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OSU and being a homer

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OSU and being a homer

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:53 pm

Coz this is not directed at you, nor directed at anybody in a derogatory way.
I do feel it needs its own thread based on our recent back n forth.

Look I love OSU as much as the next guy, I love JT too. What I like most about JT is his balance. You hear that guys like Saban and Myer take losing so personal and it affects them so deep it is supposedly unprecedented. As if other HMFIC don't, hogwash IMO. JT hates losing as much as they do, but JT has unprecedented balance in his life and he is in more control of that balance. I would not want to replace JT with a lateral type move by any means, ever. I would only ever replace him with a BETTER coach. JT has an ability to think beyond these other top coaches IMO (except at times when calling plays on O). He takes his ability to think outside the game and that is big reason for his overall rock solid stability in everything he does. That is why he always says the right things.

However it does not put JT above criticism, and every little piece of criticism of JT is not calling for his head. JT has his way of running a team, his approach, we all know it as JT ball. It is successful. But it doesn't mean he cannot deviate from that at times when appropriate and it doesn't mean that at times his approach cannot come back to bite him in the ass. It, his approach, works well way more often than it doesn't. IE the Rose Bowl 2010. But his approach puts games at risk when he has a talent advantage that suggests a W should not be at risk. Most recent IE the Iowa game 2009.

Making a reference as "JT rearing his ugly head" is a reference to his often times lack of ability to use his best players in the best way possible. It is not a calling for his head necessarily. It is not an off base critique, and we can go back for 5 years digging up evidence of it, not my plan nor is it worth to rehash. He plays things so close that one poor play call can often change momentum in the game putting an otherwise very likely W into jeopardy. In college ball that is not something a team can afford to do if it has its eyes on a Rose Bowl or NC.

My point in this post isn't about being right or wrong about a specific game but about taking the criticism to heart or letting the fun of being an OSU fan blur what is legit criticism, criticism that is given from that same side of the track homerism. It is OK to be a homer, I am, we all are a lot (especially with this era of OSU football). All I ask is to recognize where the frustration comes from and realize it is usually b/c this program can be even better with the the talent JT brings in and his ability to be a great coach in many instances.
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby furls » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:29 pm

I get what you are saying.

IMO there is no better coach for OSU than JT. He is a guy that we, as fans, can be proud of. Sometimes he gets too conservative and sometimes I find myself screaming for him to use the short pass as a form of the running game, but make no mistake about it, I am proud to have him as the coach of my team. He is "anti-shady," he is trustworthy, he is everything that exemplifies midwestern values and OSU football. His conservative play call may cost us a game from time to time, but that is a small price to pay for a team that is competitive year in and year out without having to worry about coach inspired scandal. He is articulate and vanilla, which suits my tastes much more than Saban, Meyer, Leach, Leavitt, and Carroll. The only coach I have the same admiration for is Joe Paterno, that is it.
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby JCoz » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:37 pm

FUDU,

So your critical points are that JT is too conservative for a coach with goals of Rose bowls and NC's, a poor offensive play caller, and someone who is not usually getting the most out of his players....


Got it. Remember that next season.
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:38 pm

FUDU wrote:He plays things so close that one poor play call can often change momentum in the game putting an otherwise very likely W into jeopardy. In college ball that is not something a team can afford to do if it has its eyes on a Rose Bowl or NC.


This is where I can't help but find a big, ole fail for the rationale that leads to the post.

It's bullshit Donny.

How can you say a team can't afford to play Tressel-ball if a NC or Rose Bowl is the goal when they've won the NC and the Rose Bowl playing Tressel-ball?

I understand you think he's too conservative sometimes. He is. But you can't tell me that it's going to cost him the opportunity to win something that he's already won.
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby JCoz » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:40 pm

Peeker643 wrote:
FUDU wrote:He plays things so close that one poor play call can often change momentum in the game putting an otherwise very likely W into jeopardy. In college ball that is not something a team can afford to do if it has its eyes on a Rose Bowl or NC.


This is where I can't help but find a big, ole fail for the rationale that leads to the post.

It's bullshit Donny.

How can you say a team can't afford to play Tressel-ball if a NC or Rose Bowl is the goal when they've won the NC and the Rose Bowl playing Tressel-ball?

I understand you think he's too conservative sometimes. He is. But you can't tell me that it's going to cost him the opportunity to win something that he's already won.


Shhh. Your being a homer. :bunny:
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:42 pm

I forgot to add, JCoz we get into this homer v critic role from time to time, don't read me as bitching that you are some sort of unbearable homer or clueless poster that completely bases everything from a homer stand point. I enjoy plenty of what you post in this forum about OSU. You offer good takes and reads about stuff about OSU I don't follow or have time to get involved with.

I just see you as a knowledgeable enough fan to NOT be a homer in your perspective about JT.

Furls I agree with your points on JT. IMO there is such a thing as being a homer and being a "homer".
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby JCoz » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:51 pm

FUDU wrote:I forgot to add, JCoz we get into this homer v critic role from time to time, don't read me as bitching that you are some sort of unbearable homer or clueless poster that completely bases everything from a homer stand point. I enjoy plenty of what you post in this forum about OSU. You offer good takes and reads about stuff about OSU I don't follow or have time to get involved with.

I just see you as a knowledgeable enough fan to NOT be a homer in your perspective about JT.

Furls I agree with your points on JT. IMO there is such a thing as being a homer and being a "homer".


I can appreciate that, and thanks for clarifying. I sometimes rise to the defense of OSU and have an admittedly sensitive streak when it comes certain ways of delivering that criticism that can sometimes be on the borders of rationality. I get that.

When it comes to JT I have a very global view of what he does. I think as with any coach, you get the good with the bad, and you make a decision as to whether or not you find it acceptable. Getting caught up in the details when you already know the score is a waste of time IMO. Everyone knows what they are getting in JT by now. He has shown what he does when he doesn't trust his players, particularly his QB, and when he does. Our offense can be as bad as 2003 or as good as 2006.
Last edited by JCoz on Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:51 pm

JCoz wrote:FUDU,

So your critical points are that JT is too conservative for a coach with goals of Rose bowls and NC's, a poor offensive play caller, and someone who is not usually getting the most out of his players....


Got it. Remember that next season.
You're still missing the point, it is not hard. His style works, he proved it and continues to, however it doesn't mean his style is 100% the best call on every play or every drive.

You to Peeks.

You both know what I am saying, but for some reason are not willing to acknowledge it in public where it might come across that you are god forbid not bowing down before the altar of JT.

The 4Q drive in the Iowa game I posted (in the title game thread) is a perfect example. Yes our team is built to be a ball control team that runs well. Yes they execute that plan well to very well at times. However it doesn't mean that running the ball 7-8 straight plays with a RB, in situations in which you can use a uber talent like TP, is the best call. Execution withstanding or not.

Those are the spots JT deserves critique. It doesn't mean he has to throw out his approach all together either.

..and spare me the "remember it next year" stuff as if I am going to blindly sing his praises next season if we are 12-0 and attempting 8 passes a game.

Peek, one loss can mean no Rose Bowl or no NC. So on those critical spots yes JT needs to up his game at times. Sure it worked in the Rose Bowl, as a most recent memory to bank on, but it is disingenuous to say it has not also been detrimental at times in the past 3-4 seasons as well.

Furls gets exactly what I am saying, not sure why it is so hard for either of you two.

Stop taking the JT criticism as digs on your personalities.
Last edited by FUDU on Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:54 pm

JCoz wrote:
FUDU wrote:I forgot to add, JCoz we get into this homer v critic role from time to time, don't read me as bitching that you are some sort of unbearable homer or clueless poster that completely bases everything from a homer stand point. I enjoy plenty of what you post in this forum about OSU. You offer good takes and reads about stuff about OSU I don't follow or have time to get involved with.

I just see you as a knowledgeable enough fan to NOT be a homer in your perspective about JT.

Furls I agree with your points on JT. IMO there is such a thing as being a homer and being a "homer".


I can appreciate that, and thanks for clarifying. I sometimes rise to the defense of OSU and have an admittedly sensitive streak when it comes to how people delivery criticism that can sometimes be on the borders or rationality. I get that.

When it comes to JT I have a very global view of what he does. I think as with any coach, you get the good with the bad, and you make a decision as to whether or not you find it acceptable. Getting caught up in the details when you already know the score is a waste of time IMO. Everyone knows what they are getting in JT by now. He has shown what he does when he doesn't trust his players, particularly his QB, and when he does. Our offense can be as bad as 2003 or as good as 2006.

OK first we seem to be having a conversation with one of us in Hawaii and the other in NY, lag time and all.

Didn't see your post above as I was typing my other one.

I know we all know what we get with JT, I still see an opportunity for a better JT, and he is too smart not to see it nor make the jump IMO. I am not asking for one giant step for mankind, just one step for us, or at least me. Please. I mean fine call me greedy, but we were/are so close to being a championship dynasty it is ridiculous.

ETA: for IE, the TP INT in the USC game, I was livid, not with JT, I liked that call, but with TP and his idiocy. Same with a pass or 8 in the Purdue game, mostly on TP.
Last edited by FUDU on Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby JCoz » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:57 pm

FUDU wrote:
..and spare me the "remember it next year" stuff as if I am going to blindly sing his praises next season if we are 12-0 and attempting 8 passes a game.

.


First of all, if we go 12-0 and you are bitching about how many times a game we throw it, you will be an idiot, plain and simple.

Second, if you think we are going to be passing the ball 8 times a game next season, you simply have not been paying attention.

Prepare to be pleasantly surprised.

Don't forget to see my other post, I did respond to what you said earlier.
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:00 pm

JCoz wrote:
FUDU wrote:
..and spare me the "remember it next year" stuff as if I am going to blindly sing his praises next season if we are 12-0 and attempting 8 passes a game.

.


First of all, if we go 12-0 and you are bitching about how many times a game we throw it, you will be an idiot, plain and simple.

Second, if you think we are going to be passing the ball 8 times a game next season, you simply have not been paying attention.

Prepare to be pleasantly surprised.

Don't forget to see my other post, I did respond to what you said earlier.
Trust me I am anticipating it next season. Which goes hand in hand with my over all point, I certainly do not want to see JT holding back next season. If he does and we're 12-0 obviously great, but it still raises some questions if the team has talent that suggests other approaches at times.
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:04 pm

FUDU wrote:
JCoz wrote:FUDU,

So your critical points are that JT is too conservative for a coach with goals of Rose bowls and NC's, a poor offensive play caller, and someone who is not usually getting the most out of his players....


Got it. Remember that next season.
You're still missing the point, it is not hard. His style works, he proved it and continues to, however it doesn't mean his style is 100% the best call on every play or every drive.

You to Peeks.

You both know what I am saying, but for some reason are not willing to acknowledge it in public where it might come across that you are god forbid not bowing down before the altar of JT.

The 4Q drive in the Iowa game I posted (in the title game thread) is a perfect example. Yes our team is built to be a ball control team that runs well. Yes they execute that plan well to very well at times. However it doesn't mean that running the ball 7-8 straight plays with a RB, in situations in which you can use a uber talent like TP, is the best call. Execution withstanding or not.

Those are the spots JT deserves critique. It doesn't mean he has to throw out his approach all together either.

..and spare me the "remember it next year" stuff as if I am going to blindly sing his praises next season if we are 12-0 and attempting 8 passes a game.

Peek, one loss can mean no Rose Bowl or no NC. So on those critical spots yes JT needs to up his game at times. Sure it worked in the Rose Bowl, as a most recent memory to bank on, but it is disingenuous to say it has not also been detrimental at times in the past 3-4 seasons as well.

Furls gets exactly what I am saying, not sure why it is so hard for either of you two.

Stop taking the JT criticism as digs on your personalities.


How the fuck does criticizing JT affect my personality?

Did you hit your head on a fall while shoveling? ;-) ;) :wink:

Jesus Don, homer vs. "homer", you can't win NC or Rose Bowls with that style when he's done both and now your wake & bake-like criticism of JT is a dig on my personality? And my personality is what again?

Maybe you have some really insightful things to share with me here bro, but between the brain and the post there seem to be some gaps.

Here's the difference as I see it:

We both agree he is too conservative occasionally.

I'm okay with that win, lose or tie.

You love it just as much as me when they win or tie and your balls hit the floor if they lose that way.

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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:14 pm

A game in hand should not be lost b/c a coach takes the game out of the hands of his players.

You can agree with that I am sure.

ETA: personality = board persona was my intention with the wording.

Once an asshole always an asshole, aint no changing that.

:poke

:just teasing

:not tasing

:as not to be misunderstood
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby mattvan1 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:36 pm

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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:41 pm

FUDU wrote:A game in hand should not be lost b/c a coach takes the game out of the hands of his players.

You can agree with that I am sure.

ETA: personality = board persona was my intention with the wording.

Once an asshole always an asshole, aint no changing that.

:poke

:just teasing

:not tasing

:as not to be misunderstood


He's 4-3 in BCS Bowls, 8-1 against UM and has a national title with OSU to go with 4 others at a lower level. He's 1-0 in the Rose Bowl and his program has been about as clean as a Div1 program can be.

I'm okay with his process and his results Donny. I just don't see his conservative approach as having left a great number of wins, BCS appearances and titles on the table. The preparation and effort in the UF and LSU games was disappointing and I admit that.

And does that mean I don't occasionally shake my head at some specific play calls or game plans? No. I do. Just like you. It's just that I'm fine with the totality of his results.

That's all.
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby JCoz » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:44 pm

FUDU wrote:A game in hand should not be lost b/c a coach takes the game out of the hands of his players.

You can agree with that I am sure.

ETA: personality = board persona was my intention with the wording.

Once an asshole always an asshole, aint no changing that.

:poke

:just teasing

:not tasing

:as not to be misunderstood


What you might never fully understand is how many games the guy has WON by "taking it out of the OFFENSIVE players hands" so to speak.....

There is a reason the guy has 1 NC, 4 BCS wins, and six top 5 finishes in 9 years coaching at Ohio State.

And while you may disagree with his methods in doing so, I seriously doubt that he did it by getting less out of more, bottom line.
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:21 pm

I just want to see JT sweep the leg more often.
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Re: OSU and being a homer

Unread postby angrybeaver » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:34 am

JCoz wrote:
FUDU wrote:A game in hand should not be lost b/c a coach takes the game out of the hands of his players.

You can agree with that I am sure.

ETA: personality = board persona was my intention with the wording.

Once an asshole always an asshole, aint no changing that.

:poke

:just teasing

:not tasing

:as not to be misunderstood


What you might never fully understand is how many games the guy has WON by "taking it out of the OFFENSIVE players hands" so to speak.....

There is a reason the guy has 1 NC, 4 BCS wins, and six top 5 finishes in 9 years coaching at Ohio State.

And while you may disagree with his methods in doing so, I seriously doubt that he did it by getting less out of more, bottom line.


Totally agreed. I used this stance leading up to the Rose Bowl when a lot of people said the "gambler (in that case, Chip Kelly)" always triumphs over the "conservative (JT)." Well I called total bull... prime example being Oregon's win over Arizona. Arizona runs the ball on that third down, best case they get the first down, are in field goal range, can essentially seal the game. Worst case they don't get it, punt, pin Oregon deep and they have to drive the length of the field without the momentum swing coming from the interception. Of course this example doesn't point at all to JT in particular, and really not so sure it ties into the overall aim of this thread, but just figured it'd be as good a place as any to throw it out there. :salute:
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