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turning point

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turning point

Unread postby berardinelli » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:37 am

What is that expression, cutting off your nose to spite your face. I wonder how many times during Wedge's reign has he hung out a player before DFAing so that the fans are on his side. I also wonder who his next scapegoat will be to his incompetent managing. Don't kid yourself, Wedge knew full well Cabrera's stats against the White Sox. That was not the situation you bring him in and leave him in unless you are trying to make a point and justify getting rid of him with the fans on your side. Wouldn't it be ironic if Wedge's coniving that led to this loss ultimately cost the Indians a playoff spot!
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:26 am

I disagree.

It was the 6th inning. You don't bring in your best guys Betancourt, Perez, and Borowski there. So, your choices are Stanford, Lewis, Cabrera, or Mastny.

Seeing how it was the 6th inning, and we were already down 3-4 runs when Cabrera came in, to me it was the PERFECT time to use Cabrera to see what he could do. If you are not going to even pitch him in the 6th inning down 3 runs or so, then why have him on this team? You have to eventually test him out....which they did. It may have cost us a game, but I believe the move pays off long term as Cabrera is about done here now. We should finally have a resolution now.
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Unread postby swerb » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:32 am

No way T. Down three, bases loaded, sixth inning, versus a division rival, in second place in the division by a game ... you don't throw a guy out there to die.

You play to win, try to live to fight another inning, and go to one of your best bullpen guys there. Wedge should have gone to Raffie Perez there.

I just absolutely hate that defeatist type of managing and thinking. Last nights game, as illustrated beautifully by The Prosecutor in another thread, offered several prime examples of why this man drives me insane at times as this teams manager.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:45 am

Rich, I gotta disagree.

The notion you have to go with one of your best guys in the SIXTH inning spells trouble, and is overmanaging if you ask me. I understand this is a 3-man bullpen it seems right now, but you can’t go blowing your good guys in the 6th inning. Besides, we were already down 3 when Cabrera came in. If the score was tied at 5-5 or whatever there, maybe I consider it. I get the game was close, and a crucial moment, but you HAVE to have faith in those middle relief guys.

Besides, it is all hindsight here. If Cabrera doesn’t implode, no one comments on it. Or, if Perez comes in and struggles, people question bringing him in in the 6th inning. Or, better yet, if Perez slams the door there in the 6th and we have to use say Stanford in the 8th for a lefty matchup and he gives up a key hit, then people question that move as well.

Bottom line, you have to have faith in those middle relief guys. You can’t go using your best guys that early in the game.

And, Cabrera had been throwing well his last few outings….last night was a perfect opportunity to test him. I think more good than bad comes from that loss….they now hopefully know it may be time to cut the cord on Cabrera, and as if they did not know already they need to get an arm or two.
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Unread postby The Math God » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:48 am

I agree, Cabrera has been throwing well of late and Wedge has to see what he can do when it isn't mop up time which is what Lewis pitched in.
The kid looked good, I want to see him under pressure
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Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:41 pm

This point can be argued all night. The inherent problem is a lack of guys that can get anyone out. Even a match-up only guy who was effective will help.

The same situation as last night is going to arise several times before the year is out. In my opinion, the bullpen will determine playoffs for this team. They don't get that straightened out, big problems.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:25 pm

No, no Pipe, we got that all squared away with Hernandez and Foulke.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:53 pm

Consigliere wrote:Besides, it is all hindsight here. If Cabrera doesn’t implode, no one comments on it. Or, if Perez comes in and struggles, people question bringing him in in the 6th inning. Or, better yet, if Perez slams the door there in the 6th and we have to use say Stanford in the 8th for a lefty matchup and he gives up a key hit, then people question that move as well.

Bottom line, you have to have faith in those middle relief guys. You can’t go using your best guys that early in the game.

No. No. A thousand times, no.

A pitcher should be used based on the situation. Perez was absolutely the right call there. Had he failed, I would have shrugged, because he has a great track record and I would chalk it up to "one of those things." Fredo had a track record as well, and lived up to it. Actually, I don't even get so upset that Fredo was called in first: he, he's a guy, you need a guy. but to leave him out there that long ... in hindsight, there was only one reason to do that: to force Shapiro to DFA him. "If you leave this man on the roster, I will do this to him and to us." It was cold, caluculating, and cruel.

They DFA'd half the problem.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:58 pm

Buff, I sort of agree with you.

But, I still think going to Cabrera first was the right call. After he was lit up like a Xmas tree the first 4 or so batter he faced, I would have brought in Stanford or Perez. So, I agree with you that we kept him in too long.

But, I still believe putting him in first, seeing how he handles it, was the right choice. We had to find out one way or the other about Cabrera and give him that final shot before DFAing him.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:25 pm

But, I still think going to Cabrera first was the right call. After he was lit up like a Xmas tree the first 4 or so batter he faced, I would have brought in Stanford or Perez.


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Unread postby CP » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:50 pm

Pup wrote:
But, I still think going to Cabrera first was the right call. After he was lit up like a Xmas tree the first 4 or so batter he faced, I would have brought in Stanford or Perez.


Hurry up close the barn door, the horse is already gone.


A few people have hit the nose on the head...

You bring in Perez down 3-2 or maybe down 5-2 to get out of a major jam. Throw Cabrera in the 7th with no one on if you want, or let Lewis pitch an inning in a game we're already losing, but where we aren't being blown out.

Once Cabrera let 4 of his guys score plus whomever Lee left on base, the game was already out of hand.

Bad move no matter how you slice it. If you are trying to stay in the game, you throw the reliever in who can get you out of the situation. Saving Betancourt and Perez for the 7th or 8th inning in a close game when not putting them in makes it anything but a close game is akin to LaRussa sitting Pujols in the All-Star game as a contingency for something that probably isn't going to occur.

Nuclear bomb theory: use 'em before you lose 'em (or before using 'em means nothing because you're already toast.)
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