Text Size

Cleveland Indians & MLB

It better be Brantley.

Talk Tribe, talk baseball in this forum.

Moderators: peeker643, swerb, pup, paulcousineau

It better be Brantley.

Unread postby Toxicadam » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:49 am

I am starting to get nervous about this PTBNL pick. We have a superior athlete in Brantley or an " underrated, gritty" utility guy in Taylor Green as our choices.

Brantley is a pure contact dream. Only 18 strikeouts (41 BB) in 365 PA at AA this year. That's only once every 20 PA. He has a career .400 OBP in the minors and some speed with 35 SB this season (80% success rate).

He is only 21!

I guess there is more power potential with Green, but standing in at less than 5 '10 and 180lbs .. He reminds more more of a Pedroia than a Troy Glaus. Green recently took second place in the HR hitting derby at his A+ all-star game. With guys like Mills, La Porta, Hodges, Weglarz .. I don't think this franchise needs to overlook athletic, contact hitters like Brantley. With Brantley's frame .. there's no saying he can't hit for more power down the road.
User avatar
Toxicadam
 
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:53 am

Unread postby Toxicadam » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:52 am

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/news/a ... p&c_id=mil

There is an article on Taylor Green. Extolling his "intangibles" and hustle.

blah
User avatar
Toxicadam
 
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:53 am

Unread postby onlyindreams » Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:09 pm

If I knew Green could play 2B, he'd be a much more enticing option. He seems to be a good hitter but doesn't quite have the power you want at 3B. The question with Brantley is injuries. Then you have Lucroy who seems to be solid but we just got a player at the same position and level. I'm glad I don't have to choose.
onlyindreams
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:13 pm
Favorite Player: Browns Backup QB
Least Favorite Player: Browns Starting QB

Unread postby Duane Kuiper » Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:13 pm

With Grady, Weglarz, LaPorta, Francisco and Crowe why would they need another OF?

A poor defensive one at that.
Duane Kuiper
 
Posts: 1666
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:42 pm
Location: Ohio

Unread postby Steve Buffum » Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:15 pm

Duane Kuiper wrote:With Grady, Weglarz, LaPorta, Francisco and Crowe why would they need another OF?

A poor defensive one at that.


Yeah, that's true. It's a valid point.

I wonder, though: were we saying the same thing about Francisco, Choo, Gutierrez, Snyder, Barton, and all the other guys we've decided are mooks now?
User avatar
Steve Buffum
Prose Flayer
 
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:32 am
Location: Austin TX
Favorite Player: Withheld
Least Favorite Player: David Huff

Unread postby hornet84 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:29 pm

Duane Kuiper wrote:With Grady, Weglarz, LaPorta, Francisco and Crowe why would they need another OF?

A poor defensive one at that.


Grady is the only one on that list who is a proven commodity on that list. We need to take the best player on the list regardless of position.
User avatar
hornet84
Big Mon
 
Posts: 1218
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:30 pm
Location: Twinsburg, OH
Favorite Player: The Big Show
Least Favorite Player: Bud Selig

Unread postby Toxicadam » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:40 pm

Duane Kuiper wrote:With Grady, Weglarz, LaPorta, Francisco and Crowe why would they need another OF?

A poor defensive one at that.



It's the same kind of thinking that has given us so many poor draft choices.
User avatar
Toxicadam
 
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:53 am

Unread postby TribeTalk01 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:48 pm

Lucroy is he's on the list like Pluto says is the best player and you have to take the best player regardless of need
TribeTalk01
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:08 pm

Re: It better be Brantley.

Unread postby TitoFrancona » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:10 pm

Toxicadam wrote:I am starting to get nervous about this PTBNL pick. We have a superior athlete in Brantley or an " underrated, gritty" utility guy in Taylor Green as our choices.

Brantley is a pure contact dream. Only 18 strikeouts (41 BB) in 365 PA at AA this year. That's only once every 20 PA. He has a career .400 OBP in the minors and some speed with 35 SB this season (80% success rate).

He is only 21!

I guess there is more power potential with Green, but standing in at less than 5 '10 and 180lbs .. He reminds more more of a Pedroia than a Troy Glaus. Green recently took second place in the HR hitting derby at his A+ all-star game. With guys like Mills, La Porta, Hodges, Weglarz .. I don't think this franchise needs to overlook athletic, contact hitters like Brantley. With Brantley's frame .. there's no saying he can't hit for more power down the road.


First off, from every indication it's a choice of 4 players and if Lucroy is (as rumored) one of them, Brantely and Green won't even be considerations, imo..

Secondly, you keep saying Brantley is 21 as though Green is old. The fact is, Green is only 6 months older than Brantley. And yes Green has more power than Brantley. As far as his size goes, why is that a factor? It's not as though anybody is projecting him to hit 25 HRs per.

But the one point that so many of you seem to be missing is that Green draws as many walks as Brantely (actually more). He's also an OBP machine. He has 57 walks this season with 57 Ks. And it's been pointed out (although I can't verify) that he plays in an extreme pitcher's league.

What is really at question here is whether Green can play 2nd base - which I believe was his natural position before they moved him to 3rd. They are said to have done that because they are thin at that position. Supposedly Gamul is a butcher at 3rd and will eventually be moved to 1st or OF.

But there's also the question of whether Brantley is a ML caliber OF'er. He's reported to have a weak arm so RF is out of the question and I have seen reports that say he's a below average CF'er which may limit him to LF.

We have Crowe who looks to be our future leadoff hitter. We have LaPorta who is going to be given a starting OF position sometime in 2009. We have Weglarz who is also a corner OF'er. Not to mention we have Brown who has played OF and could be moved from 1st.

We also have Snyder who while it may be too little too late appears to be lighting it up in Buffalo of late. The fact is that if Snyder ever lived up to his potential, he could be better than them all (sans Grady, of course). Although I have serious doubts he's going to do it.

So imo Brantley is not the clear cut choice over Green. In fact, at this point, between the 2, I think I take Green.
TitoFrancona
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: Sacramento, Ca
Favorite Player: Tito Francona
Least Favorite Player: Jim Thome

Unread postby TCBinaflash » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:45 pm

I for one am glad this is a decision I don't have to make. But I whole heartedly look forward to criticizing whichever way the FO goes on this.
User avatar
TCBinaflash
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:04 am
Location: Chagrin Falls
Favorite Player: Michael Bourn
Least Favorite Player: Ron Karkovice

Re: It better be Brantley.

Unread postby Toxicadam » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:47 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
First off, from every indication it's a choice of 4 players and if Lucroy is (as rumored) one of them, Brantely and Green won't even be considerations, imo..

Secondly, you keep saying Brantley is 21 as though Green is old. The fact is, Green is only 6 months older than Brantley. And yes Green has more power than Brantley. As far as his size goes, why is that a factor? It's not as though anybody is projecting him to hit 25 HRs per.



But Brantley is putting up those numbers at a level higher than Green. That's a HUGE difference when comparing ages.

So imo Brantley is not the clear cut choice over Green. In fact, at this point, between the 2, I think I take Green.


That's cool.
User avatar
Toxicadam
 
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:53 am

Unread postby Prosecutor » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:55 pm

I don't think you eliminate Brantley just because he's a weak-armed outfielder and we think we have left field covered between Crowe and LaPorta.

If I can get a guy with a .400 OBP or close to it who has speed, then I'm going to find a spot for him, even if it's right field. I understand that occasionally a runner is going to take an extra base on Brantley that he wouldn't take on Gutierrez, for example. But I don't care.

A right fielder with great speed is going to catch balls that would drop in against slower outfielders. A right fielder with a rocket arm but pedestrian footspeed (like Choo) may save a base now and then with his arm, but he'll give up doubles in the gap and bloop singles on balls that a speedster like Brantley will catch. Defensively, it's a wash, or possibly an advantage to the guy with speed because he turns hits into outs, whereas the guy with the big arm just takes away bases.

I wouldn't mind having Crowe, Brantley, and Sizemore hitting 1-2-3 in the order. We might have the weakest armed outfield in history, but you'd practically have to hit a line drive off the wall to get anything to drop in. And the runs that outfield would produce would more than offset any extra bases given up by weak arms.

So who's on first? LaPorta? Mills? Martinez? If Hafner is toast one of them could DH. That would be nice to know before we have to pick.

I'm not pimping Brantley, I'm just saying not to eliminate him because we have Crowe and LaPorta in left and Brantley's arm is supposedly too weak to even consider him in right. I'll take that bat and that speed and live with the arm before I'll settle for a .240 hitter that can throw it through a wall.
Prosecutor
Plutonian Outliers
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 11:59 am

Unread postby SalMyers » Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:25 pm

Brantley is the guy.
User avatar
SalMyers
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:46 am

Unread postby Duane Kuiper » Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:51 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I don't think you eliminate Brantley just because he's a weak-armed outfielder and we think we have left field covered between Crowe and LaPorta.

If I can get a guy with a .400 OBP or close to it who has speed, then I'm going to find a spot for him, even if it's right field. I understand that occasionally a runner is going to take an extra base on Brantley that he wouldn't take on Gutierrez, for example. But I don't care.

A right fielder with great speed is going to catch balls that would drop in against slower outfielders. A right fielder with a rocket arm but pedestrian footspeed (like Choo) may save a base now and then with his arm, but he'll give up doubles in the gap and bloop singles on balls that a speedster like Brantley will catch. Defensively, it's a wash, or possibly an advantage to the guy with speed because he turns hits into outs, whereas the guy with the big arm just takes away bases.

I wouldn't mind having Crowe, Brantley, and Sizemore hitting 1-2-3 in the order. We might have the weakest armed outfield in history, but you'd practically have to hit a line drive off the wall to get anything to drop in. And the runs that outfield would produce would more than offset any extra bases given up by weak arms.

So who's on first? LaPorta? Mills? Martinez? If Hafner is toast one of them could DH. That would be nice to know before we have to pick.

I'm not pimping Brantley, I'm just saying not to eliminate him because we have Crowe and LaPorta in left and Brantley's arm is supposedly too weak to even consider him in right. I'll take that bat and that speed and live with the arm before I'll settle for a .240 hitter that can throw it through a wall.

Brantley not only has a weak arm. His route to balls has been called into question. So if the reports are correct, then he isn't any better than Choo in the OF, who I consider slightly below average on catching the ball.

Choo is far better than a .240 hitter. He hit .299 in the minors. He hit .295 in Cle in 2006. He is playing at less than 100% right now.
Duane Kuiper
 
Posts: 1666
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:42 pm
Location: Ohio

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:49 pm

Duane Kuiper wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I don't think you eliminate Brantley just because he's a weak-armed outfielder and we think we have left field covered between Crowe and LaPorta.

If I can get a guy with a .400 OBP or close to it who has speed, then I'm going to find a spot for him, even if it's right field. I understand that occasionally a runner is going to take an extra base on Brantley that he wouldn't take on Gutierrez, for example. But I don't care.

A right fielder with great speed is going to catch balls that would drop in against slower outfielders. A right fielder with a rocket arm but pedestrian footspeed (like Choo) may save a base now and then with his arm, but he'll give up doubles in the gap and bloop singles on balls that a speedster like Brantley will catch. Defensively, it's a wash, or possibly an advantage to the guy with speed because he turns hits into outs, whereas the guy with the big arm just takes away bases.

I wouldn't mind having Crowe, Brantley, and Sizemore hitting 1-2-3 in the order. We might have the weakest armed outfield in history, but you'd practically have to hit a line drive off the wall to get anything to drop in. And the runs that outfield would produce would more than offset any extra bases given up by weak arms.

So who's on first? LaPorta? Mills? Martinez? If Hafner is toast one of them could DH. That would be nice to know before we have to pick.

I'm not pimping Brantley, I'm just saying not to eliminate him because we have Crowe and LaPorta in left and Brantley's arm is supposedly too weak to even consider him in right. I'll take that bat and that speed and live with the arm before I'll settle for a .240 hitter that can throw it through a wall.

Brantley not only has a weak arm. His route to balls has been called into question. So if the reports are correct, then he isn't any better than Choo in the OF, who I consider slightly below average on catching the ball.

Choo is far better than a .240 hitter. He hit .299 in the minors. He hit .295 in Cle in 2006. He is playing at less than 100% right now.


If Choo is a starting corner outfielder for your team, you aren't good. He's a platoon player, he's not going to hit for the power you'd like, he's not a good defender, and .290 in the minors isn't going to translate to .290 here. If you are looking for a .260 hitter with below average power for the position than fine, but these guys aren't hard to find.

Again, it should be a big red light when the tool they refer to almost exclusively is the arm. The reason is two-fold, 1. he has a good arm and 2. the other four tools aren't great shakes.

Also, if we want to critique oufield defense, its Francisco that drifts to every ball, doesn't get to the fence first and does a great Lonny "skates" Smith impersonation most nights out there. Obviously, is he continues to hit as he has there is a place for him, but you can't turn up you nose to someone you heard might not be good out there, when we have guys here that aren't either.

To the point of the thread, it is C-L-E-A-R that you take the best player regardless of position. In these circumstances, EVERY TIME you take the best talent. They aren't trying to find a missing piece, they are trying to find a young guy that can P-L-A-Y.
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6613
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Unread postby Prosecutor » Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:49 pm

Choo is far better than a .240 hitter. He hit .299 in the minors. He hit .295 in Cle in 2006. He is playing at less than 100% right now.

That was only 146 at-bats, probably all against right-handed pitching. I don't trust the stats put up by players in their initial exposure to the bigs. It usually takes pitchers a while to find the holes in their swings.

Garko hit .289 last year and .290 the second half of 2006. Is he a .290 hitter, or the guy who has floundered around this year?

Choo is almost helpless against left-handed pitching and has shown little against righties this year. I can't see him as our regular right fielder when we're ready to contend.

He certainly won't be a factor in the decision as to which player we pick from the Brewers.
Prosecutor
Plutonian Outliers
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 11:59 am

Unread postby noles1 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:41 pm

Choo's is average at best (would be a perfect Pittsburgh Pirate) plus he's gone in a couple years. (Korean army service) He is not in the Tribe's plans for the future and shouldn't be.
User avatar
noles1
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:32 pm
Location: Clarion, PA
Favorite Player: Jason Kipnis
Least Favorite Player: Mark May's Parents

Unread postby Rocky55 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:34 pm

I'm likin' hearing all of the Brantley supporters.

Like the idea of Brantley, Crowe, and Grady batting 1-2-3. Was thinking the same thing...that's a hellacious top of the order.

Brantley's batting stats remind me of no one more than Mr. Rodney Carew. Around .400 in OBP and SP, low .800 OPS, speed, contact, ideal top of the order guy.

If we're worried about fielding position, Carew played 1B or DH exclusively from age 30 on. And no, I'm not comparing Brantley to Carew himself or predicting that he'll end up in the HOF with 3000 hits. Just sayin' that Brantley is a similar style of hitter.

Has anyone heard rumors of who the fourth guy on the list is???
Rocky55
 
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:47 pm

Unread postby ArtGold » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:38 am

I think you guys are getting too excited about Brantley. The lack of power is of concern to me, and by that I'm mostly referring to his overall extra base rate, not his HRs.

Still would pick Lucroy if a choice, Brantley over Green I can probably agree with at this point though.
ArtGold
 
Posts: 1182
Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: Sacramento, Ca

Unread postby OldDawg » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:10 am

Throw the numbers and arguments you guys are making right out the door. You guys are way over-thinking this thing. There are only two questions that need to be asked in making this decision:

1) Is the player a grinder?
2) Does he respect the game?
"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill
User avatar
OldDawg
 
Posts: 3883
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:05 pm
Favorite Player: Mark Price
Least Favorite Player: LePunk Jims

Unread postby noles1 » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:36 am

OldDawg wrote:Throw the numbers and arguments you guys are making right out the door. You guys are way over-thinking this thing. There are only two questions that need to be asked in making this decision:

1) Is the player a grinder?
2) Does he respect the game?


I hear ya. So what number do you think that Green will take in Akron?
User avatar
noles1
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:32 pm
Location: Clarion, PA
Favorite Player: Jason Kipnis
Least Favorite Player: Mark May's Parents

Unread postby Duane Kuiper » Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:19 pm

ArtGold wrote:I think you guys are getting too excited about Brantley. The lack of power is of concern to me, and by that I'm mostly referring to his overall extra base rate, not his HRs.

85 of his 105 hits are singles.
Duane Kuiper
 
Posts: 1666
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:42 pm
Location: Ohio

Unread postby Mcreek » Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:14 pm

Duane Kuiper wrote:
ArtGold wrote:I think you guys are getting too excited about Brantley. The lack of power is of concern to me, and by that I'm mostly referring to his overall extra base rate, not his HRs.

85 of his 105 hits are singles.


Sounds alot like , well, Duane Kuiper :eek :shock:
" No big stars on the team is by design. "We can't afford to have the inefficiencies, even for a great talent. We need to function as efficiently as possible in our clubhouse, and that means guys have to know what it means to be a good teammate. We don't want to waste the energy on dealing with all those distractions. Besides, we value character over talent here in Cleveland---Mark Shapiro
User avatar
Mcreek
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:57 pm
Location: Venice, Florida

Unread postby TitoFrancona » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:58 pm

Mcreek wrote:
Duane Kuiper wrote:
ArtGold wrote:I think you guys are getting too excited about Brantley. The lack of power is of concern to me, and by that I'm mostly referring to his overall extra base rate, not his HRs.

85 of his 105 hits are singles.


Sounds alot like , well, Duane Kuiper :eek :shock:


Nice mcreek.

I agree though, there are a few serious red flags with Brantley: His lack of power, his supposed weak arm and OF play which seems to limit him to LF in the majors. And while I haven't seen him play, I have read from a couple sources that while he has good speed, it's not what one would consider blazing speed, which means he may not be a guy who steals 40+ bases a year.
TitoFrancona
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: Sacramento, Ca
Favorite Player: Tito Francona
Least Favorite Player: Jim Thome

Unread postby nwizzle » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:54 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:I have read from a couple sources that while he has good speed, it's not what one would consider blazing speed, which means he may not be a guy who steals 40+ bases a year.


If this is the case then what is the upside to Brantley that we don't get from Green? Brantley's calling card I thought was good speed. Sounds to me like he's just another Crowe look alike.

That being said though, Green isn't really performing exceptionally well at High-A ball. Sure he could progress a little but I really don't see why the Indians FO would pull the trigger on a relative unknown.

To be honest both Green and Brantley have some serious red flags. I can't help but feel like the Tribe got ripped off in the trade since this was supposed to be the second big-upside guy that they got. Unless one of the other two unnamed players has a better track record or some better tools I think you can chalk this up as another FO mistake.
User avatar
nwizzle
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:51 pm

Unread postby Exit_Stage_Left » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:42 am

If Lucroy is an option, you have to take him. He plays at a premium position and shows the most upside of any of these guys. He is the best talent available, if he is available. And besides, reports hint at Santana's desire to return to third base. You can never have to many catchers.
Exit_Stage_Left
 
Posts: 597
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:04 am
Location: North Jackson, Ohio
Favorite Player: Fausto Carmona
Least Favorite Player: Gary Sheffield

Unread postby Mcreek » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:56 am

I agree though, there are a few serious red flags with Brantley: His lack of power, his supposed weak arm and OF play which seems to limit him to LF in the majors. .


So,

The offensive comparison seems to be comparable with former Tribe player Duan Kuiper in that Brantley is a singles hitter with zilch power, defensively he sounds like another former Tribe speedster in Miguel Dilone whose great speed was of no use in leftfield like this Brantley :eek :shock:

From the 2008 BA Handbook:

The problem for Brantley is that he doesn't profile well at any position , His plus speed doesn't translate well to his outfield play. He often gets bad breaks on balls and has a below average arm. He does handle himself well around the bag when Milwaukee gave him some exposure to firstbase. Brantley looks like a 4th outfielder who can be a useful pinch hitter.
" No big stars on the team is by design. "We can't afford to have the inefficiencies, even for a great talent. We need to function as efficiently as possible in our clubhouse, and that means guys have to know what it means to be a good teammate. We don't want to waste the energy on dealing with all those distractions. Besides, we value character over talent here in Cleveland---Mark Shapiro
User avatar
Mcreek
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:57 pm
Location: Venice, Florida

Four options

Unread postby ramllov » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:42 am

I thought that there were four player options for the player to be named later?

I see the discussion of three players, two that are on the list and one maybe. Who could be the other option(s)?

When is the dead line, when Shapiro has to make his selection?
I enjoy this stuff.
ramllov
 
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:50 am
Location: Coral Springs, Florida

Unread postby Rocky55 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:55 am

Projected numbers for Branltey for this year as a 21 yr old in AA, based on 600AB:

120 runs
194 hits
29 doubles
2 triples
7 home runs
67 rbi
75 walks
36 K's
45 SB

Just thought we should have some numbers for reference while we're ridiculing the guy.

Oh, and unless we think this year is a fluke, he batted .335 with an .854 OPS in 200+ AB last year in the SAL as a 20yr. old.


Rocky55
 
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:47 pm

Unread postby consigliere » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:34 am

I think with the acquisition of Santana, I just see no way they pickup Lucroy even if he is one of the four players. Likely would be Brantley or Green or the mysterious other player yet to be named.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby carnegie44115 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:40 am

Consigliere wrote:I think with the acquisition of Santana, I just see no way they pickup Lucroy even if he is one of the four players. Likely would be Brantley or Green or the mysterious other player yet to be named.


If LuCroy is an option why not take him? Ive read some places where either Santana has the desire to go back to third or the Indians want to maybe move him back there. If LuCroy is a choice, I say you pick him and move Santana to third. Not only are LuCrpy's catching skills ready for AA, his bat may be ready too. As for Santana, Ive read his catching skills arent exactly finished yet and are still rough, so he really could be in AA right now but his catching skills are still being refined.
Tribe Fan since 1995!

And...

Remember, fans, Tuesday is Die Hard Night. Free admission for anyone who was actually alive the last time the Indians won the pennant.
User avatar
carnegie44115
 
Posts: 1100
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:15 pm
Favorite Player: Travis Hafner
Least Favorite Player: Josh Beckett

Unread postby consigliere » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:44 am

carnegie44115 wrote:
Consigliere wrote:I think with the acquisition of Santana, I just see no way they pickup Lucroy even if he is one of the four players. Likely would be Brantley or Green or the mysterious other player yet to be named.


If LuCroy is an option why not take him? Ive read some places where either Santana has the desire to go back to third or the Indians want to maybe move him back there. If LuCroy is a choice, I say you pick him and move Santana to third. Not only are LuCrpy's catching skills ready for AA, his bat may be ready too. As for Santana, Ive read his catching skills arent exactly finished yet and are still rough, so he really could be in AA right now but his catching skills are still being refined.


I hinted that Santana probably has a desire to go back to third base.....but hearing Atkins talk about Santana, it appears they like him behind the plate and have no plans currently to move him out from back there.

Santana would be the everyday catcher at Akron next year....Toregas/Giminez the everyday Columbus catcher and the other may be the backup in Cleveland.....and McBride will be the everyday catcher in Kinston. Where does Lucroy play if no one is moved to another position or traded? As it is, they will likely trade Shoppach since Toregas may get a shot to backup next year.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby ArtGold » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:29 pm

Consigliere wrote:I think with the acquisition of Santana, I just see no way they pickup Lucroy even if he is one of the four players. Likely would be Brantley or Green or the mysterious other player yet to be named.


Kind of disagree here, I think you take the player with the best talent, and then sort out who plays where.
ArtGold
 
Posts: 1182
Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: Sacramento, Ca

Unread postby TribeNut » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:51 pm

LuCroy isn't the best talent, that is Brantley. LuCroy is the best hitter. The better question is: does the team acquire a player who will be fighting Santana/McBride for playing time @ C and Mills for playing time @ 1B? If the team doesn't mind this, then sure, take him. I don't see him as playing a premium position, either. The low level of quality Cs is b/c the position wears guys down, not b/c there are no good hitters there. Most are moved b/c they are too good of a hitter.
User avatar
TribeNut
Late Inning Defensive Replacement
 
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:54 am
Favorite Player: Lou Marson
Least Favorite Player: Aj Pierzinski

Unread postby TitoFrancona » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:45 pm

TribeNut wrote:LuCroy isn't the best talent, that is Brantley. LuCroy is the best hitter. The better question is: does the team acquire a player who will be fighting Santana/McBride for playing time @ C and Mills for playing time @ 1B? If the team doesn't mind this, then sure, take him. I don't see him as playing a premium position, either. The low level of quality Cs is b/c the position wears guys down, not b/c there are no good hitters there. Most are moved b/c they are too good of a hitter.


You seem to be obsessed with his OBP and are completely ignoring the fact that beyond his BA and OBP, Brantely clearly isn't the best talent. Poor defensive player, no power and no arm.

Exactly how can you say that Lucroy is a btter hitter and then turn around and say that Brantley is the better talent. I'm trying to find some logic to it.

And if you read some one of the scouting reports on Brantley, you'll see that at least one pub rates his upside as that of a 4th OF'er. Those types of players we have in abundance.
TitoFrancona
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: Sacramento, Ca
Favorite Player: Tito Francona
Least Favorite Player: Jim Thome

Unread postby nwizzle » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:41 pm

TribeNut wrote:LuCroy isn't the best talent, that is Brantley. LuCroy is the best hitter. The better question is: does the team acquire a player who will be fighting Santana/McBride for playing time @ C and Mills for playing time @ 1B? If the team doesn't mind this, then sure, take him. I don't see him as playing a premium position, either. The low level of quality Cs is b/c the position wears guys down, not b/c there are no good hitters there. Most are moved b/c they are too good of a hitter.


Even if Brantley were the best player available (which I have my serious doubts about in the first place), I don't see the Indians taking him. He has a weak arm and get terrible jumps on balls, meaning he will most likely have to be relegated to left field, a position that is looking like it might be filled by Trevor Crowe in the not so distant future.

Beyond that Brantley hits for no power at all from a corner outfield position, something the Indians do not hold in very high regard even if the player is a good contact hitter with speed and top of the order skills a la Coco Crisp.

Either way you slice it, I see very little shot that the Indians pick Brantley over Green/the other two PTBNL.
User avatar
nwizzle
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:51 pm

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:02 am

I wouldn't eliminate Brantley because he doesn't hit home runs. Sure, you look for power from your corner outfielders and infielders, but in our case we have a 40 HR guy in centerfield and a 25 HR guy at SS, two positions where you don't normally see power.

Also, Victor hit 24 HR's last year at catcher and Shoppach is on pace to hit more than that if he were starting. Assuming we eventually end up with Victor catching, Peralta at short, Grady in center, LaPorta in left, Mills at first, and Hafner at DH, that team would hit a ton of HR's even with a Brantley or Crowe in right. Hodges would chip in a few at 3rd as well.

As for Brantley having 185 singles out of 215 hits, keep in mind he also has something like 25 stolen bases. AFAIC, a single and a stolen base equals a double, unless there's a man on base that could score from first on the double.

I admit I want to see more speed and OBP on this team of plodders. Everywhere I look in this lineup outside of CF I see slow, slow, and slower. I see runners consistently failing to score from 2nd on singles, and stopping at 2nd on singles to right field. I have nothing against home runs, but sometimes you need to manufacture runs with speed and making contact like the Twins do. We have a bunch of slow guys who strike out a lot, and Brantley is the opposite of that. And I'm sure his defense will improve with coaching and experience.

That being said, I would have no problem if they took Lucroy.
Prosecutor
Plutonian Outliers
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 11:59 am

Unread postby jb » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:18 am

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_488726.jpg

Won;t happen. He doesn't ahve the pigmentation, errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr make up, of a whichita state grinder.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Unread postby Mcreek » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:24 pm

Here is another dude out of the archives some of you old buzzards might remember whose game Brantley resembles:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/puhlte01.shtml
" No big stars on the team is by design. "We can't afford to have the inefficiencies, even for a great talent. We need to function as efficiently as possible in our clubhouse, and that means guys have to know what it means to be a good teammate. We don't want to waste the energy on dealing with all those distractions. Besides, we value character over talent here in Cleveland---Mark Shapiro
User avatar
Mcreek
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:57 pm
Location: Venice, Florida

Unread postby ArtGold » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:12 am

Terry Puhl, good comp. I had been thinking Kenny Ramos:


http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... amos.shtml
ArtGold
 
Posts: 1182
Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: Sacramento, Ca

Unread postby Toxicadam » Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:46 am

In his last 5 games, Brantley has gone 11 for 19 (3 BB's, 2 K's).
User avatar
Toxicadam
 
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:53 am

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:48 am

Toxicadam wrote:In his last 5 games, Brantley has gone 11 for 19 (3 BB's, 2 K's).


All singles?
"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT
User avatar
Madre Hill, Superstar
Eternal Optimist
 
Posts: 4656
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:06 am
Location: Parma, OH
Favorite Player: The Playa
Least Favorite Player: The Game

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:04 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
Toxicadam wrote:In his last 5 games, Brantley has gone 11 for 19 (3 BB's, 2 K's).


All singles?


Yes

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb ... pid=488726
User avatar
dazindiansfanuk
Tyner Is God
 
Posts: 8992
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:21 am
Location: Cardiff, UK
Favorite Player: Jhonny Peralta
Least Favorite Player: Curt Schilling

Unread postby carnegie44115 » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:10 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
Toxicadam wrote:In his last 5 games, Brantley has gone 11 for 19 (3 BB's, 2 K's).


All singles?


Yes

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb ... pid=488726


And you know what, he has 6 runs scored, Grady has 2, why, because Brantley gets on, and then someone like Grady drives him, boom botta bing and you have runs scored. Plus go look at Ellsburys stats, and you will see similar stats to Brantleys.
Tribe Fan since 1995!

And...

Remember, fans, Tuesday is Die Hard Night. Free admission for anyone who was actually alive the last time the Indians won the pennant.
User avatar
carnegie44115
 
Posts: 1100
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:15 pm
Favorite Player: Travis Hafner
Least Favorite Player: Josh Beckett

Unread postby chitowntribephan » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:14 pm

I'm not suggesting Brantley is another Grady Sizemore but Grady did only hit 8 HRs as a 21 year old in AAA. He is 6 foot 2 inches; so is Brantley. It's not like Brantley is a little guy. In fact he's taller and only a little lighter than Green. Isn't it possible that Brantley will develop a little more power by age 24 or 25 and some of those singles will turn into doubles into the gap and/or a few more HRs?

You can't teach speed and you can't teach a sharp batting eye. You can coach it though so they can be utilized optimally. Brantley has athletic genes and seems to have quite a bit of talent. And, as has already been noted, he's already performing at a higher level (AA) compared to Green, which to me is the barometer between a suspect and a prospect.

If a guy is able to put up good numbers at AA and is young for the league too, then he's got a pretty decent shot at contributing at the major league level. To me Green hasn't proven anything yet still being in A ball and producing good but not great numbers. He may in fact turn out to be a better player but I think he carries much more risk compared to Brantley and I'm not convinced the risk is worth what you will almost surely get from Brantley (speed and batting eye and significant upside).
chitowntribephan
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:31 am
Location: Evanston, IL
Favorite Player: Joe Carter
Least Favorite Player: Rich Yett

Unread postby consigliere » Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:09 pm

Brantley's ability on the bases and at the plate have been comped to a former Indian we all know, Kenny Lofton. And if you go back and look at Lofton's minor league career and even his first 2 years in the big leagues, he was almost strictly a singles hitter.

Just sayin.
Indians Prospect Insider: http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/
Image
User avatar
consigliere
 
Posts: 10822
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Painesville Twp, OH
Favorite Player: Jeff Stevens
Least Favorite Player: Carl Willis

Unread postby SalMyers » Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:21 pm

Brantley is an igniter, the type of player the Indians really need at the top of their order. Any player who walks twice as much as he K's has significant ability.

Pete Rose was a singles hitter and a pretty damn good one at that.
User avatar
SalMyers
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:46 am

Unread postby Duane Kuiper » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:04 pm

chitowntribephan wrote:I'm not suggesting Brantley is another Grady Sizemore but Grady did only hit 8 HRs as a 21 year old in AAA. He is 6 foot 2 inches; so is Brantley. It's not like Brantley is a little guy. In fact he's taller and only a little lighter than Green.

Grady Age 20 AA .480 SLG
Brantley Age 21 AA .415 SLG

It's not even close.

Isn't it possible that Brantley will develop a little more power by age 24 or 25 and some of those singles will turn into doubles into the gap and/or a few more HRs?

You can't teach speed and you can't teach a sharp batting eye. You can coach it though so they can be utilized optimally. Brantley has athletic genes and seems to have quite a bit of talent. And, as has already been noted, he's already performing at a higher level (AA) compared to Green, which to me is the barometer between a suspect and a prospect.

If a guy is able to put up good numbers at AA and is young for the league too, then he's got a pretty decent shot at contributing at the major league level. To me Green hasn't proven anything yet still being in A ball and producing good but not great numbers.

Since Brantley has the same OPS as Green, then does Brantley have good but not great numbers?

He may in fact turn out to be a better player but I think he carries much more risk compared to Brantley and I'm not convinced the risk is worth what you will almost surely get from Brantley (speed and batting eye and significant upside).

Picking a poor defensive, singles hitter is very risky. Especially for an OF when the Inbdians have OF coming up soon or are already here. Grady, Laporta and Wegalrz. Where is Brantley going to play?

At least Green plays a spot of need for the Indians. 2b or 3B.

Brantley with his 11 for 19 still only has a 793 OPS for August. Green 854 OPS.
Duane Kuiper
 
Posts: 1666
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:42 pm
Location: Ohio

Unread postby Rocky55 » Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:34 pm

Duane Kuiper wrote:
chitowntribephan wrote:I'm not suggesting Brantley is another Grady Sizemore but Grady did only hit 8 HRs as a 21 year old in AAA. He is 6 foot 2 inches; so is Brantley. It's not like Brantley is a little guy. In fact he's taller and only a little lighter than Green.

Grady Age 20 AA .480 SLG
Brantley Age 21 AA .415 SLG

It's not even close.

Isn't it possible that Brantley will develop a little more power by age 24 or 25 and some of those singles will turn into doubles into the gap and/or a few more HRs?

You can't teach speed and you can't teach a sharp batting eye. You can coach it though so they can be utilized optimally. Brantley has athletic genes and seems to have quite a bit of talent. And, as has already been noted, he's already performing at a higher level (AA) compared to Green, which to me is the barometer between a suspect and a prospect.

If a guy is able to put up good numbers at AA and is young for the league too, then he's got a pretty decent shot at contributing at the major league level. To me Green hasn't proven anything yet still being in A ball and producing good but not great numbers.

Since Brantley has the same OPS as Green, then does Brantley have good but not great numbers?

He may in fact turn out to be a better player but I think he carries much more risk compared to Brantley and I'm not convinced the risk is worth what you will almost surely get from Brantley (speed and batting eye and significant upside).

Picking a poor defensive, singles hitter is very risky. Especially for an OF when the Inbdians have OF coming up soon or are already here. Grady, Laporta and Wegalrz. Where is Brantley going to play?

At least Green plays a spot of need for the Indians. 2b or 3B.

Brantley with his 11 for 19 still only has a 793 OPS for August. Green 854 OPS.


What the hell does someone's OPS for the month matter? Green's current OPS is .825; Brantley's is .824. Brantley is in AA and Green is in high A. Brantley also plays a position of need for the Tribe: leadoff hitter. Plus, for those who decry Branley's defense, a question: Can you find me a quote stating what a fine defender Green is and that he'll have no trouble converting back to 2nd?

I've said before, and I believe it to be true, we have guys in our system who are comparable players to Green, but better. We have no one in our system that I know of who is comparable to Brantley.
Rocky55
 
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:47 pm

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:26 pm

Consigliere wrote:Brantley's ability on the bases and at the plate have been comped to a former Indian we all know, Kenny Lofton. And if you go back and look at Lofton's minor league career and even his first 2 years in the big leagues, he was almost strictly a singles hitter.


So was Alex Cole.

Slap-hitting from my centerfielder? Eh, I could live with it. Slap-hitting from a corner outfielder? Um... not as much.
"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT
User avatar
Madre Hill, Superstar
Eternal Optimist
 
Posts: 4656
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:06 am
Location: Parma, OH
Favorite Player: The Playa
Least Favorite Player: The Game

Next

Return to Cleveland Indians & MLB

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest