Dispatch: NCAA Penalties Could Be Severe

[Erie Warrior]

I'm with ya, Peeker. And the Amelia Erhart analogy was priceless.

In compliance with Title IX.

[pup]

Can someone lay out an explanation as to why Tressel hasn't been fired at this point?

So they can give Luke Fickell a year to show how he does before hiring Urban.

[jb]

BTW: Your (correct) assertion that most of these kids don't belong on a college campus as real students cuts directly against those who claim the academic scholarship is "payment" for what they give to the school in return.

No it doesn't in the least, dwags.

It just means there is a dissonance in the value of he currency used.

And the term "most" is just a rant by Jesse. Not even true in the least by any objective measure. And I've personally seen too much to give this any credence. Good coaches and kids who try can graduate from a variety of istitutions, let alone most quasi-open enrollment universities.

There's always the Communication major. ;-)

Cognitively? Some. Possibly. But they do have to test at a certain rate and graduate from HS.

Motivation-wise? Shit. How many 17 year old boys have you spoken with lately? Go to the food court of any given mall and you tell me. But that is hardly a student-athlete monopoly.

Bottom line: on average, average, a bachelors degree holder STILL earns > $ 1,000,000 more in a lifetime than a HS grad only. You can't tell me that isn't payment.

[FUDU]

At this point the NCAA is simply using this opportunity to save face and make themselves look good in the midst of scrutiny that these stories bring to them (in large part due to themselves).

NCAA = Detective Alonzo Harris

Dude, I gotta tel ya. I'm reading along with no horse in the race and I have to say, you're the only one in still denial

You're listening but you aint hearing me. I'm not denying any wrong doing or calling for any exemption for JT, haven't once in this whole fiasco.

NCAA is tHMFIC, the PO-LEASE. They put the wheels in motion up in this joint & they know what's goin on when they aint look'n, they got magic eyes. So long as they get to wet their beaks a little it's all good. But when some real shit hits the screen door & they are in the line of fire they come tax'n that ass, and eventually, not often but sooner or later, they gotta do in a Roger...BOOM! The only question, depending how you look at it, is whether or not OSU is Roger or JT is Roger, or....is JT Jake. Either way there is only one Alonzo is this thing.

BTW has there been a worse written article than that latest Deadpin one.

Watch the movie Bill.

[FUDU]

And to FUDU's question, I think the real question is, what are the pros to KEEPING him at this point?

Ah but it doesn't work that way, I asked first.

Seriously though, where are all the names of men who are both superior character guys and superior football minds? I'm not suggesting JT is the Holy grail either way, but the list of who will be far and away better all around is short, short indeed, and it's not like you just go grab the guy, put a pillow case over his head, stuff him in a van and drive to Columbus.

Just be careful what you wish for that's all.

[Spin]

And to FUDU's question, I think the real question is, what are the pros to KEEPING him at this point?

Ah but it doesn't work that way, I asked first.

Seriously though, where are all the names of men who are both superior character guys and superior football minds? I'm not suggesting JT is the Holy grail either way, but the list of who will be far and away better all around is short, short indeed, and it's not like you just go grab the guy, put a pillow case over his head, stuff him in a van and drive to Columbus.

Just be careful what you wish for that's all.

Not to mention it's almost May. Spring practice is already done. It would be hard to install anything of your own. You don't even have all your starters against one ranked opponent, but you get them back the week before another ranked opponent.

The program is looking at possible sanctions, lost scholarships and no bowl games for ??? long. And you gotta go kiss up to a bunch of recruits, who you don't know, and talk them out of going somewhere where they CAN play in bowl games.

Who the hell wants to walk into that pile of shit? Only to get dumped when the sanctions are over for another HC who takes over what you've built out of it.

[jb]

Who the hell wants to walk into that pile of shit?

Dunno. Maybe a coach from a legacy SEC program if he has ties?

Keep in mind they plucked tSV from an FCS program guys. Not like they lured Bear Bryant away from A&M .

[JacksonDysonJackson]

And to FUDU's question, I think the real question is, what are the pros to KEEPING him at this point?

Ah but it doesn't work that way, I asked first.

I know you're just kidding, but with all due respect, the man has repeatedly lied and broken NCAA rules...the burden of proof is on those who want him to stay.

Seriously though, where are all the names of men who are both superior character guys and superior football minds? I'm not suggesting JT is the Holy grail either way, but the list of who will be far and away better all around is short, short indeed, and it's not like you just go grab the guy, put a pillow case over his head, stuff him in a van and drive to Columbus.

Just be careful what you wish for that's all.

The difference is that JT was a phony. So, he isnt a superior character guy. That leaves you with "superior football mind", which he isnt either, but we'll find a middle ground and call him a "pretty damn good football coach". There are plenty of "pretty damn good football coaches" salivating over the opportunity to coach in Columbus.

OSU pays top buck, is a top 10 program, gets top 10 recruiting classes...there won't be a problem replacing Jim Tressel.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

OSU pays top buck, is a top 10 program, gets top 10 recruiting classes...there won't be a problem replacing Woody Hayes.

UM pays top buck, is a top 10 program, gets top 10 recruiting classes...there won't be a problem replacing Bo Schembechler.

Bama pays top buck, is a top 10 program, gets top 10 recruiting classes...there won't be a problem replacing Bear Bryant.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Madre, loved the 3 picture post.

So true.

[jb]

OSU pays top buck, is a top 10 program, gets top 10 recruiting classes...there won't be a problem replacing Woody Hayes.

UM pays top buck, is a top 10 program, gets top 10 recruiting classes...there won't be a problem replacing Bo Schembechler.

Bama pays top buck, is a top 10 program, gets top 10 recruiting classes...there won't be a problem replacing Bear Bryant.

Wow. You might want to check the records of Moellar & Earle there chisel chest. None were exactly Pete Cordelli.

And tSV ain't the Bear

[JacksonDysonJackson]

When people start comparing Jim Tressel to Bear Bryant, its time to close the thread.

[jb]

Moellar's W % - .775

Ole 8 - 3's was - .755

The Bear was .760 overall and .808 at bama. The dif is 5 to 1 as far as national titles and the Bear had a cuple sub-par seasons becasue his school refused to accept African-Americans in the late 60's. The Bam saved his career. Once he could he closed out like a witch in a tough conference that routinely shredded the Big 10 in bowls when they played, inclduing one of the worst Buckeye Bowl beatdowns I ever saw.

tSV is .828 in big time college football at tOSU wher he inherited a very, very full cupboard of umnderclassmen ( granted his seniors sucked ass, but he also chose to play Bellisorryass out of SR loyalty ) . He's .748 for his career when you include lower division football.

That is impressive. Until you also add in that Moellar and Bruce had to actually play competition in the Big 10.

scUM is 79 - 45 in the JT era; .637. They were .738 in the Bruce era, mostly due to an anololy year for Bo in '84 when he lost about 60 starting QB's to injury.

So in summary:

- Bruce and Moellar were hardly buffoons. They were highly successful football coaches in a tougher Big 10. Not on tSV's level, but certainly not evidence that their prediscesors ere irreplaceable and they drove the programs into the ground. And Carr lster a decade doing slightly better then Moellar.

- If tSV could have been a better bowl game coach, he wouldn't be 1 - 2 in title games. Bryant was 5 - 1 in contrast thanks to Tommy Clements playing out his ass.

- JT won 7 out of every 10 games as a D 1AA coach before he landed in C-bus. I hardly see that as a resume that is unable to be duplicated. Hell, it should be improved upon.

- JT is a pedestrian X's and O's coach, as well s "meh" on game day at best. This is no master tachtician. This is a talent-attrition coach.

- Regardless of whether it is tSV or the Next Guy, tOSU and Big 10 are in trouble on the national stage as far as accruing top talent from HS.

[JacksonDysonJackson]

I had a long post constructed about:

- how JT has coached in the weakest Big Ten ever
- how coaches at elite programs are measured by NCs, not winning %
- how JT gets out coached on game day
- How UM's program didnt suffer until 3 coaches removed from Bo, and
- How anyone that compares JT to Bear needs their head examined

But JB dropped that post and explained everything much better than I could.

Bottom line -- he aint the messiah, despite what those Kool Aid drinkers in Columbus think. OSU Football will not die because Jim Tressel was fired.

[FUDU]

It is a good post by JB, hard to disagree with much at all. My only additional comment, while I agree OSU football ultimately doesn't live and die on the shoulders of JT, is tOSU is going to have to make the right hire (just like everybody else) b/c having all the money they bring in and being a vaunted football program doesn't exempt you from being able to fuck it up. As eluded to already, just look at schools like tSUN, USC, Nebraska and Texas, all of them made wrong hires leading up to their resurgences.

As a fan you tell me ahead of time that we get Urban MeyerS and he's utilizing talent much better (like I think he would) and we're in play for NCG in two years then I'm down mark me down, but at the risk of a so so wishy washy hire and mediocrity for 5 before we bail and make another hire, well it's like hittin on a 16.

[peeker643]

It is a good post by JB, hard to disagree with much at all. My only additional comment, while I agree OSU football ultimately doesn't live and die on the shoulders of JT, is tOSU is going to have to make the right hire (just like everybody else) b/c having all the money they bring in and being a vaunted football program doesn't exempt you from being able to fuck it up. As eluded to already, just look at schools like tSUN, USC, Nebraska and Texas, all of them made wrong hires leading up to their resurgences.

As a fan you tell me ahead of time that we get Urban MeyerS and he's utilizing talent much better (like I think he would) and we're in play for NCG in two years then I'm down mark me down, but at the risk of a so so wishy washy hire and mediocrity for 5 before we bail and make another hire, well it's like hittin on a 16.

What if he fell over dead yesterday? Would he still coach after his death like Paterno has for 20 years.

I don't want him gone necessarily but JFC, the guy didn't invent the game or perfect it and one of the main atractions to him being there was the superiority complex of a clean program and his ability to recruit.

One of those is dead and one might yet get really sick really soon.

[hermanfontenot]

Couple things:

1.) I believe there is a correlation between Michigan's decline over the last several years and JT's domination of Michigan, together w/JT largely closing off Michigan's pipeline into the state of Ohio (w/the exception of a few notables like Manningham and Crable.) I don't believe it's a coincidence that Michigan went into the toilet at exactly the same time JT was running up wins over them at a rate no other OSU coach has, including Woody.

Besides, Michigan didn't really collapse as a program until Carr was forced out. Carr's last several years (2001-07) are comparable to the '80s under Schembechler and 1993-96 under Moeller and Carr- when Michigan thrice ended unbeaten runs by Ohio State. Carr never had a team as bad as Bo's 1984 team which went 6-6 and lost to BYU in the Holiday Bowl.

I find it hard to believe Carr's record against Ohio State wasn't at least part of the impetus behind him being forced out.

2.) Tressel’s overall bowl record is pretty good- better than a lot of great coaches. Bear Bryant lost seven straight bowl games at one point. Tom Osborne had a terrible time in bowl games during the late ‘80s and early ‘90s. And Schembechler didn’t win a bowl game until he’d been at Michigan for more than a decade. The one real embarrassment on Tressel’s bowl ledger is the Florida game and he’s certainly not the only coach- not the only Ohio State coach- to have gotten pantsed in a similar manner. I’d argue that Woody’s loss to UCLA in the ’76 Rose Bowl is nearly as bad. Ohio State was walloped by a team they’d beaten by three touchdowns during the regular season and by Woody’s own admission he was completely outcoached by Dick Vermeil.

[jb]

My only additional comment, while I agree OSU football ultimately doesn't live and die on the shoulders of JT, is tOSU is going to have to make the right hire (just like everybody else) b/c having all the money they bring in and being a vaunted football program doesn't exempt you from being able to fuck it up.

Notre Dame says you hurt their feelings (and you are spot on) .

[FUDU]

Excellent point Herm on the Ohio pipeline thing. To take it a step further you could say from a football standpoint Carr was a so so hire, taht would have a bit of a bearing on scum ball during his tenure.

Peeker, no arguments from me, never said he was Paul Brown, I'm just cautious as to the next hire.

[jb]

C
2.) Tressel’s overall bowl record is pretty good- better than a lot of great coaches. Bear Bryant lost seven straight bowl games at one point. Tom Osborne had a terrible time in bowl games during the late ‘80s and early ‘90s. And Schembechler didn’t win a bowl game until he’d been at Michigan for more than a decade. The one real embarrassment on Tressel’s bowl ledger is the Florida game and he’s certainly not the only coach- not the only Ohio State coach- to have gotten pantsed in a similar manner. I’d argue that Woody’s loss to UCLA in the ’76 Rose Bowl is nearly as bad. Ohio State was walloped by a team they’d beaten by three touchdowns during the regular season and by Woody’s own admission he was completely outcoached by Dick Vermeil.

Jesse, just tell me you did not compare the bowl situation from the 1970's and even 80's to a lessor extent to the 2000's with a straight face and we can talk as men talk.

[hermanfontenot]

Jesse, just tell me you did not compare the bowl situation from the 1970's and even 80's to a lessor extent to the 2000's with a straight face and we can talk as men talk.

Well, why aren't they?

[jb]

Jesse, just tell me you did not compare the bowl situation from the 1970's and even 80's to a lessor extent to the 2000's with a straight face and we can talk as men talk.

Well, why aren't they?

Start by reviewing the number of bowls back then compared to now, how frequently top programs would participate, the fact the Big 10 wasn't even allowed to play in any bowls except the Rose until the late 70's, and how the BCS essentially introduced parity post-season scheduling compared to the mismatches then where the Big 10 runner up would face the Big 8 or SEC Champ.

Add in the coaches, demographics, and programs of the 70's Pac 8 as similar to the 2000's SEC and you can see how these records are explained in a context other than tSV > Bo / Woody. And again, Bryant was a victim of the civil rights era during his nadir. Osbourne was cannon fodder for the U until he decided he didn't give a flip and ran arguably the dirtiest program in modern CFB history.

But it seems like I'm in a position of runnning down tSV. I'm not really. I just don't think he's irreplaceable or came into C-Bus on a Roman victory parade. I think the recipe is 80% tOSU as it is and 20% tSV himself. Agree on most of your in-state recruiting take, though, and UM's slide as being somewhat sum zeo to tSV's dominance over them.

[hermanfontenot]

I don't think JT is irreplacable either. Of course, just because that is so doesn't mean the potential to step in dogshit w/his replacement is there. Remember USC hiring Paul Hackett?

[jb]

I don't think JT is irreplacable either. Of course, just because that is so doesn't mean the potential to step in dogshit w/his replacement is there. Remember USC hiring Paul Hackett?

I hear you.

[hermanfontenot]

Add in the coaches, demographics, and programs of the 70's Pac 8 as similar to the 2000's SEC and you can see how these records are explained in a context other than tSV > Bo / Woody.

That's true to an extent. But again, Ohio State beat UCLA by three touchdowns during the '75 regular season, in LA. Unbeaten Michigan lost the 1972 Rose Bowl to a Stanford team that lost to San Jose State and Duke during the regular season. There was something else going on in those games.

The losses to USC are a different story. Keith Jackson still says the '72 USC team is the best ever at the college level, and the '79 USC team that beat Ohio State in the Rose Bowl was off the charts in terms of future All-Pro and HOF talent.

[danwismar]

A couple of points;

Jesse is right to point out that Michigan didn't suck for the entire Tressel decade. The games between them were largely close and competitive up to and including, obviously, 2006.

That said, Carr's recruiting suffered badly in his last few years, and when he went out with Long, Henne, Hart, Manningham, Crable, Woodley, Hall, and others (over a 2-year span) the cupboard was really, really bare for RR...who of course then took suck to a new level.

Please factor into Big Ten's Rose Bowl futility the decidedly unfair issue of the PAC-10 team playing on what was, for all practical purposes, a home field in the game. That has always stuck in my craw. (Does it show?)

[FUDU]

Dude all bowl games for OSU are virtual home games for the majority of their opponents, with the obvious exception of the 2003 Fiesta bowl, not so much b/c "OSU travels so well to AZ" but b/c of Miami's distance as well.

[danwismar]

The other thing that is almost too obvious to say here is that if JT's record vs Michigan were 1-9 instead of 9-1, there would be no debate raging about whether or not he should stay. They'd be well into the interview process by now.

[furls]

I don't think anyone will ever confuse TSV with Bill Walsh and like so many said, if it was a matter of just run out and hand the keys to Meyer then this would be easy. You really need to make sure that you have a good hire in waiting. TSV is not greater than tOSU and is not irreplaceable, but what if the Bucks let him go and go after Meyer and are turned away, then they go after Pelini and are turned away, then we find ourselves in the same situation as scUM a few years ago. scUM hired DickRod (I did say that move would be a disaster then), but most thought it was a good hire. Three years later, well, scUM is rebuilding again.

Rebuilding in the NCAA is hard. I follow recruiting closer than probably anyone on this board and I can tell you that the single most important thing in the elite recruits calculus is recent program success. You are talking about 16 year old kids (most recruiting occurs during a kids sophomore to junior year) so recent is not "within the last decade," recent is the last 3-4 years. While tradition matters to fans, the only tradition that matters to most elite recruits is a program's tradition at the NFL draft and the amount of national exposure that team's get.

The most important thing for tOSU in a new hire, should one occur, is that the new guy has to be either well networked with the HS network in OH or he has to be a major name. So your list begins with Meyer, maybe Pelini, then after that it is guys that have strong ties to OH HS football. Unfortunately if tOSU were to let TSV go, they would have to severe ties with all things TSV and purge TSVs staff, so I really think that rules out Fickell and Heacock. So please, play the game with me here, list the guys that you think tOSU could pull in that would be able to maintain the wall around OH HS ball by either name recognition or connections?

[jb]

then we find ourselves in the same situation as scUM a few years ago. scUM hired DickRod

You mean tOSU can't hire the first choice of HC because he banged earle Bruce's wife and then told recruits earle had parkinson's and was getting ready to retire?

[jb]

So please, play the game with me here, list the guys that you think tOSU could pull in that would be able to maintain the wall around OH HS ball by either name recognition or connections?

Chuck Klye!!!!!!!

j/k

This guy comes to mind as worth consideration:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Stoops

Or Mike. But I like Mark's Florida ties.

Given the magnitude of the pgm, I wouldn't rule out Bobby himself.

[hermanfontenot]

I don't want anything to do with Pelini. The man has zero self-control. And if you think Tressel's offenses are ugly...

[jb]

I don't want anything to do with Pelini. The man has zero self-control. And if you think Tressel's offenses are ugly...

Forget the offesne. Ever see Bo's face?

Maybe Mike Heywood could clean up the program and be more in control? He's available and knows Ohio.

[danwismar]

Tone is always an issue in posts I guess.

I love the guy Dan. He'll always be bigger than this issue IMO. The shit the guy does goes beyond this fuck up without a single doubt.

But if Amelia Earhart had scheduled the release of her book "Chicks Can Do It All" on the date her flight was supposed to get back to the United States it would not have been as ill-timed as the release of this book.

Seriously, I know the proceeds are going to charity, but the publishers have to be sick.

That's what I meant.

A bit off topic, but on the matter of ill-timed books....I give you the release, scheduled for May 17, of Jerome Corsi's "Where's the Birth Certificate?"

http://www.amazon.com/Wheres-Birth-Cert ... 936488299/

Now, that's one sick publisher.

[fundamentals]

A bit off topic, but on the matter of ill-timed books....I give you the release, scheduled for May 17, of Jerome Corsi's "Where's the Birth Certificate?"

http://www.amazon.com/Wheres-Birth-Cert ... 936488299/

Now, that's one sick publisher.

Doesn't look like the publisher is going to capitulate:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42786288/ns ... sion_2012/


TheVest should have consulted with Barack on how to tell the truth.

[Spin]

Now comes the news that they are investigating 50 car sales by a salesman in Cbus to tOSU players. Said salesman got passes to games.

One registration shows the sale price of $0.00.

Another story of TP taking a car on a "3 day test drive" to Pa to visit his parents.

The shit hasn't even started to hit the fan yet...

[furls]

I was just hoping that when the bright lights of investigators shone down on OSU that our roaches would scurry into the shadows fast enough, I guess the stupid motherfucking roaches were dumb enough to leave a paper trail.

If you think tOSU is the only school with this problem, well then you are smoking crack. A similar investigation at every major school would get you similar results. It only matters at OSU now that the stink is already in the air, now they can find all of our turds.

[pup]

I was just hoping that when the bright lights of investigators shone down on OSU that our roaches would scurry into the shadows fast enough, I guess the stupid motherfucking roaches were dumb enough to leave a paper trail.

If you think tOSU is the only school with this problem, well then you are smoking crack. A similar investigation at every major school would get you similar results. It only matters at OSU now that the stink is already in the air, now they can find all of our turds.

Which is the point. You cannot give the 2A a reason to look. Because they ARE going to find something.

Thank #2 in our programs, #1,000,000,000 in our hearts.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

This thread has me lmfao

You guys are providing virtual highlite reels on why I LOL every time I USED to hear how awesome the Big 10 is and how the Pac 10 sucks... and can't play D...

'course now that OSU has gone Free Shoes U the soap box has crumbled..... and somewhere under an oxygen tent JoPa is smiling, like the class act he has been for 50+ yrs knowing titles can't buy you integrity

[furls]

Nothing on the field has changed. The PAC 12 still does not play defense, adding Utah and Colorado didn't change that much. I am not really sure what you are gloating about. There are no issues in the PAC 10/12? Isn't USC still on probation? I am still unsure what you are trying to say with Joe PA, is in the part of the B10 that sucks or is he a class act with integrity?

[JCoz]

Yah, not sure that article by the dispatch on cars is going to be quite the break they think it was but we will see.

And I never understood the "NCAA penalties could be severe article", considering no lack of institutional control was assessed by the NCAA. Penalties cannot and will not be severe in the Bama or USC sense unless that is what they change their assessment to.

[JCoz]

..... and somewhere under an oxygen tent JoPa is smiling, like the class act he has been for 50+ yrs knowing titles can't buy you integrity

According to an ESPN study of Pennsyvlania court records and reports, 46 Penn State football players have faced 163 criminal charges since 2002 and 27 have been convicted of or have pleaded guilty to a combined 45 counts.

Most recently, former Nittany Lions wide receiver Chris Bell pleaded guilty July 22 to making terroristic threats for an April incident in which he pulled a knife on a teammate in a university dining hall.

“We tried to get kids that were good, solid kids,” Penn State Coach Joe Paterno said. “We may have made a mistake or two, but there was no deliberate attempt.”


Right. Stay Classy Joe.

Win with pride because you do it the "right" way.

[jb]

'course now that OSU has gone Free Shoes U the soap box has crumbled..... and somewhere under an oxygen tent JoPa is smiling,

Cause the undertaker shellacked his grill that way.

JoPa has no organs

[hermanfontenot]

I thought winning "the right way" at Penn State meant larding up the schedule with the likes of Temple and Rutgers.

[swerb]

Theory: Terrelle Pryor is not human - and was created in a top secret Ann Arbor laboratory before being sent to Columbus via Jeannette, PA to destroy the Ohio State football program.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Theory: Terrelle Pryor is not human - and was created in a top secret Ann Arbor laboratory before being sent to Columbus via Jeannette, PA to destroy the Ohio State football program.

Is that why he won't show us his birth certificate?

[swerb]

Theory: Terrelle Pryor is not human - and was created in a top secret Ann Arbor laboratory before being sent to Columbus via Jeannette, PA to destroy the Ohio State football program.

Is that why he won't show us his birth certificate?

We need Trump to start pressuring him through the media so we can find out one way or another.

[fundamentals]

Over/under on when Urban Meyer becomes head coach at tOSU?

As was said earlier, when the 2A gets a whiff of wrongdoing, it's game on.
Does not look good for the sweater vest. And for all ose who are going to use "everyone else does it" as an excuse, it's just that, an excuse. The 2A is going to drop the hammer.

[pup]

Over/under on when Urban Meyer becomes head coach at tOSU?

10 days after the Luke Experiment is complete.

JT suspended for the year. Luke gets his shot with The Vest watching over him. If status quo is not maintained, Urban is in.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

I'm still perplexed as to why a legacy program like tOSU would go all in on the Larry Brown of CFB.