Michael Moore

[Triple-S]

I've began to notice a bit of advertising for this guys film where he bashes capitalism and says something along the line of how it's "Failed" and such.

I also find this really amusing, as he's practicing EXACTLY WHAT HE PREACHES AGAINST, by charging people money to go see this crap in theaters and on DVD, and then proceeds to dine with the Hollywood elite and then live in a nice house.

If he is so against capitalism, why not live amongst the nation's poor to prove a point or donate the movies proceeds to charity rather than his own pocket or make the movie free?

http://www.mooreexposed.com/

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Never been a fan of Moore, However i've seen most of his movies. Bowling for Columbine was stupid because I like guns, Farenheit 9/11 was stupid because the Goverment could never carry out a plot like 9/11 N-E-V-E-R. I have't seen Sicko. His best work was Roger and Me. I might see his new movie once it comes out on DVD and I can rip it from the net for free.

[hermanfontenot]

Michael Moore knows that in the socialist society he espouses, he would be a member of the elite. Which means he would not have to live under the rules of such a society. He would have access to the best cars, the best houses, the best stores and restaurants, the best neighborhoods- and of course, the best health care- while everyone else is ground under the boot of his utopia.

See, that's why you never see a "worker" or any of "the people" speak out in favor of socialism. Just people like Michael Moore- actors, filmmakers, journalists, college faculty members and the like. Because they know they'd be exempt from the price demanded of socialism- the rationing, the shortages, the shit wages for shit jobs, the general oppression that goes hand-in-glove with such a society. They're part of the elite, after all.

[jfiling]

I thought Fahrenheit 9/11 was a well-made movie with some interesting points that was doomed to only convince the already-converted. No interest in Capitalism, which is a joke on its face.

[Erie Warrior]

Michael More isn't against capitalism, nor does he say so in the new movie. What he does point out is how Wall Street has gambled recklessly with the money of millions of hard working Americans, only to lose it all. He points out the problem with making money off of money, and not the exchange of good or services or hard work. It is also supposed to have a comedic element as well, in one scene he tries to make a citizen's arrest of the CEO of AIG, and wraps the building in crime scene tape.

Funny how the huge proprietors of capitalism are the first to go looking for government hands outs when they fail. Isn't that socialism at its finest?

I like his movies because they make you think. I don't always agree with him, but it's an opinion with good research to back it up. If you want to call bullshit on any of the facts in his movies, there is 10 grand in it for you.

[leadpipe]

Michael More isn't against capitalism, nor does he say so in the new movie. What he does point out is how Wall Street has gambled recklessly with the money of millions of hard working Americans, only to lose it all. He points out the problem with making money off of money, and not the exchange of good or services or hard work. It is also supposed to have a comedic element as well, in one scene he tries to make a citizen's arrest of the CEO of AIG, and wraps the building in crime scene tape.

Funny how the huge proprietors of capitalism are the first to go looking for government hands outs when they fail. Isn't that socialism at its finest?

I like his movies because they make you think. I don't always agree with him, but it's an opinion with good research to back it up. If you want to call bullshit on any of the facts in his movies, there is 10 grand in it for you.

This is spot on. I don't agree with all of what he's for either, but he's worth more than a knee jerk political response.

As Erie says, he puts his money where his mouth is, which makes him a stand up guy, which in turn makes him pretty rare nowadays.

And he's spot on in this movie in regards to people not having to gamble with their futures and retirement. Pensions vs. 401k's.... and a million other things high finance has done to us.

[e0y2e3]

FTR: I was coming in here to kick this terrible thread in the face but Lead and Erie have hit on a lot of the bigger points.

Do I necessarily think Moore has the intellectual honesty to pain a clear picture of exactly what happened? No..

Do I think I probably know more details about what happened than Moore? Sure.

Both of those things say a lot about the movie, no doubt, but say nothing about his thoughts on Capitalism.

One of the two or three best reads from the entire mess....

http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom/?print=true

[FUDU]

Michael Moore is simply a bad liar.

[Ziner]

Fellas, might want to do a bit more research before you broadly state Moore isnt against Capitalism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02121.html

Arlington, VA: What would you propose in place of capitalism? Maybe it's our political system that needs serious reform, i.e., legalized bribes called "Leadership PACs", gerrymandering, etc. Cleaning up our perverted political system should be the first step in reforming our country.

Michael Moore: I agree but I don't think you can reform capitalism at tis point because it's become so bastardized to the point where it's only purpose is to protect the wealthy and legalize our greed. We need to come up with a 21st century idea. Structuring a legal system that has two major underpinnings: democratic values and an ethical code.

_______________________

Philadelphia: Considering the sizable revenue you've generated from your films, isn't an attack on capitalism and free markets a bit hypocritical? If capitalism is a rigged game for the big Wall Street players, you've certainly played the game well, haven't you?

Michael Moore: I think that the success of my films has nothing to do with capitalism. Capitalism is a system of exploitation, of using working people, not paying them properly, no guaranteeing them health benefits, and now it's turned into a system where it's just about making money off money as opposed to making money by making things.

That doesnt sound like someone who is for capitalism....

I could really care less what Moore actually thinks, but to come in and say he doesnt hate capitalism is just factually wrong. The only part of Capitalism that Moore likes is that he has become a multi-millionaire from the system.

Now, on to my real thoughts, which I am sure will be completely ignored because of what I have already said. Of all the Moore films, and as you can imagine I am not a huge fan, I am actually some what interested in this one. I work in this banking sector and have seen alot of this stuff first hand. I dont like TARP, I think it is a crock and I think Wall Street and our politicians screwed us. That said, unlike Moore, I put equal blame on the homeowners as well. He is trying to portray the banks as these big bad banks intentionally screwing homeowners, which I am sure in some cases this did happen. However none of this flies with out homeowners signing on that dotted line, ultimately it is the homeowners fault if they dont understand what they are signing. If you dont understand it get a lawyer, friend, 3rd party, someone to read it before you sign it.

I am not sure I will actually make an attempt to see this movie, but to me it is a really interesting topic. I also want to echo e0y2e3 on the Lewis article, great read and fairly easy to understand. Make a point to check it out

[Erie Warrior]

Moore has stated that capitalism as we practice it is not the same as capitalism in theory.

From Wiki: Capitalism typically refers to an economic and social system in which the means of production (also known as capital) are privately controlled; labor, goods and capital are traded in a market; profits are distributed to owners or invested in new technologies and industries; and wages are paid to labor.

What Moore is saying is that our economy is now based on making money off of money. No longer is it making money from labor or goods.

FWIW I am relaying this information from an interview he recently did, and all of these questions were addressed.

[hermanfontenot]

Michael More isn't against capitalism, nor does he say so in the new movie.

You're right Erie, he's a regularly Ludwig von Mises.

[skatingtripods]

He's a douche bag.

For a good representation of Michael Moore, watch Kevin Farley play him in An American Carol.

[Stu]

Moore has stated that capitalism as we practice it is not the same as capitalism in theory.

From Wiki: Capitalism typically refers to an economic and social system in which the means of production (also known as capital) are privately controlled; labor, goods and capital are traded in a market; profits are distributed to owners or invested in new technologies and industries; and wages are paid to labor.

Reread Moore's quote that Ziner posted. His quote rips capitalism. If anything, he should like the capitalism america has because we have a minimum wage, and many public options for health care and other social services.

True capitalism, according to your quote, would have only essential government services.

[Erie Warrior]

Just the messenger. I agree with some of his stuff. Figured I'd add his responses to these same questions.

On a personal note, you can't really tell me the current financial system is good, right? Whether you love him or hate him, he's right on many things.

[Commodore Perry]

Didn't see the movie, but heard a long interview with Moore.

This movie was only named Capitalism as a way to cause controversy. The movie necessarily anti-captialism, its anti what happened with wall street.

Wall street f'd this country hard, and then the government bailed them out. This is something EVERYONE is pissed at, liberal or conservative.

But Moore doesn't go after mainstream problems like this, normally, so he had to give the ultra-left marketing name of Capitalism: A love story.

I don't like Moore, or this new style of aggressive documentary. But I'm glad he's gone after the people who have financially devestated this country. Just a few thousand people caused this major recession we're in, and most of them are still very rich. Everyone is blaming Bush or Obama, meanwhile the guys that actually caused this financial melt down were literaly handed HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars. And no one cares.

Its a fact that people have largely forgotten about, and at least Moore is bringing it back to people's attention.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Michael Moore knows that in the socialist society he espouses, he would be a member of the elite. Which means he would not have to live under the rules of such a society. He would have access to the best cars, the best houses, the best stores and restaurants, the best neighborhoods- and of course, the best health care- while everyone else is ground under the boot of his utopia.

Right, because in our system the Elite don't have any of those advantages. The elite face the same justice we do, they never get to drive the best cars, own the nicest homes, or get to enjoy the best food. They also have to go through the same shit the common man does to see a fucking doctor. People get ground under the boot in our system every day.

See, that's why you never see a "worker" or any of "the people" speak out in favor of socialism.

Yeah everyday in the UK, France, Germany, and Canada there are gaggles of workers prostesters saying "Fuck free healthcare, lets get the American system!" We would be lucky to have what the Brits have. The NHS is truly a great healtcare system, no asshole HMOs telling you what's covered and what's not. If you're sick, you get help. Their politicians aren't whores for the Insurance industry. They don't have a whole party trying to keep hard working Brits in the pocket of scumbag Insurers who's main goal is profit over the wellbeing of the people paying them. In France, Canada, the UK, or Germany you don't have people losing their homes because of medical bills.

ecause they know they'd be exempt from the price demanded of socialism- the rationing, the shortages

Yeah because if there were shortages here the elite wouldn't be exempt.

the shit wages for shit jobs

Because working at McDonalds in the US is known for it's great pay.

the general oppression that goes hand-in-glove with such a society.

Yeah, those French are sooooo oppressed, with their 35 hour work week, mandatory 5 week vacations, free education and healthcare. Unlike America where you come out of college tens of thousands of dollars in debt, or the WORKING people in this country that still can't afford to go to the doctor.

When my friends and I were in France, my buddy Ryan slipped on wet stairs and fell on his back, he has no health insurance, so we went to the hospital where they gave him a free MRI. If this happened in Columbus and not Paris, he'd been fucked cause he never could've afforded it. Luckily it was just a nasty bruise, they gave him pain pills and muscle relaxers for free, despite him not being a French citizen. Not in the good 'ole USA, where sick people are assigned a worth by some asshole sitting behind a desk 300 miles away.

People here screech about the goverment getting between you and your doctor, without realizing you already have that in another form. Your insurer. I ain't saying these social democracy countries don't have problems, i'm just saying they take beter care of their people than we do here.

[Stu]

Wall street f'd this country hard, and then the government bailed them out. This is something EVERYONE is pissed at, liberal or conservative.

It wasn't just Wall Street they f'd this country. It was the government who loosened regulations and actually encouraged bad behavior. It was our government constantly spending way more than they brought in. It was the people who trusted Wall Street to make 15% each year without doing any actual research to see how that money was being made. It was people who thought it was ok to put 5% down on a house, and banks to approve that. It was the people of America who thought there was nothing wrong with making 40k a year, and having a 300k mortgage, 25k car loan, 100k in student loan debt, and 15k in credit card debt.

Everyone was greedy. Everyone wanted their piece. Blaming the elites on Wall Street will not solve the problem.

[Stu]

Right, because in our system the Elite don't have any of those advantages. The elite face the same justice we do, they never get to drive the best cars, own the nicest homes, or get to enjoy the best food. They also have to go through the same shit the common man does to see a fucking doctor. People get ground under the boot in our system every day.

In our system, anyone can succeed. Its easier for some than others, but anyone can do it.

Yeah everyday in the UK, France, Germany, and Canada there are gaggles of workers prostesters saying "Fuck free healthcare, lets get the American system!" We would be lucky to have what the Brits have.

No they dont protest, they just come here for procedures because they dont want to wait 6 months on a waiting list.

The NHS is truly a great healtcare system, no asshole HMOs telling you what's covered and what's not. If you're sick, you get help.

Unless of course they choose not to treat you because you are not valuable to society. Like that kid who needed a liver transplant but was denied and then died because he had drinking problems.

Their politicians aren't whores for the Insurance industry.

They are just whores for money, just like ours.

Because working at McDonalds in the US is known for it's great pay.

you get paid what the market says you are worth, but thanks to the minimum wage, i know a helluva lot of fast food workers that are overpaid.

Yeah, those French are sooooo oppressed, with their 35 hour work week, mandatory 5 week vacations, free education and healthcare. Unlike America where you come out of college tens of thousands of dollars in debt, or the WORKING people in this country that still can't afford to go to the doctor.

interesting that after years of doing this, the french have recently moved conservative. theyve lifted the 35 hour work week and other restrictions. they finally figured out that if you make it impossible for business to make a profit, the business will just to decide to leave. unfortunately, liberals in america have not realized that yet. they havent figured out that without business, you dont have jobs.

When my friends and I were in France, my buddy Ryan slipped on wet stairs and fell on his back, he has no health insurance, so we went to the hospital where they gave him a free MRI. If this happened in Columbus and not Paris, he'd been fucked cause he never could've afforded it. Luckily it was just a nasty bruise, they gave him pain pills and muscle relaxers for free, despite him not being a French citizen. Not in the good 'ole USA, where sick people are assigned a worth by some asshole sitting behind a desk 300 miles away.

if it happened in the US, he'd still receive care. he'd just have to pay the bill afterward.

People here screech about the goverment getting between you and your doctor, without realizing you already have that in another form. Your insurer. [/quote]

you can change your insurer. its slightly more difficult to change your government.

where do you think the money comes from to pay for all this great insurance in other countries?

[Orenthal]

On a personal note, you can't really tell me the current financial system is good, right? Whether you love him or hate him, he's right on many things.

Yes our current financial system is good. Perfect? Well that is the dream isn't it? What we have has provided the great many the best opportunity for success. Right on many things? I really dont't know, but I figure its more like a few, and not many...

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Sorry Stu. I don't give a shit what you think. I'll wait for Herm to respond.

[Ziner]

Sorry Stu. I don't give a shit what you think. I'll wait for Herm to respond.

Ok, now that is some funny shit

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Sorry Stu. I don't give a shit what you think. I'll wait for Herm to respond.

Ok, now that is some funny shit

Heh. Why pretend, right? I watched his crap in the gambling thread, I decided his opinion doesn't mean anything. I like arguing with Herm cause he's not an asshat. There are very few people who's opinions I totaly disregard. He's in elite company with bw and what's his name.

[Stu]

Sorry Stu. I don't give a shit what you think. I'll wait for Herm to respond.

i see you learned from Swerb how to have a discussion.

you must not have liked that Issue 3 thread because I was only 1 of 2 people to actually do any research on the topic. as seen by your post above, you clearly have no room for facts in your arguments.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

No, your "research" is garbage, just like your takes. And I loved the Issue 3 thread, because you got your ass handed to you by smarter people. I'm not doing the circular argument thing with you, because I really don't care what you think.

Have a nice day.

[Stu]

No, your "research" is garbage, just like your takes. And I loved the Issue 3 thread, because you got your ass handed to you by smarter people. I'm not doing the circular argument thing with you, because I really don't care what you think.

just because you disagree with the research, doesnt make it "garbage"

Have a nice day.

Thank you, I am. Good day at work today.

[jfiling]

Michael More isn't against capitalism, nor does he say so in the new movie.

You're right Erie, he's a regularly Ludwig von Mises.

I'd guess that's the first mention of one of the fathers of modern libertarianism on this site. It warmed my heart to see good old Ludwig mentioned here.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Stu, I apologize. I was rude to you and it was uncalled for. I was wrong and i'm sorry.

[skatingtripods]

Stu, I apologize. I was wrong and i'm sorry.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

No BS, I was a dick to do that. It's been a shitty day and I took it out him. It's not right and i'm man enough to admit it.

I do stand by my opinion on health care in the states.

[Stu]

doesnt smell like bullshit to me. its cool CDT

[Ziner]

No BS, I was a dick to do that. It's been a shitty day and I took it out him. It's not right and i'm man enough to admit it.

I do stand by my opinion on health care in the states.

Way to back down TIMMAH!

[hermanfontenot]

Right, because in our system the Elite don't have any of those advantages. The elite face the same justice we do, they never get to drive the best cars, own the nicest homes, or get to enjoy the best food. They also have to go through the same shit the common man does to see a fucking doctor. People get ground under the boot in our system every day.

Every society has elites, CDT. You know how you get to the elite in a country like Cuba or the Soviet Union? It isn't about what you produce. It's about who you know, who you inform on, having the right political attitudes. It's a pure parasitical, scum "elite." There are no Bill Gates's or Steve Jobs in those countries.

Yeah everyday in the UK, France, Germany, and Canada there are gaggles of workers prostesters saying "Fuck free healthcare, lets get the American system!" We would be lucky to have what the Brits have. The NHS is truly a great healtcare system, no asshole HMOs telling you what's covered and what's not. If you're sick, you get help. Their politicians aren't whores for the Insurance industry. They don't have a whole party trying to keep hard working Brits in the pocket of scumbag Insurers who's main goal is profit over the wellbeing of the people paying them. In France, Canada, the UK, or Germany you don't have people losing their homes because of medical bills.

Healthcare isn't "free" anywhere, CDT. Someone always pays. As a cancer survivor who received top-notch care without insurance, let's just say I have no complaints about the quality of care or access to care in this country. I'll also say this from experience- when you're sick and you're scared, you don't give a shit how much it costs. You just want to be made better. It isn't about cost to me, CDT. It's about quality. This isn't like shopping for a goddamn muffler. YMMV.

You really want to make healthcare cheaper while preserving the quality, I got two words for you: tort reform. Help doctors get out from under the insane amount of malpractice insurance they're forced to pay. You want to turn healthcare over to the government? Uh-uh. I don't think so. I've been to the BMV.

Yeah because if there were shortages here the elite wouldn't be exempt.

See above. I'd rather live with the kind of elites we have in this country than in places like Cuba. At least our elites aren't hypocrites, not like them. It revolts me that someone like Michael Moore who has 200 million in the bank would presume to wave his sausage finger in the face of ordinary Americans about greed and "social justice." Who does he think he is? You think that fat fuck would be waiting in line for "free" healthcare if it was socialized? You think the Castro brothers are enjoying the "benefits" of socialism along with the people of Cuba? Please.

At least the filthy rich capitalists in this country don't presume to lecture me. At least they don't presume to know what's good for me.

Because working at McDonalds in the US is known for it's great pay.

At least in our society you have a chance to move up. Not in a place like Cuba. You're born in your station, you stay in your station, you die in your station. It's the closest thing to serfdom we have in the modern world.

Yeah, those French are sooooo oppressed, with their 35 hour work week, mandatory 5 week vacations, free education and healthcare. Unlike America where you come out of college tens of thousands of dollars in debt, or the WORKING people in this country that still can't afford to go to the doctor.

When my friends and I were in France, my buddy Ryan slipped on wet stairs and fell on his back, he has no health insurance, so we went to the hospital where they gave him a free MRI. If this happened in Columbus and not Paris, he'd been fucked cause he never could've afforded it. Luckily it was just a nasty bruise, they gave him pain pills and muscle relaxers for free, despite him not being a French citizen. Not in the good 'ole USA, where sick people are assigned a worth by some asshole sitting behind a desk 300 miles away.

People here screech about the goverment getting between you and your doctor, without realizing you already have that in another form. Your insurer. I ain't saying these social democracy countries don't have problems, i'm just saying they take beter care of their people than we do here

Well, how do you feel about Cuba?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Every society has elites, CDT. You know how you get to the elite in a country like Cuba or the Soviet Union? It isn't about what you produce. It's about who you know, who you inform on, having the right political attitudes. It's a pure parasitical, scum "elite." There are no Bill Gates's or Steve Jobs in those countries.

I'm failry toasted so please forgive any spelling/grammatical errors.

There is a clear difference between what the USSR was and what Social Democracies in Europe are. There are no gulags in the UK. There are plenty of self made men in the UK, France, and Germany.

Healthcare isn't "free" anywhere, CDT. Someone always pays. As a cancer survivor who received top-notch care without insurance, let's just say I have no complaints about the quality of care or access to care in this country. I'll also say this from experience- when you're sick and you're scared, you don't give a shit how much it costs. You just want to be made better. It isn't about cost to me, CDT. It's about quality. This isn't like shopping for a goddamn muffler. YMMV.

You really want to make healthcare cheaper while preserving the quality, I got two words for you: tort reform. Help doctors get out from under the insane amount of malpractice insurance they're forced to pay. You want to turn healthcare over to the government? Uh-uh. I don't think so. I've been to the BMV.

Yeah I know it's not free, people skip out on their bills here, those who do have insurance get stuck with the tab. I like the UK's NHS, those who have the means pay higher taxes. Like they should IMO. If I won the lottery i'd have no problem paying hihger taxes because I could afford it. Now that's just me, other's might not give a shit about their fellow Americans, but I do. And I anit saying that come off better than anyone else, it's just how I feel. For working class people in England it evens out, you pay a higher tax but don't have to worry about how you're going to pay for a medical care if you need it. You cut off your foot, they put it back on and with no input form the peanut gallery known as HMOs.

Implying that the care received under goverment run healthcare would be of less quality than what is availible here. All the Western nations that have Socialized medicine, have a longer life expectency than here in the US. And yeah I know America leads the world in fat fucks, but that's part of it. We don't practice preventative care here.

And i'm all for Tort reform. Totaly.

And BTW, what Nazi BMVs do you got to? I've never had a bad experience there. Most i've ever waited was about 30 minutes and the people i've encountered were all nice. (Maybe it's because the one I go to is operated by the Kiwanis?)

See above. I'd rather live with the kind of elites we have in this country than in places like Cuba. At least our elites aren't hypocrites, not like them. It revolts me that someone like Michael Moore who has 200 million in the bank would presume to wave his sausage finger in the face of ordinary Americans about greed and "social justice." Who does he think he is? You think that fat fuck would be waiting in line for "free" healthcare if it was socialized? You think the Castro brothers are enjoying the "benefits" of socialism along with the people of Cuba? Please.

At least the filthy rich capitalists in this country don't presume to lecture me. At least they don't presume to know what's good for me.

Cuba isn't Europe, Cuba is a repressive society that locks up and kills people who disagree with the regime. That doesn't happen in modern Spain, Germany, France, or The UK. What Moore thinks is really no concern of mine, i'm not a fan of his.

And what do you mean filthy rich capitalist don't lecture you? Have you ever heard a politiican in this country speak to the people? It's on big lecture on how they will make your life better. Which is a lie, and pegs them liars in the process, which is no big shock. They lecture you on what's good for you evrytime they open their pieholes.

At least in our society you have a chance to move up. Not in a place like Cuba. You're born in your station, you stay in your station, you die in your station. It's the closest thing to serfdom we have in the modern world.

I don't want to be Cuba, never onec said I did. I'm not talking about what they have. I'm talking about Western Democratic countries.

At least in our society you have a chance to move up. Not in a place like Cuba. You're born in your station, you stay in your station, you die in your station. It's the closest thing to serfdom we have in the modern world.

Right because a dude working in a lumber yard in Germany has to overcome way more things than a guy here in order to move up. You're comapring apples to cannon balls.

Well, how do you feel about Cuba?

I feel it would a bad idea to get you plane tickets to Havana on your birthday.

I don't feel anythign about Cuba from experience, i've never been there. I know what the US goverment wants me to think, some of what they say is true, I think Castro is a pig and he went against everything he said while fighting Batista. I think the 40 year Time Out we've given Cuba hasn't done anything to hurt Castro, only the Cuban people who we're supposed to be on the side of.

What I want to see is the poor bastard busting his ass working shit jobs for no money and crap benifits to be able to see a doctor without having to lose all his income on overpriced medical bills. I'm tired of hearing about hard working Americans loosing their homes because they got fucked over by some shitheel insurance company. Some douche from a gaint company that employs 1,000 lobbyist, gets to deiced if you get the treatment you need. That's the exact same thing people on the right are so fearful of..... And it's happening now, in our current system.

This country just did the most socialist thing in it's history by bailing out these god awful Wallstreet criminal scumbag CEOs. The fucked up part about it is, had they gone under, those CEOs wouldn't suffer, it be the working men and women.

I've pretty much said all I can, it's what I believe, if people disagree, that's fine, I get it. I'll gladly read your responses, but I don't feel I can add anymore.

[Stu]

Yeah I know it's not free, people skip out on their bills here, those who do have insurance get stuck with the tab.

A lot of people make this assumption and it always bothers me. The vast majority of hospitals are tax exempt, not for profit entities. They have the privilege of not paying taxes because they provide charitable services to the community. One of those services is free health care for those who are unable to pay. The assumption that the insured cover the costs of the uninsured is not totally true. If everyone did have health care, then I do not see how hospitals could remain tax exempt, as their charitable giving would be cut off. They would thus have to pay taxes.

So if anything, its not the insured that pay for the uninsured, its the US, State, and Local governments that are subsidizing hospitals for the free care that they provide.

[TIMMAH]

Michael Moore is a douche. I should know, we can smell our own.

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Michael More isn't against capitalism, nor does he say so in the new movie. What he does point out is how Wall Street has gambled recklessly with the money of millions of hard working Americans, only to lose it all. He points out the problem with making money off of money, and not the exchange of good or services or hard work. It is also supposed to have a comedic element as well, in one scene he tries to make a citizen's arrest of the CEO of AIG, and wraps the building in crime scene tape.

Funny how the huge proprietors of capitalism are the first to go looking for government hands outs when they fail. Isn't that socialism at its finest?

I like his movies because they make you think. I don't always agree with him, but it's an opinion with good research to back it up. If you want to call bullshit on any of the facts in his movies, there is 10 grand in it for you.

The problem is that Wall Street was encouraged to do so by the government through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. They packaged to mortgage backed securities. They helped drive home prices up.

And in 2005 the Bush Administration tried to do something but was not aggressive enough. The GOP leadership combined with Dem leadership stopped it because they were getting PAID via massive campaign donations from the Fannie and Freddie execs and lobbyists.

So it's not capitalism or Wall Street "greed". It's government creating something too good to be true and using its abilities to manipulate markets.

If Fannie and Freddie were privatized and the Feds had no fingers in the housing market then this never would have happened. Their involvement helped to eliminate the perception of RISK and that's bad news because it means more people are going to make bets on that product thinking its completely safe.

But Moore is all about wanting more government control, so telling that story wouldn't help him. He's the king of selective story telling and is no better than Leni Riefenstahl. He's a propagandist who can't see beyond his own worldview just like anyone on the extreme right or left. As such that view shades his perception of what happened with the economy.