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Tribe Resigns Hafner

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Tribe Resigns Hafner

Unread postby swerb » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:08 pm

Just got the word from a very good source. Most likely four years. Most likely in the neighborhood of 13-14 million per. Wasn't sure on the exact years or numbers though.

Press conference Thursday.
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Unread postby pup » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:10 pm

Color me shocked, but excited.

Mr. Shapiro saves a little face.

Congrats!

Now get to work on CC. (I can still wish, right?)
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Re: Tribe Resigns Hafner

Unread postby Babrook » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:14 pm

Swerb wrote:Just got the word from a very good source. Most likely four years. Most likely in the neighborhood of 13-14 million per. Wasn't sure on the exact years or numbers though.

Press conference Thursday.


This is the second time in the past week I've heard this =D.

But coming from Swerb...
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Unread postby StewieG » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:15 pm

Call me crazy, but I think you wait on CC to see if the market corrects itself. Because last year, some of those contracts were just unreal. I say you wait until this offseason and see if the market goes back to regular big contracts. Because where the market is at right now, we won't re-sign him. It's just going to be too rich for us.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:20 pm

Great, I think this will immediately help boost attendance by about 3 K per ballgame. Let's see if I'm wrong.

From a baseball perspective, you can't have too much offense, never, no way, no situation.
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Unread postby Babrook » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:20 pm

I'm still optimistic on keeping C.C.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:23 pm

StewieG wrote:Call me crazy, but I think you wait on CC to see if the market corrects itself. Because last year, some of those contracts were just unreal. I say you wait until this offseason and see if the market goes back to regular big contracts. Because where the market is at right now, we won't re-sign him. It's just going to be too rich for us.


Agree on that Stewie. If the value drops then CC's demands will drop, especially when you consider the pitchers that could be free agents at the same time. Santana, Sheets, Lackey, Mulder, Garland, and Peavy. I think there's limited money on the topend and a lot of options. All those guys will get big deals, but I think Santana will be the mega deal of that offseason.
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Unread postby Babrook » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:24 pm

C.C will get the 3rd most, IMO.

Santana, Peavy, CC.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:27 pm

Maybe the market already started to correct itself seeing the contract Buehrle signed. It was a lot less then the Zito deal of this past offseaon.
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Re: Tribe Resigns Hafner

Unread postby BadBecks » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:32 pm

Swerb wrote:Just got the word from a very good source. Most likely four years. Most likely in the neighborhood of 13-14 million per. Wasn't sure on the exact years or numbers though.

Press conference Thursday.




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Unread postby StewieG » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:35 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:Maybe the market already started to correct itself seeing the contract Buehrle signed. It was a lot less then the Zito deal of this past offseaon.


I hope so. The Giants were morons to give Zito that much. Yes, I realize Zito has a Cy Young to his credit, but he hasn't been anything special since 2002. His contract is ridiculous.

Buehrle doesn't have the track record of Cy Youngs, or that one dominant season, but he's put together a really nice career so far, with the exception of last year. So maybe it has started to correct.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:42 pm

Yeah, heard the same thing in regard to Hafner.

This is a very good signing, and PR move all in the same move.

And put me on board as believing we are not out of the running for CC. But, do note, I am not even worrying about it until this time next year.
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Unread postby StewieG » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:45 pm

I think we've got a chance to sign him, but not at $20M a year.
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Unread postby Babrook » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:47 pm

StewieG wrote:I think we've got a chance to sign him, but not at $20M a year.


And I doubt he'll ask that.

I imagine 4 years, 15-18 Million per.
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Unread postby StewieG » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:51 pm

Babrook wrote:
StewieG wrote:I think we've got a chance to sign him, but not at $20M a year.


And I doubt he'll ask that.

I imagine 4 years, 15-18 Million per.


If Zito gets 7 years, averaging $18M per, then if the market stays the same, you better believe CC's going to gun for at least 7/$140M. Don't know if he'd get it, but that's what he'd ask for.
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Unread postby Babrook » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:54 pm

StewieG wrote:
Babrook wrote:
StewieG wrote:I think we've got a chance to sign him, but not at $20M a year.


And I doubt he'll ask that.

I imagine 4 years, 15-18 Million per.


If Zito gets 7 years, averaging $18M per, then if the market stays the same, you better believe CC's going to gun for at least 7/$140M. Don't know if he'd get it, but that's what he'd ask for.


But Zito is kinda having an 'off' year for someone of that money. Teams may be hesitant to offer huge contracts like that.
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Unread postby StewieG » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:03 am

But Zito is kinda having an 'off' year for someone of that money. Teams may be hesitant to offer huge contracts like that.


Exactly. Which is what's going to help the market correct himself. But there has to be more bad contracts (Gary Matthews/$10M per, Zito, JD Drew, Juan Pierre, maybe Alfonso Soriano) signed next year to continue the trend. This is very similar to I think 2000, when guys like Todd Helton, Denny Neagle, Mike Hampton, and people like that signed their team-killer megadeals.

It's a good thing he's not a free agent this year though, and we get to hold onto him for another year before worrying about that.[/i]
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Unread postby BadBecks » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:07 am

Players and agents don't care if the guy who set the market had an "off year" following the signing. All that matters is that the market is set. C.C. is younger, better, and not a junkball pitcher...which is what Zito is.

I think 126 mill. just may be the starting figure...of course someone has to agree to pay that. I think we won't know till Johan signs first though as far as what the 07 market truely is.
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Unread postby StewieG » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:12 am

Players and agents don't care, but teams do. The Red Sox and Yankees though likely won't care. If anyone's going to take him, it'll be one of those teams, I think. We've gotta wait, but we can't let him get out on the open market - especially if one of Santana or Peavy re-signs with their current team. Because then CC becomes one of the undisputed top 2 on the market (all 3 are in the running for top 2, depending on who you ask). And then it becomes a race between the Yankees, Red Sox, and maybe Mets, to see who can out-bid the other. We won't win that war, trust me.
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Unread postby tribetalk » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:28 am

Babrook wrote:I'm still optimistic on keeping C.C.

I agree.

If we can resign
VIC
GRADY
PRONK
WESTBROOK
LEE
PERALTA???
BLAKE???

then I am sure you can find a way to resign CC..... The best thing going for us is he is still on this team next year, and if we can win a title this year, boy I doubt CC turns an offer from us down.
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Unread postby StewieG » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:35 am

OK, here's a hypothetical. Let's say it's right around the trade deadline next year. CC has said privately that he intends to test the market, and is looking for a deal that averages close to $20M per. We're not out of the race, but we're, say, 6 or 7 out of the wild card and behind 3 other teams. So here's my question. In that situation, do you try to trade CC at the deadline? Let's say the Yanks offer Phil Hughes and some other parts. Or you get offered very highly rated 3b AND SS prospects (close to ML ready), plus maybe something else. Do you do it? If not, how far out do we have to be for you to do it, if you do it at all? If you do, how close do we have to be for you to say no?
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:20 am

StewieG wrote:OK, here's a hypothetical. Let's say it's right around the trade deadline next year. CC has said privately that he intends to test the market, and is looking for a deal that averages close to $20M per. We're not out of the race, but we're, say, 6 or 7 out of the wild card and behind 3 other teams. So here's my question. In that situation, do you try to trade CC at the deadline? Let's say the Yanks offer Phil Hughes and some other parts. Or you get offered very highly rated 3b AND SS prospects (close to ML ready), plus maybe something else. Do you do it? If not, how far out do we have to be for you to do it, if you do it at all? If you do, how close do we have to be for you to say no?


I would trade CC in that situation if I got a good offer in return. Problem there is the free agent pitchers can be as much of an issue in trades as in free agency. Minnesota may look to trade Santana. Milwaukee may look to trade Sheets. San Diego might think about trading Peavy. The other ones likely won't be on the trade market, but it'd be a lot harder to trade CC at the deadline if three other top flight pitchers are out there too.

Too bad we didn't re-sign CC when he stated he wanted Roy Oswalt money. That'd be a steal now.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:21 am

INCREDIBLE!

Not to toot my own horn, but about 4 months ago I said that these deals could get done within the current payroll structure and came pretty close on the Westbrook and Hafner numbers:
http://www.swerbsblurbs.com/article_detail.php?id=1473

How's that for a LH bat for the next 4 years!

Also, can we please hold off on the C.C. doom and gloom and enjoy this for a moment?
Why are we incapable of reveling in the present, instead casting our gloomy eye to the future?

For everyone who said that the Indians will NEVER sign their own FA, you can send your apologies to the corner of Carnegie and Ontario.
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Unread postby Babrook » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:49 am

StewieG wrote:Players and agents don't care, but teams do. The Red Sox and Yankees though likely won't care. If anyone's going to take him, it'll be one of those teams, I think. We've gotta wait, but we can't let him get out on the open market - especially if one of Santana or Peavy re-signs with their current team. Because then CC becomes one of the undisputed top 2 on the market (all 3 are in the running for top 2, depending on who you ask). And then it becomes a race between the Yankees, Red Sox, and maybe Mets, to see who can out-bid the other. We won't win that war, trust me.


You're forgetting about the West Coast that also have deep pockets, and get points for being near C.C's home.

We have all of next season to negotiate with C.C. Remember, you guys said that we would NEVER resign Pronk. Shapiro and Dolan know what they have in C.C, and they will sell 4 years of semen, 40 pints of blood, and their left kidney to keep him.
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Unread postby The Math God » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:52 am

With Pronk in the fold it is now time to get CC to sign
Dolan needs to open the vault wide and sign him
It it takes a 5-yer $100 million deal, do it
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Unread postby pup » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:52 am

Since you are not tooting your own horn, I will not return with any snide comments.

How's that for a LH bat for the next 4 years!


Depends. Is he going to hit .260 for the next four years?

Also, can we please hold off on the C.C. doom and gloom and enjoy this for a moment?


I agree. It is still something that can be discussed on the boards though.

Why are we incapable of reveling in the present, instead casting our gloomy eye to the future?


Because of our past.

For everyone who said that the Indians will NEVER sign their own FA, you can send your apologies to the corner of Carnegie and Ontario.


I don't remember saying never, and this is the situation that we can. The guy is hitting more like the project part of his nickname. Is it because of the negotiations? I hope so. He was signable because of his poor first half. If he was hitting .320 with 22 HR and 60 RBI right now, do you honestly believe this gets done this week? Not saying it would not get done in the future with those numbers, but it would have been after the season and for more money.

And I still think they signed the wrong guys. Forget Jake and Pronk and keep your ace. Unless you are going to either 100% still sign CC or never were. But if the combo of these two deals means we can't sign CC it was a bad choice.

Sorry.

BTW, I count this as amy apology even though the people on Carnegie and Ontario probably won't receive it:
Color me shocked, but excited.

Mr. Shapiro saves a little face.

Congrats!
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Unread postby Babrook » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:55 am

Unless they realised that C.C. is a hopeless case and he is going to Bronx/Queens/Boston/Bay Area/LA.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:29 am

Pup wrote:Since you are not tooting your own horn, I will not return with any snide comments.

How's that for a LH bat for the next 4 years!


Depends. Is he going to hit .260 for the next four years?

Also, can we please hold off on the C.C. doom and gloom and enjoy this for a moment?


I agree. It is still something that can be discussed on the boards though.

Why are we incapable of reveling in the present, instead casting our gloomy eye to the future?


Because of our past.

For everyone who said that the Indians will NEVER sign their own FA, you can send your apologies to the corner of Carnegie and Ontario.


I don't remember saying never, and this is the situation that we can. The guy is hitting more like the project part of his nickname. Is it because of the negotiations? I hope so. He was signable because of his poor first half. If he was hitting .320 with 22 HR and 60 RBI right now, do you honestly believe this gets done this week? Not saying it would not get done in the future with those numbers, but it would have been after the season and for more money.

And I still think they signed the wrong guys. Forget Jake and Pronk and keep your ace. Unless you are going to either 100% still sign CC or never were. But if the combo of these two deals means we can't sign CC it was a bad choice.

Sorry.

BTW, I count this as amy apology even though the people on Carnegie and Ontario probably won't receive it:
Color me shocked, but excited.

Mr. Shapiro saves a little face.

Congrats!


Mr. Pup…not surprising that we find ourselves on the different sides of the aisle on Indians’ news, but I am a little surprised at the skepticism that remains after the Westbrook and Hafner signings.

I suppose that skepticism is earned by our past, but who’s to say that we won’t sign C.C.? We do still have a full year and a half to do so and offer him a great chance to be “on a winner”.
Even if we don’t lock him up, the strength of the organization is the depth and quality of starting pitching, not impact bats.

I’m also a little surprised at how quickly there’s been a turnaround on Hafner, who is still on pace for over 100 RBI (you have to get over your reliance on BA, and start looking at OBP and OPS as measures of a player’s worth) and will anchor the lineup for the foreseeable future.

There is certainly a contingent of Indians’ fans who share your views, who will remain unsatisfied until the WS pennant is flying over the Jake, and that is certainly justifiable.

I guess that I prefer to look at the current team and the players that Dolan and Shapiro have locked up as an emerging core of talent (Grady, Victor, Peralta, Hafner, Westbrook, Lee) with more talent en route(Miller, Lofgren, etc.), rather than focusing on the bit players that can be so frustrating.

Perhaps we should form two camps of Tribe fans called the Shapiromaniacs (I’ll wear the captain’s hat) and the Off the Marks (I believe that you can lead that brigade).
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:11 am

The DiaTriber wrote:Also, can we please hold off on the C.C. doom and gloom and enjoy this for a moment?
Why are we incapable of reveling in the present, instead casting our gloomy eye to the future?


I concur 110%.

We get news that Westbrook is resigning....and immediately people start worrying about us being able to sign Hafner and CC.

Now, we get news that it looks like Hafner will be resigned, and now instead of enjoying this huge news, all the talk will shift to CC and how he isn't resignable or whatever.

I get the whole "1948, 1964, never" thing.....but because we are so desparate and uptight to win a championship, are we not spending enought time to see the scenery and enjoy some of these teams and players, instead of having such tunnel-vision with eyes set on a pass/fail approach for a championship?

I don't know if we will sign CC or not. The per year dollars are not the problem, it will be the 5-7 years he commands. We'd probably pony up and pay him $20M per on a 2-3 year deal.....but not on a 6-7 year deal. But, I am not worried about it. I mean, the guy is here the rest of this year AND NEXT YEAR. Let's worry about pending FA at this time next year. I mean, Sizemore hits FA in 5 years....should we start worrying about that too? :mrgreen:
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Unread postby ArtGold » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:53 am

Considering that I thought we would sign neither Hafner nor Westbrook, I'm holding off on the Sabathia discussion. Maybe the Indians have decided to go in the direction of being more competitive in retaining their players, and maybe Hernandez and Nixon convinced them of the wisdom of retention.

Assuming he has no injury, I think that the signing will free up Hafner's mind, and he will still get a 35 HR/110 RBI season this year, with a .280 or so BA.
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Unread postby swerb » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:55 pm

If you would have asked me before the season if I would have been happy had the team inked Jake and Pronk, but not CC ... I would have been happy.

So Im not going to be hypocrytical and play the "we're never gonna sign CC now" card.

In addition to both deals representing pretty decent value for the team, I think the Indians are starting to realize that they have to make a show of good faith to the fan base, many of whom resent the ownership group from taking the team from top 5 in payroll to bottom 5. The team is 31-12 at home, and 25th in MLB in attendance.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:56 pm

Swerb wrote:In addition to both deals representing pretty decent value for the team, I think the Indians are starting to realize that they have to make a show of good faith to the fan base, many of whom resent the ownership group from taking the team from top 5 in payroll to bottom 5. The team is 31-12 at home, and 25th in MLB in attendance.

Okay, so ... does this count?
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Unread postby captain_wahoo » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:02 pm

Supposedly, CC's agent is looking for a 7 year 19 million per year deal.
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Unread postby swerb » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:19 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:
Swerb wrote:In addition to both deals representing pretty decent value for the team, I think the Indians are starting to realize that they have to make a show of good faith to the fan base, many of whom resent the ownership group from taking the team from top 5 in payroll to bottom 5. The team is 31-12 at home, and 25th in MLB in attendance.

Okay, so ... does this count?

That's what I'm saying Buff. They've changed my opinion.
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Unread postby tribefan333 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:23 pm

Swerb wrote:In addition to both deals representing pretty decent value for the team, I think the Indians are starting to realize that they have to make a show of good faith to the fan base, many of whom resent the ownership group from taking the team from top 5 in payroll to bottom 5. The team is 31-12 at home, and 25th in MLB in attendance.


Resigning CC would do that....
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Unread postby gumby30 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:42 pm

The only way they pay CC that money is if the fans start going to games. We are 25th in atendence and are in contention for a division crown. Thats a joke. Houston and baltimore are in the top 15 and there teams are terrible.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:03 pm

StewieG wrote:Call me crazy, but I think you wait on CC to see if the market corrects itself. Because last year, some of those contracts were just unreal. I say you wait until this offseason and see if the market goes back to regular big contracts. Because where the market is at right now, we won't re-sign him. It's just going to be too rich for us.


At the beginning of the season quite a few insiders were saying that the baseball market was going to remain wide open for the next 3 years (counting this one) based on the numbers from the bargaining agreement. Things COULD change I suppose, but what was inferred was that there was a ton of money available to be spent. Which, would lead me to believe someone will pay an outrageous amount. Maybe a hope is that that person backs up the truck for Santana instead, but who knows.

My whole take on it is, good job on inking Pronk. They can't let the Sabathia deal interrupt other progress. I still think he'll sign a record breaker somewhere else.
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Unread postby Eckersley » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:17 pm

Going in to this year, I figured we would sign 1 of Jake, Pronk & CC & that the other 2 would be traded or go the FA route.

I'm elated that we may have signed 2 of the 3. Props to the Dolans.

I have faith in Shapiro that if he sees there is no way to extend CC this winter, that he will shop him for the best return.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:47 pm

As long as we're talking C.C. in this thread, how about his quote and the "same agent factor" from the story on the Tribe site:
http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070710&content_id=2079916&vkey=news_cle&fext=.jsp&c_id=cle
"It would be huge [if a deal is reached]," Tribe ace C.C. Sabathia said. "I would be happy. I would definitely take that as a good sign about getting something done with me. Everybody wants to stay. The core of this team has been together for a long time. We've been through a lot together, and we want to bring a championship to Cleveland together."

Sabathia, who would also be eligible for free agency after the '08 season, is also represented by Parker. Talks about a Sabathia extension were broken off during Spring Training, and Parker said they have not picked up since.

"That's not something that's been a current topic right now," Parker said.


Could be lip service, but it works for me.
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Unread postby FUDU » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:47 pm

Resign him or don't resign him, right now all I want is the dude to hit about 30 points higher for the rest of the season.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:01 pm

If CC wants to stay and wants to not worry about injury impacting his financial future then he'll sign an extension if the Indians offer him something he deems as fair. Generally extensions are not "fair market value" because there's no real market for the player at that moment.

There are positives and negatives to an extension. There's always the chance that you could have made more. Then again, there's the chance that you could have gotten injured. An extension gives you a huge sum of guaranteed money a year ahead of time. A four year deal would make CC a free agent when he's 30 - hardly an old man as a pitcher.

I think it's going to depend on how much the Dolan's offer. I'm not sure they'd jump right out with the four years/$80M offer, but I think Sabathia would jump all over that. The Tribe would definitely not offer a seven year deal. They'll top out at five and not go beyond that, even for a young guy like CC.
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Unread postby Hoover » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:31 pm

FoxSports makes it official--

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7013908
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Unread postby Hi Oktane » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:10 pm

Hoover wrote:FoxSports makes it official--

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7013908


Nice job, Shap!
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Unread postby swerb » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:28 pm

Allegedly, 13 million over four years (4/52) is what Haf turned down this off-season.

By playing hardball, an despite a below average first half, he got himself another 5 million clams over the 4 year term of the extension.
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Unread postby Babrook » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:29 pm

MLB.com is also reporting it.
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Unread postby Hi Oktane » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:39 pm

Swerb wrote:Allegedly, 13 million over four years (4/52) is what Haf turned down this off-season.

By playing hardball, an despite a below average first half, he got himself another 5 million clams over the 4 year term of the extension.


I'm guessing Shapiro would have paid it then had Hafner's agent countered with 4/57 in the off-season. (Maybe then we wouldn't have had to endure the slump?.)

In any event, one of the excuses for Hafners' struggles is behind us. Hopefully, now, he can start mashing again. If not, his wife better be looking over her shoulder. :roll :roll:

P.S. Big-ups to Swerb for breaking this one. We saw it here first! :salut:
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Unread postby Tribefan24 » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:13 am

i know a lot of ppl think CC will test the market and wont be back after next season


from everything he has said... he wants to come back and has stated that he wants to keep the core together... including himself

call me optimistic but i think CC stays with the tribe after 08 ... we are gonna have to pay him pretty darn well (17-20 million a yr) something tells me we get it done.



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Unread postby noles1 » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:00 am

My understanding of the $57 million is actually that this year and next year he will be paid out an additional $3.75MM and $4.75MM to cut into the $57 million so essentially his extension for the 4 years is $49.5MM.

Therefore he's making approx. $12.5MM per season which I think is good value for what he can offer. Now it's just a matter of Pronk heating up and carrying this team.

I've also heard that a rib injury has bothered him from the onset of the season and the last 3 weeks it was starting to feel better and everyone thinks he is on the verge of a big second half. Hopefully that's right because I'd love to see Pronk hitch a saddle up and put us on his back for a stretch.

I know I'll be in the crowd on my feet before the first at-bat giving Pronk the ovation he deserves.
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Unread postby Goozer » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:16 am

I think it's going to depend on how much the Dolan's offer. I'm not sure they'd jump right out with the four years/$80M offer, but I think Sabathia would jump all over that.


CC would be insane for jumping all over an $80m offer. That's more than a 50% discount to Zito's total dollars. CC is younger. Throws harder. And has a better health history than Zito. I don't want to hear arguments about the 2008 FA market being a buyer's market either. 28 YO, Cy-Young caliber lefties don't hit the market often and when they do you never see the word "discount" in the press release.

It's going to take Hafner+Westbrooks total package plus about 40% to get it done. Personally, I'd be shocked if he's not back in the Bay area come 2009. If you don't believe me, google his new pad in Cali.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:31 am

Goozer wrote:CC would be insane for jumping all over an $80m offer. That's more than a 50% discount to Zito's total dollars.

Yeah, but if he signed a 4-year deal, he'd be a free agent again at age 30. If he signs a 7-year deal, he'll be 33. (Could be 31 and 34, I am not clear on whether the extension would cover 2008 or not. Same basic argument.) So if he's looking to maximize dollars over the course of his entire career, I'd bet he could get a better deal in 2011/2 at age 30/31 than he could in 2014/5 at age 33/34. I think Deal A1 + Deal A2 would add up to more than Deal B1 + Deal B2.

At least, that's my sales pitch. And I actually believe it, so it's easier to pitch. Since it's not my money on either side, I haven't invested a lot of effort in testing its efficacy.
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