OSU vs. UK

[furls]

Here are my 1st half observations:

-Sullinger looks soft and weak against Harrelson, hopefully that ball harrelson threw off of him will piss him off.
-Fouls are a problem for UK right now and will be for the rest of the game.
-Craft has done well and has looked much better than Craft.
-Sullinger needs to make some shots to force open the outside game, if not Buford and Lighty become critical in the midrange game.
-Buckeyes defense (except inside) has looked great.
-All in all, I am pretty happy with a tie after the way that half went, but I am concerned because the Bucks are really struggling to get good looks.

[fairvis]

There's some concern about some of the looks that Kentucky's gotten on picks. I've seen a few nice cuts that have led to easy baskets on UK's side.

There are also some easy baskets that haven't fallen for the Bucks. Layups and putbacks that have been a little bit of an issue. Glad UK's in foul trouble, we need to exploit that the rest of the game.

[fairvis]

Getting chippy now. Refs calling some BS touch fouls as well. The shots aren't falling either.

[dmiles]

Foul advantage seems to have shifted. Does Buford seem to force a little when things aren't going his way? I understand the whole "a scorer must shoot his way out" but he seems to be pressing a bit.

Any concerns in the thread about Craft on D seem to be gone. Tough game.

[TonyIPI]

OSU playing great defense....just missing too many shots 5 feet and in. Gotta start hitting some of these shots.

[fairvis]

The 10 blocks that UK has doesn't help either, Tony.

[dmiles]

Kentucky has defended well. Diebs can't get a clean look so Buford is forcing a bit. Good game plan by Calipari.

[TonyIPI]

Alright....make a defensive stand here and then work for a good shot next possession.

[TonyIPI]

Were the Bucks out of timeouts? Fitting end with Buford clanking the final shot. Credit to Kentucky defense....they really gave the Bucks fits. Too many short shots missed. Also at least a half dozen times Kentucky killed us by breaking us down on the dribble with under 5 seconds on the shot clock for fouls or buckets. Great game.

[shamwow imitator]

2 Timeouts left.

[Orenthal]

In college the ball doesn't advance on a timeout though, right? Taking a timeout there is much more of a risk then cause it allows the defense to set up.

[fundamentals]

In between eating about ninety wings and a couple of gallons of chip dip with a few Ruffles mixed in, I cannot believe they don't take a timeout. I understand trying to get the ball up the floor so the defense doesn't get a chance to "set up" and actually the hard push up the floor got them a decent look but Buford couldn't hit water if he fell out of the boat tonight. I would have given Diebler and/or Lighty a chance but that's me. Once again.

[Orenthal]

^Seemed many of those clanks were also not within an offensive rhythym.

[mattvan1]

In between eating about ninety wings and a couple of gallons of chip dip with a few Ruffles mixed in, I cannot believe they don't take a timeout. I understand trying to get the ball up the floor so the defense doesn't get a chance to "set up" and actually the hard push up the floor got them a decent look but Buford couldn't hit water if he fell out of the boat tonight. I would have given Diebler and/or Lighty a chance but that's me. Once again.

Buford picked a bad game to shit the bed - kid's played very well in the tourney and tonight goes 2-16

[peeker643]

Buford picked a bad game to shit the bed - kid's played very well in the tourney and tonight goes 2-16

End of story, end of season. The Buckeyes were outclassed athletically in 3 of 5 spots, Buford was going to be the guy to get the open looks, he didn't cash them in.

Put the Buckeyes to bed, put the idea that Sullinger is an elite player to bed (if it wasn't already).

Lighty, Craft and Diebler gave what we thought they would.

The thread on Kentucky Koncerns was all about the fact that OSU, despite being experienced and talented, is not athletic and big.

Athletic and big won tonight.

[hermanfontenot]

I thought Ohio State was fortunate to even be in a position to win at the end.

Too bad Diebler didn't get the touch on the last shot.

[waborat]

The older I get, the more I hate this shit...

Gotta find a new pasttime, sumthin like collectin trucker hats

[fairvis]

I've got to be on a flight to DC in 4 hours, and I'm still pissed about this... god, do I hate TCE.

[FUDU]

Not to often you can say "we would have won if we shot 34% for the game".

[furls]

Buckeyes D was impressive. Craft is FUCKING AMAZING, he was the best player on the court last night for either team and it had nothing to do with stat sheets, scoring, assists, rebounds, steals etc. It was the way he was everywhere all the time. The future is bright for Aaron Craft.

The game was a surprise for me because I had not seen KY play defense like that for an entire game, granted all I had seen was the tournament, but I had seen nothing to suggest that they would play that disciplined for the entire game.

Buckeyes should have won that game, Buford was just awful to watch. KY played great D and obviously took Buford out of his game, but still, you gotta do better than 2-16. Most of those 16 were poor choices early in the shot clock from 17 feet away. PAINFUL.

Here are my bullet observations for the game:
-Craft will take this team far every year until he leaves
-Games like this, where the other team matches you body for body, are games where Matta's lack of X&O prowess really hurt. It is great that he is a hands off guy that lets the players play, but sometimes they need some leadership too.
-Sullinger needs another year of conditioning. He looked soft and slow today. The refs were letting a lot go down low tonight and calling the game in the post a lot more like an NBA game. All I could think last night was if the NCAA called all games like this then Oden would've never been in foul trouble and would have put 25 and 15 every night.
-Should Buford and Sullinger comeback, the sky is the limit for next year's team. I think last nights game ensure's Sullinger comes back, but I still tend to think that Buford is gone.

[JacksonDysonJackson]

As I said in the other thread, I thought the game would come down to two things: whether Craft could contain Knight and whether Harrelson could defend Sully one on one.

Craft obviously played great and did his job.

Harrelsonwas excellent on Sullenger. Great defense, from the tip. The cameras focused on Sullinger about half way through the first quarter. I didn't like the look in his eyes. He looked a bit shell shocked. He never matched Harrelson's intensity. Dude needs to come back. He's Tractor Traylor in the NBA right now.

[mattvan1]

As I said in the other thread, I thought the game would come down to two things: whether Craft could contain Knight and whether Harrelson could defend Sully one on one.

Craft obviously played great and did his job.

Harrelsonwas excellent on Sullenger. Great defense, from the tip. The cameras focused on Sullinger about half way through the first quarter. I didn't like the look in his eyes. He looked a bit shell shocked. He never matched Harrelson's intensity. Dude needs to come back. He's Tractor Traylor in the NBA right now.

Sully got exposed on the pick n roll - no issue there. Otherwise, he put up his usual numbers and was efficient. What he failed to do was establish the low post, which really hurt the 3 pt. game. I do fault him for that, but the guy just isn't that much of a banger at this stage of his career.

Peeks is spot on - the Bucks got out "athleted". That and Buford shooting 12.5% from the field - that was a killer. An absolute killer. Especially considering he took more shots than anyone else on the floor.

[FUDU]

I just don't see this game as a complicated one to analyze. OSU shot like crap, even the open shots they had (credit UK for limiting open shots and usual number of 3s taken). Not to mention Thad got outcoached, again, he just struggles too much if his guys are not hitting shots. It's rare to see Thad come up with a good adjustment on the fly in big games.

[e0y2e3]

But the Cavs need Sullinger!!!@$!

[skatingtripods]

I was wrong about this matchup. I liked Ohio State's advantage in the half court and they pissed all over my opinion by not moving the ball and having too much standing around. They fought for every basket, but they never fought to get open away from the ball.

Buford tried to do way too much in the second half, so did Sullinger. I wish Craft had a willingness to take the ball to the rim in the half court more often. They're going to foul him.

A learning experience. If Buford stays and Sully's telling us the truth, they're right there again next year. Hopefully with a little bit more depth.

[Cease]

Expected this thread to be much longer, guess there's no use crying about the loss.

Thought going in that if Buford makes 10 buckets, they win. He didn't, EOS. I still think he's the best pro prospect on that team.

It is said that coaches win/lose games in college. Thad should have set something up for the last shot. Cal solved the OSU puzzle by not doubling Sully and guarding the 3 line. Give Cal 5 days to prep, and he will. Even if it's as basic as what Cal did.

Good year for the Bucks. C-town bars are now clear to enter.

[waborat]

Thad should have set something up for the last shot.

Absolutely...

Hindsight and all that BS, but I was screamin at the TV (Peek will attest) during the final sprint...

Ya got multiple TOs to set up on O. Yeah, I understand the whole "defense on their heels" approach, but do you want someone launchin who hasn't hit a friggin shot all night with nothin but blue in front of him again???

You have shootahs, you have paint presence. Calm the kids down, set up a play, run it & pray...

After the clutch shot by Knight, If I'm Matta, I don't want to see my team runnin down the court and forcin whatever

[peeker643]

'Tis true. Wabo called for it as Craft crossed the timeline. I heard this dicussed a couple weeks back on Thad's radio show. He said they have studied the numbers and the numbers say you score more often without a timeout than with one.

But I agree that a TO with 4 seconds is the play here. Shooter like Diebler who needs to be watched opens the floor for a cutter to the rim, an entry to Sullinger down low as well as, at worst a look at least equal to the one they got from 15 feet and out. Could not have been worse than a frantic shot by a guy who couldn't hit the floor if he dropped the ball on Friday night.

Thad should have set something up for the last shot.

Absolutely...

Hindsight and all that BS, but I was screamin at the TV (Peek will attest) during the final sprint...

Ya got multiple TOs to set up on O. Yeah, I understand the whole "defense on their heels" approach, but do you want someone launchin who hasn't hit a friggin shot all night with nothin but blue in front of him again???

You have shootahs, you have paint presence. Calm the kids down, set up a play, run it & pray...

After the clutch shot by Knight, If I'm Matta, I don't want to see my team runnin down the court and forcin whatever

[waborat]

'Tis true. Wabo called for it as Craft crossed the timeline. I heard this dicussed a couple weeks back on Thad's radio show. He said they have studied the numbers and the numbers say you score more often without a timeout than with one.

But I agree that a TO with 4 seconds is the play here. Shooter like Diebler who needs to be watched opens the floor for a cutter to the rim, an entry to Sullinger down low as well as, at worst a look at least equal to the one they got from 15 feet and out. Could not have been worse than a frantic shot by a guy who couldn't hit the floor if he dropped the ball on Friday night.

These hoop coaches are getting like baseball managers with all their odds 'n stats...

FSU did the exact same thing with a TO left just 10 minutes later vs VCU...

Arizona calls a TO yesterday and they at least got 2 shots off that coulda won it at the end...

Screw the defense settin up, SET your own fuckin guys up

[FUDU]

I agree with you guys, set something up, anything. Basketball is not the game in which you pull out the data bases and try to determine best outcomes, it's the ultimate improv sport, guy with the ball has so many more options and decisions to make compared to how the numbers might impact that same decision in baseball.

Diebler was the WC for such a strategy, he can shoot from anywhere in the gym, even if guarded so you try to get him the ball either on the inbound or immediately there after leaving him with a look toward the middle of the paint (for a cutter or Sulli) or a squared up look at the hoop. After that you prioritize by who can create on their own etc.

IMO anything was better than what they actually did.*

* = reserves the right to say wow what a great call by letting Buford take the shot if the shot actually went in.

[jb]

But the Cavs need Sullinger!!!@$!

Poor take, Lee.

Jared showed up. He was a one man gang inside. Go look at his line again and say something else stupid. Got no help on D and had to leave too often to help vs the dribble drive leaving Jethro open.

The reson for the loss was that there is a dif between a very good college player and an NBA propect. Diebler cound't guard anyone. But mainly Buford and Lighty got completely exposed on both O & D. They did some things off picks, but were worthless off dribble drives. They were outmatched by UK's better athletes. Those two lost the game. Esp Buford and his 2 for 16 clusterfuck.

OTOH, I was really impressed by Craft. Kid showed some cremencus athleticism and was never outclassed even by UK's ballers. very intriguing future for that kid.

[jb]

The older I get, the more I hate this shit...

Gotta find a new pasttime, sumthin like collectin trucker hats

You should see peeker's collection.

[e0y2e3]

But the Cavs need Sullinger!!!@$!

Poor take, Lee.

Jared showed up. He was a one man gang inside. Go look at his line again and say something else stupid. Got no help on D and had to leave too often to help vs the dribble drive leaving Jethro open.

The reson for the loss was that there is a dif between a very good college player and an NBA propect. Diebler cound't guard anyone. But mainly Buford and Lighty got completely exposed on both O & D. They did some things off picks, but were worthless off dribble drives. They were outmatched by UK's better athletes. Those two lost the game. Esp Buford and his 2 for 16 clusterfuck.

OTOH, I was really impressed by Craft. Kid showed some cremencus athleticism and was never outclassed even by UK's ballers. very intriguing future for that kid.

Sullinger played a very average game against not a nary double team.

Watch the game, don't read the line.

And Sullinger is a fine college player, never argued that thus the "THE CAVS" in the post.

[jb]

Not his best game, but not the mollywhomp some like you and Peeker seem to want to make it. Part of the problem is he gets no help inside. Once he stopped trying to finesse it he played better. UK matched up well. As you note, he plays out of position.

He got his looks. He score his points. He got boards when no one else had any presence. He carried the team on O and rebounding. Kid was hardly the reason for the loss.

I don't think he's a stud college center. But He's a very good college player already. Not ready for the Association. And I still give these kids the benefit of doubt when it comes to development, esp the ones who aren't dooshbags and will work. I can't tell you his likely pro trajectory yet. It isn't karl malone, but I don't know it is Dan Fortson either.

[e0y2e3]

Seriously?

Short.... check

Unathletic.... check

Conditioning issues.... check

Only shown a defined post game thus far..... check

Rotation player probably. A guy that should go from the mid to late first round and get a shot. A guy that everyone on this board spent months blowing as a top of the lottery pick? My ass.

[jb]

Seriously?

Short.... check

Unathletic.... check

Conditioning issues.... check

Only shown a defined post game thus far..... check

Rotation player probably. A guy that should go from the mid to late first round and get a shot. A guy that everyone on this board spent months blowing as a top of the lottery pick? My ass.

Too soon to tell where he ends up. Kid doesn't have the jaw dropping ability, to be sure. But I want to see what he develops into before I pass final prospect judgement. I think he plays all 4.

[e0y2e3]

Limited ceiling that hasn't been seen physically since Love.

Love was widely considered a freak in terms of not only on the court intelligence, but boarding and having three point range.

Sullinger is a poor man's Love at best (although Love's box out positioning is unmatched and will possibly not be seen again, something that Sullinger has no chance of replicating). A ceiling that low means eat me as a top of the draft pick.

[peeker643]

Dude knocked down some free throws and got 3 dunks off drive-penetration misses.

Bottom line: He was fucking handled. You can quote me all the boxscore numbers you like. That matchup (and N Carolina's bigs too) were always going to be a nightmare the Buckeyes had to overcome because they lack size and they lack length.

The line below that one is that him getting handled let the athletic and long KY boys defend the perimeter without the double team or digging down on Sully.

I blame Matta for the lack of the timeout as well as not running more motion. Never enough guys slashing and that's something that he should have seen coming. Spending most of the night dropping the ball to Sully and hoping a defender would help and leave a shooter free never really materialized. Not when Lurch was locking him up all night long.

[jb]

21 and 16 man, in a 60 point game. Leading scorer by far. Leading rebounder by far. Only player > 6'5" 200 with any ability at all in the main rotation. But I guess he should have laid down a 30 / 20 line to make everyone happy. The refs were lettting jungle ball go inside and Lil Abner Jethro just ran with it. A natural PF playing center out of position coulnd't overpower him on the blocks given what the refs were allowing.

On a scale of 1 - 10 for that game, I give Sully a 6 or 7 . Not his best game, but he was hardly the goat or even guilty of a poor performance. OTOH, I give Diebler a 4, Lighty a 3 and Buford a negative 6. That's all I'm sayin'.

I blame Matta for the lack of the timeout as well as not running more motion

You know, they ran plenty of motion in half one I thought. Then I think UK just clamped the freak down and better athletes were able to cover lessor athletes. Sometimes that shit just happens.

As for the shot, Craft got the ball at inbound with what, 5 seonds left? If he TO's across the line, there is 2 or 3 ticks left. All you get is a catch n shoot if you execute well. Buford got a really good look. If he had not, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But kid got a wide-assed open spot J. He missed. That's just ball, man. I don't think a TO generates a better look than what Buford had.

[e0y2e3]

6 or 7 against the first post defender he saw all year and you still see potential for an elite NBA player "maybe?"

[peeker643]

I'll agree with a 6 out of 10. But I don't care who was in what position and whether it was fair he had to play against a bigger guy all night nor that the refs weren't calling every bit of contact.

All Americans don't get played even by Mongo. A 6/10 game? Okay... And that's what happened. He was exposed for what he is yet I have to hear people talk about him as a Top 5-8 NBA pick?

As to the TO, Knight's shot went in with 9 seconds on the clock and Buford took his with 2 seconds. Yes, it was a good look for Buford which is also like having the least drunk dude in your group drive ya home from the bachelor party. At least on Friday anyway.

Craft crossed the time line with over 4 seconds on the game clock.

Doesn't matter. I hae no ill will toward Buford and very little in general. They got beat by a more athletic and bigger team. Experience didn't mean shit at the end of the day because they were smaller and because Sully was played even by Alex Karras.

21 and 16 man, in a 60 point game. Leading scorer by far. Leading rebounder by far. Only player > 6'5" 200 with any ability at all in the main rotation. But I guess he should have laid down a 30 / 20 line to make everyone happy. The refs were lettting jungle ball go inside and Lil Abner Jethro just ran with it. A natural PF playing center out of position coulnd't overpower him on the blocks given what the refs were allowing.

On a scale of 1 - 10 for that game, I give Sully a 6 or 7 . Not his best game, but he was hardly the goat or even guilty of a poor performance. OTOH, I give Diebler a 4, Lighty a 3 and Buford a negative 6. That's all I'm sayin'.

I blame Matta for the lack of the timeout as well as not running more motion

You know, they ran plenty of motion in half one I thought. Then I think UK just clamped the freak down and better athletes were able to cover lessor athletes. Sometimes that shit just happens.

As for the shot, Craft got the ball at inbound with what, 5 seonds left? If he TO's across the line, there is 2 or 3 ticks left. All you get is a catch n shoot if you execute well. Buford got a really good look. If he had not, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But kid got a wide-assed open spot J. He missed. That's just ball, man. I don't think a TO generates a better look than what Buford had.

[jb]

6 or 7 against the first post defender he saw all year and you still see potential for an elite NBA player "maybe?"

Let me make one thing perfectly clear: I don't know what his pro potential is right now. I see a kid who had a pretty damn good freshman year who has limitations, but also seems like a hard worker who is not from the TPeezy school of dooshiness. I never said he was an elite prospect right now. I just took exception, and still do, with your casting him as anything in scement right now. Kid is a work in progress and had one hell of a first year. Next year he may get a legit post player around him and we can maybe see what he can do in more space.

I suspend judgement for a while. He's making the right decision coming back.

[furls]

Sullinger's value will be more apparent next year. Let's see if he gets "conditioned" and how he plays when he moves to the 4. Next year Amir Williams should be playing the 5.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketb ... r-williams

That said, I am not really sure that we will really see much of a jump from Sullinger at the 4. He has a really nice game back to the basket 8 feet out, I haven't seen much of a midrange game from him or any real ability to play facing the hoop. If he is going to be worth a damn thing in the NBA those are the skills he will need, right now (from what I have seen) he looks like a guy that is too short to play C, to slow to play the 4 and to unathletic play outside the post. NBA 4's have to have some handle, I haven't seen that either.

All in all, I think JBs grades are pretty much spot on, except Craft grades out at a 9.

[e0y2e3]

6 or 7 against the first post defender he saw all year and you still see potential for an elite NBA player "maybe?"

Let me make one thing perfectly clear: I don't know what his pro potential is right now. I see a kid who had a pretty damn good freshman year who has limitations, but also seems like a hard worker who is not from the TPeezy school of dooshiness. I never said he was an elite prospect right now. I just took exception, and still do, with your casting him as anything in scement right now. Kid is a work in progress and had one hell of a first year. Next year he may get a legit post player around him and we can maybe see what he can do in more space.

I suspend judgement for a while. He's making the right decision coming back.

Why does a guy who supposedly has stud post player potential need someone around him to play in the post to? How many good interior pro prospects have good interior players next to them in the NCAA? How many guys with size did Sullinger even run into this year? The NCAA is small, you're making excuses.

He is very physically limited and will never be an elite prospect, that is my only point.

Fuck, saying that a freshman that is very physically limited should be a mid first round guy is a real huge compliment about his work ethic and shit. You should take that for what it is instead of turning him into your personal anti-douchepeezy campaign slogan, which is what you are doing.

Craig Krenzel worked hard too.

[peeker643]

Hard to give Craft a 9 when he was 0-5 and left a couple balls on the rim while missing an open jumper or two.

That said, I'm already on record saying Craft is going to be the best college and potentially pro player off this year's roster.

Quick, strong, intense. And I'm telling you he's 0-5 the other night because he's looking to get everyone else their shots. He can shoot. Just wasn't supposed to this year.

But they moved him onto Knight when he came in and Knight was 3/10. He also got switched out to Jones a couple times and did a great job there.

Lighty is a 23yr old Bruce Bowens. He'll play defense for you all night and somewhere down the line he'll become an offensive threat from deep. He was Friday what he's always been. He just wasn't getting unobstucted looks like he was against Mason.

Sullinger's value will be more apparent next year. Let's see if he gets "conditioned" and how he plays when he moves to the 4. Next year Amir Williams should be playing the 5.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketb ... r-williams

That said, I am not really sure that we will really see much of a jump from Sullinger at the 4. He has a really nice game back to the basket 8 feet out, I haven't seen much of a midrange game from him or any real ability to play facing the hoop. If he is going to be worth a damn thing in the NBA those are the skills he will need, right now (from what I have seen) he looks like a guy that is too short to play C, to slow to play the 4 and to unathletic play outside the post. NBA 4's have to have some handle, I haven't seen that either.

All in all, I think JBs grades are pretty much spot on, except Craft grades out at a 9.

[furls]

He doesn't have to score, or shoot well. You said it yourself, that is not his job. He is a force all over the floor and he is present everywhere.

[peeker643]

He doesn't have to score, or shoot well. You said it yourself, that is not his job. He is a force all over the floor and he is present everywhere.

Agree with that for the most part. But dude blew by Knight a couple times and looked tentative at the rim. He doesn't have to score but if he has the opportunity he has to cash it in.

Look, I think he averages 15 ppg in his junior and sr seasons. I'm just saying his performance, as good as he was Friday night, would have been better had he finished a couple drives or knocked a shot.

I love the guy.

[FUDU]

I agree with Lee about Sulli's game v. UK. Outside of killing the boards his production seemed to be very unspectacular to the point of if you didn't know he was the stud freshman Sulli you never would have guessed it.

Imo the few good plays he made were heavily outweighed by the 2 or 3 really bad almost clumay plays he made when attacking the hoop. What did he have 3 TOs on 4 huge possessions?

[leadpipe]

Not sure what another year does for Sully's pro potential.

You're athletic. Or you're not.

In today's NBA it's awful hard to find an impact player who isn't near the top of the charts as an athlete.

You can find numerous guys who are marginal athletes that made an impact in college and disappeared in the NBA.

He's in Tyler Hansbourough's category in this regard, like it or not.

[danwismar]

As for the shot, Craft got the ball at inbound with what, 5 seconds left? If he TO's across the line, there is 2 or 3 ticks left. All you get is a catch n shoot if you execute well. Buford got a really good look. If he had not, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But kid got a wide-assed open spot J. He missed. That's just ball, man. I don't think a TO generates a better look than what Buford had.

This.

---

Agree with Sully's limitations as a pro prospect, especially as a Top 5-7 pick. No way right now. Maybe never. Still, first-team All-America as a true freshman says the kid is a baller at the college level, and he'll get better. But he doesn't project to either an ideal 4 or 5 in the NBA, from what I've seen.