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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:53 am

Dave Wannstedt is a bozo.
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Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:35 pm

What was that guy thinking about? How you throw the ball the twice down there when Navy couldn't stop me is crazy. Why you go for it at all on 4th down could be debated given, again, Navy couldn't stop me.

Going for it and throwing on 3rd and 4th down form inside the two was flat out stupid. McCoy carries 30 times for 165 yards and 3 scores and you go with a fade that was thrown OB anyway.

I guess that kind of stuff is why he's a mediocre coach in a mediocre program.

The moustache is still porn-star quality though.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:59 pm

Pitt often gets some pretty good recruits but ends up going nowhere. Wannstedt has a lot to do with that.

The school has some tradition and won a title 30 years ago, but has not gotten back up to that level in a long time. I recall some good Pitt teams in the 1980s.

That's another school that Gruden has been interested in coaching, so that may be something of interest in a few years.

I don't think Wannstedt has much more time. This is his fourth year and the program has not returned to national prominence as was hoped. They are unlikely to make a bowl game and could conceivably finish below Syracuse in the Big East.

Both those schools really need to look elsewhere for coaches. Greg Robinson is not a good fit for Syracuse. He doesn't tap into the local recruits as much as he should and his offense doesn't match the talent he's getting. This is his third season and the Orange may go in a different direction after it. I think that they need to.
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Unread postby FUDU » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:04 pm

Agreed.

I don't what happened to Pitt over the years, but they just cannot get back into the conversation of relative respect anymore.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:50 pm

Mr. MacPhisto wrote:Pitt often gets some pretty good recruits but ends up going nowhere. Wannstedt has a lot to do with that.

The school has some tradition and won a title 30 years ago, but has not gotten back up to that level in a long time. I recall some good Pitt teams in the 1980s.

That's another school that Gruden has been interested in coaching, so that may be something of interest in a few years.

I don't think Wannstedt has much more time. This is his fourth year and the program has not returned to national prominence as was hoped. They are unlikely to make a bowl game and could conceivably finish below Syracuse in the Big East.

Both those schools really need to look elsewhere for coaches. Greg Robinson is not a good fit for Syracuse. He doesn't tap into the local recruits as much as he should and his offense doesn't match the talent he's getting. This is his third season and the Orange may go in a different direction after it. I think that they need to.


Have you ever been to Pitts campus? I'm of the opinion that only the reduction of scholarships has kept them decent the last several years. With all that's available as far as TV coverage and so forth elsewhere....
l'll just say this, if you are going to get more than a few homegrown big time players you better be able to RECRUIT. And I'm not talking RECRUIT. I mean RECRUIT.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:52 pm

Oh, and by the way, Buff is correct in the first post. There are about 20 things, including calling a play that had more than a do or die option or getting the best player on the field involved - rather than chucking up a fade pattern. This is especially true considering how easy it was for them to move the ball.

Wannestat. Christ.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:25 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:Have you ever been to Pitts campus? I'm of the opinion that only the reduction of scholarships has kept them decent the last several years. With all that's available as far as TV coverage and so forth elsewhere....
l'll just say this, if you are going to get more than a few homegrown big time players you better be able to RECRUIT. And I'm not talking RECRUIT. I mean RECRUIT.


No, haven't been to Pitt's campus. They do play in a nice facility, though.

Pitt does go outside of their area. They usually pull down some pretty good players from Florida every year. They do fairly well in western PA, though they could stand to strengthen their presence in NE Ohio.

They've currently got 21 Florida kids on their roster.
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Unread postby furls » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:08 pm

No, haven't been to Pitt's campus. They do play in a nice facility, though.


Everyone has nice facilities now.

They do fairly well in western PA, though they could stand to strengthen their presence in NE Ohio.


They don't get the really good players out of WPa. Those guys are still ending up elsewhere. I don't think you have to get "Elite" prospects to win in the NCAA, you have to develop the players you have. Pittsburgh is not.

The fact that they are going to Fl for recruits underscores the problem, they are not getting the better players in their own area. Central and Western PA has plenty of good talent, Pittsburgh just can't get it.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:28 pm

Furls wrote:Everyone has nice facilities now.


Not everyone, but most schools.

I was referring to the stadium. Playing in a NFL stadium should be a good recruiting tool, especially in the Pittsburgh area. They can offer their recruits the ability to play on the same field as the Steelers. I know it has worked to great effect for USF's program but I wonder how well Wannstedt and crew are at utilizing it.

They don't get the really good players out of WPa. Those guys are still ending up elsewhere. I don't think you have to get "Elite" prospects to win in the NCAA, you have to develop the players you have. Pittsburgh is not.


Player development falls right at the feet of the coach. I agree there, Wannstedt has done a poor job of it.

The fact that they are going to Fl for recruits underscores the problem, they are not getting the better players in their own area. Central and Western PA has plenty of good talent, Pittsburgh just can't get it.


They could with better development and utilization of the tools they have. Part of the thing with FL is that most schools nowadays feel they have to recruit down here in order to survive. Most of the big schools up north come down here to go after kids. Part of that has to do with the depth of talent. Last I saw, several hundred players get signed out of Florida every year by I-A schools, the majority of them from BCS conferences. If Pitt can't snag the major talent in their area then I think the current climate dictates that they have to go hard into Florida to find guys.
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Unread postby furls » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:39 pm

I hate the "star" system, but it is convenient here in this case....

In order to succeed on any kind of national stage, you must first be good enough to get your own regional elite talent. You must at least be able to be seriously in the running for the 5* kids in your own area. If you are not, then why in the hell would good players from outside your region come? So Pittsburgh is left "prospecting" for Florida passovers (guys whom most of the major programs have picked through) to fill their roster.

Meanwhile guys from their own backyard, like Terrelle Pryor, go elsewhere.

Playing in an NFL stadium is not as a big a draw as you think. What impresses the players are the work out/practice facilities. Playing in the stadium is a once a week thing, but as long as the stadium is big enough to bring in the big crowd for Saturdays, then it is good enough.

What wows recruits are NFL draft picks, national exposure, success, and facilities.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/foundation ... orts&tot=9

http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2007/0 ... woody.html
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Unread postby Hi Oktane » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:53 pm

Peeker643 wrote:Going for it and throwing on 3rd and 4th down form inside the two was flat out stupid.


And throwing a FADE!?? OK on 1st or 2nd, but the absolute worst final down play in football. I'd throw a fullback screen to Vickers first.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:07 pm

Pitt's campus is really metro, and not in the greatest of areas. I think it's a very tough sell to anyone, and I'd be willing to bet a REAL tough sell to a kid from Western Pa, who is quite used to a rural existence.

Penn State, in the middle of nowhere - now your talkin'
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:09 pm

Furls wrote:I hate the "star" system, but it is convenient here in this case....

In order to succeed on any kind of national stage, you must first be good enough to get your own regional elite talent. You must at least be able to be seriously in the running for the 5* kids in your own area. If you are not, then why in the hell would good players from outside your region come? So Pittsburgh is left "prospecting" for Florida passovers (guys whom most of the major programs have picked through) to fill their roster.

Meanwhile guys from their own backyard, like Terrelle Pryor, go elsewhere.

Playing in an NFL stadium is not as a big a draw as you think. What impresses the players are the work out/practice facilities. Playing in the stadium is a once a week thing, but as long as the stadium is big enough to bring in the big crowd for Saturdays, then it is good enough.

What wows recruits are NFL draft picks, national exposure, success, and facilities.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/foundation ... orts&tot=9

http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2007/0 ... woody.html


To a point you can use the star system, but there aren't a lot of five-star recruits out there and some would argue that you only become a five-star recruit when one of the big name programs goes aggressively after you.

You and I both don't care for that system.

I agree on the athletic facilities and have no idea what Pitt has there.

I also don't know how much Pitt leverages their past history. Are Dorsett and Marino still involved at all with the program?

It should be noted that USF managed to build the football program working out of trailers.

That's not the case now nor has it been for over three years. A state of the art training facility was built on campus. The USF Athletic Training facility is 103,000 square feet in size, about 25,000 sq ft more than OSU's facility for reference. There is no indoor field like at Ohio State, but we don't need those down here.

It has been easier to draw recruits since building it. Our facility is considered to be one of the best in the SE and some have said in the nation. I haven't been to them all, so I couldn't tell you. It is certainly the best in the state, although UF will be doing some renovating. Miami has the worst overall facilities of any of the BCS schools down here by far, though they still get some prime recruits. Their history plays a huge factor in that - five national titles in the past 25 years can help out in recruiting. Same for all they NFL players they've produced.
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Unread postby Bayou Tribe » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:03 pm

I agree with alot of what has been said so far, and I think that based on all of the elite programs having similarly great facilites it more than likely comes to 2 main factors....

(1) Location. Sure you'll have the kid that comes halfway across the country to play once in a while, but you are going to live and die with the recruits in your particular region. It also doesn't hurt to be a team on the coast or in Florida, because if you are going to go away from home, why not live somewhere nice for 3-4 years?

(2) Reputation of sending guys to the next level. As much as we love our respective schools, these kids have a bigger picture in mind. You do the little things to show recruits that you'll get them paid, and they are there.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:43 pm

(3) Dave Wannstedt is not your coach.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:49 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:(3) Dave Wannstedt is not your coach.


Actually, many of the points made above might be clues as to why he ended up at Pitt. That job is losing value to coaches as well as players.

Hey, if some group of humps hired Norv Turner to lead a professional team for the 2007 season, you never know where this clown will surface.
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Unread postby Apex777 » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:57 pm

It's been stated that Pitt is not getting the "big talent" that some feel they should be able to recruit. Would anyone care to expound on why they believe this happens?
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:11 pm

Apex777 wrote:It's been stated that Pitt is not getting the "big talent" that some feel they should be able to recruit. Would anyone care to expound on why they believe this happens?


Have you read this thread? There are already a number of valid reasons listed.
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Unread postby furls » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:55 pm

Here is a quick recap:

1.) Urban Campus: That can hurt or help you. There are many urban campuses that do fine, but an urban campus in a shitty, cold weather city... well not so much, but that alone is not enough to deter elite players.

2.) National Prominence: When was the last time Pitt mattered? Long before any of the players whom they are currently recruiting started watching college football.

3.) NFL Draft Day: As much as we all would love to believe that players come to our schools because they want to be Buckeyes, Bulls, Chickenhawks or whatever, the reason they play college ball is so that they can become Browns, Bengals, Steelers, and Patriots. Now, how many times per draft do you here Pitt called, and more importantly, how many times is that on the first day?

4.) Recent success: By my count, Pittsburgh is about the 5th best program in its own conference. It is not easy to sell guys with a lot of options on a team that does not succeed. These kids only get one shot at going with a team (unless they are willing to forego a year of eligibility and can find a team willing to let them transfer in), would you gamble?
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:06 pm

Furls wrote:Here is a quick recap:

Without being flip and including "absence of Dave Wannstedt" as number 5, I think the identity of the coach does have some juice in some of these decision, as well as scheme. For example, a skill player would love to hear from Urban Meyer or Pete Carroll. A small, quick receiver would like to play for Mike Leach. A big running back would like to hear from Wisconsin. There are likely more examples, I'm not all that knowledgeable, but I know that tight ends don't go to Texas Tech, and small, athletic offensive lineman generally don't head to Michigan.
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Unread postby furls » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:19 pm

Steve you are 100% correct, as a matter of fact, that is probably 1A right along with a program's ability to put you in the NFL and both of those actually support each other.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:00 pm

Furls wrote:4.) Recent success: By my count, Pittsburgh is about the 5th best program in its own conference. It is not easy to sell guys with a lot of options on a team that does not succeed. These kids only get one shot at going with a team (unless they are willing to forego a year of eligibility and can find a team willing to let them transfer in), would you gamble?


Maybe from a program perspective they are fifth best overall, but falling fast. I'd say they are sinking towards seventh and maybe eighth if Syracuse can pull things together.

Louisville is certainly struggling this year due to a non-existent defense, but they are ahead of Pitt. I'd say the UConn program has made strides and would be placed ahead of Pitt based on their progress over the past few years. Cincy has also made progress and jumped them. WVU has been ahead of them for a long time now. Rutgers leapfrogged them and is making a strong case for keeping good Eastern Penn, NJ, and NYC talent in the area. USF has built up and passed them.

The only one I'd put them above now is Syracuse. Both programs have the wrong coaches, IMHO.

I agree with Buff on the coaching front - that does come into play. While Wannstedt's NFL credentials may impress some, he does always sound like he's drunk and may not make the best of presentations. He and his staff are poor on player development. Their best player in recent memory was pre-Wannstedt (Larry Fitzgerald).

They've chosen coaches poorly for years. They brought back a washed-up Johnny Majors in the mid-90s. Walt Harris brought the team back to mediocrity, but it never got back to where it was during the time of Majors and Jackie Sherrill.

They picked up their most NFL draftees in a while under Walt Harris. Wannstedt has seen those numbers go down.

Pitt is currently searching for a new AD. I'd guess that a new AD would like to start fresh, but he's need someone who can sell Pitt to the top tier local recruits and also develop the players.

They might be wise to pursue Dan Mullen from UF before others go crazy after the guy. Of course Syracuse could also show an interest and he was a grad assistant there. I think a lot of schools might go after the young assistants on Urban Meyer's staff.
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Unread postby furls » Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:19 pm

Maybe from a program perspective they are fifth best overall, but falling fast. I'd say they are sinking towards seventh and maybe eighth if Syracuse can pull things together.


Syracuse is a basket case, and I cannot believe that you are seriously mentioning them in a conversation about college football. It just underscores how ridiculously bad Pitt is. I was just making up a number when I said fifth, I just don't care enough to try to sort out the mess that is the middle of the Big East pack.

There are a couple of good teams in that conference, and then you can flush the rest of the entire league down the shitter, just like every other conference in the country this year besides the SEC and PAC-10.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:21 pm

Speaking of Pitt players in the draft Furls, who could forget their watershed moment, when D Lineman Marc Spindler, a potential first rounder had to wait in that cafe under the watchful eyes of the ESPN cameras for like 6 rounds.

He was the original "nationally embarrassed guy on draft day"
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Unread postby furls » Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:25 pm

They might be wise to pursue Dan Mullen from UF before others go crazy after the guy. Of course Syracuse could also show an interest and he was a grad assistant there. I think a lot of schools might go after the young assistants on Urban Meyer's staff.


The new en vogue coach source is from small programs (see Meyer, U. et al). The new thinking is that coaches that win at a level can generally win at any level. BSU's coach is getting a lot of mention so is the coach from Wofford. In the end, who cares, Pitt's days in the sun are done.
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Unread postby furls » Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:26 pm

He was the original "nationally embarrassed guy on draft day"


LOL, i almost forgot about that shit. That program is as dead as TCU.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:17 am

Furls wrote:There are a couple of good teams in that conference, and then you can flush the rest of the entire league down the shitter, just like every other conference in the country this year besides the SEC and PAC-10.


Hey, you've found us some common ground.

The SEC is really the wonder of college football. They're really good every year and I think much of it has to do with the distribution of the best players in the country. When I looked at the breakdowns for the past few years it was the southeast that had the most five and four star guys.

We both aren't fans of that system, but it is there.

As for Syracuse, I think they do have more potential. They may not get back to the "really good" levels of the past, but they can be much better than they are. A decade ago they were pretty strong.

I don't expect Pitt to resurface as a national power, but they were a better under Walt Harris. Pitt was at least a perpetual middle of the pack bowl team then and would occasionally crack the top 25.
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:24 pm

Things you can count on during college football season:

1) Mac obsessing over the state of Florida and turning every thread into a Florida vs. the world argument.

2) Mac acting like the Big East matters. Did you hear WV is the fastest team ever, they did sign a few Florida players after all.....?

3) Mac worshiping the SEC because Florida is in it.

4) Mac suddenly becoming a scUM fan again if they are playing well. "The best rushing defense ever."

5) Mac making a college football board almost unreadable.

....

There is a similar list involving basketball, trading Larry Hughes to Orlando, Cito Gaston, and Disney world in case if anyone wants it.
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Unread postby furls » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:38 pm

While I will agree that we all have our biases, let's try to keep the boards civil.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:37 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Things you can count on during college football season:

1) Mac obsessing over the state of Florida and turning every thread into a Florida vs. the world argument.


There are certainly other great football states and Ohio is one of them, but Florida's achievements over the past 25 years of football are great. Nine Division I-A titles over that period for the state. Two since 2000. To Ohio State's credit they have appeared in two title games during that period. Four times the state of Florida has been represented in the BCS title game since 2000. That's 57% and evidence of the state's strength in the sport.

2) Mac acting like the Big East matters. Did you hear WV is the fastest team ever, they did sign a few Florida players after all.....?


It does ultimately matter because it is a BCS conference and has maintained it's eligibility since VT, Miami, and BC left. That is significant because many people felt that the BE would lose BCS status but we've won our last two BCS Bowl appearances. Because of that the Big East certainly matters. Honestly, I think it's pretty jumbled up below the SEC and PAC-10 right now and a case could be made for any of the remaining BCS conferences to be placed behind the SEC and PAC-10.

3) Mac worshiping the SEC because Florida is in it.


I don't worship the SEC, but I do think the SEC is the best conference by far. Granted, I see A LOT of SEC football because I live in the Southeast, but I also watch quite a bit of other conferences this year due to USF's success and my interest in how they stack up (and also how the Big East's schedule can improve, USF's can improve, etc - I was rooting for Oregon State today because Cincy beat them and THAT has to potential to positively affect our schedule if we beat them, even after the Louisville loss which is a wash because we play both teams).

4) Mac suddenly becoming a scUM fan again if they are playing well. "The best rushing defense ever."


I've always said I root for them because my mom's an alum and I grew up pulling for them. I also root for Illinois because my brother went there and I honestly don't care who wins that game. My mom went to Michigan, my bro to Illinois, one uncle to Minnesota, and another uncle to Indiana. I do have some strong Big Ten roots and had Wisconsin, Indiana, Illinois, Purdue, Michigan, Northwestern, and Ohio State on my list of potential schools for me to go to. I've visited all the campuses except for Northwestern and nearly got disowned for even considering Ohio State. None of those Big Ten schools was my favorite consideration though. Miami (OH) is still my favorite campus amongst the ones I've visited. Problem is that I didn't fancy paying out of state tuition, even with scholarships. Florida has the cheapest in-state tuition of any state, so I stayed here. I went to UF in Gainesville first and transferred to USF because of my dislike of how UF handled their academic side of things. USF offered a much more student oriented setting and was only a few years into their football program when I started there.

But, you see, I actually ATTENDED UF and went to games there. I'm not a fan, but I do pull for them too unless USF can benefit from a loss. I rooted for Auburn against them because of this.

And since I've lived down here for 20 years, I have some pride. I have great pride in NE Ohio too and never have considered myself a fan of any professional teams down here, even when the Bucs were going to the Super Bowl and the Browns were in the toilet. I often pulled for the Bucs with Dungy here and have pulled against them since he left, knowing how the Glazers stabbed him and Rich McKay in the back.

5) Mac making a college football board almost unreadable.


You're free to skip my posts if you like. I'm sorry I can be confrontational and callous, but that's how I am when I react. Still, I do respect the posters here and the knowledge they bring to the table. Sometimes I do just like ruffling feathers too, though I don't know whether I do or not because it's a message board and not a real life conversation.

I really enjoy reading Furls' perspective because he does know college football. Trust me, I normally could care less about reading a Buckeyes game preview, but I do enjoy reading his. For the record, I don't read Wolverine game previews or UF game previews, etc. I DO read USF previews, but that is my alma mater and I have seen the program and the school itself grow.

Everyone in my family is attached to USF. My dad worked at WUSF-TV for a decade while I was growing up and has taken classes there. My bro transferred from Illinois and finished at USF. My mother did coursework there that was transferred to Akron, the school she received her Masters in Nursing from. I remember what USF was like in 1986 when I first visited the campus with my parents for a Neil Diamond concert at the Sun Dome. I grew up with the school and saw it change from being a regional commuter school to becoming a Research I school in Florida and becoming far more selective in admissions (average freshman GPA is up to about 3.8 now, I think). I saw the football program start from nothing and rise to where it is now.

There is a similar list involving basketball, trading Larry Hughes to Orlando, Cito Gaston, and Disney world in case if anyone wants it.


I've said repeatedly that Orlando would be interested if they had the salary to trade. They don't - not in any form that would really be tradeable. And they also greatly preferred Rashard Lewis but didn't know if they'd land him.

Larry Hughes is tradeable, as I've said. It just depends on whether the hyper-inflated salary you acquire in trade fits better for the Cavs than Larry Hughes.

Cito Gaston hangs out in a bar called Mixxers that is on the corner of Tampa Rd. and East Lake Rd. in Palm Harbor, FL. If you ever come down here and visit it then you can speak with him too. It's about a half hour drive from the Tampa International Airport. He's very sociable and will give you his opinion of just about any MLB team or player unless they're incredibly obscure.

And, yes, I love Disney World and have an annual pass. I've got one for Sea World, Busch Gardens, and Universal Orlando as well. I'm a theme park and roller coaster junkie. You caught me. I also love going to those places while football is played in the fall because the lines are short and I'm not a fan of crowds. I'm also spoiled because I know when each park has attendance lows so I know when I can do the most in the least amount of time.

I'd be more than happy to provide advice to anyone who is considering a trip to any of those parks or Florida in general and I've actually gotten a couple dozen emails from readers who know I live in Tampa and are asking for advice.

Why's it so bad that I love Disney theme parks?
Mr. MacPhisto
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Favorite Player: LeBron James
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