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Firing Wedge

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Firing Wedge

Unread postby consigliere » Fri May 12, 2006 9:18 am

Good article Sykes. Some comments:

Now in 2006, we are seeing the same problems with in game pitching changes that we say in ’04. What good is a manager if he only gets wins based on having guys play out their ass? If that is the case, why even have a manager?


I'm not sure I can agree with this. I'm not sure Bobby Cox, LaRussa or Guillen could handle this pitching staff right now. Sometime it just is NOT the manager's fault, and this is one case (the pitching staff) where it isn't. Bad bullpens typically make managers look bad (remember the Seattle pens when Piniella was there?).

I've seen Wedge try to stick it out with starters to try and get them through 6-7 innings.....when that hasn't worked, I've also seen him turn to the bullpen in the 6-7 innings.....it just doesn't matter, because in both scenarios, his pitchers just are not performing.

The handling of the pitching staff at this point falls on the players themselves if you ask me, or even Shapiro since he assembled this group.

but every once in a while, it might not be a bad idea to attempt a hit and run. Or maybe call for a sacrifice bunt.


Agreed on hitting and running.....although this isn't a high contact laden lineup (lots of swing and miss guys). But, if you ask me, we actually sac bunt (or attempt it) too much.

And, to me, when you are getting pounded by the opposition, you can't sacrifice outs. You need all the outs you can to keep hitting and having big innings like your opposition is doing to you. Right now, I am only bunting in the 8th/9th inning of a game where we are down up/down 1 or tied.

(Other than that, I agree on the piece....)
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Unread postby pup » Fri May 12, 2006 10:49 am

I'm not sure I can agree with this. I'm not sure Bobby Cox, LaRussa or Guillen could handle this pitching staff right now. Sometime it just is NOT the manager's fault, and this is one case (the pitching staff) where it isn't. Bad bullpens typically make managers look bad (remember the Seattle pens when Piniella was there?).


Touche, my friend. I believe a good manager makes his bullpen look good. Cox and LaRussa have handled some pretty ugly bullpens at times and been very succesful. In many cases, the names those two guys trot out there on most nights are pretty shocking. How many relievers have you seen leave those 2 situations and been succesful when they left? I can't think of too many.

I've seen Wedge try to stick it out with starters to try and get them through 6-7 innings.....when that hasn't worked, I've also seen him turn to the bullpen in the 6-7 innings.....it just doesn't matter, because in both scenarios, his pitchers just are not performing.


That is what I mean by having a feel. Do you really believe there is anything wrong with these guys in talent? Talent wise they are a pretty sick bullpen, other than Gravedigger and Saursuck. They all throw hard, with good breaking stuff. Maybe they are just being called upon at the wrong time. With Mota starting the 8th the other night, there is no way that should happen. When is the last time Mota pitched, sat for the offense, pitched another inning, then sat, then pitched agasin? This guy is a 1 inning, maybe finish one inning pitch another type of guy. Never should he go back out after sitting 2 different half innings.

And, to me, when you are getting pounded by the opposition, you can't sacrifice outs. You need all the outs you can to keep hitting and having big innings like your opposition is doing to you. Right now, I am only bunting in the 8th/9th inning of a game where we are down up/down 1 or tied.


There is not alot to complain about the offense. There have not been alot of one run games this year for the bunting to really be an issue, but this goes more back to when one run games were killing us.

If you take parts of each of his seasons, every part of the team has faltered at some point. When you see each of those parts falter, and they remain an issue for the whole season, then what exactly is he doing. IMO, last year was a fluke. He got great years out of places nobody expected, and won 93 games. The bullpen was fantastic once everyone got into their roles. I think he got lucky. This year and '04 he was not so lucky and it showed.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri May 12, 2006 10:57 am

Note: Joe Sheehan specifically mentions Eric Wedge as a manager that he can't identify how he makes his team better (Baseball Prospectus premium piece). (One of five or six)
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri May 12, 2006 11:40 am

Buff, does Sheehan elaborate any further on why? Curious what his reasoning is.....not that I agree/disagree or anything, just interested in his thinking here.

Anyway, I hate to use hindsight to grade out Wedge right now with his handling of the pitching currently. He'll always be wrong and we'll always be right since we always have hindsight on our side.

I do give credit to Wedge in that he is trying different things with the pen.....using guys at different times, taking out starters earlier than normal, letting some stick it out, etc. He lacks any creative ability whatsoever usually, and isn't a very "smart" manager....but I do have to say he has surprised me some of late with his trial and error approach with the pitching staff. That kind of approach for a statue like Wedge was unheard of 4-5 weeks ago.

And, right now, I can't complain much about the offense. Sure, I've been vocal about some guys needing to move up/down the order and some guys underperforming (Boone).....but this offense is the best in baseball right now. It is the least of our worries. And, usually, when you have a few guys over-performing like Broussard and Blake, you'll have some others at the other end of the spectrum not performing like Boone. Although, I think it is time to hand him his pink slip.

Fundamentally, I do agree that this team is a mess. They can't bunt, they can't hold runners, they can't throw out runners, they make too many bonehead plays in the field, they continually make baserunning blunders, they can't throw strikes, etc. A ton of that DOES fall on Wedge....and the fundamental aspect is my #1 reason he needs to go. Of course, it does need to be mentioned this is not a "fundamentally sound" team. I mean, Peralta and Michaels are a box of rocks....Belliard undisciplined...Boone sucks....etc. The only tru fundamental player is Sizemore, and even he Ks way too much.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Fri May 12, 2006 12:05 pm

Consigliere wrote:Buff, does Sheehan elaborate any further on why? Curious what his reasoning is.....not that I agree/disagree or anything, just interested in his thinking here.

Oops, mea culpa. Here's the quote, showing I misquoted Sheehan egregiously:

Sheehan wrote:But beyond a few examples, what characteristics do the vast majority of managers have? There’s virtually no innovation coming from the dugout any longer. What does Buddy Bell do that makes him qualified for his job? How does Eric Wedge or Mike Hargrove or Charlie Manuel or Bruce Bochy make the team better, add value to the organization in a way that shows up in the win column?

I don’t mean to single out these guys. My argument isn’t that they’re bad managers, it’s that the standards for what makes a good or bad one aren’t clear beyond, “winning good, losing bad.” That’s not the worst evaluation tactic, but the confounding effects of varying talent levels--I’m looking at you, Mr. Baker--can muddle the issue.
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Unread postby pup » Sun May 14, 2006 2:47 pm

What do you know, Carl Willis walks to the mound, they leave Johnson in, and he gives up a double into the gap. How is someone not ready for as soon as Johnson gives up a hit in the 7th? He is a #5 starter for a reason. He should not get the benefit of the doubt once trouble starts to arise.

Unforutnately, I was very busy this weekend and saw none of games 1 and 2, but this game will give me enough ammo to start up the The Wedge Report. Does anyone know Shapiro's e-mail address?
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue May 16, 2006 12:36 am

Pup wrote:What do you know, Carl Willis walks to the mound, they leave Johnson in, and he gives up a double into the gap. How is someone not ready for as soon as Johnson gives up a hit in the 7th? He is a #5 starter for a reason. He should not get the benefit of the doubt once trouble starts to arise.


So, what's the alternative? Going to the shitty bullpen?

Right now, if you are Eric Wedge, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't when it comes to this pitching staff. Seriously. What does he do....ride someone like Johnson a little while longer and see what happens, or go to the bullpen which has shown it continually comes in and thows gas on the fire?

The man is going into war armed with a cap gun right now.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Tue May 16, 2006 9:52 am

Consigliere wrote:Right now, if you are Eric Wedge, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't when it comes to this pitching staff. Seriously. What does he do....ride someone like Johnson a little while longer and see what happens, or go to the bullpen which has shown it continually comes in and thows gas on the fire?

The man is going into war armed with a cap gun right now.

I don't think that's true any more. With Betancourt back and Cabrera having a string of nice outings in a row, this becomes a group you can define roles on and move forward.

Unless you want to complain about the bullpen against Detroit. That would be an interesting complaint, BTW.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue May 16, 2006 11:13 pm

That Tigers series....we finally get very good pitching overall in the series.....and the offense goes to sleep. :roll:

What the Tigers are currently doing is what the Indians should be doing. Before this season began, I'd have expected the Indians to have their record and them to have ours.....and even us to have close to the success they are having pitching-wise.
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Unread postby rigs » Wed May 17, 2006 10:18 am

Consig
I agree, I emailed Sykes the same thing.
I have to excuse him for not running out to the mound to give the ball to...................................Jason Davis?............................Guillermo Mota?....................................either way Wedge is screwed.
I am not a Wedge apologist, but he is not the reason we are under .500
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Wed May 17, 2006 10:42 am

RIGS wrote:Consig
I agree, I emailed Sykes the same thing.
I have to excuse him for not running out to the mound to give the ball to...................................Jason Davis?............................Guillermo Mota?....................................either way Wedge is screwed.
I am not a Wedge apologist, but he is not the reason we are under .500

Although I agree with part of the sentiment (the pitchers simply must perform better), that excuse fails from this point forward with Betancourt and Cabrera now healthy and productive.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed May 17, 2006 10:55 am

Steve Buffum wrote:Although I agree with part of the sentiment (the pitchers simply must perform better), that excuse fails from this point forward with Betancourt and Cabrera now healthy and productive.
.


Totally agree. I think that the bully might be on its way to getting back on track. Although, our suckiness with LHed relief still concerns me.
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Unread postby pup » Wed May 17, 2006 5:08 pm

There is always a right combination to go with when you have the arms. I'm not the one that went out there and called in Graves, or selected him to be on the roster. I never decided to let Mota work a 3rd inning when he was only decent in the first 2. A manager that has a good feeling for what he has in the bullpen can get more quality innings out of less.

My argument is not if Wedge can manage when everything is going rosy and everyone is performing great. It is the games when the players are not all there and you need to make a choice. Those are the games that Wedge does not earn his keep.

Directly from the article...
What good is a manager if he only gets wins based on having guys play out their ass? If that is the case, why even have a manager?



What a good manager does is get you through the rough spots, and he has shown NO ability to do that. His hob has to be more than running a lineup card out to the umpire and taking a nap.
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Unread postby consigliere » Thu May 18, 2006 2:22 pm

You got that right Buff.

Once again, Cliff solid through 6 (2 runs)....then gives it up in the 7th (3 runs). And, at the same time, we have gone from a 6-2 lead to a 6-5 lead with guys on 3rd and 2nd with 1 out and the Royals still batting.

Cabrera is doing his best to get out of it.....but, this one is on Wedge. You KNOW that Lee struggles in the 7th inning, yet roll him out there again.

2 outs now...Cabrera with 2 Ks.

Oh God....Bell pinch hits Stairs and now Wedge wants to bring in Sauerbeck......we are about to blow the lead. Count on it, Sauerbeck walks or gives up a hit to Stairs.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:55 am

OK. It has been about 6 weeks since I first called for Eric Wedge's head to be served on a platter to some vultures. Since then, the Tribe has gone 16-23. Of the 16 wins, 6 have been against Kansas City, Pittsburgh and the Cubs. Can we please fire him now?
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Unread postby furls » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:15 am

I havent seen an Indians team underachieve like this since the 87 team that you have on your avatar pup.

FIRE HIS ASS, and if he and Shapiro are as joined (I suspect penis to mouth, who's is where is anyone's guess) as it appears, then send Shapiro too.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:34 pm

From the slap in the face dept....

Did Ozzie Guillen really select the manager from the worst fundamental team in baseball as an All Star coach?
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