the party's logic from the ground up. Find the right passionate voice who chooses logic over dogma and you've got yourself a race. Does that person exist? Would GOP heads be so brave? Dunno.

PS. I think I made a big mistake posting something political. Don't usually do it.


Well please do post more because that was a great post. The GOP is on my nerves quite a bit lately as their rhetoric keeps getting amped up. Its getting old and I don't think it is a winning strategy right now. I think this bill is a potential disaster, but they cant keep coming out and blasting it without ever saying why in a reasoned manner. All of Washington is pretty childish right now, from the right doing their thing, to this garbage about these attacks and slurs and blaming the GOP (hint it is the fault of the people who do it, and Cantor had his office shot at so it isnt just one party acting like loons), to Obama mocking the right with his armeggedeon comment. Someone there has to rise above this garbage, and no one is. Thats why none of them get my vote.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:22 pm

Does anybody that visits this place work in the health insurance industry? In such a capacity that they could answer some detailed questions, either in public for the forum or if preferred in PM?
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby municipalmutt » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:17 pm

Ever heard of the hustle 'two brothers and a stranger"? It was from the Color Of Money.
Republicans are being portrayed by the dems as the patsies of the big health insurance lobby by vehemently opposing health reform. Meanwhile the real con is the fact that the dem's new health bill makes it manditory for everyone to buy health insurance.
So who got fucked here and who made out? If everyone (est 20-30 million) has to purchase health insurance either on their own or gubmint subsidized, how did the health insurance industry get bent over in this? They made out like fucking bandits.

This is why I laugh at people arguing republican or democrat. The end result is the same and would have been the same if the old white dude would have been elected.
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Re: What is this guy doing?

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:42 pm

municipalmutt wrote:Ever heard of the hustle 'two brothers and a stranger"? It was from the Color Of Money.
Republicans are being portrayed by the dems as the patsies of the big health insurance lobby by vehemently opposing health reform. Meanwhile the real con is the fact that the dem's new health bill makes it manditory for everyone to buy health insurance.
So who got fucked here and who made out? If everyone (est 20-30 million) has to purchase health insurance either on their own or gubmint subsidized, how did the health insurance industry get bent over in this? They made out like fucking bandits.

This is why I laugh at people arguing republican or democrat. The end result is the same and would have been the same if the old white dude would have been elected.

From what I've heard insurance companies will be capped, 85% of what they bring in through premiums will have to be put back out in actually cost of care. Meaning they will have to pass that cost on to somebody, pretty much us, and if the anticipated increases in cost hold true, people will simply not be able to afford insurance, rendering insurance companies moot as they will vanish.

I'm paraphrasing a response from somebody I talked with this week (they have 20 years in the business supposedly), which is why I am looking for my opinions from those "in the know".
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