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Coco trade a done deal!

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Coco trade a done deal!

Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:58 pm

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/NASApp ... p&c_id=cle

01/27/2006 4:08 PM ET
Pair of deals waiting on physical
Rhodes would go to Philly for Michaels, then Crisp to Boston
By Anthony Castrovince / MLB.com

CLEVELAND -- Arthur Rhodes' physical will determine whether or not the Coco Crisp-to-Boston deal finalizes or fizzles.

Rhodes was in Philadelphia on Friday afternoon taking a physical that would complete a trade sending the 36-year-old reliever from the Indians to the Phillies in exchange for outfielder Jason Michaels, according to a source familiar with the negotiations.

Once that deal goes through, the source said, the Indians and Red Sox would agree to a trade sending Crisp to the Red Sox.

The Indians would send the center fielder, reliever David Riske and backup catcher Josh Bard to Boston for reliever Guillermo Mota, third base prospect Andy Marte, catching prospect Kelly Shoppach and further compensation in the form of cash or a player to be named later.

That trade could need the approval of the Commissioner's office depending on the amount of the potential cash transaction.

But the whole house of cards hinged on the Rhodes physical.

Rhodes missed the second half of August with inflammation in his right knee. He also missed some of August and most of September because of the serious illness of a family member.

The Crisp trade rumors have taken on a life of their own in local and national media circles.

Earlier this week, both deals were expected to go down if Mota passed a physical in Cleveland on Tuesday. But when the Indians expressed concerns to the Red Sox about Mota's arm, the deal was reportedly dying.

Dying, that is, until the Red Sox stepped up their offer with the promise of further compensation.

Crisp, who hit .300 with 16 homers and 69 RBIs for the Indians in '05, would fill Boston's need for a center fielder and leadoff hitter now that Johnny Damon will be suiting up for the rival Yankees.

Michaels, who hit .304 with four homers and 31 RBIs, would likely take over Crisp's spot in left at Jacobs Field. He platooned with Kenny Lofton in center field for the Phillies last year.

Rhodes would fill the Phillies' need for a left-handed setup man. He went 3-1 with a 2.08 ERA in 47 relief appearances for the Tribe last season.

The biggest key to the deal, from the Indians' perspective, would be Marte, who is generally regarded as one of the game's top prospects. The Tribe has no viable third base option in the Minors, and Aaron Boone is only under contract through 2006, with a mutual option for 2007.

Marte hit .275 with 20 home runs and 74 RBIs for Triple-A Richmond in the Braves' farm system last season.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:18 pm

Hoynes says it is a done deal:

http://www.cleveland.com/newslogs/plain ... tml#108231

Friday, January 27, 2006

Done deal: Indians trade Crisp to Red Sox

8:37 p.m.

Paul Hoynes
Plain Dealer Reporter

The Coco Crisp trade is done, pending the approval of baseball Commissioner Bud Selig.

Left-hander Arthur Rhodes' physical was the only thing delaying the three-team deal, but the Phillies were expected to make the acquisition of the veteran reliever official at 8 p.m.

The Indians received outfielder Jason Michaels in exchange for Rhodes.That allowed the Indians to send Crisp, switch-hitting catcher Josh Bard and right-hander David Riske to Boston for third base prospect Andy Marte, catcher Kelly Shoppach, right-hander Guillermo Mota, cash and a player to be named. Boston right-hander Manny Delcarmen was not included in the deal.

The Indians will receive at least $1 million from the Red Sox. The exact amount is not known, but the commissioner must approve any deal in which more than $1 million in cash is involved.

The trade, which stalled in midweek, regained momentum Friday morning when Rhodes flew to Philadelphia for a physical.

The Associated Press reported the Indians agreed to Rhodes for Michaels portion of the trade pending his physical.Michaels will replace Crisp in left field.

The Indians believe Marte, scheduled to open the season at Class AAA Buffalo, will be their third baseman of the future. They think he could develop into the middle-of-the-order right-handed hitter they've lacked. Shoppach hit 26 homers at Class AAA Pawtucket last year. He will compete to be Victor Martinez's backup.The player to be named would come from a list of prospects made available to the Indians.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:40 pm

Now all they need is for Mota's arm to hold up. I really like this deal. Those are the two right handed bats this team lacked. How long and which one goes to first, Martinez or Shoppach?
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:51 pm

Pup wrote:Now all they need is for Mota's arm to hold up. I really like this deal. Those are the two right handed bats this team lacked. How long and which one goes to first, Martinez or Shoppach?


Neither goes to 1B.

Shoppach either is V-Mart's caddy and gives Wedge more confidence to sit V-Mart because of Shoppach's potent bat.......or they flip Shoppach in another deal now or later for a need.

Too many talented 1B in the system to move VMart or Shoppach to 1B. Three of our top 10 prospects are 1B (Garko, Head and Aubrey), and we have 5 in the top 30 (Mulhern #26 and Weglarz #27 I believe offhand).
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Unread postby pup » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:00 am

More solid info Consig. Anything new on the Kearns deal?
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:02 am

Nothing new on Kearns. I am curious to see how this potential deal manifests over the weekend. To me, Kearns and Weaver for Westbrrok is a nice option.

I like a lineup of:

1. Sizemore CF
2. Michaels LF
3. Peralta SS
4. Hafner DH
5. Martinez C
6. Kearns RF
7. Belliard 2B
8. Broussard 1B
9. Boone 3B

Perez subs for Broussard against lefties, and Blake rotates in the OF and at 3B. I'd prefer Marte over boone from the getgo, but we aren't eating Boone's $3.75M salary.
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Unread postby pup » Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:06 pm

Any chance the Reds deal turns into Westbrook and Boone for Kearns?
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:15 pm

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/13734936.htm

Posted on Sat, Jan. 28, 2006

Crisp, Rhodes trades madeWestbrook could be next in deal with Reds
By Sheldon Ocker
Beacon Journal sportswriter

CLEVELAND - This is beginning to look like the trade that would never end.

In addition to disposing of Coco Crisp and acquiring top third-base prospect Andy Marte from the Boston Red Sox on Friday night, the Indians shipped Arthur Rhodes to the Philadelphia Phillies in exchange for outfielder Jason Michaels.

That might not be the extent of Tribe General Manager Mark Shapiro's machinations. Cincinnati Reds interim General Manager Brad Kullman confirmed that Shapiro is proposing a deal that would bring power-hitting outfielder Austin Kearns to Cleveland and send right-handed starter Jake Westbrook to the Reds.

This precise swap reportedly was turned down last week by then-Cincinnati GM Dan O'Brien, before he was fired by new owner Bob Castellini. With a new man in the Reds front office, the attitude has changed.

Kullman said Friday that some Cincinnati baseball people were concerned Kearns' loss would be a serious blow to the attack. However, it's no secret that the Reds are desperate for starting pitching.

``A lot of teams are interested in Austin Kearns, and the Indians proposed that type of deal (Kearns for Westbrook),'' Kullman said. The GM added: ``If Jake could put us over the top this year, I'd jump at it. I won't say I'm not interested.''

As a matter of policy, Shapiro does not comment on possible trades or free-agent signings.

If the Tribe acquired Kearns, what would happen to Michaels, who batted .304 and posted an on-base percentage of .399 in 289 at-bats with the Phillies last year?

``Jason Michaels is a hard-nosed, tough player that complements our lineup extremely well,'' Shapiro said in a prepared statement. ``He has always been a tough out while recording a high on-base percentage and has the ability to play all three outfield positions well.''

The acquisition of Kearns probably would make Michaels the team's No. 4 outfielder, a role that he played for Philadelphia. That would allow Kearns to play every day, possibly in right, with Casey Blake moving to left.

In his first full season last year, Kearns, 25, batted .240 but hit 18 home runs with 67 RBI in 387 at-bats. A free swinger, to be sure, he struck out 107 times. Shapiro has been seeking a right-handed hitter with muscle for at least a year.

Losing Westbrook would leave a giant hole in Cleveland's rotation. According to a rival team, Shapiro has been in recent discussions with free-agent right-hander Jeff Weaver (14-11, 4.22 ERA for the Los Angeles Dodgers in 2005).

Weaver, 29, made $9.5 million last season, but the market for him has been thin, and he might be willing to take at least $1 million less on a one-year contract.


The cost of his salary would be offset by the departure of Rhodes ($3.7 million) and Westbrook ($4.25 million). Michaels will make $1.5 million this season.

The on-again, off-again deal with the Red Sox turned hot Friday. In addition to receiving Marte, who will start the season in Triple-A, the Indians obtained catching prospect Kelly Shoppach and reliever Guillermo Mota, whose fuzzy physical examination caused Shapiro to pass on the deal for one day.

Marte has been named the ninth-best prospect in the game by Baseball America.

``We are acquiring a potential impact player at a very difficult position to fill in Andy Marte,'' Shapiro said.

In addition to Crisp, Boston will receive reliever David Riske and backup catcher Josh Bard.

To compensate for concerns over Mota's right shoulder, Cleveland also will receive both a player to be named and cash, believed to be at least $1 million, which required the assent of the commissioner.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:59 pm

Already some rumors swirling about VMART going to first base this year.
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Unread postby furls » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:51 pm

Man I just dont like this deal. Coco was young, playing at a high level and improving. I also think that he had a lot of the intangibles that you look for in players. Ever watch him run on a ground ball hit to the left side of the infield? You don't see that kind of hustle much these days, and I think that kind of stuff is every bit as contagious as "albert Belle" or "Manny Ramirez" syndromes.

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Unread postby Lebowski » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:26 am

Support for Shapiro and the deal:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5290064
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Unread postby consigliere » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:53 pm

Not sure I see Crisp as improving. More like leveled out. Still, a pretty decent player if he can maintain his current production for 4-5 more years. He still is a pretty below average leadoff guy, which is something the Red Sox will find out. Just doesn't have the plate discipline to be a leadoff guy. And, if he hasn't learned such discipline, its not going to come now.

They'll find he fits more in the 2-hole.....which is where he excelled here.
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Unread postby furls » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:17 pm

Not sure I see Crisp as improving. More like leveled out.


He is 26 years old and entering his 3rd season as a full time starter (5th overall in the majors) it is probably a bit early to guess that he is done getting better. Granted we could use some power in the outfield, a LF that hits 16 HR and drives in 70 is not really what you need in the lineup, but I just loved his tenacity.

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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:00 am

Furls wrote:He is 26 years old and entering his 3rd season as a full time starter (5th overall in the majors) it is probably a bit early to guess that he is done getting better.


Yeah, he is still relatively young. However, we really saw no increase in production last year. Crisp is a very good player, but I think right now what you see is what you get. He isn't going to get a whole lot better. If anything, the only thing that will help him improve is that the park effects in Fenway is a hitter's dream.

Coco's last two seasons:
2004: .297/.344/.446/.790 with 15 HRs and 71 RBIs in 491 at bats
2005: .300/.345/.465/.810 with 16 HRs and 69 RBIs in 594 at bats

Average and on-base percentage remained pretty much the same, his slugging percentage slightly increased as a result of more doubles of which caused a bump in OPS. Although, his HR/AB and RBI/AB dropped significantly in 2005.

Crisp looks like a .345/.800 OBP/OPS guy with 16 HR and 70 RBI production. That's nice to have. But to get what we got for him is still amazing. To think we traded Bartolo Colon for only a little bit more in talent.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:44 pm

Consigliere wrote:Crisp looks like a .345/.800 OBP/OPS guy with 16 HR and 70 RBI production. That's nice to have. But to get what we got for him is still amazing. To think we traded Bartolo Colon for only a little bit more in talent.

Oh, now that's just hyperbole. Marte doesn't project out significantly greater than Sizemore did/does. In fact, Marte doesn't project out to more than Bran Bran Phillips did at the time. You've got two ways to evaluate this, one with more hindsight than the other:

Evaluating at the time of the deal:

Marte = Phillips + X
Lee = Mota + 5X
Sizemore = Shoppach + 50X

Evaluating with what we know now:

Marte = Sizemore (+/- epsilon)
Lee = Mota + 10X
Shoppach = Phillips + X

But more to the point, each of the players acquired from Montreal had or has the potential to be an All-Star calibre player. Only one of the players from Boston does.

Edit: Somehow you have to work the algebra of giving up Riske to get Mota as well, although I'm not sure how to do it. Giving up Bard was painless.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:08 pm

LOL Buff. You know I am a glass 3/4 full guy....or filled to the rim guy.....no hyperbole here...I promise. :wink: I'm just looking at the general principles in the Colon and Crisp trades.

#1 Prospect Marte vs. #1 prospect Phillips.....Marte is viewed with the higher ceiling than Phillips was at the time.....and even if Phillips ceiling was high, I think a 3B with pop and a slick glove trumps a SS with a slick glove.

Sizemore was #3 in the Expos system at the time, and Lee was #11. We got Shoppach, who was #7 in the Red Sox system. And, there is an unknown PTBNL who probably is somewhere in the Red Sox Top 30 (we were hard after Delcarmen, their #8 guy....so we probably settled for a list of guys to choose in the 10-20 range).

When the Indians made the Colon deal, the Expos had the #16 ranked system in 2002...in 2006, the Red Sox have the #7 ranked system. So, to me, the rankings of Marte at #1 and Shoppach at #7 in an overall ranked system of 7th carries more weight than Phillips #1, Sizemore #3, and Lee #11 in a 16th ranked system.

I view the pickup of Marte > Phillips. Shoppach > Lee because of the rankings. The difference here, is the addition of Sizemore in the Colon deal puts the Colon deal over the top. Whoever that 3rd player (PTBNL) is in the Crisp deal , adds to the value. Again, I just think the value we got in return for Crisp is not far off from what we got in the Colon deal in June 2002.
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Unread postby furls » Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:20 pm

There is value in a known commodity. You are saying that Coco is a done deal at .300 and 15-20 HR and 70-80 RBI. That in and of itself adds to his value. He has achieved this already. We traded him for a "projection" and frankly those dont always work out, especially in baseball.

He may be great in the future, and that is all well and good, but this team can win in the here and now. Frankly they had better do it soon before Dolan sells off the payroll and talent again.

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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:35 pm

Consigliere wrote:Shoppach, who was #7 in the Red Sox system.

...in 2006, the Red Sox have the #7 ranked system.

I am totally missing the "it factor" with Shoppach. I would have said that Shoppach at #7 in the Red Sox system is more indicative of the lack of propsects there, but if they're ranked #7 ... man, I just can't grok that. If Shoppach were our #7 prospect, I'd be furious. I just don't understand how these things are evaluated, apparently.

Kelly Shoppach is old for a prospect, and can't hit. He can't hit! Don't give me this "has some pop" crap, the man can't fucking hit. When a backup catcher is your #7 prospect, I'm sorry, you have a crummy farm system.

I am not saying that we shouldn't have gotten Shoppach or that Bard was better (because he isn't: Bard is a schmoe), but EXPECTING success from Kelly Shoppach is a really bad bet. If he is even Dan Wilson I'll be pleasantly (but significantly) surprised.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:04 pm

Furls - they can still win this year. The procudtion they will get out of Jason Michaels will come close enough to a wash that you won't even notice it. If Coco was going to improve more this year, the same can be said of everyone else, VMart, Hafner, Jhonny, and Grady. That will make up for the difference between Coco and Michaels.

I don't unserstand the negativity towards this trade. There is a couple of huge holes in the future of this team. A bat from the right side of the plate is one of them. A third baseman is another. They patched both of those holes in one move. They still need an outfielder and a first baseman, but they needed those before the trade.

With the money they saved by trading Coco, they are even more able to get an outfielder in July. If they are in contention, which I believe they will be, someone will be brought in. There are alot of rumors going around that Bobby Abreu will be available. So look at this trade with that included. If Marte is ready, and they could get the Phillies to take Boone with a couple of these prospects everyone here hates that they have acquired, for Abreu, you have to like it alot more.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:23 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:I am not saying that we shouldn't have gotten Shoppach or that Bard was better (because he isn't: Bard is a schmoe), but EXPECTING success from Kelly Shoppach is a really bad bet. If he is even Dan Wilson I'll be pleasantly (but significantly) surprised.


I'm not really sure what I expect from Shoppach. I mean, really, all I know is what I am being told from Kline or reading from BPro, Callis, Shapiro, etc. Haven't seen this guy play one game yet.

But, he has to have some value to be #7 in the 7th ranked farm system.

Perry likes him putting him 83rd in his Top 100 (isn't Perry a BPro guy?):

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5240286

Callis likes him, calling him a "solid regular in the majors":

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/c ... edsox.html

The Ks are a problem, but I remain optimistic he can provide a lot more use off the bench than Josh Bard. Or, hell, be used as a valuable trading chip.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:30 pm

Pup wrote:They still need an outfielder and a first baseman, but they needed those before the trade.


While I can see where they still may need some help in RF and 1B in 2006, I think help at these two positions is on the horizon with one of Snyder/Gutierrez in RF and one of Head/Mulhern/Aubrey/Garko at 1B.

There are alot of rumors going around that Bobby Abreu will be available. So look at this trade with that included. If Marte is ready, and they could get the Phillies to take Boone with a couple of these prospects everyone here hates that they have acquired, for Abreu, you have to like it alot more.


There is a strong rumor going around that the White Sox and Phillies are close to a deal of Jose Contreras and Jermaine Dye for Abreu and Gavin Floyd.
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There's old and there's old for a catcher

Unread postby Jon Cohodas » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:39 pm

I am totally missing the "it factor" with Shoppach. I would have said that Shoppach at #7 in the Red Sox system is more indicative of the lack of propsects there, but if they're ranked #7 ... man, I just can't grok that. If Shoppach were our #7 prospect, I'd be furious. I just don't understand how these things are evaluated, apparently.

Kelly Shoppach is old for a prospect, and can't hit. He can't hit! Don't give me this "has some pop" crap, the man can't fucking hit. When a backup catcher is your #7 prospect, I'm sorry, you have a crummy farm system.


Others who practice the black art may be able to answer better, but it was always my understanding that because of the unusual defensive responsibilities and lower hitting expectations, catching prospects are more likely to be late bloomers.

Also, he may not be VMart, but catchers that slug .500 do not grow on trees. According to here http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=l_bat&lid=117 he was 11th in the IL in slugging, just ahead of Marte and Garko. He was 6th in HRs despite not spending the whole year on the farm. I think that is fairly valuable for a catcher.
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Re: There's old and there's old for a catcher

Unread postby consigliere » Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:32 pm

Jon Cohodas wrote:He was 6th in HRs despite not spending the whole year on the farm. I think that is fairly valuable for a catcher.


Yeah, he put up some good power numbers. I will say, however, my enthusiam with those numbers are tempered with the fact that McCoy Stadium (where AAA Pawtucket plays) I believe is one of the most hitter friendly parks in all of baseball. I read somewhere where the park effects there are like 1.51 or something, which is insane....Buff can probably clear that up.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:48 pm

The Phillies are looking to rebuild a little bit, why in the world would they be including Gavin Floyd in a trade?
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:54 pm

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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:54 pm

Pup wrote:The Phillies are looking to rebuild a little bit, why in the world would they be including Gavin Floyd in a trade?

Because Bobby Abreu makes one Burkina Faso per annum?
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Unread postby furls » Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:23 pm

anyone care to rethink this?

motta sucks
michaels (crisps replacement) is ordinary
shoppach?

and marte?

BAD TRADE
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:21 pm

Furls wrote:anyone care to rethink this?

motta sucks

Which equals Riske
Furls wrote:michaels (crisps replacement) is ordinary

Which equals Crisp
Furls wrote:shoppach?

Which equals Bard
Furls wrote:and marte?

Who is, essentially, free
Furls wrote:BAD TRADE

Interesting conclusion.
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Unread postby furls » Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:04 am

Furls wrote:

and marte?


Who is, essentially, free


Free garbage is still garbage.


Furls wrote:
anyone care to rethink this?

motta sucks

Which equals Riske


Mota is not fit to hold Riske's jock. It has been a long time since I have seen an indians reliever this bad. Brings back shades of 1985-1990.

Here is where the whole thing breaks down, we gave up arthur rhodes for the privilege of seeing Jason Michaels (I will give you that offensively coco and michaels are a bit of a wash, excluding crip's speed) play average left field. Having Crisp in left was like having 2 CF's. So the net sum of these deals?????

Total loss:

Michaels for Crisp: wash offensively, loss defensively, loss in the clubhouse
Rhodes for Michaels: Given the bullpen situation right now....
Riske for Mota: Mota needs to go back to A ball.
Andy Marte? Grossly overrated prospect (if he was so freaking great why is he now on his 3rd team in 3 years?

Even if you believe that Marte will be a great player in the future (I am not convinced, guys who hit 280 with about 115k's in their 3rd year at the A/AA level dont really impress me), he is a "down the line" guy and this was a team that could compete THIS YEAR.

While they are at it, they can send Johnson back to instructional league ball. I think the indians may do better forcing the other team to hit from a tee vice having Johnson start.
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Unread postby ACrank » Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:12 am

Andy Marte? Grossly overrated prospect (if he was so freaking great why is he now on his 3rd team in 3 years?


Ever look up the trades Paul Konerko was involved in? he went from the Dodgers to the Reds to the WhiteSox in a years time....

Atlanta traded Marte for a shortstop....

Boston got Marte specifically to tempt Cleveland into trading Crisp, and did so

its not that difficult to figure out....
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Unread postby furls » Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:04 pm

Marte is overrated, teams figure it out and trade him.

its not that difficult to figure out....


Who is having trouble figuring it out? If you have a "great" prospect than you dont trade him unless you are getting something totally awesome in return. He was dealt to the tribe for a what some of you are calling an average outfielder, either you are wrong and crisp is better than previously stated, the red sox are stupid, or the marte is overrated. You pick.
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Ok

Unread postby ACrank » Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:01 pm

if the RedSox don't trade Marte who plays CF for them?

The same combination of no names who played for them while Coco was injured.

Sorry, i guess you must be one of those Indian "fans" who think anything the Indians FO does is wrong.

How old is Marte again?

NO - Crisp is not an average OF. The RedSox valued him higher than the Indians - with the Indians he was going to be a #2 hitting LF, with the Sox he will be a leadoffhitting CF. Which is more valuable, as a whole?

Like i said before - its not that hard to figure out.

But apparently its a little harder to figure out then you want to make it.

FYI - for the other poster who questioned about Marte being traded twice:

July 4, 1998: Traded by the Los Angeles Dodgers with Dennys Reyes to the Cincinnati Reds for Jeff Shaw.

November 11, 1998: Traded by the Cincinnati Reds to the Chicago White Sox for Mike Cameron.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/konerpa01.shtml

Edit - found a player who was traded three times within 18 months:

March 24, 2002: Traded by the Montreal Expos with Jimmy Serrano to the New York Mets for Lou Collier.

July 31, 2002: Traded by the New York Mets with Josh Reynolds (minors) and Bobby Jones to the San Diego Padres for Steve Reed and Jason Middlebrook.

August 26, 2003: Traded by the San Diego Padres with a player to be named later and Oliver Perez to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Brian Giles. The San Diego Padres sent Corey Stewart (minors) (October 2, 2003) to the Pittsburgh Pirates to complete the trade.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bayja01.shtml

So, if anything, being traded a few times within a small time frame, could actually turn out to be a good thing.
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Unread postby furls » Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:54 pm

Sorry, i guess you must be one of those Indian "fans" who think anything the Indians FO does is wrong.


Do we know each other? Nope, so how bout if you quit trying to guess what kind of fan I am. I sat in the stands in '85, '86, '87, '88... etc. I grew up watching this team and I have also grown up watching them make stupid trades. You telling me what kind of "fan" I am is like me telling you to quit sipping the koolaid or to get off shapiro's tip.

This was a STUPID trade. This team is not "building for the future." This is a team that could/should win now. Adding Marte at the expense of the difference in play between crisp and michaels is STUPID for a team on the cusp. It does not make any sense. This team should be doing what it can to win now before revenue issues cost us more good players.

Small/Mid market teams have 0 room for error. Cleveland was an exception to the small market rules for a while, when the indians sold out every game, but now cash is tighter and we need to seize every opportunity to win. To wait on this team would be just another sad chapter in Indians history.

There are some on this very board that said that Michaels vs. Crisp was a wash and I disagree whole heartedly. Therefore, I believe this was a stupid trade.
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Unread postby ACrank » Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:11 am

Furls wrote:
Sorry, i guess you must be one of those Indian "fans" who think anything the Indians FO does is wrong.


Do we know each other? Nope, so how bout if you quit trying to guess what kind of fan I am. I sat in the stands in '85, '86, '87, '88... etc. I grew up watching this team and I have also grown up watching them make stupid trades. You telling me what kind of "fan" I am is like me telling you to quit sipping the koolaid or to get off shapiro's tip.


Nah - the stupidity of that last sentence speaks volumes about what type of fan you are.

This was a STUPID trade. This team is not "building for the future." This is a team that could/should win now. Adding Marte at the expense of the difference in play between crisp and michaels is STUPID for a team on the cusp. It does not make any sense. This team should be doing what it can to win now before revenue issues cost us more good players.


Funny - professionals, the ones who get paid to cover this game, actually thought it was a good trade. And it still is. Crisp and Sizemore were duplicated players - the Indians traded the one with less value to them for something to fill a long term need. Sounds like a good trade to me.


Small/Mid market teams have 0 room for error. Cleveland was an exception to the small market rules for a while, when the indians sold out every game, but now cash is tighter and we need to seize every opportunity to win. To wait on this team would be just another sad chapter in Indians history./quote]

I seriously doubt a healthy Coco would have made that much difference at this point in time. What would have been stupid is not taking advantage of the situation and keeping Coco even tho the Sox were willing to overpay to get him in trade. (PS - dont tell me about Small/Mid Market teams, friend - i wrote the book on Small/Mid Market teams.)

There are some on this very board that said that Michaels vs. Crisp was a wash and I disagree whole heartedly. Therefore, I believe this was a stupid trade.


If the trade was Micahels for Coco i would agree with you - last i checked it wasn't. The truth is - Coco wasn't going to be on this team much longer anyhow - with the organizational depth in OF and Coco hitting arby/free agent status - he was going to be traded sooner or later anyhow. All they did was push up the clock a year sooner to get something they needed longterm.

At the time i wrote that i would have rather seen the Indians hold onto Coco for another year. But I also understood getting a talent like Marte was not a slam dunk in a years time, making the trade of Coco a necessity. This trade is going to pay off nicely in the future - and unfortunately when you are a Non Major Market team you have to make trades like that.
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Unread postby furls » Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:40 pm

Furls wrote:
Quote:
Sorry, i guess you must be one of those Indian "fans" who think anything the Indians FO does is wrong.


Do we know each other? Nope, so how bout if you quit trying to guess what kind of fan I am. I sat in the stands in '85, '86, '87, '88... etc. I grew up watching this team and I have also grown up watching them make stupid trades. You telling me what kind of "fan" I am is like me telling you to quit sipping the koolaid or to get off shapiro's tip.


Nah - the stupidity of that last sentence speaks volumes about what type of fan you are.


Quoted again for emphasis

Nah - the stupidity of that last sentence speaks volumes about what type of fan you are.


speaking of stupidity: You started this little thing with the actual definition of stupidity:

Sorry, i guess you must be one of those Indian "fans" who think anything the Indians FO does is wrong


I typed this nice and slow so hopefully you can follow:

"secundum quid", is the logical fallacy of reaching an inductive generalization based on too little evidence. It commonly involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population

THat is the point that I was attempting to imply in my last post. Here it is explicitly written for you.

See, you are falling into the typical trap of all board trolls.... Can't debate the point intelligibly? Screw it, attack the poster! Please, I implore you, tell me what was stupid about my retort?

Do we know each other? Nope, so how bout if you quit trying to guess what kind of fan I am. I sat in the stands in '85, '86, '87, '88... etc. I grew up watching this team and I have also grown up watching them make stupid trades. You telling me what kind of "fan" I am is like me telling you to quit sipping the koolaid or to get off shapiro's tip.


I was just pointing out your logical fallacy, faulty induction.

Funny - professionals, the ones who get paid to cover this game, actually thought it was a good trade. And it still is. Crisp and Sizemore were duplicated players - the Indians traded the one with less value to them for something to fill a long term need. Sounds like a good trade to me.


Funny professionals swore up and down that reggie bush would go number one and that Al Gore would carry florida. Should I email President Gore or call Reggie's agent to let him know that he should actually be reaping the rewards of a number 1 pick?

I seriously doubt a healthy Coco would have made that much difference at this point in time. What would have been stupid is not taking advantage of the situation and keeping Coco even tho the Sox were willing to overpay to get him in trade. (PS - dont tell me about Small/Mid Market teams, friend - i wrote the book on Small/Mid Market teams.)


How much did the Indians miss the playoffs by last year? not really much of a difference between making the playoffs and missing them last year, just a couple of games. Coco is a couple of games per year better than Michaels. Whether it was the stolen base, or the pitching change that never happened because crisp is a switch hitter, or the fly ball that crisp got to that michaels didnt.... the difference isnt much, but it is real.

If the trade was Micahels for Coco i would agree with you - last i checked it wasn't. The truth is - Coco wasn't going to be on this team much longer anyhow - with the organizational depth in OF and Coco hitting arby/free agent status - he was going to be traded sooner or later anyhow. All they did was push up the clock a year sooner to get something they needed longterm.


I never said that Crisp was traded for Michaels. What was implied was that the play of Crisp vs the play of Michaels was a wash. It clearly is NOT. As for the long term signability of Crisp... I never said that we needed to keep Coco or that we should not have traded him. I am fine with trading Coco. I love his play but as you said, he and sizemore are almost the same player (sizemore has more of an upside clearly).

At the time i wrote that i would have rather seen the Indians hold onto Coco for another year. But I also understood getting a talent like Marte was not a slam dunk in a years time, making the trade of Coco a necessity. This trade is going to pay off nicely in the future - and unfortunately when you are a Non Major Market team you have to make trades like that


This is year we disagree completely. I personally believe that small/mid market teams need to seize every opportunity they can to win. This team was only one or two players away, and hell crisp could've helped them land one of them. My problem with the trade is that the indians should be competing now, not making trades that get them a guy who will (or will not) contribute in 3 years. If Marte comes to the majors and hits major league pitching just like he hits minor league pitching (a very big if) next year, then he will be an above average hitting 3rd baseman. Yay. In the mean time it cost us another year, an opportunity that small/mid market teams can't count on.


(PS - dont tell me about Small/Mid Market teams, friend - i wrote the book on Small/Mid Market teams.)


What is the title? I ran out of shit paper and I am sure that it is probably cheaper, if it is still in print. For if you had infact written the book on small market teams, then you would know that the opportunities for small market teams are fleeting at best. The only ways to generate momentum for a small market team is to gain national recognition through accomplishment (reaching the playoffs, sunday night games etc.) and increasing ticket sales (something that has been very sluggish in cleveland) to increase revenue which can then be reinvested back into the franchise.

Those things require winning when you can, before your players get too expensive for you to retain, then you end up in a perpetual rebuilding cycle, always just a couple pieces from making a run.





[/b][/quote]
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Unread postby ACrank » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:33 pm

I hope you realize that with all the hot air and blather you expended trying to show me i was wrong about you - you just seem to be showing me i was right about you.

How much did the Indians miss the playoffs by last year? not really much of a difference between making the playoffs and missing them last year, just a couple of games. Coco is a couple of games per year better than Michaels. Whether it was the stolen base, or the pitching change that never happened because crisp is a switch hitter, or the fly ball that crisp got to that michaels didnt.... the difference isnt much, but it is real.


I'd love to see what Win Shares would say about this. Honestly, i don't know. I still think there isn't that much of a difference just isolating the two of them, but i have nothing substantial to base that on.

I never said that Crisp was traded for Michaels


Nah, you all but said it. Did a great job of not saying it. (You in politics by any chance? Lol)

What was implied was that the play of Crisp vs the play of Michaels was a wash. It clearly is NOT.


I wasn't on this board at the time the trade was made, so i can't comment on what people on this board were saying. I can tell you what people on other boards said, and why they said it. It has to do with comparing Michaels and Crisps OBP and OBS - where Michaels was actually slightly higher than Crisp, and that those are stats where you really need to base your comparisons/better stats for a #2 hitter than just HRs and RBIS.

I can see the logic behind that - my concern was that the stats that Michaels had were based on part time duty (i don't think he has had more than 129 games in one year) and that becoming a fulltime player and moving to a different league might cause problems.

As for the long term signability of Crisp... I never said that we needed to keep Coco or that we should not have traded him. I am fine with trading Coco. I love his play but as you said, he and sizemore are almost the same player (sizemore has more of an upside clearly).


Then why don't you like the trade again? Do you think the Indians could have gotten more for Coco? Straight up i would agree with you. Unfortunately being a non major market team i don't know as a Coco for one player trade would have solved much of anything - and still left a long term need unfilled.


his is year we disagree completely. I personally believe that small/mid market teams need to seize every opportunity they can to win. This team was only one or two players away, and hell crisp could've helped them land one of them. My problem with the trade is that the indians should be competing now, not making trades that get them a guy who will (or will not) contribute in 3 years. If Marte comes to the majors and hits major league pitching just like he hits minor league pitching (a very big if) next year, then he will be an above average hitting 3rd baseman. Yay. In the mean time it cost us another year, an opportunity that small/mid market teams can't count on.


Ah ok - you think a player who is 21 and in AAA will contribute in 3 years? You also think the Indians can now just completely ignore that they have to keep picking up young talent. (This is a switch from another board i am on where the posters there want to keep the Indians in a perminant rebuild mode) Thats nice, and in theory you are right - but you have to look at the whole picture and look at what is best for the team. Its my opinion that best long term sometimes wins out - when the potential of what you are getting is just too good to pass up. Marte fits that perfectly.

Now it would be a heck of a lot better had Marte continued to hit like he did in ST (I wasn't posting here then either but i had a few discussions with people who were so prone to dump Boone that they wanted Marte on the team at all costs. Unfortunately i knew that Marte wasn't facing the same type of talent he would be facing in the majors and would need that time in the minors. So far he seems to be proving me right, unfortuanately, but he does seem to be coming on and i suspect he will be contributing to the Indians this season with him becoming a starter/full time player in 2007 - 2 years ahead of schedule.



What is the title?


Stay tuned - you will be reading it on an Indians forum near and dear to you.



For if you had infact written the book on small market teams, then you would know that the opportunities for small market teams are fleeting at best. The only ways to generate momentum for a small market team is to gain national recognition through accomplishment (reaching the playoffs, sunday night games etc.) and increasing ticket sales (something that has been very sluggish in cleveland) to increase revenue which can then be reinvested back into the franchise.


I believe attendance is up over last year, is it not?

Actually, the smartest thing for a non major market team to do, and the one thing the Indians under John Hart neglected to do, is to keep talent flowing into the farm system. Not overlooking the major league team, but not forgetting it either.

If that job is done correctly, the team will win, the fans should come, and the revonue will increase. I am sure you are (painfully, no doubt) aware that the era of the $90-100 million payroll are long gone, but $70+ million dollar payrolls should be a regular occurance starting witht he 07 season.


Those things require winning when you can, before your players get too expensive for you to retain, then you end up in a perpetual rebuilding cycle, always just a couple pieces from making a run.


Never gonna get away from that completely, until MLB decides to level the financial playing field. But i do agree the era of major league talent JUST for prospects is, or should be, long over.

What concerns me is that the Indains will stay on the fringe of contending this year and then find themselves opening 07 with a group of young talent that will mean either more free agent spending (to bring in players to support the young talent) or another possible set back year (as the kids now in Buffalo, and some in Akron, adjust to playing major league ball). It remains to be seen how the Indians tackle the issues taht come up, but if anyone thinks any baseball team is perfect - they have another thing coming.

Its clear the Indians are on the right path even if tonight is turning out bad.
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Unread postby furls » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:26 am

I'd love to see what Win Shares would say about this. Honestly, i don't know. I still think there isn't that much of a difference just isolating the two of them, but i have nothing substantial to base that on.


I dont really care what Win Shares has to say about it. I am quite certain that they don't have the subjective interest in the Indians that we all do. It is impossible to quantify the value of a well placed bunt or a legged out infield single (common events for Crisp).

Then why don't you like the trade again? Do you think the Indians could have gotten more for Coco? Straight up i would agree with you. Unfortunately being a non major market team i don't know as a Coco for one player trade would have solved much of anything - and still left a long term need unfilled.


I am not certain if the Indians could have gotten more in the "Now" for Coco, but I certainly wouldn't have downgraded in a position simply to deal him considering how narrowly we missed the playoffs last year. Yes we got a solid prospect, but at the cost of what will probably be a couple of important games this year.

Ah ok - you think a player who is 21 and in AAA will contribute in 3 years? You also think the Indians can now just completely ignore that they have to keep picking up young talent. (This is a switch from another board i am on where the posters there want to keep the Indians in a perminant rebuild mode) Thats nice, and in theory you are right - but you have to look at the whole picture and look at what is best for the team. Its my opinion that best long term sometimes wins out - when the potential of what you are getting is just too good to pass up. Marte fits that perfectly


Well he may come right up in 2007 as you predict and play. Heck he could even bust out some pretty good rookie of the year stats, but that is a bit of a bold perdiction, it is hard to project that type of success on anyone especially a 21 year old with a tendancy to strike out quite a bit. Don't get me wrong, if Marte was batting .350 in AAA and not K'ing so much I would say HELL YES, it is worth sacrficing this year, but he is not. Don't get me wrong, I do not think he is a bad player. That is not my problem with the deal, my problem is sacrificing one of those fleeting chances for a small market team.

I believe attendance is up over last year, is it not?


Yes it is, but don't kid yourself we are just a mediocre season away from sending it back to where it was. Cleveland fans are fickle, there are those of us who have been going for the last 20 years regardless of W's and L's and while I lived abroad I listened to many a game over the internet. Frankly, the city of Cleveland is struggling economically and the disposable income is not there the way that it has been in the past, but the people will find a way to come for a winner.

Never gonna get away from that completely, until MLB decides to level the financial playing field.


AMEN, but it wont happen until teams like KC and the brewers and a host of others are filing for bankrupcy and even then they will just receive fleeting bandaid (minimal benefits). Just enough to keep them around as a AAA system for the big markets.

What concerns me is that the Indains will stay on the fringe of contending this year and then find themselves opening 07 with a group of young talent that will mean either more free agent spending (to bring in players to support the young talent) or another possible set back year (as the kids now in Buffalo, and some in Akron, adjust to playing major league ball). It remains to be seen how the Indians tackle the issues taht come up, but if anyone thinks any baseball team is perfect - they have another thing coming.


I am pretty sure that this essentially what I have been trying to say. I am disappointed that the Indians by one means or another did not make the moves to compete NOW. WHile they have the viable nucleus for it. Yes we have some of these guys locked up long term, but in 3 years are we going to be able to afford C.C. and some of the other parts of this team? I doubt it and thus it will be back to rebuilding. I wonder what the Yankee pinstrips or Red Sox uniform will look like on CC when he is commanding $15million a year as a 29 year old left handed ace.

our opinions do not vary by much. Had you not opened your post by pigeonholing me into a group of fans that I do not belong too then maybe our dialog may have been more civil. I disagree with the philosophy behind this trade, as do many other cleveland fans. (not because I love coco, not because I hate the FO). I disagree with it because it puts off making a run. At some point you have to commit to winning now. The team is already plenty young. A veteran or two (particularly in the bullpen would have been nice).

Nah, you all but said it. Did a great job of not saying it. (You in politics by any chance? Lol)


In a sense they were swapped for each other. Coco used to play left field here, Michaels does now. (I know that they were not actually traded for each other). Maybe I should have explained that point more explicitly. No I dont work in politics, I am about as far removed from politics as you can be.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:09 am

Good discussion. My only point would be this. Do you think not having Coco Crisp in left field has ANYTHING to do with the current state of the Indians? I'm not sure if that is even in the top 5 reasons.

I do not believe that too many teams had Crisp "rated" as highly as Boston. He fit an exact need, for them, so they were willing to overpay for him.

Andy Marte is not off to the best of starts in AAA, but he is not the first player to struggle for a bit after such a crazy off-season. He appears to be pressing a little bit, trying to live up to the hype. The Indians have asked him to make an effort of hitting to all fields (which is good), but that can also lead to lower numbers during the process. I wouldn't jump off his train just yet.
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Unread postby furls » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:32 pm

Do you think not having Coco Crisp in left field has ANYTHING to do with the current state of the Indians? I'm not sure if that is even in the top 5 reasons.


Good question and I would say the answer is probably no. The Indians real problem right now is pitching. Lee and Westbrook have struggled and frankly the bull pen SUCKS.

Another interesting problem this year has been in the Indians inability to do the small things that make the difference between winning and losing close games. Things like scoring a runner from 3rd with one out or moving the runner over in the late innings.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:40 pm

Another interesting problem this year has been in the Indians inability to do the small things


I don't think this is new. The last couple of years, I believe they have been one of the worst teams in MLB at doing these types of things. And I don't think I need to say where that type of direction should, but does not, come from.
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Unread postby ACrank » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:05 pm

I am disappointed that the Indians by one means or another did not make the moves to compete NOW.


Not sure what else they could have done. They made offers to Giles, Ryan, Hofffman and Nomar - all were at least equal if not more then what the players ended up signing for....

I wonder what the Yankee pinstrips or Red Sox uniform will look like on CC when he is commanding $15million a year as a 29 year old left handed ace.


You mean like the Yankees were going to sign Colon?

dont really care what Win Shares has to say about it. I am quite certain that they don't have the subjective interest in the Indians that we all do.


Make up your mind - are you trying to be objective or subjective here? Win Shares might actually prove your point, you know? :)

our opinions do not vary by much. Had you not opened your post by pigeonholing me into a group of fans that I do not belong too then maybe our dialog may have been more civil.


I honestly doubt it. Your original post on the trade as well as your insipid/immature comment toward me kind of has me thinking i was still correct in my original judgement. But i am willing to let bygones be bygones.


In a sense they were swapped for each other. Coco used to play left field here, Michaels does now.


This is a problem with trying to analyze the trade in that fashion - you have to look at the whole picture and just not parts of it.

Do you think not having Coco Crisp in left field has ANYTHING to do with the current state of the Indians? I'm not sure if that is even in the top 5 reasons.


Good question. It might be #6, but with this teams ability to score runs, not even sure i would rate it that highly.

You might be better asking: Could the Indians have gotten anyone for Coco in a 1 on 1 swap who could have helped this team? I really don't think so.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:10 pm

You might be better asking: Could the Indians have gotten anyone for Coco in a 1 on 1 swap who could have helped this team? I really don't think so.


I think there might be one answer, but it was never considered at the time as far as I know and could be the definition of hindsight being 20/20, but Bronson Arroyo wouldn't look bad.
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Unread postby furls » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:30 pm

I honestly doubt it. Your original post on the trade as well as your insipid/immature comment toward me kind of has me thinking i was still correct in my original judgement. But i am willing to let bygones be bygones.


I am not the one that started this dialogue with unbased cheapshots:

Sorry, i guess you must be one of those Indian "fans" who think anything the Indians FO does is wrong.


and followed it up with yet another cheapshot:

Nah - the stupidity of that last sentence speaks volumes about what type of fan you are


So don't write to me about maturity.






I asked if anyone was rethinking their position on this trade. I personally am not, I still dont like it, and unless marte proves to be the great 3rd baseman of the future that you project then I will not.

My personal guess? Marte turns out to be a be... who knows
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Unread postby ACrank » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:53 pm

Perhaps not, but you carried the discussion to new lows:

You telling me what kind of "fan" I am is like me telling you to quit sipping the koolaid or to get off shapiro's tip.


That is an extremely stupid sentence, friend, and i stand by what i said.

And anyone with any reasonable amount of intelligence knows that a trade like this can't be judged after half a season.

But once again i am willing to let bygones be bygones and hope we can confine our discussion to intelligent baseball talk.
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Unread postby furls » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:38 pm

But once again i am willing to let bygones be bygones and hope we can confine our discussion to intelligent baseball talk.


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Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:43 am

BTW - Andy Marte has homered in 4 of his last 6 games!
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:30 am

Marte has now homered in 5 straight games....and has 8 HRs in the last 9 games.
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Unread postby furls » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:03 pm

maybe it is time to make some personnel moves and call him up. Aaron Boone is not going to get any better, not saying he is bad, but there is no value added to this team by having him in the lineup everyday. There could be some value added to this team by getting Marte up now.
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Unread postby ACrank » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:06 pm

Marte is going to be in the next wave of call ups - that will happen sometime around the trading deadline depending on what happens between now and then.
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