Louisville vs. MTSU another upset brewing?

[furls]

38-35 Louisville at the half and MTSU is looking like the better team. Louisville's defense isn't even trying; I cannot believe that their defense could really be THIS bad.

[swerb]

MTSU drops 350+ total yards on em in the 1st half. Wow.

Louisville still wins by 20. Rivalry game next week, caught looking ahead.

[FUDU]

Damn this is tough.

I mean b/c Seven is on TNT, Colts v saints and this good game.

[leadpipe]

If you're giving up those points to MT, you are not a top ten team in the country. Actually, more to the point made above, if you look like you aren't even trying on defense, you're not a top ten team in the country. How in the world are they going to stop WV.

[furls]

It just underscores what I have been saying about the Big East all along, they just aren't that good. I really don't care what their bowl record was last year (where they basically loaded up on MTSU's).

There are some programs that are getting better in the Big East (as Mac pointed out) like USF and Cincy (either of whom may actually be the best team in the conference), but at the top, they are grossly overrated.

[Mr. MacPhisto]

It just underscores what I have been saying about the Big East all along, they just aren't that good. I really don't care what their bowl record was last year (where they basically loaded up on MTSU's).

There are some programs that are getting better in the Big East (as Mac pointed out) like USF and Cincy (either of whom may actually be the best team in the conference), but at the top, they are grossly overrated.

I agree, Cincy and USF may be the best teams. Rutgers actually is pretty good because they actually have a defense, a good running attack, and the new QB may be effective. That's the strength for USF and Cincy as well.

Louisville and WVU are similar to Michigan in that regards - plenty of offensive firepower but lacking in defense.

Louisville did firm up on defense in the second half and the idea that they were looking ahead to next week does have some relevance, but the defense has always been a question mark.

I still think the Big East is a better conference than the Big Ten right now. The homers in the midwest won't agree with me, I'm sure, but the Big Ten is being mocked mercilessly down here and probably everywhere else in the country outside of the midwest. I could be wrong there, but I find the Big Ten very unimpressive at this point. I think the conference is too obsessed with its history and how it has won in the past to adapt and become more modern. It certainly looks a lot slower to me than other conferences.

[pup]

You try to build a team of speed around the late October, early November weather up here and you are going to gte slaughtered in conference play.

The problem with that is most of the non-conference games occur before the weather hits, and all the bowls are in great weather areas, where the speed of other conferences can be showcased.

If you bring Florida or LSU to Cleveland for the NC game on January 7th, they would get handled by the Buckeyes. Too bad that will never happen.

The problem for the Buckeyes/scUM/Wisconsin is they understand all of that and if they want to be in the discussion for National Titles, they need to recruit more speed and less power. But then the Purdues/PSU/Iowa that are really only going to have a shot at something every few years, they will continue to build around power and defenses giving them the advantage in the shitty weather games. It is a bad spot to be in.

I wish some company in C-Town would bid ungodly $$$$$$ to buy a non-BCS bowl game and schedule an SEC #2 vs Big10 #2 game, just to see what happens.

[Mr. MacPhisto]

I wish some company in C-Town would bid ungodly $$$$$$ to buy a non-BCS bowl game and schedule an SEC #2 vs Big10 #2 game, just to see what happens.

Never going to happen and partially because many of the Big Ten schools wouldn't want it. The bowl games do mean something, but they are a reward for a good season. Part of the reward is enjoying the area where the bowl is and the climate does have something to do with that. Here in Tampa the teams visit the beaches, go to Busch Gardens, the Aquarium, Ybor City, and may make a trip to the Orlando area for Disney World, Sea World, or Universal. Same goes for the fans of those teams. The theme parks are packed in with visitors from Big Ten cities in Tampa and Orlando. Last year at Busch Gardens' New Years' Eve celebrations there were thousands of Penn State and Tennessee fans all over. As much as I love Cleveland, the experience for the fans and the players wouldn't be the same on December 31.

You do have a point, brute force doesn't do as well against speed when field conditions are good.

[pup]

I wish some company in C-Town would bid ungodly $$$$$$ to buy a non-BCS bowl game and schedule an SEC #2 vs Big10 #2 game, just to see what happens.

Never going to happen and partially because many of the Big Ten schools wouldn't want it. The bowl games do mean something, but they are a reward for a good season. Part of the reward is enjoying the area where the bowl is and the climate does have something to do with that. Here in Tampa the teams visit the beaches, go to Busch Gardens, the Aquarium, Ybor City, and may make a trip to the Orlando area for Disney World, Sea World, or Universal. Same goes for the fans of those teams. The theme parks are packed in with visitors from Big Ten cities in Tampa and Orlando. Last year at Busch Gardens' New Years' Eve celebrations there were thousands of Penn State and Tennessee fans all over. As much as I love Cleveland, the experience for the fans and the players wouldn't be the same on December 31.

You do have a point, brute force doesn't do as well against speed when field conditions are good.

I understand that, but that doesn't mean I don't want it to happen.

Selma Hayek in my bedroom ain't happening either, but.....

[FUDU]

but I find the Big Ten very unimpressive at this point. I think the conference is too obsessed with its history and how it has won in the past to adapt and become more modern

mac I am not going to try to make this a whole big OSU thing, but OSU happens to be a good example for a reply.

What you are saying doesn't hold much water, why, b/c OSU since the BCS started, has been in the mix virtually every year but two. Also they have played in 2 NC games in 4 years. In the first one they beat a team with incredible speed and overall great talent in Miami (on both sides of the ball) and at the time Miami was considered an incredible college team, the second NC game of course they lost, and Florida was not Miami's caliber.

Wisconsin has won some nice bowl games as well in the BCS era.

So to say they are not "modern" or imply that the rest of college football is passing them by is disingenuous.

I mean let's remember the past 2 years the Buckeyes have had the fastest man on the field in every game they played and arguably the 2nd or 3rd fastest, with Ginn and Gonzo respectively.

You can say they don't match up from game to game with other conference elites from time to time and I would buy that, but I don't buy what you said above.

[FUDU]

The problem for the Buckeyes/scUM/Wisconsin is they understand all of that and if they want to be in the discussion for National Titles, they need to recruit more speed and less power.

I agree for the most part.

You have to remember though, in order to get to the BCS or the NC game you have to get through or out of your conference, and like you already said, you aren't gong to do that in late October early November with all speed and no power.

IMO th better Big Ten schools have done a good job of keeping that balance.

Shit let's not forget the Cooper years, he had arguably the most talented team in the nation 4 or 5 different years throughout the mid to late 90's. Power and speed, not Ginn speed but not many have that even every other year.

[pup]

The problem for the Buckeyes/scUM/Wisconsin is they understand all of that and if they want to be in the discussion for National Titles, they need to recruit more speed and less power.

I agree for the most part.

You have to remember though, in order to get to the BCS or the NC game you have to get through or out of your conference, and like you already said, you aren't gong to do that in late October early November with all speed and no power.

IMO th better Big Ten schools have done a good job of keeping that balance.

Shit let's not forget the Cooper years, he had arguably the most talented team in the nation 4 or 5 different years throughout the mid to late 90's. Power and speed, not Ginn speed but not many have that even every other year.

Which is where this part came in:

The problem for the Buckeyes/scUM/Wisconsin is they understand all of that and if they want to be in the discussion for National Titles, they need to recruit more speed and less power. But then the Purdues/PSU/Iowa that are really only going to have a shot at something every few years, they will continue to build around power and defenses giving them the advantage in the shitty weather games. It is a bad spot to be in.

[furls]

but I find the Big Ten very unimpressive at this point. I think the conference is too obsessed with its history and how it has won in the past to adapt and become more modern

Tend to disagree to a large extent there.

Ohio State (as an example has played in 4 BCS Bowls in 5 years and has won 3 of those 4 bowls (4 of their last 5).

The conference is no longer the 3 yards and a cloud of dust that characterized it in the past. To state as much implies that you don't probably don't watch much Big Ten football.

Michigan uses NFL style zone blocking now.
Ohio State ran a spread option last year.
Purdue has been running spread option for years
Northwestern (as bad as their talent is) runs a very innovative offense that is impossible to characterize in a bullet.
Illinois runs an option pass style offense (like Indiana)
Wisconsin is really the only hold over from the "pound you into submission" offense
MSU hasn't been a neaderthal Big 10 offense since 1974. THey ran a pass friendly shotgun offense for about the last 5 years.
Penn State refuses to play offense (and they weren't in the neaderthal big 10)

It is a stereotype that dates to the 80s when college football underwent widespread change to more of a passing attack and the Big Ten spent most of the decade trying to win with 3 yards and a cloud of dust. The Big Ten has had about as much success as any other conference over that 15 year period.

Biggest problem facing the Big Ten right now is bad coaching. The talent is there, the coaches just suck (for the most part). Lloyd Carr, Ron Zook, Glen Mason (gone), John L. Smith (gone), and Joe Pa (whom the game has clearly passed) etc.

Mac, you are of course entitled to whatever opinion you chose based on whatever criteria you like. I know my biases. I know more about Big Ten football. I follow it closer than any other conference, etc., so I know that this in some way affects every opinion I have in college football (in much the same way that the SEC homers feel that the only true football is played in the south).

I will say that I think the Big East is not as good as you think, and I am sure that you are basing your opinion on your own criteria, observations, and biases. Louisville, one of the Big East's heavyweights, looked absolutely ridiculous last night. Every bit as bad as Michigan this last weekend. In the end Louisville won the game, but that does not change that they gave up 42 points and nearly 600 yards of offense to a MTSU team that SHUT DOWN by FAU last week.

The most telling thing I saw in that game last night was that the Louisville defense was not even interested in playing. Had Louisville played any of the best 8 teams in the Big Ten they would have been "handled." In the end, I am not sure that Louisville's defense ever really turned it on. It looked to me that MTSU crumbled at the end. Even in the 4th quarter MTSU was able to rip off huge gainers against a team that should have crushed them (in theory).

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Mac, you are of course entitled to whatever opinion you chose based on whatever criteria you like. I know my biases. I know more about Big Ten football. I follow it closer than any other conference, etc., so I know that this in some way affects every opinion I have in college football (in much the same way that the SEC homers feel that the only true football is played in the south).

I will say that I think the Big East is not as good as you think, and I am sure that you are basing your opinion on your own criteria, observations, and biases. Louisville, one of the Big East's heavyweights, looked absolutely ridiculous last night. Every bit as bad as Michigan this last weekend. In the end Louisville won the game, but that does not change that they gave up 42 points and nearly 600 yards of offense to a MTSU team that SHUT DOWN by FAU last week.

University of South Florida Bulls - 26
Auburn Tigers - 23

in Jordan-Hare Stadium.

The most telling thing I saw in that game last night was that the Louisville defense was not even interested in playing. Had Louisville played any of the best 8 teams in the Big Ten they would have been "handled." In the end, I am not sure that Louisville's defense ever really turned it on. It looked to me that MTSU crumbled at the end. Even in the 4th quarter MTSU was able to rip off huge gainers against a team that should have crushed them (in theory).

Louisville wouldn't have quit on D like they did. They firmed it up in the second half and won.

What about Ohio State versus Akron? Why did Akron hang with them for so long, even with what'shisface's INTs is the first half? Yeah, the Zips didn't roll up any significant yardage, but the Buckeyes choked in the first half. I wouldn't be so hard on Louisville, it happens to good teams sometimes. Ohio State's own ineptitude made them look not so good against an inferior Akron squad.

Wisconsin's struggles against UNLV?

I think the Big East is better and I'd like West Virginia or Louisville's chances against Ohio State, Wisconsin, or Penn State. In fact, I'd like USF , Rutgers, and Cincy's chances against those same Big Ten teams too.

USF did something that Ohio State hasn't done in a long time - beat a SEC team in their own house. Did you know that Auburn has a better record over the past few years than Ohio State and Florida. They have their deficiencies, but our puny little Big East squad went there and won. We should have won more decisively, but we had out own problems. We got five turnovers and turned them into practically nothing. Our kicker did horribly, yet we still won. Look at all that went wrong for USF and then realize that we still won in Auburn. Do you think Ohio State could have pulled that victory out of their butt? Maybe, but I'd guess that OSU doesn't have a CB on the squad as good as our two best starters who may be the best in the nation.

You believe what you want, but the empirical data is starting to scream that the Big Ten is in the toilet. The talent level is not the same and the offenses are horrible. Yes, they're not the same ancient ones used 20 years ago, but they're not as potent as offenses outside the conference because there is still a lack of speed in the Big Ten.

This year, the Big East is better. I don't expect you to believe it and I'm sure we won't get a chance to beat a Big Ten team in a bowl, but I'd love for us to be given the opportunity.

Now, let's be serious. Did you think USF could and would beat Auburn or did you think that Big East teams couldn't do stuff like that because Big Ten teams would have trouble doing it?

[furls]

Laughable.

On a week in which Louisville was exposed by MTSU, WVU looked ordinary against Marshall, and Rutgers struggled with Navy you are speaking about the how good the Big East is based on USF's win over Auburn?

I said, I thought that USF or Cincy was probably the best of the Big East and I stand by that assertion even moreso today. As for the rest of the Big East, they are simply overrated.

USF beat Auburn and they looked pretty good in doing so, as a matter of fact, the fact that they play good defense makes them my favorite to win the division. We still have no idea about Auburn. That win may look great in a few weeks or it may look a lot like ApState's win over scUM.

Louisville wouldn't have quit on D like they did. They firmed it up in the second half and won.

I guess giving up 250 yards to MTSU in the second half is firming up on defense compared to the 300 they gave up in the first half. Touche, you made your point, and they did only give up like 3-4 plays in the second half in excess of 20 yards compared to the boatloads they gave up in the first half. Yep, much better indeed.

5 turnovers, 0 points, 67 yards of total offense against a team that is probably on par with MTSU. Not bad.

I think the Big East is better and I'd like West Virginia or Louisville's chances against Ohio State, Wisconsin, or Penn State. In fact, I'd like USF , Rutgers, and Cincy's chances against those same Big Ten teams too.

Again, your opinions based on your biases.

You believe what you want, but the empirical data is starting to scream that the Big Ten is in the toilet

again, you are trying to argue a point with me that I already made:

All of these teams have their faults, but they all have their virtues too.

There is not a complete team in the Big Ten this year. Ohio State, insane defense, lots of question on offense. PSU, good defense, lots of questions on offense. Wisconsin, by product of a favorable schedule last year? Can they really run the ball against good teams? The list goes on. But what I have seen against of the Big East this year has me believe that they are not very good at all and that the two most complete teams are the ones that are getting no press right now and that they 3 best teams are vastly VASTLY overrated.

Yes, they're not the same ancient ones used 20 years ago, but they're not as potent as offenses outside the conference because there is still a lack of speed in the Big Ten.

Ignorant statement based on stereotype. Ohio State's 3rd string running back is probably the fastest RB in the nation, and their 2nd string RB was actually MR. Football for Florida a couple of years ago. There are a lot of reasons the big ten is down this year, but it certainly is not a lack of talent, as evidenced by recent NFL drafts.

Now, let's be serious. Did you think USF could and would beat Auburn or did you think that Big East teams couldn't do stuff like that because Big Ten teams would have trouble doing it?

I think USF and Cincy would have a shot, but I would have picked against them to win straight up and would probably do so again, but I would have taken the points. Granted USF didnt do much with them, but Auburn still gave them five turnovers and that is worth something in a close game. I am not discrediting the USF win, but I would have to believe that in a rematch Auburn would not turn it over five times. Big Ten teams did not have trouble beating the middle of the road/second tier SEC teams last year in their bowl games, now lets see where Auburn ends up to really gain some perspective on the win.

This year, the Big East is better. I don't expect you to believe it and I'm sure we won't get a chance to beat a Big Ten team in a bowl, but I'd love for us to be given the opportunity.

Who knows what will happen. If the Big Ten is bad as you say, I would not be at all surprised to see the two conference champs play each other. The Big East does not get much national respect and if the Big Ten screws the pooch, then it is likely that they will put the Big Ten Champ with the Big East champ in the BCS bowl that gets last pick of teams (like last year's Wake and Louisville game). I don't see Louisville, WVU, or Rutgers getting through undefeated.

[FUDU]

Maybe, but I'd guess that OSU doesn't have a CB on the squad as good as our two best starters who may be the best in the nation.

Now you are getting ridiculous mac.

Malcom Jenkins is probably better than an USF player period, let alone he is considered one of the top 3-4 CB's in the entire nation and it on many lists to be an All American. There hasn't even been a USF CB mentioned in the same conversation.

I know USF has two good ones, I have at least heard about them and watching the game last night they got their due (the announcers mentioned that they will be playing on Sundays) but that is in no way shape or form a legit comparison to a player of Jenkins caliper.

Be happy and proud of the win over Auburn but keep the conversation about the talent down there realistic at least.

[Mr. MacPhisto]

I guess giving up 250 yards to MTSU in the second half is firming up on defense compared to the 300 they gave up in the first half. Touche, you made your point, and they did only give up like 3-4 plays in the second half in excess of 20 yards compared to the boatloads they gave up in the first half. Yep, much better indeed.

Defense isn't just about the yardage you give up. How many points did MTSU score in the second half compared to the first. I watched large portions of that game and saw Louisville actually step up when they needed to in the second half.

Maybe in your world yardage actually counts towards wins, but in my world I usually prefer to look at the points on the scoreboard.

5 turnovers, 0 points, 67 yards of total offense against a team that is probably on par with MTSU. Not bad.

Didn't watch the Ohio State game. Was Akron running a spread offense like MTSU? Sometimes the offense being run against a team will determine just how good the defense is.

My guess is also that the MTSU players are likely faster than the Akron players based on what I've seen of Akron and the MAC in the past.

There is not a complete team in the Big Ten this year. Ohio State, insane defense, lots of question on offense. PSU, good defense, lots of questions on offense. Wisconsin, by product of a favorable schedule last year? Can they really run the ball against good teams? The list goes on. But what I have seen against of the Big East this year has me believe that they are not very good at all and that the two most complete teams are the ones that are getting no press right now and that they 3 best teams are vastly VASTLY overrated.

Just like the three best teams in the Big Ten then? You admit that the top three teams in the Big Ten are incomplete then you mock the Big East for its top two teams being incomplete. What of Rutgers, who actually has shown strength on both sides of the ball? You say Rutgers struggled against Navy when the closest Navy ever got was 14-7 in the first quarter? Mike Teel and Ray Rice both looked good in that game. The major question that emerges there concerns Rutgers' run defense, but Navy did nothing but pound the ball on them all game, breaking out more in the second half.

Ignorant statement based on stereotype. Ohio State's 3rd string running back is probably the fastest RB in the nation, and their 2nd string RB was actually MR. Football for Florida a couple of years ago. There are a lot of reasons the big ten is down this year, but it certainly is not a lack of talent, as evidenced by recent NFL drafts.

NFL drafts? Please. Such a small percentage of players are taken in the NFL that looking at that is complete garbage. I'm guessing you're talking about Maurice Wells, a player that was only casually pursued by UF and FSU because he was far from the best running back in the state. There were plenty of concerns about his ability to find openings at the collegiate level and his blocking was horrific. His size was also a major concern.

I'm guessing that the other guy you're talking about is Brandon Saine? He's definitely fast on the track. I haven't seen him, but I'd be interested in how well he can cut and accelerate.

How agile is the offensive line at this point for the Buckeyes? Yes, the Big Ten has produced some fine OLinemen and I hope Joe Thomas proves to be fantastic, but I'd say how the whole of the Big Ten team is assembled tried to have it both ways - big, heavy, brute force guys mixed with agile players. I don't think you can have it both ways and that is one of the reasons why the Big Ten is slipping so fast.

I think USF and Cincy would have a shot, but I would have picked against them to win straight up and would probably do so again, but I would have taken the points. Granted USF didnt do much with them, but Auburn still gave them five turnovers and that is worth something in a close game. I am not discrediting the USF win, but I would have to believe that in a rematch Auburn would not turn it over five times. Big Ten teams did not have trouble beating the middle of the road/second tier SEC teams last year in their bowl games, now lets see where Auburn ends up to really gain some perspective on the win.

Bowl games are very different from going into Auburn and winning. Both Florida and LSU lost there last year in close games. The question wasn't if the Big Ten teams could beat them in bowl games, I wanted to know if the Big Ten teams could go into Jordan-Hare with the 90 degree heat coupled with high humidity and win? Maybe you dodged that question because you knew the answer in you heart was not a good one.

Three of the turnovers were forced by USF. One of them was odd - a fumble that popped into the air on a QB sneak. That was a gimme, but the INTs were earned through pressure and the DB stepping into the right place. One of the fumbles was a strip. The other was forced out by a hard hit but the RB never had a good grasp on the ball after the handoff.

Saw a lot of dropped balls by receivers too due to really hard hits by the USF secondary. I wouldn't be surprised if both Mike Jenkins and Trae Williams get All-America honors this year because they may be the best cornerbacks in the country. They also should both be first rounders next year. They are physical, fast, and stick to their men like glue. Better than anyone I've seen so far for the Big Ten (and I have the Big Ten network on DirecTV, though I've only watched glimpses of games).

Who knows what will happen. If the Big Ten is bad as you say, I would not be at all surprised to see the two conference champs play each other. The Big East does not get much national respect and if the Big Ten screws the pooch, then it is likely that they will put the Big Ten Champ with the Big East champ in the BCS bowl that gets last pick of teams (like last year's Wake and Louisville game). I don't see Louisville, WVU, or Rutgers getting through undefeated.

Nor do I see them going undefeated because of the conference. The Big East has seven legitimate bowl contenders this season, the only one not in the mix being Syracuse. UConn is on the rise and has potential for the future. Pitt isn't great, but they're okay and probably can get bowl eligible again. Thus far everyone in the Big East except Syracuse is 2-0 against out of conference opponents. Going 5-0 outside of conference will put teams only one win away from bowl eligibility.

We'll see what happens, but if the Big East does play the Big Ten in a BCS bowl then I'd put money on the Big East team. I'd definitely put money on USF because of their defense. We weren't at 100% on the O-Line last night - our starting center is hurt and the other guys got banged up. The offense is strong as well. Mike Ford is one of the best running backs to ever come out of Sarasota and he was originally and Alabama recruit. Jamar Taylor was another star recruit who played for Lakeland last year, the #1 ranked team in the nation by many and winners of three straight 5A titles, 45 games in a row upon the end of last season.

It's nice to have schools like Lakeland, Plant, Bradenton Southeast, Riverview, Sarasota, etc all in out backyard. Our success will allow us to lock down the Tampa Bay/Lakeland region and keep the best players in Tampa. We're just going to get better. That's why the Big East recruited us. They knew the South Florida had the potential to develop into a national power and anchor the Big East. As it stands, I'd say we're probably the #2 collegiate program in the state. Considering Florida's history over the past twenty five years, that's saying something. No other state has been as dominate over that period in college football.

[FUDU]

No other state has been as dominate over that period in college football.

No other state has had their programs fall as completely off the map either, two programs that went from great to...well just blah non significance.

Unreal to me how short your memory is mac.

You want to pimp Florida's (the state not the school) talent so much in comparison to the Big Ten or the Big Ten states yet you forget the about the last two meetings between the best team's from each respective location.

2003 OSU beats what was considered an unbeatable Miami Hurricane team and in 2007 Florida beat OSU.

So it's 1-1, yet you somehow come to a conclusion that Florida dominates or is far to superior.

Makes no sense.

[Mr. MacPhisto]

No other state has had their programs fall as completely off the map either, two programs that went from great to...well just blah non significance.

Unreal to me how short your memory is mac.

You want to pimp Florida's (the state not the school) talent so much in comparison to the Big Ten or the Big Ten states yet you forget the about the last two meetings between the best team's from each respective location.

2003 OSU beats what was considered an unbeatable Miami Hurricane team and in 2007 Florida beat OSU.

So it's 1-1, yet you somehow come to a conclusion that Florida dominates or is far to superior.

Makes no sense.

It's hardly 1-1. That Miami win doesn't count as strongly as the Florida win does. Miami and Ohio State were pretty equivalent that year as indicated by the close, OT game that is still very controversial down here.

Florida kicked the shit out of the Big Ten's baby. If anything, it's further proof of the Big Ten's decline.

Yes, some of the programs have fallen. Miami fell because they picked the wrong coach in Coker. I think Shannon will revive that program over the next few years. He'll at least bring some discipline there.

Florida State has fallen because Bowden has trusted the wrong coaches and gone after players that don't fit with what he's doing. The defense is still strong at FSU, but take one look at Drew Weatherford to see some of their problems with recruiting.

We'll see what happens as FSU progresses with the new offense under the new coordinator that came from LSU. They lost to a good Clemson team @ Clemson.

Yet Furls himself pointed to Ohio State's star Florida recruit to indicate that OSU an the Big Ten are not stuck in the stone age anymore. Big Ten teams do get some Florida guys every year, but I can guarantee that they wish they could get more Florida ball players. Hell, all the big name schools come down here and try to land the big names every year. This state is loaded down with football talent.

You may accuse me of a short memory, but you have one too. How many championships did Miami win in the years prior to losing to Ohio State compared to Ohio State's big pile of championships during the same time? A lot more than the Buckeyes or any other Big Ten team.

Let me remind you:

Miami has won FIVE national titles over the past 25 years.

Florida State has won TWO over the same period.

Florida has won TWO over the same period.

That's NINE titles for the state of Florida over 25 years versus TWO for the Big Ten. If we count Penn State then I'll give you FIVE, but Penn State was years away from becoming a Big Ten member at the time.

If we want to get into a pissing contest between Florida and Ohio over college football (or even NFL football because of the Bucs' Super Bowl win) then you're going to lose. We could even look at how well Ohio State has fared against good southern teams. How many wins have they picked up against the SEC in bowl games? Oh yeah, ZERO.

Schools do fall on hard times every now and again, but both FSU and Miami have track records. Miami has already recovered once from doldrums (caused by probation) and went on to win a title.

As for Ohio State's win versus Miami - it was due to superior coaching and not superior talent. Last year's beatdown was a combination of superior coaching and superior talent. Coker wasn't a good head coach. I think we all see that now and that is a huge part of the game. Tressel was much, much better in that matchup, though there's some evidence that Tressel's coaching prowess is taking a hit of late.

[FUDU]

It's hardly 1-1. That Miami win doesn't count as strongly as the Florida win does.

Oh sheesh here we go, I should have expected something like that. Mac you have to be better than that.

The Miami team was historically considered head & shoulders above Florida, Florida was a controversial choice for a NC contender going into the last 2-3 weeks of the season for god's sake.

Miami and Ohio State were pretty equivalent that year as indicated by the close, OT game that is still very controversial down here.

What do you mean controversial down there? The controversy has been debunked a million times, there was pass interferences and it was called, just a tad late. Funny how people always claim they just want the right call made except when it goes against their rooting interest. Right call was made.

Florida kicked the shit out of the Big Ten's baby. If anything, it's further proof of the Big Ten's decline.

You want to imply that Miami loss was flukish due to a supposed controversial call but then claim the Florida beat down of OSU wasn't just as flukish? Meaning that if they played that game 10 times it would close the next 9 times. Florida won sure but if you cannot see that game and the margin of victory as flukish there is no hope for you. You're unreal sometimes, really.

Oh and BTW do you know the Big Ten's record against the SEC in the past 5-6 years?

2-1 last year in bowls.

8-6 in last 5 years worth of bowls.

2 NC's for Big Ten and 3 for SEC in last 10 years.

5 Heisman's for Big Ten in last 15 years, 1 for SEC.

The conferences are not far apart at all, but head to head in the past 5-6 years in bowls games, which supposedly mean more, Big Ten has the edge.

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Oh sheesh here we go, I should have expected something like that. Mac you have to be better than that.

The Miami team was historically considered head & shoulders above Florida, Florida was a controversial choice for a NC contender going into the last 2-3 weeks of the season for god's sake.

They weren't controversial after they beat the living shit out of OSU.

I expected better of YOU than to prop up that Miami team just to try to make your team look better. You probably see it like that in your mind, though.

That Miami team was good, but had a fatal flaw with coaching. Just because Florida wasn't respected going into the game doesn't mean they were a worse team than that Miami team.

If anything, Miami was overhyped. Ohio State was overhyped last year just like the whole Big Ten was. That Miami team was also poorly coached and had survived during the season largely on top-notch talent and not on strong coaching.

What do you mean controversial down there? The controversy has been debunked a million times, there was pass interferences and it was called, just a tad late. Funny how people always claim they just want the right call made except when it goes against their rooting interest. Right call was made.

Most everyone who lives here would disagree with you on that one. The controversy has ended in Ohio because you don't want your title tarnished. I agree that there was contact, but I still wonder why it took the official so long to decide to throw the flag when that's something that usually get throw instantly.

As I said at the time, Ohio State still deserved the win because they took advantage of what they were given and Miami did not. Miami had their chances and they didn't shut down the Buckeyes while Ohio State capitalized on mistakes and on the second chance they were given. I always have found it funny that Ohio State fans never want to admit when they've been helped out because they find it shameful. I don't get that - if you get the benefit of a call that even the professional commentators called shaky then you can admit it and say - maybe we did, but we made the most out of it. There's no shame there and it doesn't diminish a win because, guess what, questionable calls are a part of the game.

You want to imply that Miami loss was flukish due to a supposed controversial call but then claim the Florida beat down of OSU wasn't just as flukish? Meaning that if they played that game 10 times it would close the next 9 times. Florida won sure but if you cannot see that game and the margin of victory as flukish there is no hope for you. You're unreal sometimes, really.

I wasn't implying it was flukish. I was implying that Miami had more talent but was more poorly coached. I would guess that those teams would probably split a series of ten because of the coaching.

As for Florida, if you think that was flukish then you're nothing but a huge homer. You got hammered on all fronts. Your Heisman winner proved to be worthless and suddenly all the Browns fans that wanted him in the first round were made fun of relentlessly.

Florida had superior talent AND superior coaching. They may not have blown you out so effectively, but I would say Florida would win that meeting 9 or 10 times out of 10. Pro national commentators said the same thing. You keep calling it a fluke.

Oh and BTW do you know the Big Ten's record against the SEC in the past 5-6 years?

It's a decent record, but they don't tend to play the class of the SEC. I know Ohio State lost to a mediocre South Carolina team twice here in Tampa. Michigan and Iowa beat mediocre Florida teams that had coaching issues with Zook. Penn State beat a Tennessee team that was not that good, just like this year's Tennessee squad.

Wisconsin and Iowa have netted the best showings over the past few years.

2-1 last year in bowls.

8-6 in last 5 years worth of bowls.

2 NC's for Big Ten and 3 for SEC in last 10 years.

5 Heisman's for Big Ten in last 15 years, 1 for SEC.

The conferences are not far apart at all, but head to head in the past 5-6 years in bowls games, which supposedly mean more, Big Ten has the edge.

What's the Big Ten record against the SEC champs?

Heisman Trophies? Yeah, that Troy Smith Heisman meant so much. I said then that him winning was akin to Gino Toretta and Charlie Ward winning it and got hammered before Florida exposed him. I thought the Charlie Ward comparison was the best one, but Ward did manage to win a title with FSU in a close game against Nebraska. Eddie George was deserving, but a lot of SEC players that didn't win the Heisman have proven to be much better than those Big Ten players who did. Seriously, who do you think is really the better QB, JaMarcus Russell or Troy Smith? If you say Troy Smith then you need some help. There's a reason why Russell went so high and Smith did not.

The Big Ten has been okay over the past few years against the middle of the pack SEC teams. It shows that the Big Ten middle of the pack are pretty close to the middle of the pack of the SEC. The problem is that the SEC has a much larger "middle of the pack" section and that the Big Ten has no elite teams. The Big Ten is headed up by middle of the pack teams. The SEC produces at least one big time team every year. LSU looks like the big team this year. Do you think the Big Ten has ANYONE that's ANYWHERE close to LSU? Be honest. I'm sure Wisconsin can take care of one of the middle-pack teams in the SEC. Ohio State probably can't, but they just can't beat the SEC in bowl games. They never have.

[furls]

I am not going to go back and read all the drivel again and actually quote it. If you are basically saying that USF is more talented that OSU, I think you are pretty much not only displaying your lack of knowledge re: college football, but also your own bias.

Seriously, did you just imply that Malcolm Jenkins would not start on USF? Look USF has nice players and they are a well coached team, but seriously?

Then you are going to go back and start writing revisionist history. This isn't about history. This about today. You have already admitted that you do not actually watch the Big Ten play, but you feel qualified to comment on it? I am basing my opinions on the Big Least on the games that I have ACTUALLY SEEN IN THERE ENTIRETY WITH MY OWN EYES, while you continuously revert to revisionist history and stereotypes of Big Ten teams with 0 knowledge of what these teams actually do (your comments about their old school offenses).

You are excited about USFs team this year, I get it. If you feel that by questioning the credentials of the Big East I am questioning all future accomplishments, well then I am sorry, that is not what I am implying. What I am saying, and apparently what got your panties in a bunch was that I said that to claim the Big East was a great conference based on their bowl wins last year is RIDICULOUS.

This year, my observations of the Big East: Their top 3 programs are not as good as Cincinnati and USF. Louisville's defense is terrible, WVUs defense is questionable and their offense is stoppable (as Marshall showed), Rutgers is vulnerable on both sides of the ball (as shown by Navy team that is supposed to be fodder for even ND).

I do not live in a world where games are won by yardage. I live in the real world where it is unacceptable for a "top ten" team to have the ball shoved down their throats for 4 quarters by MTSU. Did Louisville win the game? Sure, but for you to claim that this is not a huge problem (coupled with the running problems shown by Murray St., the worst team in IAA) is ridiculous. It would be like me claiming that Michigan is not that bad (yes they are that bad).

As for talent and the NFL correlation, it is a pretty clear indication of top overall talent. NFL teams are pretty good at picking and choosing players based on that talent. They showed it by not taking Smith until late and by taking Russell early. Do NFL picks make up a microscopic cross section of college players? Yep, but not at some schools. Each year Ohio State puts between 5-9 (up to 14 in 2004, five first rounders in 05). Basically between 25-40% of their roster is drafted each year, that is a pretty strong statement about talent.

[FUDU]

Sorry mac, different site but same take, you show your bias through and through with college football.

Even in the face of factual evidence, as in actual head to head records of conferences, you spin things to no end. But but this and but but that.

Then to suggest in one breath that an OSU v Miami series would be a split and in the next to suggest an OSU v Florida series would end 9-1 favoring the Gators is beyond unreasonable., and it was never suggested as such by the national media either, that is just out right made up. Pretty sad.

While I have no problem with acknowledging the SEC's ability and the fact that Floria deservedly won the NCG you simply cannot disguise your dislike for anything Big Ten or OSU and pro Florida or SEC...which is odd for a guy who repeatedly claims to only have real interest in his school (USF) and not much interest in the rest of college football.