Did I Mention I hated letting Brandon Phillips go?

[consigliere]

Good God.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/p ... yerId=5031

11 for 29 for a .379 average early on, with 2 HRs and 13 fucking RBIs. Does Ramon Vazquez even have 13 RBIs for his career?

Pardon me while I throw myself on the floor and throw a tantrum. I said it before, and I will say it again, letting BP go was a BIG mistake.

[ACrank]

because it wasn't - his success in Cincy does not mean he would have had that success in Cleveland and, previous history shows, does not figure to be long term....

but i hope he succeeds in Cincy as it increases the chance of the indians getting someone decent in return

[gnati]

but i hope he succeeds in Cincy as it increases the chance of the indians getting someone decent in return

Why is this?

I thought the list of players to choose from has already been determined?

[ACrank]

i've not heard that - all i know is it won't be determined until after June 15th - which is probably meaning someone from their draft last year is being considered

[gnati]

i've not heard that - all i know is it won't be determined until after June 15th - which is probably meaning someone from their draft last year is being considered

couple of thoughts:

1) the draft was june 7-8 of last year. If you are targeting guys from last years draft, the 15th seems like an odd date to pick because only a handful of guys are signed in the first week after the draft, then the rest trickle in throughout June. Unless there is a specific player they want, I would think they would bump that back to June 30 or so.

2) More importantly, this comment from Chris Antonetti...perhaps the players list hasn't been agreed upon, but it is pretty clear if you read between the lines that the player will be shit (a technical term)...

"The Indians have until June 15 to decide if they want cash or a player from the Reds.
"The money has already been decided upon," said Antonetti.
The player?
"It could be a wide range of players," said Antonetti. "It will probably be a younger guy who has a chance to play in the big leagues.""


In other words, the Indians have accepted the fact that whatever money the Reds (who by the way don't like giving away money, so it will not be a large amount) want to give the Tribe is sort of equal in value with whatever player the Indians will get and they will spend the next two months looking at some players and deciding if they want the money instead.

Do you think if these prospects were worth anything, the discussion of cash would even exist?

[pup]

The reason for the June 15 date is if the guy is a "draft and follow" player the Reds took last year. Almost anyone a team drafts is that team's property until a week before the following draft. Teams can draft someone in 2005 and tell them we want to sign you, but would rather you spent a year at either Junior college or play a 4th year at D1. Depending on the date of this year's draft, the drop dead date would probably be around June 1. This would give both teams two weeks to decide on if this particular guy is legit.

[gnati]

The reason for the June 15 date is if the guy is a "draft and follow" player the Reds took last year. Almost anyone a team drafts is that team's property until a week before the following draft. Teams can draft someone in 2005 and tell them we want to sign you, but would rather you spent a year at either Junior college or play a 4th year at D1. Depending on the date of this year's draft, the drop dead date would probably be around June 1. This would give both teams two weeks to decide on if this particular guy is legit.

I am familiar with draft and follow...

Where did you hear that this was the reason for the June 15 date, and more importantly, do you agree or disagree with my reasoning that because the Indians apparantly are willing to potentially just take cash - we really shouldn't waste any more of our valuable time on this earth worrying about the stiff we are going to get back?

[pup]

Maybe I should have said the probable reason. I don't know if that is why or not.

I think you should always take the player over a cash option. You never know what a player develops into in.

[consigliere]

I don't know Gnati....I don't get that feeling from Antonetti and crew the PTBNL is going to be a scrub. IMO, this thing does not carry out until June 15....it'll be resolved sometime by mid-May. I'd be very happy if we got Bergolla back as the PTBNL.....or even if it was Adam Rosales.

[freeper57]

What bothers me about the Philips trade is the refusal of the Indians front office to think outside the box. What about moving Peralta to first and putting Philips at short? Then when Marte comes up, you would have an infield of Marte, Philips, Belliard, and Peralta, which would be a damn sight better than Boone, Peralta, Belliard, and Broussard/Perez.

[pup]

#1 - Then you would have a below average offensive first baseman and a below average offensive shortstop.

#2 - Ryan Garko

Marte, Peralta, Belliard (or fill in the blank), and Garko is what the infield will look like for the near future.

[ACrank]

What bothers me about the Philips trade is the refusal of the Indians front office to think outside the box. What about moving Peralta to first and putting Philips at short? Then when Marte comes up, you would have an infield of Marte, Philips, Belliard, and Peralta, which would be a damn sight better than Boone, Peralta, Belliard, and Broussard/Perez.

Peralta at first? Assuming Peralta the shortstop would hit the same as Peralta the first baseman - does Brandon Phillips (46 abs with Cincy not withstanding) show the ability to hit major league pitching like an average firstbaseman?

At this point i will be happy with the infield of Marte, Peralta, hopefully Bellaird and Garko/Broussard.

[consigliere]

I think Belliard is a goner. No way this team pays him over $5M per on a multi-year deal. I just don't see it.

And, I am starting to think Blake is in the cards at 2B next year. I am not advocating it, but remember he was slotted to be the 2B in 2005 before the Indians lost out on some FAs and decided to bring belliard back (and move Blake to RF instead).

[Steve Buffum]

I think Belliard is a goner. No way this team pays him over $5M per on a multi-year deal. I just don't see it.

And, I am starting to think Blake is in the cards at 2B next year. I am not advocating it, but remember he was slotted to be the 2B in 2005 before the Indians lost out on some FAs and decided to bring belliard back (and move Blake to RF instead).

How about Adam Kennedy? Kendrick is going to Pipp him sooner or later.

[ACrank]

is currently not on the Indians roster

[consigliere]

I think Kennedy will be more than available.....but, could he get $5-6M per like Belliard? A notch below ($4-5M per)? And if so, is Adam Kennedy worth it? Looking into the crystal ball, 2007 and beyond at 2B doesn't look all that great.....unless Shapiro can find another diamond in the rough like he did with Belliard.

[ACrank]

but i was pulling for Dustin Pedroia to be included in the Coco/Marte deal....

(not wanting to reopen the whole thing, lets just say i am of the belief that 2b hasn't looked that hot for this franchise for a while)

[consigliere]

Yeah, 2B (and SS) is a concern in the org.....which is why Crowe is being moved there. In the upcoming 2nd part of the Kline Q&A, he offers some insights on Crowe (hint: he is high on Crowe at 2B).

Anyway, it is a position they will need to address in the draft (about 5 weeks away)....or in any mid or offseason trades.

[Lebowski]

In a preseason thread I started about concern over 2B down the road, I asked about Phillips and Crowe.

Consig, you gave this response on Crowe:

And, from what I have read, Crowe will still be in the OF this year. He worked out at 2B in the instructional leagues only, and won't play 2B again until the instructional leagues after this season. So, at this point, he is not a 2B candidate. Until they officially move him to 2B, he is still an OFer. And, I am not sure he played much 2B at Arizona, if any at all.

So, is he playing OF or 2B this year? Does the loss of Phillips now make him a viable candidate?

[consigliere]

Crowe is playing OF this year....when instructs come (after the season), he'll be moved to 2B. Kline says he probably is the opening day 2B at Akron next year.

[ACrank]

Yeah, 2B (and SS) is a concern in the org.....which is why Crowe is being moved there. In the upcoming 2nd part of the Kline Q&A, he offers some insights on Crowe (hint: he is high on Crowe at 2B).

Anyway, it is a position they will need to address in the draft (about 5 weeks away)....or in any mid or offseason trades.

Would the draft really solve it? Players drafted this year aren't going to be even close to the majors for 4-5 years at least - wouldn't it make more sense just to keep going for best player available and fill the 2b issue with either trades or FA signings? (I can remember one year where the Indians took middle infielders with pop in the second and third rounds - still waiting for Zac Sorenson and Scott Pratt to do anything. And lets not even talk about Micah Shilling, ok?)

[consigliere]

Sure, the draft isn't going to provide much help in the immediate future. But, SS/2B is a big gaping hole in the entire org, so you might as well start somewhere. I'm not saying to go out and select college guys like Jason Donald (SS) or Adam Davis in the 1st or second round (if I recall, we don't even have a 1st rounder). Although, the Kent State product Emmanuel Burriss (SS) is intriguing.....

I'd definitely take BPA (most likely a pitcher as it has been said the top of this draft is lacking in position player talent).....but when we get to rounds 4-6, maybe take a stab at one of the best 2B/SS available.

[ACrank]

Still seems a reach to me - but picking a Shortstop or two is never a bad idea - as the old cliche goes "you build up the middle"....