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Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

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Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby swerb » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:34 am

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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby pup » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:52 am

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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby dem425 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:34 am

It's been said that the "Corporate Conglomerate" ruined Las Vegas. Discretionary comps were no longer as prevalent as they were in the days when individuals (read:mob) owned the casinos.......

That being said, I enthusiastically support Gilbert and his intentions. The primary reason is that EVERYTHING the state of Ohio touches, endorses or supports turns to shit in a matter of years. They are incredibly poor managers and they are only adept at promoting their own bullshit bureacracy. Why are their school systems in financial distress in Ohio when we have the LOTTERY?

Gilbert infused the downtown by creating a viable product: the Cavs. He knows how to make money. Memo to State of Ohio: Sit back, shut your hole and allow people that know how to run Casinos (Penn Gaming) to do so and you (actually the local cities) can collect your 33% for staying the hell out!!!!!

One of the downsides is that this maybe too little too late to cash in on the casino craze. Another downside is that three casinos has not helped Detroit. Here's hoping that Gilbert (Detroit alumni) has taken some insurance and learned from their mistakes.

BTW, when Harrah's took over Windsor and made it a Caesar's, it gave a shot in the arm to a fledgling casino.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:39 am

Gilbert has mentioned one great point about this a few times recently, today on Rizzo being one of them.

The support is there, way more people in Ohio want the casino as opposed to people not wanting it. Problem is when people are strongly opposed to something they make the stronger effort to go vote than their opposition does.

So if you want it do not assume it will come to fruition, go vote yes on it. As mentioned on that show today you can vote in Ohio for 30 some straight days instead of just on voting day, you just need to find out where they have an open voting booth on the other days leading up to the election.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby swerb » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:18 pm

dem425 wrote:It's been said that the "Corporate Conglomerate" ruined Las Vegas. Discretionary comps were no longer as prevalent as they were in the days when individuals (read:mob) owned the casinos.......

That being said, I enthusiastically support Gilbert and his intentions. The primary reason is that EVERYTHING the state of Ohio touches, endorses or supports turns to shit in a matter of years. They are incredibly poor managers and they are only adept at promoting their own bullshit bureacracy. Why are their school systems in financial distress in Ohio when we have the LOTTERY?

Gilbert infused the downtown by creating a viable product: the Cavs. He knows how to make money. Memo to State of Ohio: Sit back, shut your hole and allow people that know how to run Casinos (Penn Gaming) to do so and you (actually the local cities) can collect your 33% for staying the hell out!!!!!

One of the downsides is that this maybe too little too late to cash in on the casino craze. Another downside is that three casinos has not helped Detroit. Here's hoping that Gilbert (Detroit alumni) has taken some insurance and learned from their mistakes.

BTW, when Harrah's took over Windsor and made it a Caesar's, it gave a shot in the arm to a fledgling casino.

Agreed. Keep the state away from this. Let business people run it. Nearly everything Gilbert has touched, from Quicken, to Fathead, to the Cavs ... has turned to gold.

On the Detroit precedent, I will say, I think that will be used as a benefit to a potential Cleveland casino. Detroit did it all wrong. Three casinos, three different spots. Not tied to any dining or entertainment. And you get a block or two away from those casinos, it's not a good neighborhood.

For those reasons, Detroit has really failed in their efforts to attract women, also married couples and groups looking for a night out. Those are also the people that are going to, on average, play the games with a higher house take, like roulette and slots. And the people that are going to lose more money.

In hindsight, Detroit couldn't have done it more poorly. And they have Windsor right across the border pulling people away as well. Also, their economy is in worse shape than ours. Considerably worse shape.

This sounds like the first plan I've heard that makes sense. You have capable people in charge, and a stated desire to do it right ... lop it right in the middle of downtown, which is now well lit and very safe. To tie it to dining and entertainment. And make it so people like my wife will want to go, tied in with a Cavs game or some dinner and drinks.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:23 pm

And make it so people like my wife will want to go, tied in with a Cavs game or some dinner and drinks.


As if you don't get to do enough of what you want to do as it is.

You're not going to get away with any sob stories here Rich.

Agreed on your take on Detroit. Perfect model of how not to do casinos in a city that needs a jump start.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Cease » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:52 pm

I voted against the prior attempts to pass gaming, but will vote for this one.

I have always been anti-gaming in Ohio. It's a simple tax on stupid and/or poor people, much like the lottery or cig & alcohol taxes (I'm not judging, for I am one of these stupid people), and I don't think it morally justified. Rest assured, many Northeast Ohioans will gamble their lives away, and I don't want to see that.

I would be happy to coast as a non-gaming state, but now with every surronding state offering a casino expereince, my moral high ground has given way to pragmatism and I am ready for us to concede to gaming in the interest of economic development, entertainment, and employment opportunties.

As for this being too little, too late... it's never too late to fix a hole in your roof- or a hole in your state's economy. Yes, we could have moved on this 10 years ago, but the costs between then and now are sunk and therefore irrelevant to this decision.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:16 pm

I guess i'd like to see it pass. I voted against it last time because it had Lyle Berman's name attached to it. I still don't think it'll pass. It will get strong support in the 3 major cities, but it'll get crushed in the rural areas of the state. The Religious groups are going to pound on this in rural Ohio. Some of how they will distribute the tax revenue is confusing.

51% among all 88 counties in proportion to such counties’ respective populations. Half of each county’s distribution will go to its largest city if that city’s population is above 80,000.


- This makes no sense. So if a city of 50,000 people votes yes, and a city of 85,000 people vote no, and they're in the same county, The bulk of it goes to the city that voted no? Great idea!

34% among all public school districts


- 34%? Really? Doesn't the public school system make a killing off the Lottery? They're still run like shit. That's part of the problem, people think if you throw money at it they will be fixed.

5% among all host cities


-This is a fixed result since, only 4 cities will be "allowed" to have casinos.

3% to the Ohio casino control commission


-So....... The people who are supposed to regulate the casinos will profit from them? Maybe i'm missing something here, but that seems stupid.

3% to the Ohio state racing commission fund


-What? Who are these assholes and why do they get 3%?

2% to a state law enforcement training fund


- That's fine. This is the reward for the FOP supporting the Issue.

2% to a state problem gambling and addictions fund


-This is a nice touch. Very funny.

Maybe this Issue is a pile of shit? I guess I support it, but this is the best tax structure they can come up with?
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:11 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
34% among all public school districts


- 34%? Really? Doesn't the public school system make a killing off the Lottery? They're still run like shit. That's part of the problem, people think if you throw money at it they will be fixed.


Actually the entire lottery system for funding schools is a crock of shit. They just shuffle the money. My dad was on our local school board for about 20 years. He always said he would wish they would take the schools name off the whole deal because it becomes harder to pass levies when people just say "I'm voting no, they already get XXX billions from the lottery"

Schools get no additional money whether the lottery was there or not. They just use the lottery money to fund the schools and take the money that used to fund the schools and blow it on all sort of other dumb shit. It's pretty quite creative, they sucker everyone in to supporting the lottery to support schools and simply replace the funding for school with lottery proceeds. Of course they dont lower taxes all around, they take that money and use it for pet projects or to find ways to get themselves elected again.

I am sure this is the same type of scam. If they do this they should write legislation so that the level of school funding DIRECTLY from the state doesnt drop. Then perhaps with this extra money the school systems could use this money instead of raising property taxes. At least then some of the money would be coming from people outside the state
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:47 pm

51% among all 88 counties in proportion to such counties’ respective populations. Half of each county’s distribution will go to its largest city if that city’s population is above 80,000.


- This makes no sense. So if a city of 50,000 people votes yes, and a city of 85,000 people vote no, and they're in the same county, The bulk of it goes to the city that voted no? Great idea!


It's to try and sweeten the pot for the people in the biggest areas to vote for it. If they see that their city, town, whatever, will get a good bulk of the money, the hope is that more people will vote for it.

34% among all public school districts


- 34%? Really? Doesn't the public school system make a killing off the Lottery? They're still run like shit. That's part of the problem, people think if you throw money at it they will be fixed.


Charity man. Gotta make it look like they want to give back. I agree with you, (and think merit-based pay is the answer), but they've gotta throw shit like this in there.

3% to the Ohio casino control commission


-So....... The people who are supposed to regulate the casinos will profit from them? Maybe i'm missing something here, but that seems stupid.


Infrastructure, new face-recognition technology to catch cheaters, facility upgrades, salaries. It might fatten a few pockets, but it's mostly in place to have financial resources for the newest technology and catching fraudulent employees.

3% to the Ohio state racing commission fund


-What? Who are these assholes and why do they get 3%?


Trying to keep the horse tracks alive. The common belief is that casinos will bankrupt the horse racing industry around here. This is to give back to the little guy and let them stay operational.

2% to a state problem gambling and addictions fund


-This is a nice touch. Very funny.


I think this is mandated in an unwritten sense. You notice all the Mountaineer and Wheeling billboards have the gambling addiction hotline number on them.

Maybe this Issue is a pile of shit? I guess I support it, but this is the best tax structure they can come up with?


No proposal will be perfect. But we need casinos bad. This state's fucked if they don't start generating some kind of revenue.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby statmasta » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:12 pm

Cease wrote:I voted against the prior attempts to pass gaming, but will vote for this one.

I have always been anti-gaming in Ohio. It's a simple tax on stupid and/or poor people, much like the lottery or cig & alcohol taxes (I'm not judging, for I am one of these stupid people), and I don't think it morally justified. Rest assured, many Northeast Ohioans will gamble their lives away, and I don't want to see that.

I would be happy to coast as a non-gaming state, but now with every surronding state offering a casino expereince, my moral high ground has given way to pragmatism and I am ready for us to concede to gaming in the interest of economic development, entertainment, and employment opportunties.

As for this being too little, too late... it's never too late to fix a hole in your roof- or a hole in your state's economy. Yes, we could have moved on this 10 years ago, but the costs between then and now are sunk and therefore irrelevant to this decision.

Who are you to let your morals get in the way of economic development in the first place?

And if someone wants to waste their money at a casino, that's their problem. That's not something for you to worry about. It's none of your business.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:58 pm

Cease wrote:I voted against the prior attempts to pass gaming, but will vote for this one.

I have always been anti-gaming in Ohio. It's a simple tax on stupid and/or poor people, much like the lottery or cig & alcohol taxes (I'm not judging, for I am one of these stupid people), and I don't think it morally justified. Rest assured, many Northeast Ohioans will gamble their lives away, and I don't want to see that.

I would be happy to coast as a non-gaming state, but now with every surronding state offering a casino expereince, my moral high ground has given way to pragmatism and I am ready for us to concede to gaming in the interest of economic development, entertainment, and employment opportunties.

As for this being too little, too late... it's never too late to fix a hole in your roof- or a hole in your state's economy. Yes, we could have moved on this 10 years ago, but the costs between then and now are sunk and therefore irrelevant to this decision.

How is a tax on alcohol a tax on stupid/poor people when there are plenty of smart people that drink alcohol?
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Cease » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:26 am

statmasta wrote:
Cease wrote:I voted against the prior attempts to pass gaming, but will vote for this one.

I have always been anti-gaming in Ohio. It's a simple tax on stupid and/or poor people, much like the lottery or cig & alcohol taxes (I'm not judging, for I am one of these stupid people), and I don't think it morally justified. Rest assured, many Northeast Ohioans will gamble their lives away, and I don't want to see that.

I would be happy to coast as a non-gaming state, but now with every surronding state offering a casino expereince, my moral high ground has given way to pragmatism and I am ready for us to concede to gaming in the interest of economic development, entertainment, and employment opportunties.

As for this being too little, too late... it's never too late to fix a hole in your roof- or a hole in your state's economy. Yes, we could have moved on this 10 years ago, but the costs between then and now are sunk and therefore irrelevant to this decision.

Who are you to let your morals get in the way of economic development in the first place?

And if someone wants to waste their money at a casino, that's their problem. That's not something for you to worry about. It's none of your business.


I am a man of reason. There are a lot of things that would be "fantastic" economic drivers that are immoral and I would vote against: see prostituion, dog fighting, kiddie porn. Are these opportunities Ohio should jump in front of and legalize?

Now, whether you see gambling or prostitution or dog fighting as immoral is a whole other discussion. The fact is that morals do exist and we as a collective do base our laws on them.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby jfiling » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:41 am

Cease wrote:Now, whether you see gambling or prostitution or dog fighting as immoral is a whole other discussion. The fact is that morals do exist and we as a collective do base our laws on them.
One more thing, if it's on my ballot- it's my business.

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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Cease » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:50 am

FUDU wrote:How is a tax on alcohol a tax on stupid/poor people when there are plenty of smart people that drink alcohol?


The theory behind it is that if a poor person spends X on a fixed amount of alcohol weekly, increases in the cost of alcohol (via a "sin" tax) affect their ability to fund food, clothing and shelter more than that same tax affects a wealthy person. Assuming that they consume the same quanity and pay the same price.

This does not make the poor person stupid, that was harsh on my part. The stupid part is more directed at lottery, and should really be changed to "math-challenged."
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:17 am

Gilbert, who has made a fortune in the mortgage lending business, said his potential venture into the gambling industry is mostly about helping downtown Cleveland revitalize and become a catalyst for economic recovery in the Midwest. The key, he said, is to tie all the entertainment options together -- a casino near professional sports and surrounded by restaurants and bars.


he said something similar when he was interview on Wills and Snyder on WTAM Wednesday morning. Talking about how businesses need to move into Cleveland and the people will come. That was the ticket to revitalizing downtown.

Of course, he built his practice facility for the Cavs in Independence.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:23 am

My problem with issue 3 is simple. Its a monopoly for Gilbert and it prevents other companies from coming in. I mean, what would you rather have. 1 Casino in downtown Cleveland that can overcharge and have mediocre payouts and games, or 2 casinos that need to compete with each other for business, giving people incentives to choose one casino over the other.

I'm voting no, because Monopolies rarely help the consumer.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby swerb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:01 pm

Stu wrote:
Gilbert, who has made a fortune in the mortgage lending business, said his potential venture into the gambling industry is mostly about helping downtown Cleveland revitalize and become a catalyst for economic recovery in the Midwest. The key, he said, is to tie all the entertainment options together -- a casino near professional sports and surrounded by restaurants and bars.


he said something similar when he was interview on Wills and Snyder on WTAM Wednesday morning. Talking about how businesses need to move into Cleveland and the people will come. That was the ticket to revitalizing downtown.

Of course, he built his practice facility for the Cavs in Independence.

WTF does that have anything to do with the topic? Outside of property tax, that practice facility isn't generating any jobs or tax dollars. And Independence gave him a sweetheart deal on the taxes IIRC.

Gilbert brought a big Quicken mortgage center to Cleveland. He's trying to bring a casino and other entertainment venues to the city.

His interests are self serving, but at least he's trying to do something. Not sure what putting a practice facility in Independence has anything to do with anything.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:07 pm

you are right, its not like a lot of fans are hanging out at the practice facility. but still, if he is saying businesses should move downtown, then why not lead by example by having his facilities downtown?

and theres more than just property taxes, theres staff required to run the facility as well. its small, but its still something.




and my bigger issue on topic, the actual reason that im voting against this, is that its bullshit that he would have a monopoly on ohio casinos.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:14 pm

Stu wrote: then why not lead by example by having his facilities downtown?


Image

+

Image

=

Image

It isnt that hard to figure out why
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:16 pm

look im not an idiot. i know how to read a map and see that independence is almost halfway between cleveburg and bath.

im just saying, he's saying this bullshit in order to sell his casino idea. he doesnt care about revitalizing cleveland, he cares about making money. and thats fine. im perfectly ok with that. him making money is a result of success in cleveland. i just dont like that he's doing it via a monopoly.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:20 pm

Swerb wrote:Gilbert brought a big Quicken mortgage center to Cleveland. He's trying to bring a casino and other entertainment venues to the city.



And for what its worth, Quicken Loans is shady business. I wouldnt ever consider dealing with them for a mortgage.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:22 pm

Stu wrote:look im not an idiot. i know how to read a map and see that independence is almost halfway between cleveburg and bath.

im just saying, he's saying this bullshit in order to sell his casino idea. he doesnt care about revitalizing cleveland, he cares about making money. and thats fine. im perfectly ok with that. him making money is a result of success in cleveland. i just dont like that he's doing it via a monopoly.


It doesn't matter if Dan Gilbert gives a fuck about revitalizing Cleveland, the ballot language forces him to put money back in the county and the city. The revitalization will just be a trickle down effect from increased activity downtown.

It may be a monopoly, but there are multiple investors involved. Penn National Gaming for the most part, but other private investors who are expected to match so much money.

If you're going to spend this kind of money and put forth this kind of effort, it's excusable that it will create a monopoly.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby swerb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:23 pm

Stu wrote:and my bigger issue on topic, the actual reason that im voting against this, is that its bullshit that he would have a monopoly on ohio casinos.

If I'm starving, and someone offers me a hot dog, I'm not turning it down and waiting for a competing company to offer me an all beef footlong hot dog. The city and region is starving.

Also, regarding your monopoly issue, really ... it just comes down to the slots and the slot payout %'s, no? Table games are table games. If people are dumb enough to wager significant amounts of money those gimmickie blackjack games, craps tables without the ability to go 2-3x or more on odds, double green 0 roulette tables, keno, Let It Ride ... and other games with large noted house advantages .... just cause there's not a competing casino to keep em more honest, I don't feel bad for those people.

I am assuming that any casinos would have to publically report and disclose their slot payout percentages. If much lower than casinos in surrounding states, the local media would be all over it. Especially given how in the public eye the first casino(s) ever in the state of Ohio would be sure to be.

Yes, no question, when you have competing casinos, it forces those casinos to be more aggressive in luring players with loose slots, single deck blackjack, deals, etc.

But more than two in NE OH is prolly not realistic given the market. And what's two gonna do? You really think it would make that much of a difference? You think one competing casino is going to force the initial one to pay out 98% on slots, have single 0 roulette wheels, and the place loaded with blackjack and craps tables at the minimum house advantage?

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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:35 pm

Swerb wrote:
Stu wrote:But more than two in NE OH is prolly not realistic given the market. And what's two gonna do? You really think it would make that much of a difference? You think one competing casino is going to force the initial one to pay out 98% on slots, have single 0 roulette wheels, and the place loaded with blackjack and craps tables at the minimum house advantage?

NFW



when you go to a casino, you aren't just spending money on the gambling. its about the restaurants, the food, the drinks, the cocktail waitresses (hey-o), and all the entertainment that comes with it.

competition will breed improvements in all areas of the casino, not just the gaming. look at vegas. look at how many people go to the rio cuz they have the free show in the sky. look at the people that go to the flamingo cuz of their pool. how about the wynn just because of its overall classiness.

oh and as far as improving gaming is concerned, you'll not only see better payouts (the table games you mentioned), but you might also see a greater variety of games.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:36 pm

Swerb wrote:If I'm starving, and someone offers me a hot dog, I'm not turning it down and waiting for a competing company to offer me an all beef footlong hot dog. The city and region is starving.


How'd that work for Detroit?
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:39 pm

Skating Tripods wrote:It may be a monopoly, but there are multiple investors involved. Penn National Gaming for the most part, but other private investors who are expected to match so much money.


There were a whole lot of people who were invested into Microsoft as well.

Skating Tripods wrote:If you're going to spend this kind of money and put forth this kind of effort, it's excusable that it will create a monopoly.


Its excusable for them to WANT to create a monopoly. Its not excusable for them to legally demand a monopoly and for us to just give it to them.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby swerb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:45 pm

Stu wrote:
Swerb wrote:
Stu wrote:But more than two in NE OH is prolly not realistic given the market. And what's two gonna do? You really think it would make that much of a difference? You think one competing casino is going to force the initial one to pay out 98% on slots, have single 0 roulette wheels, and the place loaded with blackjack and craps tables at the minimum house advantage?

NFW



when you go to a casino, you aren't just spending money on the gambling. its about the restaurants, the food, the drinks, the cocktail waitresses (hey-o), and all the entertainment that comes with it.

competition will breed improvements in all areas of the casino, not just the gaming. look at vegas. look at how many people go to the rio cuz they have the free show in the sky. look at the people that go to the flamingo cuz of their pool. how about the wynn just because of its overall classiness.

oh and as far as improving gaming is concerned, you'll not only see better payouts (the table games you mentioned), but you might also see a greater variety of games.

Agreed.

And I repeat my questions. You think the region could support more than two full blown casinos? If not, you think two Cleveland casinos would make much of a difference in the areas you mentioned? I don't think it would make much of any. At least not enough of a difference to use the "no competition allowed" argument as your sole factor for being against the casino issue.

And using a Vegas comp is silly. There's tens and tens of mega-casinos all on the same street. Of course they need to compete. And even the least trafficked ones generate much more revenue than any here will.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:47 pm

and lets not forget the bullshit 50 million dollar licensing fee per casino.

this article sheds some light on how that is a ripoff for the state: http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindeal ... xml&coll=2

Issue 3 calls for a fee of $50 million per casino. A casino planned for Illinois will bring a fee of more than $400 million. State officials in Massachusetts may ask $500 million each for two casinos being discussed there. And in 2007, two Indiana racetracks coughed up a casino licensing fee of $250 million each.



for you guys that want gambling, why can't we just come up with a tax plan, come up with a flat rate licensing fee per casino, and legalize gaming to allow private industry to come in and build their casinos. it allows for competition and growth, it would generate more money, and would bring in more entertainment options overall.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby swerb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:48 pm

Stu wrote:
Swerb wrote:If I'm starving, and someone offers me a hot dog, I'm not turning it down and waiting for a competing company to offer me an all beef footlong hot dog. The city and region is starving.


How'd that work for Detroit?

Detroit did it all wrong, and no one knows that better that Gilbert, who is a native of that area. I would be against a casino proposal similar to Detroits. This one is different in many ways. Using Detroit as an example doesn't cut it for me.

Gilbert's proposal calls for one casino, right downtown, in a nice area, with a bevy of dining and entertainment right by it. It's the anti-Detroit proposal.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby swerb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:53 pm

Stu wrote:and lets not forget the bullshit 50 million dollar licensing fee per casino.

this article sheds some light on how that is a ripoff for the state: http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindeal ... xml&coll=2

Issue 3 calls for a fee of $50 million per casino. A casino planned for Illinois will bring a fee of more than $400 million. State officials in Massachusetts may ask $500 million each for two casinos being discussed there. And in 2007, two Indiana racetracks coughed up a casino licensing fee of $250 million each.



for you guys that want gambling, why can't we just come up with a tax plan, come up with a flat rate licensing fee per casino, and legalize gaming to allow private industry to come in and build their casinos. it allows for competition and growth, it would generate more money, and would bring in more entertainment options overall.

Uhhh ... because it would never pass. That's sorta important. No?

Also, the city of Cleveland does not need 5 or 6 casinos. They need one or two nice ones, done right. It would generate mass amounts of tax dollars, bring many more people downtown on weekend nights, and be a huge asset in luring conventions business.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:53 pm

Swerb wrote:Agreed.

And I repeat my questions. You think the region could support more than two full blown casinos?


If it can support 1, it can support 2.

Swerb wrote:If not, you think two Cleveland casinos would make much of a difference in the areas you mentioned? I don't think it would make much of any. At least not enough of a difference to use the "no competition allowed" argument as your sole factor for being against the casino issue.


Initially, it probably wont make any difference. but what about 10 years down the road when the novelty of having a casino has long worn off, and the casino needs to be updated. competition breeds improvements over time as well.

And using a Vegas comp is silly. There's tens and tens of mega-casinos all on the same street. Of course they need to compete. And even the least trafficked ones generate much more revenue than any here will.[/quote]

Vegas is an extreme example, but its still valid. I bring it up because I've been to Detroit, I've been to the Casinos in West Virginia, and they are all garbage. I'd rather have no casino at all than crap like that.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:56 pm

Swerb wrote:Also, the city of Cleveland does not need 5 or 6 casinos. They need one or two nice ones, done right. It would generate mass amounts of tax dollars, bring many more people downtown on weekend nights, and be a huge asset in luring conventions business.


first, you'll never allow it to see 2, its only gonna see 1 with this plan.

second, by having a huge licensing fee, in the hundreds of millions of dollars, you insure that only real players are going to come to town so they can get their return on their investment.

with a 4-500 million dollar licensing fee, you also aren't going to have 5-6 casinos come into town, unless theres enough growth to warrant it. and if theres the growth to warrant it, then whats the problem?
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby swerb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:04 pm

Stu wrote:
Swerb wrote:Also, the city of Cleveland does not need 5 or 6 casinos. They need one or two nice ones, done right. It would generate mass amounts of tax dollars, bring many more people downtown on weekend nights, and be a huge asset in luring conventions business.


first, you'll never allow it to see 2, its only gonna see 1 with this plan.

second, by having a huge licensing fee, in the hundreds of millions of dollars, you insure that only real players are going to come to town so they can get their return on their investment.

with a 4-500 million dollar licensing fee, you also aren't going to have 5-6 casinos come into town, unless theres enough growth to warrant it. and if theres the growth to warrant it, then whats the problem?

It's a moot point. We all know this is nothing the state politicians would pass. Obviously. The state has never even been close on passing a law that would legalize casino gambling in Ohio. They sure as shit aren't going to pass one that would open it up for any Tom, Dick, or Harry with cash to come in here and open a casino.

Which means you need people to do all the things necessary to force it on the ballot. As the voters have shown, just again recently with Berman's proposal (which I voted against) ... they aren't going to pass anything that isn't just about a perfectly crafted proposal.

Gilbert's may not be perfect. But it's the best we've seen. And good enough for my vote.

He's a smart guy. He learned from Detroit. He learned from the other proposals that have gone to the ballots and been defeated.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby docstank » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:05 pm

Is STU short for Jeff Jacobs?
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:08 pm

docstank wrote:Is STU short for Jeff Jacobs?


Jacobs is a douche too.



but here's something i'd agree with. let them both build their casinos.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:10 pm

Swerb wrote:It's a moot point. We all know this is nothing the state politicians would pass. Obviously. The state has never even been close on passing a law that would legalize casino gambling in Ohio. They sure as shit aren't going to pass one that would open it up for any Tom, Dick, or Harry with cash to come in here and open a casino.


Seriously. Just like we'd never see slot machines in ohio. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby docstank » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:13 pm

Call me f'n nuts but I think in 50 years people will talk about how Gilbert put Cleveland back on the map. I will vote for this plan in a second, all the bullshit you will be seeing on tv in the next 50 days will be from out of state interests, WTFU!! I have confidence Gilbert will not put his name on a piece of shit, he does not come across as the kind of guy who wants to be viewed as a slum lord. IMO
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:13 pm

Swerb wrote:
Stu wrote:
Swerb wrote:
Stu wrote:But more than two in NE OH is prolly not realistic given the market. And what's two gonna do? You really think it would make that much of a difference? You think one competing casino is going to force the initial one to pay out 98% on slots, have single 0 roulette wheels, and the place loaded with blackjack and craps tables at the minimum house advantage?

NFW



when you go to a casino, you aren't just spending money on the gambling. its about the restaurants, the food, the drinks, the cocktail waitresses (hey-o), and all the entertainment that comes with it.

competition will breed improvements in all areas of the casino, not just the gaming. look at vegas. look at how many people go to the rio cuz they have the free show in the sky. look at the people that go to the flamingo cuz of their pool. how about the wynn just because of its overall classiness.

oh and as far as improving gaming is concerned, you'll not only see better payouts (the table games you mentioned), but you might also see a greater variety of games.

Agreed.

And I repeat my questions. You think the region could support more than two full blown casinos? If not, you think two Cleveland casinos would make much of a difference in the areas you mentioned? I don't think it would make much of any. At least not enough of a difference to use the "no competition allowed" argument as your sole factor for being against the casino issue.

And using a Vegas comp is silly. There's tens and tens of mega-casinos all on the same street. Of course they need to compete. And even the least trafficked ones generate much more revenue than any here will.


A few points - in no particular order.

1. Multiple casinos isn't a realistic option.

2. The state AND the city have f'd up practically everything they've touched for years. It's the reason Chicago has million dollar real estate and entertainment on the lake and the reason we have guys fishing for sheephead. It's the reason the flats dissolved as it did - and about a million other things. Perhaps somebody that knows what the hell is going on be given a shot.

3. Of course he's looking at his own best interests, but unless Jesus H. Christ is somewhere in line, the next million proposals are going to be headed by someone with the same intentions.

4. Vegas is not a realistic comparison, however, take a look at Conneticut, with both Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun as close, competing casinos. You'd be very suprised in the "competition" As a matter of fact they work in unison in many ways. Two casinos here would be no different - the amentities you'd find at one would be different than the other in many ways. For example, if Casino A has a 4 star Italian restaraunt as their feature, you can bet Casino B is going to hve a 4 star steakhouse as theirs. The same would be done with entertainment and so forth. And, there payouts and comp rates are also very close.

5. Concerning slot percentages etc. This just in:

People aren't that smart.


In regards to gambling, people are twice as dumb. This is why you can go to Vegas and see a full blackjack table paying 6-5 on naturals next to an empty one paying 3-2. This is why you can see guys thrilled to find a good video poker table, and make 25 errors an hour with their play.

Point being, when dealing with advantage type players the region need not be too much of a concern. If the payouts blow, they ain't going to ANY casino in this area. There are others close enough.

So, the players your dealing with are the ones that play horrible slots on the strip, when they could go 10 minutes off strip and play several percentage points higher. Why don't they do this? One of two resons 1. They are unaware 2. They don't care.

I understand completely not wanting a monopoly, buy good holy Christ, the positives are much greater than the negative, and, I'm not to fond of this phrase because in many cases it's inaccurate, but in this case tuly

YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby swerb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:15 pm

Stu wrote:
Swerb wrote:It's a moot point. We all know this is nothing the state politicians would pass. Obviously. The state has never even been close on passing a law that would legalize casino gambling in Ohio. They sure as shit aren't going to pass one that would open it up for any Tom, Dick, or Harry with cash to come in here and open a casino.


Seriously. Just like we'd never see slot machines in ohio. ;-) ;) :wink:

Putting slot machines at the handful of horse racing venues in the state, and legalizing casino gambling statewide ... uhh, two slightly different issues.

Goes without saying, but maybe not.

Strickland didn't even have to take the slot thing through the Ohio house.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:16 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.


You lose future opportunity to allow other Casino's into town, especially if Gilbert's sucks.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby docstank » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:18 pm

I would agree with "let them both build their casinos" but the problem is Jacobs is an "idea" gilbert's is a reality. Jacobs has not plan to build a thing, he is just playing some misdirection in order to block Gilbert's very real possible threat to Jacobs out of state casino revenue which is 70% dependent on OHIOans.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:21 pm

Stu wrote:
Lead Pipe wrote:YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.


You lose future opportunity to allow other Casino's into town, especially if Gilbert's sucks.


This is what you aren't getting.

The next proposal is going to be exactly the same in regards to your monopoly worries.

I think this is crystal clear.

If that is understood, than you have nothing to lose.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:33 pm

Swerb wrote:
Stu wrote:
Swerb wrote:It's a moot point. We all know this is nothing the state politicians would pass. Obviously. The state has never even been close on passing a law that would legalize casino gambling in Ohio. They sure as shit aren't going to pass one that would open it up for any Tom, Dick, or Harry with cash to come in here and open a casino.


Seriously. Just like we'd never see slot machines in ohio. ;-) ;) :wink:

Putting slot machines at the handful of horse racing venues in the state, and legalizing casino gambling statewide ... uhh, two slightly different issues.

Goes without saying, but maybe not.

Strickland didn't even have to take the slot thing through the Ohio house.



They are similar in that they are both things that we would never expect out Ohio government to allow.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:34 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:
Stu wrote:
Lead Pipe wrote:YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.


You lose future opportunity to allow other Casino's into town, especially if Gilbert's sucks.


This is what you aren't getting.

The next proposal is going to be exactly the same in regards to your monopoly worries.

I think this is crystal clear.

If that is understood, than you have nothing to lose.


I'm aware of that as well. but pardon me if i am not willing to give up my free market beliefs just so i can get a "hot dog" as swerb put it earlier.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby swerb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:37 pm

Stu wrote:
Swerb wrote:
Stu wrote:
Swerb wrote:It's a moot point. We all know this is nothing the state politicians would pass. Obviously. The state has never even been close on passing a law that would legalize casino gambling in Ohio. They sure as shit aren't going to pass one that would open it up for any Tom, Dick, or Harry with cash to come in here and open a casino.


Seriously. Just like we'd never see slot machines in ohio. ;-) ;) :wink:

Putting slot machines at the handful of horse racing venues in the state, and legalizing casino gambling statewide ... uhh, two slightly different issues.

Goes without saying, but maybe not.

Strickland didn't even have to take the slot thing through the Ohio house.


They are similar in that they are both things that we would never expect out Ohio government to allow.

Actually, they're not similar at all. And Ohio government didn't "allow" the slots at the race tracks like they would have to "allow" the legalization of casino gambling statewide.

Other than that though, they're identical. In the same way that Tiger Woods and I are the same cause we both stand up to pee.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:38 pm

docstank wrote:I would agree with "let them both build their casinos" but the problem is Jacobs is an "idea" gilbert's is a reality. Jacobs has not plan to build a thing, he is just playing some misdirection in order to block Gilbert's very real possible threat to Jacobs out of state casino revenue which is 70% dependent on OHIOans.


so then why not allow gilbert to build, and then if jacobs wants his plan to become a reality, he can still build it?

leave the options open, thats all i am saying.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Stu » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:40 pm

Swerb wrote:
Stu wrote:They are similar in that they are both things that we would never expect out Ohio government to allow.

Actually, they're not similar at all.



oh so you 2 years ago you knew that it was a strong possibility that they would allow slot machines in the race tracks? even when the legislature and strickland were saying it would never happen? thats some awesome insight tig--i mean swerb.
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby swerb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:47 pm

Stu wrote:
Swerb wrote:They are similar in that they are both things that we would never expect out Ohio government to allow.

Actually, they're not similar at all.

Stu wrote:oh so you 2 years ago you knew that it was a strong possibility that they would allow slot machines in the race tracks? even when the legislature and strickland were saying it would never happen? thats some awesome insight tig--i mean swerb.

It doesn't matter who knew shit when. It's just a horrible analogy.

One is the decision of one man. The other would have to pass through several state legislative bodies with majority votes, and has a 0% chance of ever doing that, proven time and time again by said legislative bodies.

You're stuck in a bad take Stu. And you can't get out.

Somewhere deep down, there are arguments against Gilbert's proposal that may make some sense. I don't see the monopoly issue as a very relevant one. And if it is, you're not presenting the argument correctly. As the resident board miser, who uses over 50% of his posts to put down other peoples posts, you're going to catch shit for it.

Now press the eject button peacefully. Or get Johnny Cochran or F.U. Bailey to make your case for you. :lmfao:
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Re: Gilbert: 50 Days To Sell Ohioans On Casino Proposal

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:21 pm

BTW I keep hearing this crap about tax dollars and the Cavaliers practice facility...

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/taxsharingplan_060324.html

I am sure Gilbert being a strong proponent of urban renewal had something to do with this. Also why is the practice facility always brought up, but not the fact he moved all his Quicken loans jobs to Huron Avenue? Oh, wait Quicken Loans is shady...

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