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Unread postby swerb » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:43 am

dnosco wrote:
Maybe if you would have taken this tone originally instead of making it a personal attack on Paulie people would have been more inclined to listen to what you were saying.


Absolutely.

Remember, as I said above, he started it with his comment clearl directed to me (I was the only one making those proposals). If you are looking for the second guy in, you nabbed me.

The thing about Paul's column was that it was so slanted, glossing over the important details, saying never mind to the facts that we have too many players at his position and taking a slap at my article. It was as much of a FO-written article as I have ever seen on this site and obviously I have seen hundreds of columns. I challenge you to find even one column, most of which are on less controversial topics than what was fair value for your Cy Young pitcher, that was that slanted toward management. In fact, it was the kind of column I would expect from Scout.com which ran a column saying that this scout tells fans not to believe their eyes on this trade and 'to give it time because in a few years we could be really happy wiht it'.

Hey, have an opinion but at least present both sides (see my column with disclosure about Colon, etc.). Paul didn't come close to balance and, with his slap at my column, I reacted.

Yeah, and your piece was very balanced, right?

It was nothing but a straw man to set up more bashing of the Indians’ FO. You set unrealistically high expectations for the imminent CC trade – expectations that would never come close to being fulfilled – so that you could then, after the trade, compare the deal to those expectations and say that the FO blew it.

Listen, I ran it. I'm somewhere in between you and Paul on this. I respect both viewpoints.

But don't try and act like your piece was any more objective than his. You think we're all idiots?
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Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:46 am

I'm starting to get the impression from some that if you don't see the Indians' front office as the second coming of Ted Stepien, you're obviously a shill.

Eh, who cares. Who's up for a road trip to Akron or Buffalo later this season?
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Unread postby aldamon » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:52 am

dnosco wrote:I challenge you to find even one column, most of which are on less controversial topics than what was fair value for your Cy Young pitcher, that was that slanted toward management.


I think you place too much weight on the Cy Young label. Is it possible that most of the league considered Beckett to be the superior pitcher last year and figured CC won the award because of innings pitched? Is it also possible the rest of the league looked at CC's heavy pitching load last year, his terrible performance in the playoffs, and his lack of dominant numbers the years prior to last year and realized he's not really an ace and might now be a tired pitcher in the fall?

Drop the labels. What is two months of CC Sabathia worth? We got what he is worth.
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Unread postby CP » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:53 am

Swerb wrote:But don't try and act like your piece was any more objective than his. You think we're all idiots?


I propose a battle royale podcast. Paul on one side, Dennis on the other, Rich as the moderator.
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Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:30 am

RCB1948 wrote:
Consigliere wrote:He is a converted second baseman, so I don't see a move back to 2B being a problem.
Actually, that makes it sound like very much a potential problem to me. Why would someone convert a good hitter from 2B to 3B? Bats are much easier to find at 3B. Probably because he struggled defensively at 2B. Maybe not, but I would not assume there is no risk here. If he is, indeed, the PTBNL it probably is contingent upon his being able to play 2B to Shapiro's satisfaction. That contigency would also make me wonder just how potent his bat is. It is not like we have Wade Boggs putting a final coat of polish on at AAA and don't want another good hitting 3B prospect unless he is Mike Schmidt.


I'm guessing they converted him to 3B because they knew that Braun and Gamel were butchers in the infield and they already had Weeks penciled in as their future 2B. Now that he's here we can move him back to his natural position.
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Unread postby daddywags » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:52 am

>>+Bryson...this guy is pitching in low-A ball...nough said. Eye-popping K-rate but average WHIP+ERA....he is just 20yo but he isn´t dominating low-A ball....we have better arms in Lake County<,

Who? Not trying to be a jerk, here, I don't really know what sort of arms we have at low A ball. I've read two reports on Bryson - one said he throws 93-94 and can hit 96 while the other said he throws low-90s and has a plus (almost major league ready) slider. I'd be very encouraged to know we have several arms like that already in LC.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:59 am

Just posted a quick blog update with some comments from the Brewers guys who sort of do what I do (I'll have a full blown piece here at TCF once I get more info for the piece I am putting together....likely post tomorrow morning):

http://indianstopprospects.blogspot.com/

One thing I always like to get, is a perspective from the other side of the deal. In this case, the Milwaukee Brewers. Brian Kapellusch over at www.brewerfan.net was kind enough to respond to my call this morning and provide some insight on the four players the Indians are getting in this deal.

He and the rest of the guys over there, like here, have followed these guys extensively and may know more about these guys than anyone in the media. Here is what he said about the deal:

*note, the deal is not 100% confirmed yet, but it is almost for sure Matt LaPorta, Rob Bryson, Zach Jackson and the player to be named later is believed to be Green.

On Matt LaPorta - "Pat Burrell clone. Walks, strikeouts, homers, but also carries a decent batting average as well. He projects to be an average-to-above average 1B, or a sub-average OF. The ability to DH obviously makes him more valuable to Cleveland than Milwaukee, but I haven't heard anything that tells me he couldn't be a 1B at worst. His right-handedness made him a bit more available than Mat Gamel, but he's a player with a great deal of character... You won't ever have to worry about him in the clubhouse. Laporta was my favorite minor league player. I think he'll be special."

On Zach Jackson - "I wouldn't call him a prospect, more like a "change of scenery" guy. He's got a funky Dontrelle-Willis-esque delivery which can be tough on lefties at times. He's a bit older, but his arm isn't as old, as he didn't get a ton of playing time in college. He probably projects as a long-reliever or LOOGY at best, but you never know."

On Rob Bryson - "Draft & Follow guy, with a really great strikeout rate. He's got a very plus slider, and a decent fastball. I think he projects as a reliever, possibly a closer, but I suppose he could start if he developed a third pitch. Obviously he's only in A-ball, so he's got a way to go ... but the Brewers wouldn't have signed him as a DFE player if they didn't think he was worth it."

On Taylor Green - "The best way to put it, is that he's a Jeff Cirillo clone. Not the neurotic Jeff Cirillo that only seems to perform well in a Brewers uniform, but an all-around solid 3B. The knock on him will be the lack of pop at the hot corner, but he's a plus defender, and has great plate discipline. He's not the prospect that Gamel is, but if he's the PTBNL, it'll sting a bit for me, personally."
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Unread postby hornet84 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:20 pm

Should Mr. Garko be looking over his shoulder ? LaPorta, from all reports is a better firstbasemen than an outfielder. A singles hitting ,below average fielding,firstbasemen serves absolutely no purpose on a major league roster. I forgot to mention Garko can't run either. That looks to be three strikes against Mr. Garko.
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Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:29 pm

hornet84 wrote:Should Mr. Garko be looking over his shoulder ? LaPorta, from all reports is a better firstbasemen than an outfielder. A singles hitting ,below average fielding,firstbasemen serves absolutely no purpose on a major league roster. I forgot to mention Garko can't run either. That looks to be three strikes against Mr. Garko.


I said before the start of the year we should look to trade Garko as I think he has the lowest ceiling of any 1Bman in the system.

Whether Laporta stays in LF or not, it doesn't change that in my mind.
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Unread postby hornet84 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:35 pm

I am just glad they did not trade for another guy named Escobar :roll :roll: This trade may look good in 2012 :?:
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:35 pm

All official now:

INDIANS & BREWERS COMPLETE FIVE-PLAYER TRADE

OF Matt LaPorta, RHP Rob Bryson, LHP Zach Jackson & PTBN
Acquired From the Brewers in Exchange for LHP CC Sabathia

CLEVELAND, OH --- The Cleveland Indians today announced the club has acquired OF MATT LaPORTA, RHP ROB BRYSON, LHP ZACH JACKSON & a player to be named from the Milwaukee Brewers in exchange for LHP CC SABATHIA.

LaPorta, 23, has spent the entire season at Class AA Huntsville in the Southern League where he has hit .288 (87-302) with 23 doubles, 2 triples, 20 home runs & 66 RBI in 84 games. He currently leads the Southern League in homers, is 2nd in RBI and extra base hits (41), 3rd in slugging % (.576), 6th in on-base % (.402) and tied for 5th with 56 runs scored. The right-handed hitting outfielder is hitting .301 (68-225) this season off right-handed pitching and .307 (31-101) with RISP. The Double A All-Star has also been selected to play in the Futures Game on July 13 for Team USA and is one of 60 players currently being considered for the 24-man United States Olympic Team roster.

LaPorta is in his second year of professional baseball after being selected by the Milwaukee Brewers in the first round (7th overall) of the 2007 First-Year Player Draft out of the University of Florida where he was two-time Southeastern Conference Player of the Year. Last season after signing with the Brewers he hit .304 (35-115) with 12 HR & 31 RBI in 30 games between rookie Helena and A West Virginia. Prior to the 2008 season the Pt. Charlotte, FL native was named the top prospect and best power hitting prospect in the Brewers organization by Baseball America. He was also named by Baseball America as the 23rd best prospect in all of baseball entering the 2008. He will report to AA Akron in the coming days.

Bryson, 20, has spent the entire season at Class A West Virginia of the South Atlantic League where he has gone 3-2 w/5 saves and a 4.25 ERA in 22 games/5 starts (55.0IP, 43H, 26ER, 20BB, 73K), limiting SAL hitters to a .209 (43-206, 3HR) average against. In relief this year he has compiled an ERA of 3.96 (35.1IP, 24H, 16ER, 11BB, 53K) and has allowed 1ER in his last 7 outings (9.2IP, 4H, 2BB, 16K). He is averaging 11.9 strikeouts per 9.0IP. Entering 2008 he was named 11th best overall prospect in the Brewers organization by Baseball America.

He was signed in 2007 as a draft and follow pick from the 2006 draft by Milwaukee (31st round) out of Penn High School in New Castle, Delaware. He posted a 2.67 ERA in 18 games/4 starts at Rookie Helena last year (54.0IP, 49H, 16ER, 12BB, 70K). Bryson was named the 8th best prospect in the Pioneer League following the 2007 season as he ranked 3rd in the league in saves (8) and 4th in strikeouts (70). He will be assigned to A Lake County.

Jackson, 25, has spent much of the season at AAA Nashville (1-5, 7.85ERA, 22G/6GS) and appeared in 2 games with the Brewers in May (0-0, 4.91ERA, 3.2IP, 5H, 2R/ER). He was acquired by the Brewers in December of 2005 from Toronto in a trade that sent 1B Lyle Overbay to the Blue Jays. He owns a Major League career record of 2-2 w/a 5.36 ERA in 10 games (7GS, 42.0IP, 53H, 25ER) with the Brewers and last year at AAA Nashville went 11-10 w/a 4.46 ERA in 28 starts (169.2IP, 184H, 84ER, 123K). He finished 2nd in the Pacific Coast League in innings pitched & games started and 3rd in strikeouts. Jackson, who has pitched professionally since 2004, will have his option transferred from Nashville to Buffalo.

Sabathia posted a career record of 106-71 with a 3.83 ERA (1528.2IP, 1435H, 650ER, 1265SO) with the Indians from 2001-08. The 2007 American League Cy Young winner owns the 7th highest winning % (.599) and 5th most strikeouts (1265) in Indians club history. He is 6-8 with a 3.83 ERA in 18 starts this season with Cleveland (122.1IP, 117H, 52ER, AL-high 123SO).

Said Cleveland Indians Executive Vice President and General Manager MARK SHAPIRO –
“While we are disappointed to have reached this juncture, we are focused on positioning the organization for success in 2009 and beyond. No player has impacted this team and community more in the last eight years than CC Sabathia. However, by trading CC, we have infused several promising players into our organization – including Matt LaPorta, Rob Bryson, Zach Jackson, and a Player to be Named Later. ”

The 40-man roster still stands at 37 players.
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Unread postby dnosco » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:37 pm

But don't try and act like your piece was any more objective than his. You think we're all idiots?


If I did, I wouldn't have ever posted or written here.

Tony, regarding the Brewers' guy comments, did you ask him who he thought got the better of the deal?
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:43 pm

The PTBNL is supposed to be the second most important player in this deal, according to Shapiro. It will be one of the Brewers top prospects, but they want top evaluate a list of players.
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Unread postby sk82day » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:46 pm

aldamon wrote:Drop the labels. What is two months of CC Sabathia worth? We got what he is worth.


Like few have mentioned including myself last evening, I dont think that is true. There is still about 3 and a half weeks before the trading deadline and the NL has 9 teams in div leads or within 5 games. Could this trade have been done to soon? I think so, who knows what some of these teams might have given up to rent CC.
I just think the FO screwed up by not waiting a little longer.
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Unread postby cmstophe » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:46 pm

Consigliere wrote:The PTBNL is supposed to be the second most important player in this deal, according to Shapiro. It will be one of the Brewers top prospects, but they want top evaluate a list of players.


Too bad it won't be Escobar or Gamel.

It'll be a low-A.
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Unread postby cmstophe » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:48 pm

Like few have mentioned including myself last evening, I dont think that is true. There is still about 3 and a half weeks before the trading deadline and the NL has 9 teams in div leads or within 5 games. Could this trade have been done to soon? I think so, who knows what some of these teams might have given up to rent CC.
I just think the FO screwed up by not waiting a little longer.


Disagree entirely. The Brewers' offer was off the table if the deal was not done last night; they wanted the two starts before the ASB.

The Dodgers had already dropped out, and the Phillies had NOTHING to offer.

If you wait, you risk not getting anything at all.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:48 pm

In case no one checks the Akron thread, LaPorta will start his Indians career in Akron.

I'll be there tomorrow, wonder if he will be there by then? I may even go on Wed.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:50 pm

Indians have until the end of the regular season to decide on the PTBNL. They can't give the names, but again, it will be the second best player in this deal.
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Unread postby daddywags » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:54 pm

Consigliere wrote:Indians have until the end of the regular season to decide on the PTBNL. They can't give the names, but again, it will be the second best player in this deal.


I think we're going to need to start a "Brevard County Manatees" thread soon.
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Unread postby NH Tribe Fan » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:55 pm

With a night of reflection, I think I will be very happy with this trade IF we get Taylor Green or Jeffers.

Holding on to CC for the draft picks is a foolish move considering the lack of ability to draft someone of ability.


However, this trade won't pay off until 2010 at the earliest, 2009 will be a tread-water type of a year.

I think what will be the true judge of this trade is what Shapiro and Dolan do with the money that would have gone to re-signing CC. Do we try to sign grinders? Or do we get someone who can speed up the process of contending again. (K-Rod?)? Or does Dolan pocket the money saved? What we do with that money will be really important this off season.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:57 pm

They have really spent a lot of time explaining their rationale with not wanting two draft picks. Hopefully this explanation makes some of the draftniks happy.
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Unread postby dnosco » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:57 pm

Drop the labels. What is two months of CC Sabathia worth? We got what he is worth.


You forget the two probably first round draft choices. They DO make a difference whether or not you think our team can draft.
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Unread postby daddywags » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:02 pm

>>However, this trade won't pay off until 2010 at the earliest, 2009 will be a tread-water type of a year.<<

Maybe. We weren't going to have CC in '09 anyway, so his leaving now doesn't really change much for '09. I suppose we could have hoped to get players who will be high end contributors next season for CC, but that's a bit of a stretch given that the teams likely to want him all want to keep their big league teams in tact for the playoff run. I would have liked to have gotten a guy like Phil Hughes for CC so we could plug him into the rotation next year, but it didn't happen and by all accounts was never an option. AFAIC, the biggest issues for next season are whether Hafner and Martinez are back at full strength hitting 3-4 in our lineup. If they are, we'll be okay. If they aren't, we're in trouble.
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Unread postby aldamon » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:05 pm

dnosco wrote:
Drop the labels. What is two months of CC Sabathia worth? We got what he is worth.


You forget the two probably first round draft choices. They DO make a difference whether or not you think our team can draft.


I haven't forgotten anything and I don't recall saying they didn't make a difference. CC came with draft picks. That was understood. We got what CC was worth, draft picks included because what the market offers is what a player is worth. Unless you know what every team was offering AND was willing to offer you're off base here.
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Unread postby BooyaCS » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:10 pm

Actually CC is worth 3 picks for Mil. They probably won't resign Sheets either so all in all they give up 4 players and will have the ability to draft 5.

The pitchers we got back I am not too worried about. We can develop pitchers.

Hitters not so much. Sorry but I have to bring up the recent hitters that were run out of town that are much better now than when they left Cleveland. Milton Bradley (hated him), Brandon Phillips, Branyan to an extent.

Also the "good" hitters we have gotten in trades have not faired to well as of late.

I am worried about Laporta forgetting how to hit with the Indians.
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Unread postby NH Tribe Fan » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:11 pm

BooyaCS wrote:I am worried about Laporta forgetting how to hit with the Indians.



They already flew Shelton out to meet with LaPorta to discuss his swing........ :lol:
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Unread postby aldamon » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:16 pm

BooyaCS wrote:Hitters not so much. Sorry but I have to bring up the recent hitters that were run out of town that are much better now than when they left Cleveland. Milton Bradley (hated him), Brandon Phillips, Branyan to an extent.


Ludwick kills me. Can't believe it.
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Unread postby TitoFrancona » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:28 pm

cmstophe wrote:
Like few have mentioned including myself last evening, I dont think that is true. There is still about 3 and a half weeks before the trading deadline and the NL has 9 teams in div leads or within 5 games. Could this trade have been done to soon? I think so, who knows what some of these teams might have given up to rent CC.
I just think the FO screwed up by not waiting a little longer.


Disagree entirely. The Brewers' offer was off the table if the deal was not done last night; they wanted the two starts before the ASB.
The Dodgers had already dropped out, and the Phillies had NOTHING to offer.

If you wait, you risk not getting anything at all.


Thereby forcing Shapiro to accept a deal that he may not have been completely happy with.
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Unread postby cmstophe » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:31 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
cmstophe wrote:
Like few have mentioned including myself last evening, I dont think that is true. There is still about 3 and a half weeks before the trading deadline and the NL has 9 teams in div leads or within 5 games. Could this trade have been done to soon? I think so, who knows what some of these teams might have given up to rent CC.
I just think the FO screwed up by not waiting a little longer.


Disagree entirely. The Brewers' offer was off the table if the deal was not done last night; they wanted the two starts before the ASB.
The Dodgers had already dropped out, and the Phillies had NOTHING to offer.

If you wait, you risk not getting anything at all.


Thereby forcing Shapiro to accept a deal that he may not have been completely happy with.


Possibly. Take that deal, or risk getting nothing. Yikes.
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Unread postby NMonster » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:46 pm

It really is official! You know how I know? Not the conference. Check the Indian's Website. Where once CC was, now is some guy called TBD. Who is TBD. He better have good command of his fastball and and not have an ERA over 3! ;-)

Yes I know TBD is To Be Determined.
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Unread postby carnegie44115 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:48 pm

NMonster wrote:It really is official! You know how I know? Not the conference. Check the Indian's Website. Where once CC was, now is some guy called TBD. Who is TBD. He better have good command of his fastball and and not have an ERA over 3! ;-)

Yes I know TBD is To Be Determined.


It should be Sowers, and I am saying its the only choice on the roster with the amount of proper rest and not that hes our man, because he is not. Also if it is him, that means an extra start for him as well, crap.
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Unread postby Steve the Pirate » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:55 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
cmstophe wrote:
Like few have mentioned including myself last evening, I dont think that is true. There is still about 3 and a half weeks before the trading deadline and the NL has 9 teams in div leads or within 5 games. Could this trade have been done to soon? I think so, who knows what some of these teams might have given up to rent CC.
I just think the FO screwed up by not waiting a little longer.


Disagree entirely. The Brewers' offer was off the table if the deal was not done last night; they wanted the two starts before the ASB.
The Dodgers had already dropped out, and the Phillies had NOTHING to offer.

If you wait, you risk not getting anything at all.


Thereby forcing Shapiro to accept a deal that he may not have been completely happy with.


Except Shapiro was the one in power, not Melvin. The Indians still have a good chance to compete in the future years without this trade. The Brewers have horrible pitching prospects (we just took one of their non-horrible pitching prospects away) and they need this trade to compete. The Brewers Farm system is absolutely loaded hitting-wise, but much of that system is naturally playing at positions the Brewers already have filled. Honestly, we should have been able to walk away with LaPorta and Gamel for C.C. because of the fact that the Brewers absolutely needed this. Can you name another pitcher of C.C.'s quality being shopped on the market? No, the closest thing is Burnett who is a #3 at best. I'm thinking though that the PTBN will be conditional upon how well C.C. pitches there. If his ERA stays between 2-3 or even 3 to 3.5 he will win tons of games with the Brewer offense which may lead to getting a high-profile like Gamel. Unlikely, but if C.C. keeps it to only 2-3 losses then it could happen.
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Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:57 pm

Steve the Pirate wrote:Honestly, we should have been able to walk away with LaPorta and Gamel for C.C. because of the fact that the Brewers absolutely needed this.


If the Brewers had any intention of signing C.C. long-term, you would be right. For a 3 month rental, however, they were not going to go Montreal and sell the farm.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:00 pm

dnosco wrote:Since Paul decided that he had to get in his shot:

The absurdity that the Brewers should have had been forced to part with players like Ryan Braun or Manny Parra for three months of C.C. (remember that Colon was under contract for all of 2003 when that deal was consumated), when 2008 is obviously the year they're going for the brass ring (Ben Sheets figures to follow C.C. out of Wisconsin at the end of the year), shows little grasp on how baseball trades work and how rent-a-players work.


let's have at it. First, do you really think ANYONE, even me in my article, is stupid enough to think we could have gotten Braun, Gallardo or Parra? That is who I wanted. Obviously there was negotiation there. But if you would have taken even ONE second to read the newspaper articles, blogs and posts that were going around it was essentially LaPorta and guys who were down in the lower half of the Brewers' top 30 prospects and their system was rated more lowly than ours, if an additional prospect even was going to be included, which in some accounts it wasn't. So, yeah, my article was a kneejerk to those low expectations, trying to make some sense out of them.

But its people like you who have low expectations that lead to trades like this being pulled off.

Your article was just rubbish and, frankly, catered right to the front office, glossing over the negative points of LaPorta, the fact that we HAVE a bunch of 1B/DH types already meaning we have filled ZERO of the holes we wanted (we wanted a power-hitting outfielder), totally ignoring the Linebrink trade last year and the fact that, besides CC, the Brewers get two draft choices in this deal, too. Why, exactly, was that Paul? Would it make your FO-serving case weaker to include ALL the facts?

So, saying LaPorta was the most we could expect for CC essentially tells us that LaPorta was worth not one but two first round draft choices PLUS a chance at a WS for Milwaukee? Man, you need to get your balance recalibrated because my guess is that yours needs to have its expectations rating brought back up to zero.

I am not even going to get into a discussion of what percentage of draftees make it to the majors in less than two years after they are drafted and how many of that small percentage have good major league careers and, if they do, if they even have an average year (for the productive part of their career) in the first year of their career. You care to share that with us, Paul because, as we all know, the clock is ticking on a lot of other good players leaving this franchise...but we can always get deals like this for Sizemore and Martinez, right?

And you are absolutely right, LaPorta is the best prospect in the Indians' organization, but so would have about 50 prospects as our top prospect is the oft-injured Adam Miller.

Actually it is you that show very little grasp over what you should get for a CLOSE TO THREE MONTH RENTAL (although 2.5 sounds better when you are making the case, doesn't it) of a Cy Young award winner. Exactly how many Cy Young award winners have ever even been dealt at the deadline?

I guess your article came out before you knew it was Bryson and Jackson as the 2nd and 3rd guys but I can't wait to see how you spin them and Green, if he is the other guy. You have done such a good job of spinning everything else so far it is really comical.

Nice article, if it is written by a Brewers' fan. You can take off your Indians' FO cheerleader outfit now.

BTW, if I reference your article in mine, I'll have the balls to at least reference it directly.


Dennis,
Sorry I’m a little late to the party on this, but you and I obviously see things for completely different angles. Instead of degenerating into personal attacks, let me just address some of the problems that we seem to have regarding the recent C.C. trade:
Your article, which was titled “What C.C. Should Yield Us From Milwaukee” (which leaves very little to doubt in terms of expectations of an article) came to the conclusion that:
Given what we know from last year with Linebrink and adding what CC brings to the table compared to Linebrink (including his hitting ability, which is a non-trivial factor), our haul should be one of the following:
1. Parra and Gamel
2. LaPorta, Gamel, Escobar (or Connor Gillespie, a good hitting OFer) and Jeffress (an all-prospect trade that probably won't help us much in 2009)
3. Braun and Gamel
4. Yovani Gallardo and Gamel or LaPorta (although I would obviously prefer Gamel)
I am thinking we could get the first one done, I am MORE than willing to settle for #3 although I think it will hurt us in 2009 (as I don't see us then having enough starting pitching) and I am dreaming we could get the 4th one done, or maybe even one slightly better than that (Gallardo, Gamel and Gillespie) done if we throw in Casey Blake or a reliever.
If we get less than one of those four or five options or something similar or better, we will have been hoodwinked in the deal, especially compared to the Linebrink deal last year.

I know that you’ve since backed off that position and have characterized it as “outlandish”, but that’s what I was going off of when I called your conclusion absurd and still would – that the organization would be “hoodwinked” if any of those scenarios didn’t play out. How am I to go off of anything outside of that as it was sitting on the Indians’ page all weekend as the truth as you see it?

For the Brewers to give up what you proposed for 3+ months of Sabathia (Linebrink deal considered) would be akin to either completely ripping EVERY prospect out of the Brewers’ organization or to ask for players that are already in Milwaukee when they so obviously are looking at 2008 as their year. The inclusion of Parra or Braun on your two “preferred scenarios”, in addition to Gamel, shows that you’re not that familiar with the way that these trades generally work.

The reason I did not link it, by the way, is that I felt that it was an article with illogical conclusions that simply set up your next article to say “That’s It?” and that the more eyes that saw it with the TCF.com banner above it was not something that I was interested in perpetuating.

As for your issue with my piece on LaPorta, it was written as an introduction to a prospect that very few people know about and what the rationale would be for the Indians to acquire LaPorta.

Does it paint a rosy picture?
Probably, if you feel that LaPorta is an impact bat who is pretty close to being MLB-ready, which most people who know better than I agree that he is.

Is this a good deal for the Indians?
I don’t know…you don’t know…nobody knows today just as very few people know what deals were out there and whether this truly was the best one. I do agree that Shapiro had better be right on this one as Sabathia was the biggest chip he had to play, but to characterize the deal as grand larceny is wildly premature at best.

We’ll know how this thing shakes out when LaPorta arrives in Cleveland (by that I mean the date on the calendar that he arrives there) and his performance once he gets there. Anything prior to that is just guessing, but my piece was done as nothing more than an informational piece on who he was, why the organization rated him so highly, and where (and when) he looks to fit into the Indians’ plans going forward to educate people who don’t follow the minors as closely as others or who have no idea who the player is behind the name.

If you took it to be organizational pandering and pointed in the direction of praising the organization (though I’m not sure that I did much more than lay out who he is and why he fits), you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, just as anyone else is entitled to theirs regarding your articles.
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Unread postby Dragon » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:00 pm

This is a bad deal for the Indians.

Indians: LaPorta

Brewers: Playoff run w/Sabathia + two 1st round draft picks

LaPorta's potential: he is not a 5 star slam dunk. There is risk with him. He could turn into a 30-40 HR basher or a windmill.

I don't consider the other players added in with LaPorta anything more than average propects at best. Why they couldn't get someone like Cole Gillespie or pry one of their catchers loose is beyond me. Instead, the best of the bunch sounds like either Green or Brantley. Personally, I like Brantley better.

Last year Shapiro traded Max Ramirez - a better hitting prospect than either of these two for a part year rental of Kenny Lofton.

The pitchers - the older one - well he could probably actually get time with our staff now since it is so bad, but he's just filler. The younger one is a live arm - which is code for: who knows? Which means he isn't worth much at this point.

But the main reason this is bad for this organization is that if you claim to be a small market team with budget constraints, it has to be the top priority to manage your resources right - money & players.

How CC Sabthia would leave Cleveland should have been planned out a year before his walk year. He has done it before with other players. He waits until the walk year to talk to the player/agent and acts shocked that the agent has talked the player into testing the market.

So he holds onto him, knowing full well that his value diminishes with each start once the season starts. But it is seen as worth it as long as the team stays competitive this year and sells tickets.

Which it didn't stay competitive so here he is with a month to trade him and everybody knows that the team trading for him - if they don't have big money, they will see it as rental and use that in negotiations.

The final mistake was this: one week into it he wets himself and gives him away for poor value. I still can't believe he didn't wait and caved in to the Brewer's demands when he had plenty of time & other teams interested.

I wish I could play poker with him :twisted:

The management of this organization is a cluster#@$@ from the top down to the goofs on the field.
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Unread postby RCB1948 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:07 pm

NH Tribe Fan wrote:They already flew Shelton out to meet with LaPorta to discuss his swing........ :lol:
I desperately need to have you (or someone) write that this DEFINITIVELY NOT TRUE. It is too horrific to ponder.
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Unread postby petes999 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:30 pm

It will be interesting to see what the market is like in the next few weeks. Did the trade market shift from renting players to investing in youngsters after the Santana trade? Did New York and Boston changing their positions and holding onto their youngsters take out the two biggest players thus everyone is now able to wait it out and pay less.

Yes, Sabathia may have gotten more on the market last year (all things being equal - last year of contract and all) yet do NY and Boston lead the way? And, LA constantly getting burned with high priced free agents like Andrew Jones and others scared them off, especially for a rental.
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Unread postby sk82day » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:28 pm

The take it or leave it angle doesnt work guys. It still boils down to there is over 3 weeks left before deadline. People have named 3 teams show rumored interest. theres 6 other teams that are in playoff races in the NL. You are trying to tell me that only 3 of those 9 have any interest in CC? What would of happened if in the next week and half the East race tightens up even more. Who knows what those teams would of given up. I still feel that we got a deal that any of the 9 would have given up in the week before the deadline. And to miss out on a tightning race that who knows what those teams would have given up.
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Unread postby petes999 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:37 pm

One last thing on those who wanted a haul for CC based on Linebrick's take last year. When Baseball America ranks the three prospects as 6th,7th and 19th in the Padres system, the Padres #1 choice (at #23 in 2007) already ranked 8th. Thus, because Brewers were going to get 2 1st round picks for Linderbrick when he was a FA (actually 1st supp and 2nd due to Chicago being in the top 16 protected), the 6th and 7th prospects are basically compensation for those FA draft picks. Thus the rental cost Brewers really the 19th person in the Padres system (plus some change for a few spots from 8th to 6th best prospect).

Typically a #1 prospect even late in the draft comes in around 5-9th best prospect. Even with Boston, their 2007 Supp pick was listed as 8th best in their system.

Thus, the question for us, is will LaPorta being a #1 prospect in our system and Green worth giving up on Sabathia plus a Mills and Chisenhall (factoring in we would have picked around 25 and 34)? I would say Green = Chisenhall (if not more than) and LaPorta over Mills any day of the week

Now would I have liked a package of LaPorta, Jeffers and Lucroy? (3 top 10) Yes... Yet to expect both LaPorta and a Parra, Escobar or the 3rd baseman plus some was shooting for the moon.
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Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:41 pm

sk82day wrote:The take it or leave it angle doesnt work guys. It still boils down to there is over 3 weeks left before deadline. People have named 3 teams show rumored interest. theres 6 other teams that are in playoff races in the NL. You are trying to tell me that only 3 of those 9 have any interest in CC? What would of happened if in the next week and half the East race tightens up even more. Who knows what those teams would of given up. I still feel that we got a deal that any of the 9 would have given up in the week before the deadline. And to miss out on a tightning race that who knows what those teams would have given up.


Of the 3 teams that were the most interested, the other 2 (Phils and Cubs) had nothing even close to what we got from Milwaukee. Even if we would have gotten both the #1 hitting and pitching prospect from either, they still wouldn't have equaled the value of LaPorta alone. I don't believe all the talk about the Dodgers being interested because the last thing they need to do is trade one of their best hitters (Kemp) when they have few good hitters for something that they have a ton of, which is pitching. The Rays, Yanks, and Sox were probably interested but not to the extent of the above 3 and were never really in it.
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Unread postby sk82day » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:32 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Of the 3 teams that were the most interested, the other 2 (Phils and Cubs) had nothing even close to what we got from Milwaukee. Even if we would have gotten both the #1 hitting and pitching prospect from either, they still wouldn't have equaled the value of LaPorta alone. I don't believe all the talk about the Dodgers being interested because the last thing they need to do is trade one of their best hitters (Kemp) when they have few good hitters for something that they have a ton of, which is pitching. The Rays, Yanks, and Sox were probably interested but not to the extent of the above 3 and were never really in it.


I understand what ur saying, and what Im saying is now that the Brewers made a move, how much is the Cubs willing to give up now. Now dont get me wrong CC needed ot be dealt, I just wouldve liked to see what the other team wouldve given up to keep up with a team that makes a move. We did not need to be the first move, we needed to wait and see who other teams would pick up and then what the other teams in the division would have done to keep up.
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Unread postby dnosco » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:51 pm

I know that you’ve since backed off that position and have characterized it as “outlandish”, but that’s what I was going off of when I called your conclusion absurd and still would – that the organization would be “hoodwinked” if any of those scenarios didn’t play out. How am I to go off of anything outside of that as it was sitting on the Indians’ page all weekend as the truth as you see it?


That's what comes from putting together something late at night and sending it in before proofreading it for context. So, while I can never REALLY prove my intent was to bring it back to center that is what it was, I said a number of things like this on Saturday after I wrote the article late Friday night:

As I said, LaPorta AND Gamel is the minimum I will take in this trade and that is without adding other players on our side. My goal is Gallardo (who would have to be a PTBNL in the trade until he comes off the DL) with my fallback being Parra if the Indians throw in a reliever.


If that doesn't put my first article in perspective, along with a lot my other posts on Saturday, I don't know what does.

That being said a couple of things are a little troubling to me. First, normally as Swerb told me once, he doesn't like to have frontpage pissing contests between his writers. You seemed to cross that line. Second, that you and Swerb have now crafted this scenario and put it into print, where I was just trying to set the standards so high that I could bash Shapiro if he got less than what I had proposed. That is just a complete fabrication (as my LaPorta and Gamel comment above in the CC Speculation Thread shows) and anyone who has known me for the years I have been writing knows that I have NEVER tried that type of deceiptful writing. It's also pretty insulting to suggest that about any writer here, don't you think?

For you and Swerb to believe this you must think either I have a lot of pull with the fans or that the fans that visit your site are so stupid they could be easily duped. My impression is that neither of those are true so I don't know what the issue is.

Back on the point of this trade, I will end by saying that I haven't read many Brewers' fans who thought we got the best of this trade. I have read pretty much split opinions here, mostly neutral. While that doesn't make any of us fans experts at player development, it shows how the trade appears to the fans of both teams. May mean nothing, may mean something, but certainly the perceptions in the cities are may not be that different on who got the better of this trade.
Last edited by dnosco on Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby TribeTalk01 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:51 pm

I think to be fair this was probably the best deal we could of gotten for CC, I think we were all a little spoilt by the Colon deal and had expectations that somehow we could get a similar type haul but that was never that realistic.

I think other teams may have prosposed deals that would have included 3 players of a nice similar level but no one offered a slam dunk prospect like LaPorta so I dont blame Shap for pulling the trigger on this deal.

As a side with LaPorta in the bag and probably Green soon to follow I'm now starting to feel better about our position players we have in the minors. LaPorta, Weglarz, Mills, Hodges, Brown ....... Finally there appears to be some light at the end of the tunnel, with Chisenhall, Abreu and maybe Rivero there maybe some 'x' factors in there as well

Pitching depth worries me a little, we've got some nice arms but not #1 or 2 starters, hopefully Miller can get healthy once and for all and that may change.

I'm really hoping these guys just tank from here on in and we get the 1st pick next year so atleast we could draft that kid from SD State or Alex White from NC
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Unread postby tbone » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:10 pm

How about this from Castro...

http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives ... ut_it.html

No dot about it.

Thought you might be interested to know one of Carsten Charles Sabathia's representatives called the Brewers to inform them that, from this point forward, he is to be referred to as CC, not C.C.
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Unread postby TitoFrancona » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:17 pm

TribeTalk01 wrote:I think to be fair this was probably the best deal we could of gotten for CC, I think we were all a little spoilt by the Colon deal and had expectations that somehow we could get a similar type haul but that was never that realistic.

I think other teams may have prosposed deals that would have included 3 players of a nice similar level but no one offered a slam dunk prospect like LaPorta so I dont blame Shap for pulling the trigger on this deal.

As a side with LaPorta in the bag and probably Green soon to follow I'm now starting to feel better about our position players we have in the minors. LaPorta, Weglarz, Mills, Hodges, Brown ....... Finally there appears to be some light at the end of the tunnel, with Chisenhall, Abreu and maybe Rivero there maybe some 'x' factors in there as well

Pitching depth worries me a little, we've got some nice arms but not #1 or 2 starters, hopefully Miller can get healthy once and for all and that may change.

I'm really hoping these guys just tank from here on in and we get the 1st pick next year so atleast we could draft that kid from SD State or Alex White from NC


I'm not in love with the deal myself - I just don't hate it.

But it amazed me how many people on both forums said they would have been happy if all Mark had gotten was LaPorta. I would have been thoroughly pissed and calling for Shapiro's head if that's all they had gotten. How anybody would have felt that was enough is shocking to me - and apparently Shapiro feels the same way I do.

But given that he got one of their top prospects and another in their top 10 along with a pretty solid young pitching prospect, I can't complain too loudly.
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Unread postby winker » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:22 pm

Our haul here compares favorably to the haul we got for Thome, and Manny.
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Unread postby petes999 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:56 pm

To put things into another perspective.....

Colon had 1-1/2 year left on his contract
CC only has 1/2 year left

Phillips 20th best prospect in 2002 per BA
LaPorta 23rd best prospect in 2008 per BA

Lee 11th best prospect for Montreal at start of season (yet rocketed up due to a great 02 in AA)
Bryson 11th best prospect for Brewers at the start of 2008 (though he may have lost luster as he is more in the reliever roll now and only a A prospect versus AA and is 10th on baseball prospectus)

Sizemore in A ball hit .258 and 0 HR
Green is in A ball and hitting well (was the 17th prospect by Baseball America but indications are he would have risen fast)

And we gave up Tim Drew who had his few ups and many downs, yet still had some hope of turning it around (did o.k. in relief for Montreal that year before tanking).

All in all, it seems somewhat comparable (Lee though may have a higher up side being a lefty than Green does - both being the fast risers in 2008). Now we know that Lee and Sizemore took off from hindsight. And, I would have loved to had a higher pitching prospect than Bryson (or felt better if he stayed in a starter's role this year). Yet, not bad for 1/2 year rental versus 1-1/2 year with Colon.

I wonder what NY would have done in a deal. I saw somewhere that we asked for Hughes and Jackson (like we wanted LaPorta and Gamel). Yet, what about Kennedy and Jackson? 2 Top 50 BA talents? Would they have done it?
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:58 pm

Just something to consider and compare: When Randy Johnson was dealt to Houston at the trade deadline in 1998, the Mariners got Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen and a PTBNL (John Halama).

In both cases, the pitchers are premier lefties, among the top 10 pitchers in the game, rentals for post-season pushes.

Seattle got 3 players of varied worth/ success. It can be argued that most of those players found greater after they left Seattle.
Houston did not win the Series (or even a playoff series) that season.

Time will tell how well both side did in the CC trade.
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Unread postby petes999 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:08 pm

Just looked up the rankings of the Johnson trade and Garcia, Guillen and Hallama were 6,7 and 8th best that year. That was a nice hull.

By the way Scott Elarton was the 2nd best prospect for Houston at the time....

You never know ...
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Unread postby Bigfist » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:55 pm

A little bit off topic..has anyone been moved to Cleveland from Buffalo or Akron to take CC's spot? Jeff Weaver?
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