Health Care Reform passes the House

[jfiling]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091108/D9BR59EO0.html

Rather stunning that it was passed so late last night, when I thought the vote would be later today or even Monday.

Fortunately, the Senate bill being considered is so different that reconciliation will be damn near impossible.

Kucinich, shockingly, voted against the bill.

[RC]

Still, this bill shows just how completely out of touch most of Washington is with the people of this county. We should just rename the country the United Socialist States of America and get it over with.

I guess those town hall meetings and tea parties didn't mean anything to most of those representatives.

We are going to get this shitbag of a bill because Harry Reid is going to use the nuclear option. He knows he's probably toast in 2010 anyway so he might as well do it.

Elections have consequences. Stupid fucking Republicans if you actually acted like conservatives instead of this total shit that you did in the 2000s we wouldn't be in the mess we are right now.

[aoxo1]

Still, this bill shows just how completely out of touch most of Washington is with the people of this county. We should just rename the country the United Socialist States of America and get it over with.

I guess those town hall meetings and tea parties didn't mean anything to most of those representatives.

We are going to get this shitbag of a bill because Harry Reid is going to use the nuclear option. He knows he's probably toast in 2010 anyway so he might as well do it.

Elections have consequences. Stupid fucking Republicans if you actually acted like conservatives instead of this total shit that you did in the 2000s we wouldn't be in the mess we are right now.

I know, if the politicians were more in touch with America they would have included a much stronger public option.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02451.html

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Still, this bill shows just how completely out of touch most of Washington is with the people of this county. We should just rename the country the United Socialist States of America and get it over with.

More people want a public option than people who don't. When you say "out of touch", you really mean out of touch with your people, right?

I guess those town hall meetings and tea parties didn't mean anything to most of those representatives.

Good.

Elections have consequences. Stupid fucking Republicans if you actually acted like conservatives instead of this total shit that you did in the 2000s we wouldn't be in the mess we are right now.

I agree with this.

I like the divisive nature the Repubs got going in their own party, they're tearing the GOP asunder.

[Zé Apelido]

Still, this bill shows just how completely out of touch most of Washington is with the people of this county. We should just rename the country the United Socialist States of America and get it over with.

you're out of touch

[Stu]

Kucinich, shockingly, voted against the bill.

Kucinich voted against it because he wants 100% universal, government run health care.

[stonepm]

This public option is a great idea! if you can't afford insurance already, let's make you pay, by law!, an additional $2500 or fine you. I'm sure that will help their economic situation. I also like the way, at least according to the chart, that the subsidies received from the gov't are part of your "total income". Which guess what? I bet you have to pay tax on. Need to do more research on that tho.

[Orenthal]

You can throw up a veritable cornucopia of stats and I will reduce it all to a very simple thought... If the government cannot run the swine flu vaccine, how can they run health care? Insert any clumsy government agency as the the subject to the previous sentence.

[jb]

Still, this bill shows just how completely out of touch most of Washington is with the people of this county. We should just rename the country the United Socialist States of America and get it over with.

I guess those town hall meetings and tea parties didn't mean anything to most of those representatives.

We are going to get this shitbag of a bill because Harry Reid is going to use the nuclear option. He knows he's probably toast in 2010 anyway so he might as well do it.

Elections have consequences. Stupid fucking Republicans if you actually acted like conservatives instead of this total shit that you did in the 2000s we wouldn't be in the mess we are right now.

I don't think they can get it through as is, RC. This is Pelosi sucking her thumb. Too much moderate / centrist oposition. Some mishmosh will get passed we and we won't really understand the impact for years, a public option won't make it in, and the health care oligopoly will lie low and control costs until the trough is safe to re-approach politically. Same thing they did after ' 93.

But I've suggested this to you before and I'll do so again. For a indy contracting hard-working guy who has no way of affording a decent plan and every day is playing roulette with your lifetime financial situation, you of all folks should see past the labels and hysteria, apprceiate the nuance and complexities of this issue and all the interwoven parts, and understand that some form of affordable option via regulation is the best thing that could happen to you, like, ever. If not, you will eventually get hit and lose everything via bankruptcy. This isn't about welfare caddy queens getting gubmint socialism. It should be about the middle class getting a doctor instead of a for extreme profit proctologist treatment from some mid-managing bureaucrat lining the poickets of shareholders and CEO's off of your and your family's illness.

Don't believe the hype.

You are far, far more likely to live the life of Matt Dillon's character in "Crash" than you are to have to go to a Nurenberg rally anytime in you or your childrens' lifetimes. That is the real issue.

[Ziner]

Just wondering if anyone has priced health insurance plans before? I had to do a paper on employer provided health insurance for a class about a month ago and actually priced examples of different plans. Try it yourself. http://www.ehealthinsurance.com. There is no way the government is going to compete with these prices. The only way they can is by setting their own price and sticking it to the medical community.

For example in the first one from that graph. For someone earning 30K with no insurance. They can get a plan for $196 through Kaiser with no deductible and no copay. That isnt cheap, but I bet that same person spends that much on cable, internet, cell phone and has a iphone with the $30 a month data plan.

Or if you cant give that up, for $44 bucks you can get something to cover catastrophic events and cover 100% of everything over $7500, just one night at the bar for that same person.

See that is my problem. We are going to be paying for a lot of health insurance for people who can afford it but just dont want to sacrifice anything for it. Public option, no public option, whatever, just not interested in helping people who don't want to help themselves.

[jb]

See that is my problem. We are going to be paying for a lot of health insurance for people who can afford it but just dont want to sacrifice anything for it. Public option, no public option, whatever, just not interested in helping people who don't want to help themselves.

In sentiment, I am with you Z. That might surprise some peeple. But I'm tellin' yah, in reality yer gonna pay for it either way. This isn't like some $ 120 pair of Bron Nike's where if you can't pay you don't get none. This is health care payment. Insurance or not, money or not, some number of people will still go to hospitals, get treated, and say "fuck it" and not pay and file bankruptcy or just not care. Otherwise good people who foolishly roll the dice will get sick, be financially ruined, and the economy will suffer and we'll STILL have to pay for them.

The US of A isn't going to become Calcutta where people will step over dead and dying on city streets in any numbers. No one is going to just let children die. Debtor prisons are illegal per the BoR. It won't happen. So the answer isn't to hold our breath and turn blue and pout and yell "scoialism", the answer is to be pragmatic and come up with a solution. I say try everything.

Having a public option that is self-sustaining and a choice to select -- that's my personal litmus test -- is no more likely to create a communist USA than is having the Ohio State University. If it is a money hole, NFW. Country is broke as a joke.

My pet peeve is when logic is replaced with dogma for no fucking reason.

[Ziner]

See that is my problem. We are going to be paying for a lot of health insurance for people who can afford it but just dont want to sacrifice anything for it. Public option, no public option, whatever, just not interested in helping people who don't want to help themselves.

In sentiment, I am with you Z. That might surprise some peeple. But I'm tellin' yah, in reality yer gonna pay for it either way. This isn't like some $ 120 pair of Bron Nike's where if you can't pay you don't get none. This is health care payment. Insurance or not, money or not, some number of people will still go to hospitals, get treated, and say "fuck it" and not pay and file bankruptcy or just not care. Otherwise good people who foolishly roll the dice will get sick, be financially ruined, and the economy will suffer and we'll STILL have to pay for them.

The US of A isn't going to become Calcutta where people will step over dead and dying on city streets in any numbers. No one is going to just let children die. Debtor prisons are illegal per the BoR. It won't happen. So the answer isn't to hold our breath and turn blue and pout and yell "scoialism", the answer is to be pragmatic and come up with a solution. I say try everything.

Having a public option that is self-sustaining and a choice to select -- that's my personal litmus test -- is no more likely to create a communist USA than is having the Ohio State University. If it is a money hole, NFW. Country is broke as a joke.

My pet peeve is when logic is replaced with dogma for no fucking reason.

I know we are paying for it one way or another, but 1.2 TRILLION. That is 4K for every man woman and child in this country which is crazy in itself. However this is to insure what 50 million or something? so now we are talking about 24K a person we are insuring. You're telling me you cant find these people a private plan for less than 24K a person? I found one for an individual for $200 a month that covered pretty much everything. The government involved is a disaster, not saying insurance companies aren't greedy bastards, but it should not cost 24K a person to cover 50 million people. How does this math make sense? Its a shitty bill that will probably get hacked up, but honestly with out a public option, the bill is even worse. What are we paying for?

Beyond that, they have no problem putting penalties in the bill for people who dont have health insurance in the new bill. Why not just have that be a bill and make people over certain incomes get it from a plan that already exists and add features to get the costs down in private plans? For the people who are deemed to actually not afford it, then you can talk about a public option or helping them get in to a private plan.

Just basing it off that graph we (taxpayers) would pay 5K for a family making 75K. Forgive me for being a dick, but if you are making 75K you should be able to afford health insurance. I am not saying they wouldnt need to make sacrifices, but doesnt everyone? My wife and I make a decent amount, but on top of paying for insurance through our employer we have almost 1K a month in student loans that we took on to better our lives and have an opportunity to get employer provided coverage. Some people dont want to buy their own insurance and we foot the bill, well I dont feel like making my student loan payments, why doesnt someone cover that for me? My life would be much more comfortable with an extra grand a month in my pocket, but I dont expect someone to cover that for me.

[jb]

See that is my problem. We are going to be paying for a lot of health insurance for people who can afford it but just dont want to sacrifice anything for it. Public option, no public option, whatever, just not interested in helping people who don't want to help themselves.

In sentiment, I am with you Z. That might surprise some peeple. But I'm tellin' yah, in reality yer gonna pay for it either way. This isn't like some $ 120 pair of Bron Nike's where if you can't pay you don't get none. This is health care payment. Insurance or not, money or not, some number of people will still go to hospitals, get treated, and say "fuck it" and not pay and file bankruptcy or just not care. Otherwise good people who foolishly roll the dice will get sick, be financially ruined, and the economy will suffer and we'll STILL have to pay for them.

The US of A isn't going to become Calcutta where people will step over dead and dying on city streets in any numbers. No one is going to just let children die. Debtor prisons are illegal per the BoR. It won't happen. So the answer isn't to hold our breath and turn blue and pout and yell "scoialism", the answer is to be pragmatic and come up with a solution. I say try everything.

Having a public option that is self-sustaining and a choice to select -- that's my personal litmus test -- is no more likely to create a communist USA than is having the Ohio State University. If it is a money hole, NFW. Country is broke as a joke.

My pet peeve is when logic is replaced with dogma for no fucking reason.

I know we are paying for it one way or another, but 1.2 TRILLION. That is 4K for every man woman and child in this country which is crazy in itself. However this is to insure what 50 million or something? so now we are talking about 24K a person we are insuring. You're telling me you cant find these people a private plan for less than 24K a person? I found one for an individual for $200 a month that covered pretty much everything. The government involved is a disaster, not saying insurance companies aren't greedy bastards, but it should not cost 24K a person to cover 50 million people. How does this math make sense? Its a shitty bill that will probably get hacked up, but honestly with out a public option, the bill is even worse. What are we paying for?

Beyond that, they have no problem putting penalties in the bill for people who dont have health insurance in the new bill. Why not just have that be a bill and make people over certain incomes get it from a plan that already exists and add features to get the costs down in private plans? For the people who are deemed to actually not afford it, then you can talk about a public option or helping them get in to a private plan.

Just basing it off that graph we (taxpayers) would pay 5K for a family making 75K. Forgive me for being a dick, but if you are making 75K you should be able to afford health insurance. I am not saying they wouldnt need to make sacrifices, but doesnt everyone? My wife and I make a decent amount, but on top of paying for insurance through our employer we have almost 1K a month in student loans that we took on to better our lives and have an opportunity to get employer provided coverage. Some people dont want to buy their own insurance and we foot the bill, well I dont feel like making my student loan payments, why doesnt someone cover that for me? My life would be much more comfortable with an extra grand a month in my pocket, but I dont expect someone to cover that for me.

I'm with you on alot of this Z. It's just that time and again it never is that simple as it sounds.


BTW - If your loans were UG loans from a FELP or direct lending program, you can PM me and I'll tell you where you can repay me as a taxpayer.

What I don't want is this scenario:

- employer based model disappears

- I don't get that money paid to me by my employer. They just pocket it. Or if they don't, now my ass is taxed like the rest of my salary at a retarded rate so it can be spent on military - industrial nonsense and non-means tested welfare for > 65 living their ponzi dreams.

- Now I gotta pay full freight w/ out the tax break. I'm doubly fucked. It is a new expense and I didn't get the money dollar for dollar. If I do, NFW will my annual raises match the speed of health care inflation.

And here is my issue with "competition". This isn't a bunch of pizza shops competing for my buck where a pepparoni is a pepparoni. These fucktards will rig this shit via lobbying and arcane rules, Z. They will make it 100 times more complex than a cell phone plan. So people will get themselves into trouble buying cut rate plans that don't cover them. They won't buy insurance, they'll buy coupons.

Living in the middle, I don't love the gubmint. I don't think it is the solution to everything. But I sure as fuck don't see corprate America as some bastion of successful solutions. Their reason for being is to max profit from quarter to quarter for shareholders, nothing less. That's how it must be, but damn they are collectively dumb and then have their hands out more than an army of Octomoms. And less than 10 multi-billion companies to share a mandated market without appropriate regulation and cost containments? BOHICA baby. BOHICA.

I fear my gubmint in a political theory sense far less than I fear corporate greed jerry rigging the tax laws and my "options" and destroying my quality of life.

At the end of the day this isn't about moving a commodity. It is about buying health care insurance. And health coverage is damn near perfectly inelastic, buddy. Unless one of y'all wants to tell me you'd just say "fuck it, I am going to allow my child to die if the bill is > $ X " and mean it.

That means a pure market solution won't work.

Best you can hope for is a cat and mouse regulated for profit clusterfuck.

BTW dude, I always enjoy talking w/ you about this stuff. We may not always agree, but at least it feels like I'm threading with a damn grown up.

[aoxo1]

Ziner, that 1.2 trillion (which is inaccurate, numbers I have seen for House and Senate bills are in the 800-900 billion range) is over the 10 year life of the bill. So your 24k per person is 2.4k per person per year.

You keep saying you could find health insurance on the open market for $200/month. How about if you have to buy it for your kids? How about if you have a preexisting condition? How about if you weren't a young, healthy male? How about when the insurance companies recission your ass when you actually get sick?

Because if health insurance were really that cheap, this wouldn't even be up for debate. It's not; I believe our per capita spending is 15k per year.

Truth is that we spend something like twice as much as the rest of the world per capita on health care and our spending is increasing faster than all of them as well, without anywhere close to universal coverage, and get comparable outcomes (overall, don't pick and choose a few ailments please) AT BEST and compared to most countries do worse. Every other country does it with some sort of government run, government paid, or heavily government regulated system.

If you want to argue that somehow the US is incapable of doing what every other modern country does, that's your right. But the truth is that we spend way more and are not getting anything for it. There are plenty of models that work out there; hell, the VA and Medicare are two examples of government run health care in this country that cost less than private insurance and get higher marks for satisfaction.

There is a lot to not like about this bill, and if it were up to me I would just expand Medicare to everyone, since that would actually be fairly easy and straightforward, allow people to buy supplementary private insurance, and be done with it, but it is flat out ignorant to say that costs in our current system are not a problem.

[RC]

I fear my gubmint in a political theory sense far less than I fear corporate greed jerry rigging the tax laws and my "options" and destroying my quality of life.

Here it is. This is really the crux of the issue.

I fear the 'gubmint' more than corporate guys. This is where you and I disagree, JB. But you are right, by the time this giant turd hits the Senate and conference and all that jazz this bill will be significantly different than it is now.

Oh, and for CDT, in the end if people can go to 'tea parties' and / or protests and it doesn't matter anymore than that is just shit. I'm not asking for my local official to jump through hoops or anything but it would be nice to get a fucking response from these ass clowns in government just once in a while. I hate Tim Ryan.

You know what? I give up. Why even waste my time voting anymore?

I feel more apathetic toward government than I do towards the Browns. And that's pretty bad.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Oh, and for CDT, in the end if people can go to 'tea parties' and / or protests and it doesn't matter anymore than that is just shit. I'm not asking for my local official to jump through hoops or anything but it would be nice to get a fucking response from these ass clowns in government just once in a while. I hate Tim Ryan.

Why should a Democrat give a crap about what these tea party folks have to say? They're going to piss and moan no matter what Obama and Dems do, so why care? It's not like these people comparing Obama to Hitler are going to vote Dem anyway.

When the shoe was on the other foot during the last guy's admin, the right had no problem dismissing the left's protests and they even called them "unpatriotic" for objecting to the awful ideas Brainless II had.
_______________________________________________________________________________

As for the Public Option, i'm all for it. Because it means the poor bastard working at Burger King for $7/hr can go the doctor if he needs to. If some here gets laid off, they have access to healthcare for themselves and family. It gives someone who has been fucked over by big insurance another option. People can scream about "paying for other people" all they want, I don't see the downside to helping people who need it.

I think everyone against it, would be all for it if they needed it.

[FUDU]

Oh, and for CDT, in the end if people can go to 'tea parties' and / or protests and it doesn't matter anymore than that is just shit. I'm not asking for my local official to jump through hoops or anything but it would be nice to get a fucking response from these ass clowns in government just once in a while. I hate Tim Ryan.

_______________________________________________________________________________

As for the Public Option, i'm all for it. Because it means the poor bastard working at Burger King for $7/hr can go the doctor if he needs to. If some here gets laid off, they have access to healthcare for themselves and family. It gives someone who has been fucked over by big insurance another option. People can scream about "paying for other people" all they want, I don't see the downside to helping people who need it.

I think everyone against it, would be all for it if they needed it.

You don't see a downside to constantly giving people stuff that others have to earn and obtain for themselves?

That is a big ole WTF.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Oh, and for CDT, in the end if people can go to 'tea parties' and / or protests and it doesn't matter anymore than that is just shit. I'm not asking for my local official to jump through hoops or anything but it would be nice to get a fucking response from these ass clowns in government just once in a while. I hate Tim Ryan.

_______________________________________________________________________________

As for the Public Option, i'm all for it. Because it means the poor bastard working at Burger King for $7/hr can go the doctor if he needs to. If some here gets laid off, they have access to healthcare for themselves and family. It gives someone who has been fucked over by big insurance another option. People can scream about "paying for other people" all they want, I don't see the downside to helping people who need it.

I think everyone against it, would be all for it if they needed it.

You don't see a downside to constantly giving people stuff that others have to earn and obtain for themselves?

That is a big ole WTF.

Because all the people who would use the public option are people who haven't earned anything. It's not like there are people who do work and still don't have insurance, or people who have been laid off.

There are millions of Americans without insurance, and the majority aren't lazy leeches. They have eanred it, but for one reason or another, they couldn't obtain it. Helping those people makes the program worth it.

I gotta ask, you wouldn't use the public option if you were laid off and sick, or if you had your claim rejected by an insurance company?

[FUDU]

Oh, and for CDT, in the end if people can go to 'tea parties' and / or protests and it doesn't matter anymore than that is just shit. I'm not asking for my local official to jump through hoops or anything but it would be nice to get a fucking response from these ass clowns in government just once in a while. I hate Tim Ryan.

_______________________________________________________________________________

As for the Public Option, i'm all for it. Because it means the poor bastard working at Burger King for $7/hr can go the doctor if he needs to. If some here gets laid off, they have access to healthcare for themselves and family. It gives someone who has been fucked over by big insurance another option. People can scream about "paying for other people" all they want, I don't see the downside to helping people who need it.

I think everyone against it, would be all for it if they needed it.

You don't see a downside to constantly giving people stuff that others have to earn and obtain for themselves?

That is a big ole WTF.

Because all the people who would use the public option are people who haven't earned anything. It's not like there are people who do work and still don't have insurance, or people who have been laid off.

There are millions of Americans without insurance, and the majority aren't lazy leeches. They have eanred it, but for one reason or another, they couldn't obtain it. Helping those people makes the program worth it.

I gotta ask, you wouldn't use the public option if you were laid off and sick, or if you had your claim rejected by an insurance company?

That is the million dollar question, just how many people truly do not have coverage, and more importantly why don't they. Allowing people a bit of safety net is completely different than the handout of total health care coverage when a person is able to pay for it like the vast vast majority of the rest of the country can.

There are tons and tons of people that make a respectable living that do not have health care coverage just b/c they choose not to (for their own various reasons), that is fine, that is their business, but don't put it on the rest of this society to pay up for them or others.

This all boils down to one thing, punishing the many that do it right to reward the few that don't do at all. That is really all this country has become about in the last decade, and it seems the new HMFIC wants to speed up that process.

[jb]

Oh, and for CDT, in the end if people can go to 'tea parties' and / or protests and it doesn't matter anymore than that is just shit. I'm not asking for my local official to jump through hoops or anything but it would be nice to get a fucking response from these ass clowns in government just once in a while. I hate Tim Ryan.

_______________________________________________________________________________

As for the Public Option, i'm all for it. Because it means the poor bastard working at Burger King for $7/hr can go the doctor if he needs to. If some here gets laid off, they have access to healthcare for themselves and family. It gives someone who has been fucked over by big insurance another option. People can scream about "paying for other people" all they want, I don't see the downside to helping people who need it.

I think everyone against it, would be all for it if they needed it.

You don't see a downside to constantly giving people stuff that others have to earn and obtain for themselves?

That is a big ole WTF.

Because all the people who would use the public option are people who haven't earned anything. It's not like there are people who do work and still don't have insurance, or people who have been laid off.

There are millions of Americans without insurance, and the majority aren't lazy leeches. They have eanred it, but for one reason or another, they couldn't obtain it. Helping those people makes the program worth it.

I gotta ask, you wouldn't use the public option if you were laid off and sick, or if you had your claim rejected by an insurance company?

This.

FUDU, public option not = welfare.

Most working poor actually bust ass. And BTW - what we used to call the "working class" is now being forced into the working poor.

[FUDU]

Oh, and for CDT, in the end if people can go to 'tea parties' and / or protests and it doesn't matter anymore than that is just shit. I'm not asking for my local official to jump through hoops or anything but it would be nice to get a fucking response from these ass clowns in government just once in a while. I hate Tim Ryan.

_______________________________________________________________________________

As for the Public Option, i'm all for it. Because it means the poor bastard working at Burger King for $7/hr can go the doctor if he needs to. If some here gets laid off, they have access to healthcare for themselves and family. It gives someone who has been fucked over by big insurance another option. People can scream about "paying for other people" all they want, I don't see the downside to helping people who need it.

I think everyone against it, would be all for it if they needed it.

You don't see a downside to constantly giving people stuff that others have to earn and obtain for themselves?

That is a big ole WTF.

Because all the people who would use the public option are people who haven't earned anything. It's not like there are people who do work and still don't have insurance, or people who have been laid off.

There are millions of Americans without insurance, and the majority aren't lazy leeches. They have eanred it, but for one reason or another, they couldn't obtain it. Helping those people makes the program worth it.

I gotta ask, you wouldn't use the public option if you were laid off and sick, or if you had your claim rejected by an insurance company?

This.

FUDU, public option not = welfare.

Most working poor actually bust ass. And BTW - what we used to call the "working class" is now being forced into the working poor.

I understand there is a difference between a complete hand out here and the public option. In the end these bills being proposed are all about taking more money out of all of our pockets. Nothing more, nothing less.

I want no part of any of it. Put the truth out there, let us in on exactly what cost what and then let's judge the system we have.

[jb]

In the end these bills being proposed are all about taking more money out of all of our pockets. Nothing more, nothing less.

I want no part of any of it. Put the truth out there, let us in on exactly what cost what and then let's judge the system we have.

The "truth" ? Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit.

And I want no part of spending my money chasing 3rd world boogeymen. Let them fuck around being medievil in Afghanistan and just hunt down al quaeda. I don't want my moeny paying soc security to > 65 who have enough jack becasue "they paid into it". Yeah. They got their entire 1950's dollar value contribution in like 3 years. And it slays me that my tax dollars pay for DARE. Hillarious.

Guess what? Whaaaaaaaaahhhhh.

And there is NFW you have a real idea what is in all this incomplete legislation, so just stop it. Allow us to take you seriously. You're in no way following this bouncing ball.

[jb]

Oh, and for CDT, in the end if people can go to 'tea parties' and / or protests and it doesn't matter anymore than that is just shit. I'm not asking for my local official to jump through hoops or anything but it would be nice to get a fucking response from these ass clowns in government just once in a while. I hate Tim Ryan.

_______________________________________________________________________________

As for the Public Option, i'm all for it. Because it means the poor bastard working at Burger King for $7/hr can go the doctor if he needs to. If some here gets laid off, they have access to healthcare for themselves and family. It gives someone who has been fucked over by big insurance another option. People can scream about "paying for other people" all they want, I don't see the downside to helping people who need it.

I think everyone against it, would be all for it if they needed it.

You don't see a downside to constantly giving people stuff that others have to earn and obtain for themselves?

That is a big ole WTF.

Because all the people who would use the public option are people who haven't earned anything. It's not like there are people who do work and still don't have insurance, or people who have been laid off.

There are millions of Americans without insurance, and the majority aren't lazy leeches. They have eanred it, but for one reason or another, they couldn't obtain it. Helping those people makes the program worth it.

I gotta ask, you wouldn't use the public option if you were laid off and sick, or if you had your claim rejected by an insurance company?

That is the million dollar question, just how many people truly do not have coverage, and more importantly why don't they. Allowing people a bit of safety net is completely different than the handout of total health care coverage when a person is able to pay for it like the vast vast majority of the rest of the country can.

There are tons and tons of people that make a respectable living that do not have health care coverage just b/c they choose not to (for their own various reasons), that is fine, that is their business, .

No it's not.

Because when life inevitably hands a certain percentage of them a kick in the ass they go to the ER anyway. THEY DPON'T JUST BYPASS HEALTHCARE. Then they fuckin' whine and don't pay. Then those who pay by the rules end up paying for them.

Enough. They are a huge part of the problem, as are many, many other facits from trial lawyers to greedy insurance corporations, but the sacred cow interests rule our legislative branch with an iron hand in BOTH parties.

You know what a society based on the norms of a western democracy means? Your freedom to swing your elbow ends at my nose.

[FUDU]

In the end these bills being proposed are all about taking more money out of all of our pockets. Nothing more, nothing less.

I want no part of any of it. Put the truth out there, let us in on exactly what cost what and then let's judge the system we have.

The "truth" ? Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit.

And I want no part of spending my money chasing 3rd world boogeymen. Let them fuck around being medievil in Afghanistan and just hunt down al quaeda. I don't want my moeny paying soc security to > 65 who have enough jack becasue "they paid into it". Yeah. They got their entire 1950's dollar value contribution in like 3 years. And it slays me that my tax dollars pay for DARE. Hillarious.

Guess what? Whaaaaaaaaahhhhh.

And there is NFW you have a real idea what is in all this incomplete legislation, so just stop it. Allow us to take you seriously. You're in no way following this bouncing ball.

Exactly nobody is following this bouncing ball, nobody, not even the people we pay to do so and represent us.

They admit it, they can't.

That is how all these crimes get passed, too much info not enough time and guts to put a stop to it.

BTW are we transparent yet, didn't think so.

You're smart guy (usually) and I am sure you do fine for yourself, how much of the money you make do you keep, bet it's right at 50%.

That is criminal, that is perpetual SSDD.

[jb]

In the end these bills being proposed are all about taking more money out of all of our pockets. Nothing more, nothing less.

I want no part of any of it. Put the truth out there, let us in on exactly what cost what and then let's judge the system we have.

The "truth" ? Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit.

And I want no part of spending my money chasing 3rd world boogeymen. Let them fuck around being medievil in Afghanistan and just hunt down al quaeda. I don't want my moeny paying soc security to > 65 who have enough jack becasue "they paid into it". Yeah. They got their entire 1950's dollar value contribution in like 3 years. And it slays me that my tax dollars pay for DARE. Hillarious.

Guess what? Whaaaaaaaaahhhhh.

And there is NFW you have a real idea what is in all this incomplete legislation, so just stop it. Allow us to take you seriously. You're in no way following this bouncing ball.

Exactly nobody is following this bouncing ball, nobody, not even the people we pay to do so and represent us.

They admit it, they can't.

A freakin' men, glad to have you back from the clutches of the ideological anti-intellectual raving loons, FUDU.

In the end, something in the line of a massing compromise will get done. It will fix some things, make some things worse, and we'll see what we seen in about 5 years.

That's as good as it gets in this process, buddy. Other than that you just try to see if your self interests are remorely met.

But the staus quo is not an option. It's just not.

[FUDU]

A freakin' men, glad to have you back from the clutches of the ideological anti-intellectual raving loons, FUDU.

In the end, something in the line of a massing compromise will get done. It will fix some things, make some things worse, and we'll see what we seen in about 5 years.

That's as good as it gets in this process, buddy. Other than that you just try to see if your self interests are remorely met.

But the staus quo is not an option. It's just not.

You probably just read me wrong, I bet we are in strong agreement on this topic, and the overriding topic in general.

I agree that SOME change is needed, but defining the parts that need fixing is what is needed here first, not a complete engine overhaul b/c you have some lifters ticking.

Compromise is just a fancy way of saying we have no idea what we are doing so we are through our hands in the air and are sugar coating what we've done for everyone's individual interests.

Fix it right the right the first time only exists in repair shops? I don't think so.

No new taxes.

If it aint this it's that. Nobody cares b/c there is always an escape door for no accountability, except in the real worlds that you & I live in that drive the wheels of motion for the other "real" world.

The herd needs thinning out, I'm game, are you.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

If it aint this it's that. Nobody cares b/c there is always an escape door for no accountability, except in the real worlds that you & I live in that drive the wheels of motion for the other "real" world.

Are you suggesting people who don't have healthcare have no accountability? Or are you talking about politicians?

The herd needs thinning out, I'm game, are you.

Same question as above, are you talking about DC or Americans?

Still waiting on you to answer my question I asked up thread. If you were out of work and sick or had a claim rejected by an insurance comapny, would you take advantage of the public option?

[Ziner]

Ziner, that 1.2 trillion (which is inaccurate, numbers I have seen for House and Senate bills are in the 800-900 billion range) is over the 10 year life of the bill. So your 24k per person is 2.4k per person per year.

You're right my bad, it is over 10 years, that was idiotic of me. I have read that the house bill is 1.2 trillion, senate at 800 billion. Let me know the last government program that was on or below budget.

You keep saying you could find health insurance on the open market for $200/month. How about if you have to buy it for your kids? How about if you have a preexisting condition? How about if you weren't a young, healthy male? How about when the insurance companies recission your ass when you actually get sick?

Never said people with preexisting conditions shouldnt be covered. There are always exceptions, but it doesnt change the fact that there are plenty of people who are young, healthy, males who just dont bother to buy insurance because they dont want to spend the money. I am all for people who cant afford health care to get it, I am not all for us paying for people who can afford it, but choose not to. Additionally if those people cant afford the $200 or $400 a month or whatever it might be, how are they going to afford their contribution this bill makes them add?

but it is flat out ignorant to say that costs in our current system are not a problem.

Never said that because I agree, but what is this bill doing to curb costs besides passing them on to the taxpayer.

[jfiling]

You're right my bad, it is over 10 years, that was idiotic of me. I have read that the house bill is 1.2 trillion, senate at 800 billion. Let me know the last government program that was on or below budget.

AFAIK, the next one will be the first one.

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the issue of abortion in the House health care bill. A cookie to the first person who figures out why the House "compromise" is bullshit.

[RC]

Still waiting on you to answer my question I asked up thread. If you were out of work and sick or had a claim rejected by an insurance comapny, would you take advantage of the public option?

I'll answer that question. Yes I would take advantage of it. You know why?

Because I'm going to be paying for it. If I decide to not have health coverage or my current coverage (yes I bought catastrophic insurance JB) does not cover it I'm going to be fined for not having coverage.

So since I'm paying for it I might as well use it. And believe me, I'll make sure I use it a ton. Just like everyone else that currently doesn't have insurance.

Or maybe I'll just pay the penalty until I get sick then since I can't get denied for a preexisting condition I'll just get insurance then and then drop it once I'm well again and keep paying the fine. And considering how many crooked accountants there are I'll probably be able to get around paying that too.

That should be fun on the system.

[jb]

Still waiting on you to answer my question I asked up thread. If you were out of work and sick or had a claim rejected by an insurance comapny, would you take advantage of the public option?

I'll answer that question. Yes I would take advantage of it. You know why?

Because I'm going to be paying for it. If I decide to not have health coverage or my current coverage (yes I bought catastrophic insurance JB) does not cover it I'm going to be fined for not having coverage.

So since I'm paying for it I might as well use it. And believe me, I'll make sure I use it a ton. Just like everyone else that currently doesn't have insurance.

Or maybe I'll just pay the penalty until I get sick then since I can't get denied for a preexisting condition I'll just get insurance then and then drop it once I'm well again and keep paying the fine. And considering how many crooked accountants there are I'll probably be able to get around paying that too.

That should be fun on the system.

Then again, you don't understand the public option.

AFAIK and read, it includes medicare with tweaks and all those poeple, then a form of national medicaid instead of giving that burdon to the states that can't handle it, and then those who don't qualify for either have the opportunity to buy policies at cost. It isn't a free handout for everyone.

It removes the profit inefficiency from cost models and should run at cost for the non-subsidized populations. If the for profits don't run leaner, and keep operating in a state of hyperinflation, they won't be able to compete.

Again, I keep asking. If the gub mint is so inefficient and inept, why is the private sector scared to compete? They should be licking their chops. But instead they are whining for a huge subsidy dump into a private market now bolstered by participation mandates. IOW, troughs open, line up piggies, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyyy.

[jb]

The herd needs thinning out, I'm game, are you.

I was watching Matthews interview this senator yesterday and he just went all ADD on him. It waas hillarious. He just knocked his dick in the dirt when he started the party line and kept asking him why can't there be a political party that acts to actually solve the problems iof the American people and isn't beholden to their monied interests.

You can throw any individual you want out of congress. You can swop parties in power. Nothing will change. Too much money, too much entrenchment, and hitting re-set isn't a realistic option. A few thousand whack job neck wannabe who've watched too much "Red Dawn" running around in camo with modified assault rifles are no match for the government aka the United States Armed Forces ( you know, the government agency that the wing nuts professs to love and worship as they criticize the gubmint ) .

Obama tapped into that change/re-set sentiment and you saw half the country buy in, and the other half just go off the deep end. before anyone jumps my shit, the same exact freaking thing would happen if things were reversed. Any change agent not beholden enough will be eaten alive by the monied apparatus. You can see it happen.

The best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep.

[FUDU]

If it aint this it's that. Nobody cares b/c there is always an escape door for no accountability, except in the real worlds that you & I live in that drive the wheels of motion for the other "real" world.

Are you suggesting people who don't have healthcare have no accountability? Or are you talking about politicians?

The herd needs thinning out, I'm game, are you.

Same question as above, are you talking about DC or Americans?

Still waiting on you to answer my question I asked up thread. If you were out of work and sick or had a claim rejected by an insurance comapny, would you take advantage of the public option?

A little of both, mostly the asshole politicians. Quick IE: I have a friend of a friend who is a very nice girl, works in the service industry and got pregnant. Has no official health insurance, had the baby (everything went well, which I am glad for her) but it was 100% on the tax payer. She makes decent to very respectable money from my understanding....how is she being accountable in that situation? Good person making bad, selfish choices and not being accountable.

As for the politicians, don't even get me started.

Would I in the situation you described, I am sure I would resort to it at some point if I had to. Again though the problem is coming up with a blanket like solution to solve a problem that is most likely much more isolated and specific...but we won't go about with more sensible and detailed problem solving so we are all going to get screwed in the end.

[FUDU]

This all ties into a much bigger issue, similar to the housing problems and the tax credits/safety nets for some "select" home owners v. other "non qualifying" home owners.

It's all complete lazy BS.

Repositioning/redistribution of wealth (or revenue in the case of us little guys b/c how can you call it wealth when we only keep 50% of what we earn).

First and foremost with this HC stuff is taking care of the Vets and the elderly, b/c the former was earned and b/c the latter is inevitable for all of us. Deal with the rest of us after that.

[Ziner]

Again, I keep asking. If the gub mint is so inefficient and inept, why is the private sector scared to compete?

1. The gubmint is going to drop a trillion dollars in to this industry. Wouldn't the insurance companies be stupid for not trying to get their hands all over it?

2. After someone tells me the last government program that came in under budget tell me the last time a government program didnt grow in size. We have seen this play out before, start giving handouts (and by handouts I mean helping people can help themselves, not the people who actually need it) and everyone starts lining up. They figure if everyone else is getting it why dont they. How many small businesses are going to be reassessing their provided health care and consider dropping it? As of right now the Baucus bill would fine them for $400 per employee for doing so, chances are these companies are paying thousands for health care. Why are small businesses going to want to offer health care and subsidize it, when they can get the government to. What happens when 20 million more people than expected show up at the line waiting to get their subsidized health care? This brings me back to your original question, you don't think they see the strong possibility that the private insurance customer base drops?

You know for me, this all just comes down to the fact that I am tired of giving people things they don't deserve, and don't interpret that wrong, I am sick of having to have to say that by the way. People need health care and they cant afford it, people have pre-existing conditions and need to be covered, yeah, I understand this I am not an idiot. The point is, I live on a budget, I take care of myself, I dont have 2 new cars, I dont own a house I cant afford, I dont have an iphone or a data plan on my cell phone. We just helped how many people stay in their homes that they couldn't afford and now we are going to be expected to foot 3K on a family ONLY earning 75K because they have 2 kids. Well forgive me for being an ass, but dont have children if you cant afford to take care of them. (which takes me to a whole new point of why people who choose to have children get all these extra benefits) We bail out companies for making bad decisions, we bail out homeowners for making bad decisions and now we are supposed to take care of this family of 4 because they dont want to budget in health insurance and give them 3K? I am tired of it.

My wife's sister is 21, didnt want to go to college, didnt want to go to a trade school, works as a hostess maybe 30 hours a week, was offered to become a waitress and earn more money and didnt want to, gets her nails done weekly, goes tanning, has the new blackberry, buys her boyfriend extravagant gifts. The government is going to look at her and see 12K a year in income (if that). She is going to be one of the people who cant "afford" it and probably have the whole plan covered for her. I am sick of that, I have countless other people I know in the same situation, hell I went to high school with 30 of them. Do you want to pay for that?

[FUDU]

After someone tells me the last government program that came in under budget tell me the last time a government program didnt grow in size. We have seen this play out before, start giving handouts (and by handouts I mean helping people can help themselves, not the people who actually need it) and everyone starts lining up. They figure if everyone else is getting it why dont they.

Ties into the point above concerning this housing crisis. I did it right when I bought my house. Bought in my range and had to wait to do so. Missed out on FTHBTC by 72 hours. Now to my understanding there is another stipulation expanding these tax credits to people who have owned home for an X number of years (don't know all the details yet), which I have not owned that long.

So since I am paying for others F ups in this market is it wrong of me to want some of that for myself?

[jb]

If it aint this it's that. Nobody cares b/c there is always an escape door for no accountability, except in the real worlds that you & I live in that drive the wheels of motion for the other "real" world.

Are you suggesting people who don't have healthcare have no accountability? Or are you talking about politicians?

The herd needs thinning out, I'm game, are you.

Same question as above, are you talking about DC or Americans?

Still waiting on you to answer my question I asked up thread. If you were out of work and sick or had a claim rejected by an insurance comapny, would you take advantage of the public option?

A little of both, mostly the asshole politicians. Quick IE: I have a friend of a friend who is a very nice girl, works in the service industry and got pregnant. Has no official health insurance, had the baby (everything went well, which I am glad for her) but it was 100% on the tax payer. She makes decent to very respectable money from my understanding....how is she being accountable in that situation? Good person making bad, selfish choices and not being accountable.

She chose life.

So F her and the baby, right?

Seriously, I hear you. Just pointing out the chasm between the two parties you have to choose from.

That gets you what you get.

[jb]

2. After someone tells me the last government program that came in under budget tell me the last time a government program didnt grow in size.

Can we just drop this stupid partisan red herring bullshit and disucss the issues free from wearing the jerseys?

Here is the only fact here.

The US fedral gubmint runs thousands of freaking programs and initiatives. It takes an industry of trained statest apparatus to track and evaluate all of this shit. I can fucking guarantee you that there are so many programs that come in at or under budget it would make your head spin, but neither you no I have access of expertise to tap into that data from a non-biased perspective.

Look, you know that I'm right on this.

Can we just talk health care issues?

BTW - Just one off the top of my head. Take a look at the the background of he Conrail consolidation / bailout.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/opinion/2009/04/01/obama-and-the-government-can-save-detroit-if-history-is-any-indicator.html

[jb]

After someone tells me the last government program that came in under budget tell me the last time a government program didnt grow in size. We have seen this play out before, start giving handouts (and by handouts I mean helping people can help themselves, not the people who actually need it) and everyone starts lining up. They figure if everyone else is getting it why dont they.

Ties into the point above concerning this housing crisis. I did it right when I bought my house. Bought in my range and had to wait to do so. Missed out on FTHBTC by 72 hours. Now to my understanding there is another stipulation expanding these tax credits to people who have owned home for an X number of years (don't know all the details yet), which I have not owned that long.

So since I am paying for others F ups in this market is it wrong of me to want some of that for myself?

Hammer meet nail.

It's completely fucked up.

Dif is no one dies during foreclsure. Health care is unique.

I guess tha answer is we all get nailed when eomonic elements this big fail so catestrophically. Better to help these fools out than more TARP IMO, but clearly the lessor of 2 evils. Barely. Might help the values in your hood.

[jb]

Again, I keep asking. If the gub mint is so inefficient and inept, why is the private sector scared to compete?

1. The gubmint is going to drop a trillion dollars in to this industry. Wouldn't the insurance companies be stupid for not trying to get their hands all over it?

2. After someone tells me the last government program that came in under budget tell me the last time a government program didnt grow in size. We have seen this play out before, start giving handouts (and by handouts I mean helping people can help themselves, not the people who actually need it) and everyone starts lining up. They figure if everyone else is getting it why dont they. How many small businesses are going to be reassessing their provided health care and consider dropping it? As of right now the Baucus bill would fine them for $400 per employee for doing so, chances are these companies are paying thousands for health care. Why are small businesses going to want to offer health care and subsidize it, when they can get the government to. What happens when 20 million more people than expected show up at the line waiting to get their subsidized health care? This brings me back to your original question, you don't think they see the strong possibility that the private insurance customer base drops?

You know for me, this all just comes down to the fact that I am tired of giving people things they don't deserve, and don't interpret that wrong, I am sick of having to have to say that by the way. People need health care and they cant afford it, people have pre-existing conditions and need to be covered, yeah, I understand this I am not an idiot. The point is, I live on a budget, I take care of myself, I dont have 2 new cars, I dont own a house I cant afford, I dont have an iphone or a data plan on my cell phone. We just helped how many people stay in their homes that they couldn't afford and now we are going to be expected to foot 3K on a family ONLY earning 75K because they have 2 kids. Well forgive me for being an ass, but dont have children if you cant afford to take care of them. (which takes me to a whole new point of why people who choose to have children get all these extra benefits) We bail out companies for making bad decisions, we bail out homeowners for making bad decisions and now we are supposed to take care of this family of 4 because they dont want to budget in health insurance and give them 3K? I am tired of it.

My wife's sister is 21, didnt want to go to college, didnt want to go to a trade school, works as a hostess maybe 30 hours a week, was offered to become a waitress and earn more money and didnt want to, gets her nails done weekly, goes tanning, has the new blackberry, buys her boyfriend extravagant gifts. The government is going to look at her and see 12K a year in income (if that). She is going to be one of the people who cant "afford" it and probably have the whole plan covered for her. I am sick of that, I have countless other people I know in the same situation, hell I went to high school with 30 of them. Do you want to pay for that?

U R not an ass.

You are responsible.

Again, my focus is on bringing it under control cost-wise for you and I. Unfortunately the irresponsible still get and receive health care becasue we are a humane western nation. So that is a HUGE piece to solving the cost containment puzzle. Just becasue it irriates the shit out of us doesn't remove the roadblock to a cost containment solution. You have to deal with it.

So what is the best way to stop those bozos from not contributing so you and I carry them?

But again dude, why the vitriol on 100% of the gubmint just becasue bubble heads piss you off?

I ask again, were your student loans Felp or DL ?

Didn't the state help your family out when your wife went through aa rough time?

Do you rent or just pay on a home in your means? cause if it is the latter, do you enjoy your mortgage tax break.

For me this is all a "baby and bath water" evaluation when I read the whack jobs. Shit, they all look like medicare and social security recipients caterwalling to me.

I have my issues with the deadbeats and the stupid prioritizers. I have my issues with being hammered on taxes for a bunch of shit I see an unecessary, like abstinance programs, drug intradiction and trumped up foreign wars.

But that doesn't mean I didn enjoy the feeling of driving on glass instead of moon craters last night on the new roads in Boardman, Ohio. And I know where that money came from.

Let's just tell it like it is.

There is a signifcant group of white people sturggling ecomoinically with the death of the manufacturing middle class so bigotted who think all Blacks freeload and live off the gubmint.

Obama gets elected.

They are convinced that becasue he is Black he will give everything to Black people an dthey'll get hosed even worse.

That's what most of this hysteria is all about.

They feel like they are getting screwed but theu don't know who is screwing them and feel powerless, so you get the hysteria that is pretty much mindless. They don't want to deal with health care policy complexities or the horror that is our bought and sold gubmint so they listen to Palin talk about moving "In God We TRust" to the edge of a coin in a new design being a plot o make surethe metal wears down and it falls off.

Now the actual issues? Whole other matter.

[FUDU]

That's what most of this hysteria is all about.

I disagree with most, some, yes of course, most, nah.

Most of this is about the people that show up for work everyday, make their car payments and house payments on time, send their kids to school and do things the way they were suggested is the best way to them from a much more simple and wiser generation (in many regards). So they do all that and in the end they end up no better off and having to carry the load for the have nots whom many of which can have if we didn't coddle them.

People peeking into their lives at every corner and then being asked to give up more and more of their income while getting less and less time to enjoy with their families.

The doers have every right to want to quit on everybody else and the system at hand.

[Ziner]

2. After someone tells me the last government program that came in under budget tell me the last time a government program didnt grow in size.

Can we just drop this stupid partisan red herring bullshit and disucss the issues free from wearing the jerseys?

Give me a break, once this thing starts it is NEVER getting smaller. It will only grow, get more expensive and absorb more people who we will be footing the bill for, like I explained with the small businesses. It will continue to increase the deficit and debt that the jackass "fiscal" republicans racked up or continue to tax the hell out of people. A $400 dollar penalty is going to prevent people from dropping health care? Especially when this bill is going to be paid for through a tax increase on the high income earners. The program is going to balloon and be as big or bigger drain as the ridiculousness of social security. If you told them back then that it would become an essentially free pension for people for 20-30 years they would have laughed in your face.

Yeah JB, I got student loans, the same ones available to everyone out there, and even more so to the people who are the poorest. I used them to get myself self-supporting not to continue to suck off the gubmint teet. And yeah my wife filed for unemployment when she was laid off, we have gone over this time and again. In theory should we have, I suppose not, but if you are getting bent over every 2 weeks on your paycheck and you get a chance to get it back you do it. Which is the mindset that makes this whole health care bill even worse. If people are paying for it, they are going to want a piece, that is why it is going to keep growing.

I rent, no kids, student loans are the only write-off I get. Thats right, I get fucked while people who buy homes they cant afford and people who have kids they cant afford get tax break after tax break.

My views have nothing to do with the middle class, whites or blacks. They are taking care of yourself and not expecting others to do it. People need help, I get that. Welfare has its place, medicare has its place, social security has its place, but once again all gubmint programs with good intentions that are taken advantage of, wasteful and morphed in to something unlike why they were started. Its frustrating. Fuck the Palin crowd and the bible thumpers and the teabaggers, just because someone disagrees with Barry or democrats they are racists and dont have a point. Most of them are just fucking tired of taking care of others when they are capable of taking care of themselves. Yeah I know we pay for it in the end, but you start a program like this and we are going to paying more in the long run. Help all the kids and the adults who actually need it. For the lazy, tough shit, figure it out.

Dude, I am 27, been paying in to social security for years already, it aint going to be there when it comes time, all the while I need to be socking money away in a 401K and an IRA because I will need to be self supporting. I pay a portion of my health care and also in to medicare and medicaid neither of which I will likely ever use, I pay will be paying $1000 a month in student loans just so I could earn the money to pay for my health care, 401K all the other taxes, Social security, housing bailouts, corporate bailouts, and a $8000 in a new homeowners tax credit I cant take advantage of. Then to top it off I get to bust out turbo tax every march to plug in my info and find a ridiculous tax rate because I get no write offs because I am paying so much on this other stuff I cant comfortably purchase a home or have children. This is fucked up. Why do we want to make it worse? When is enough enough?

Either I am just simply too bitter at the system or hit my tipping point too early, not sure which.

[jb]

That's what most of this hysteria is all about.

I disagree with most, some, yes of course, most, nah.

Most of this is about the people that show up for work everyday, make their car payments and house payments on time, send their kids to school and do things the way they were suggested is the best way to them from a much more simple and wiser generation (in many regards). So they do all that and in the end they end up no better off and having to carry the load for the have nots whom many of which can have if we didn't coddle them.

People peeking into their lives at every corner and then being asked to give up more and more of their income while getting less and less time to enjoy with their families.

The doers have every right to want to quit on everybody else and the system at hand.

Look, the so called gubmint system bilkers lead shitty lives from a quality of life perspective. You nor I would trade places with them in a heartbeat. No credit, no home, living hand to mouth.

And it is a myth that the so called self sufficnet aren't helped in any way. How many moe examples do you want me to cite that the gubmint still has a productive role to provide for the general welfare and isn't an evil monolith?

The lives of the so-called rules payers are getting tougher and more squeezed. Onthat I agree 100%. But it isn't a sole result of the gubmint being active and creating neer-do-wells. In fact, after 1997's welfare end there's probably less opportunity to leach than since the mid 60's.

Corporate interests run rampant screwing you and I at every turn, but instead we all pile on congress & Obama like they don't exist.

[jb]

2. After someone tells me the last government program that came in under budget tell me the last time a government program didnt grow in size.

Can we just drop this stupid partisan red herring bullshit and disucss the issues free from wearing the jerseys?

Give me a break, once this thing starts it is NEVER getting smaller. It will only grow, get more expensive and absorb more people who we will be footing the bill for, like I explained with the small businesses. It will continue to increase the deficit and debt that the jackass "fiscal" republicans racked up or continue to tax the hell out of people. A $400 dollar penalty is going to prevent people from dropping health care? Especially when this bill is going to be paid for through a tax increase on the high income earners. The program is going to balloon and be as big or bigger drain as the ridiculousness of social security. If you told them back then that it would become an essentially free pension for people for 20-30 years they would have laughed in your face.

Yeah JB, I got student loans, the same ones available to everyone out there, and even more so to the people who are the poorest. I used them to get myself self-supporting not to continue to suck off the gubmint teet. And yeah my wife filed for unemployment when she was laid off, we have gone over this time and again. In theory should we have, I suppose not, but if you are getting bent over every 2 weeks on your paycheck and you get a chance to get it back you do it. Which is the mindset that makes this whole health care bill even worse. If people are paying for it, they are going to want a piece, that is why it is going to keep growing.

I rent, no kids, student loans are the only write-off I get. Thats right, I get fucked while people who buy homes they cant afford and people who have kids they cant afford get tax break after tax break.

My views have nothing to do with the middle class, whites or blacks. They are taking care of yourself and not expecting others to do it. People need help, I get that. Welfare has its place, medicare has its place, social security has its place, but once again all gubmint programs with good intentions that are taken advantage of, wasteful and morphed in to something unlike why they were started. Its frustrating. Fuck the Palin crowd and the bible thumpers and the teabaggers, just because someone disagrees with Barry or democrats they are racists and dont have a point. Most of them are just fucking tired of taking care of others when they are capable of taking care of themselves. Yeah I know we pay for it in the end, but you start a program like this and we are going to paying more in the long run. Help all the kids and the adults who actually need it. For the lazy, tough shit, figure it out.

Dude, I am 27, been paying in to social security for years already, it aint going to be there when it comes time, all the while I need to be socking money away in a 401K and an IRA because I will need to be self supporting. I pay a portion of my health care and also in to medicare and medicaid neither of which I will likely ever use, I pay will be paying $1000 a month in student loans just so I could earn the money to pay for my health care, 401K all the other taxes, Social security, housing bailouts, corporate bailouts, and a $8000 in a new homeowners tax credit I cant take advantage of. Then to top it off I get to bust out turbo tax every march to plug in my info and find a ridiculous tax rate because I get no write offs because I am paying so much on this other stuff I cant comfortably purchase a home or have children. This is fucked up. Why do we want to make it worse? When is enough enough?

Either I am just simply too bitter at the system or hit my tipping point too early, not sure which.

I'm with you on almost all your rant as you state it now, Z.

I really am.

All societal problems are bigger than the gubmint as the root of all evil, and for as f'd up as it is, the gubmint has done some good, even in your life. And the GOP 's interests don't give a fuck about you anymore than the Dems.

BTW - You are probably a great candidate for a FTHB FHA with a low down payment. You should PM Dick for some 411.

I'm out.

[Ziner]

All societal problems are bigger than the gubmint as the root of all evil, and for as f'd up as it is, the gubmint has done some good, even in your life. And the GOP 's interests don't give a fuck about you anymore than the Dems.

I'm out.

I think you are misinterpreting part of this. It is as much at society as it is at the government. And it isnt democrats doing all the dumb shit. I said it last election, I am voting out the incumbent regardless of party.... unfortunately my stance takes on less importance to you as my current president, governor, senators and representative are all dems, but I am sure I will find a republican county comissioner to vote out or something.

Society is fucked up, the government prepetuates it, both parties are crooked and dont care, that is what pisses me off.

[aoxo1]

That's what most of this hysteria is all about.

I disagree with most, some, yes of course, most, nah.

Most of this is about the people that show up for work everyday, make their car payments and house payments on time, send their kids to school and do things the way they were suggested is the best way to them from a much more simple and wiser generation (in many regards). So they do all that and in the end they end up no better off and having to carry the load for the have nots whom many of which can have if we didn't coddle them.

People peeking into their lives at every corner and then being asked to give up more and more of their income while getting less and less time to enjoy with their families.

The doers have every right to want to quit on everybody else and the system at hand.

I don't want to turn this into a thread about inequality, but if you want to complain about the middle class not being able to get ahead in this country, you are looking in the wrong direction.

This isn't how it has to be.

Nearly all the gains over the last 30 years have been sucked up by the very top. This chart isn't even as dramatic as it might look.

So they are getting bigger raises, percentage wise, every year. How about taxes? Well, the top marginal rate is extremely low by historic standards.

But ok, the rich pay more. But what is the effective tax rate by income group?

Nice to know the people at the very top pay approximately the same effective rate as the middle.


And just a little charty goodness more relevant to the thread: Percent of GDP spending on health care

[jb]

That's what most of this hysteria is all about.

I disagree with most, some, yes of course, most, nah.

Most of this is about the people that show up for work everyday, make their car payments and house payments on time, send their kids to school and do things the way they were suggested is the best way to them from a much more simple and wiser generation (in many regards). So they do all that and in the end they end up no better off and having to carry the load for the have nots whom many of which can have if we didn't coddle them.

People peeking into their lives at every corner and then being asked to give up more and more of their income while getting less and less time to enjoy with their families.

The doers have every right to want to quit on everybody else and the system at hand.

I don't want to turn this into a thread about inequality, but if you want to complain about the middle class not being able to get ahead in this country, you are looking in the wrong direction.

This isn't how it has to be.

Nearly all the gains over the last 30 years have been sucked up by the very top. This chart isn't even as dramatic as it might look.

So they are getting bigger raises, percentage wise, every year. How about taxes? Well, the top marginal rate is extremely low by historic standards.

But ok, the rich pay more. But what is the effective tax rate by income group?

Nice to know the people at the very top pay approximately the same effective rate as the middle.


And just a little charty goodness more relevant to the thread: Percent of GDP spending on health care

Stop trying to make this about class warfare.

It's the poor's fault.

[Ziner]

And just a little charty goodness more relevant to the thread: Percent of GDP spending on health care

You love this argument, but does it actually show anything if the services aren't any good or you have a 6 month wait for surgery? Moreover wouldn't you expect it to be lower in a place like Canada where salaries of doctors and nurses aren't set by the free market? Or that the prices for services are set by the government not by what they should cost? Or the fact that they don't use the best equipment because the government wont pay for them? Or the fact that because Canada or other countries set price limits on medicine and device that the US gets gauged even more to pay for these products? Then again we could set our own price controls and destroy the R&D budget for those places.

[southernflyer]

Here is the reason I can not trust government health care.

I got laid off from a full time job 9/4/08, received insurance through 12/31/08, couldn't afford COBRA insurance afterwards at $400 a month. I could go through the trouble of filling out private insurance paperwork through Blue Cross, but decided to wait since I was hired-in process by then.

I got hired part time officially 1/19/09 with a six month wait for health benefits (7/1/09)

Part of the Stimulus Bill was a 65% reimbursement in the form of a tax credit to employers to defray COBRA cost. The administrators of the plan had 60 days to implement it. I received a letter late April from the administrator saying I was able to get COBRA for the 35%, I signed up online the same day. I'm thinking I can be in the program for a couple months until 7/1 rolls around and my employer insurance kicks in. Two weeks later I received the coupons for payment with the full 100% amount. I called the administrator and they sent out corrected 35% coupons, which I received in late May.

I send the June coupon with the 35% amount. A week later I get a health insurance card effective 3/1/09. I question it in my mind, but don't think too much on it. June 15th, I receive a letter that my insurace was cancelled as of 3/31 for non-payment. I call the administrator. The administrator says I paid for one month, March. I tell her I started in June, and I didn't even get the information until late April, and the correct coupons until late May. She gives me a govt health 800 number in Atlanta to call.

I call the govt. number, wait on hold an hour, then get a voicemail. I get called back the next day, and the nice government lady says as the bill was passed, I had to pay for insurance as of the next period after the bill went into effect, which was March, even though I the administrator took the whole 60 days to give me the notice. She asked if I was sick in March, which I was. She asked if I went to the doctor, and I said "no, I didn't have insurance", She then replied "Yes you did, the bill was passed in February". She obviously thought I would know I would get this letter in late April stating the discounted rate, and I would pay full price to the doctor a month and a half before the notice arrived. The June check I sent with the coupon actually paid for March, and March-June needed to be paid by June 8th, or my policy would cancel. So I was expected to pay 4 months of insurance for June. Thank God I wasn't sick in June and went to the doctor, only to receive the full bill later.

I talked to my freshman congresslady down here in Florida, who voted for the stimulus, and she said there was nothing she could do.

This was a simple program, which covered a small amount of individuals (those furloughed after 9/1/08). This was administrated through a 3rd party private company. Does anyone think the Federal goverment can really roll out a health care system that everyone in the nation is eligible for and be efficient?

Yes, I know the evils of private insurance. My family was enrolled in a HMO when my dad developed penile and lymphomatic cancer, and we had to wait for months to get processed to a specialist, and he most likely died because of it. Even though we were not successful due to the rarity of the disease, we would not be able to bring up a malpractice lawsuit against the govt. like we were able to the private insurance.

[jb]

Here is the reason I can not trust government health care.

I got laid off from a full time job 9/4/08, received insurance through 12/31/08, couldn't afford COBRA insurance afterwards at $400 a month. I could go through the trouble of filling out private insurance paperwork through Blue Cross, but decided to wait since I was hired-in process by then.

I got hired part time officially 1/19/09 with a six month wait for health benefits (7/1/09)

Part of the Stimulus Bill was a 65% reimbursement in the form of a tax credit to employers to defray COBRA cost. The administrators of the plan had 60 days to implement it. I received a letter late April from the administrator saying I was able to get COBRA for the 35%, I signed up online the same day. I'm thinking I can be in the program for a couple months until 7/1 rolls around and my employer insurance kicks in. Two weeks later I received the coupons for payment with the full 100% amount. I called the administrator and they sent out corrected 35% coupons, which I received in late May.

I send the June coupon with the 35% amount. A week later I get a health insurance card effective 3/1/09. I question it in my mind, but don't think too much on it. June 15th, I receive a letter that my insurace was cancelled as of 3/31 for non-payment. I call the administrator. The administrator says I paid for one month, March. I tell her I started in June, and I didn't even get the information until late April, and the correct coupons until late May. She gives me a govt health 800 number in Atlanta to call.

I call the govt. number, wait on hold an hour, then get a voicemail. I get called back the next day, and the nice government lady says as the bill was passed, I had to pay for insurance as of the next period after the bill went into effect, which was March, even though I the administrator took the whole 60 days to give me the notice. She asked if I was sick in March, which I was. She asked if I went to the doctor, and I said "no, I didn't have insurance", She then replied "Yes you did, the bill was passed in February". She obviously thought I would know I would get this letter in late April stating the discounted rate, and I would pay full price to the doctor a month and a half before the notice arrived. The June check I sent with the coupon actually paid for March, and March-June needed to be paid by June 8th, or my policy would cancel. So I was expected to pay 4 months of insurance for June. Thank God I wasn't sick in June and went to the doctor, only to receive the full bill later.

I talked to my freshman congresslady down here in Florida, who voted for the stimulus, and she said there was nothing she could do.

This was a simple program, which covered a small amount of individuals (those furloughed after 9/1/08). This was administrated through a 3rd party private company. Does anyone think the Federal goverment can really roll out a health care system that everyone in the nation is eligible for and be efficient?

Yes, I know the evils of private insurance. My family was enrolled in a HMO when my dad developed penile and lymphomatic cancer, and we had to wait for months to get processed to a specialist, and he most likely died because of it. Even though we were not successful due to the rarity of the disease, we would not be able to bring up a malpractice lawsuit against the govt. like we were able to the private insurance.

So let me cut to the chase.

The gubmint gave you the runaround, but the privates killed your father for greed. Privates still win.

Horrible what happened to your father. I'm really sorry.